Topic: MC 16 - Please leave my "mute" ALONE!! (Read 5157 times)

avpman · « **on:** June 11, 2011, 05:58:45 pm »

As soon as MC-16 loads it un-mutes my pc/laptop if they have been muted. The ability to mute/un-mute is already in MC. Please let the user decide if he wants his/her pc muted or not! Simply loading a program (any program) should not alter a users personal settings. It's un-cool and intrusive.

PLEASE LEAVE MY MUTE ALONE! (raising my voice in case you're mute).

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2011, 06:10:13 pm »

There are some startup volume settings you could use.

avpman · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2011, 06:57:04 pm »

Quote from: JimH on June 11, 2011, 06:10:13 pm

There are some startup volume settings you could use.

Agreed. But I still think MC (or any other program) should not alter a users personal settings when it loads itself. In MC's case, at least until the user hits play.

(a former software developer)

edbro · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2011, 07:45:23 pm »

Quote from: avpman on June 11, 2011, 05:58:45 pm

PLEASE LEAVE MY MUTE ALONE! (raising my voice in case you're mute).

I complained about the same thing years ago.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54827.0
Others complained back in 08
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=48651.0

There are times when I want to look at a video without waking the house. If I have my system muted, it's for a reason.

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2011, 08:24:21 pm »

The flip side of this is a less experienced user setting mute on, closing, then reopening and not understanding why there is no sound.

In my opinion, you, as an experienced user, can cope with this.

Osho · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2011, 10:45:08 pm »

I agree - MC shouldn't mess with the mute IMHO. Please please fix?

Osho

justsomeguy · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2011, 03:53:07 am »

I agree it should be changed. If a user isn't experienced enough to know if their sound is muted they probably won't be using MC to begin with.

JimH · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2011, 06:58:36 am »

This won't be changed.

avpman · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2011, 08:13:38 am »

Good software development practices would dictate that this be an option and ship the product with the new option disabled so as not to alter a users personal settings.

So compromise - make it an option. However, in this circumstance, to appease your developers, then ship the product with the feature ON. Let those of us who don't want our personal settings changed turn it off.

In my twenty-five years as a software developer AND technical support director I have learned that users overwhelmingly dislike programs messing with their personal user settings. In almost every case where our developers thought that they "were doing the users a favor" our users complained. The developers incorrectly assumed the user was too stupid to do it themselves. For example if we authored a program and our developers felt that that they should alter the users personal screen brightness level so the user could see the screen "better" when our program was loaded we would have been flooded with support calls.

If an inexperienced user doesn't realize why there is no sound coming from a sound producing program, then they probably wouldn't be using MC in the first place. If the user intentionally puts his/her Mute on then they want it that way - not your way.

I mean c'mon guys it's not like users are clogging up your (non-existent) tech support lines because there is no sound coming from MC because their mute on.

But you DO have users seriously complaining here that they don't want their personal settings messed with.

avpman · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2011, 08:16:18 am »

Quote from: JimH on June 11, 2011, 08:24:21 pm

The flip side of this is a less experienced user setting mute on, closing, then reopening and not understanding why there is no sound.

In my opinion, you, as an experienced user, can cope with this.

You've effectively just told this user - "You know how to deal with it - get over it". Not cool, Jim. Respectfully, in my opinion, it's not your opinion here that counts - it's the customer's. At our company, the slogan that our techs & developers are required to live by is "Customer First.

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2011, 10:04:30 am »

Sure. I can understand you may not agree or accept it, but we can't make every user happy.

Alexx · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2011, 10:16:32 am »

Quote from: JimH on June 12, 2011, 10:04:30 am

but we can't make every user happy.

However, you do a pretty good job of this though, all things considered. I'm happy!

avpman · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2011, 10:34:23 am »

Quote from: JimH on June 12, 2011, 10:04:30 am

Sure. I can understand you may not agree or accept it, but we can't make every user happy.

When I was in development (gawd - I'm sorry it sounds like "Up North we did it this way") we balanced the impact of a "feature" against the number of users affected. Sometimes only a hand full of users were affected. But to them the issue was significant enough that we made the change. So this isn't about making every user happy. No company can be expected to do that. It's about satisfying those that feel significantly impacted.

The reasons detailed by the many users here who have requested the change have been valid, logical, and significant to them. Wouldn't it be just a few lines of code to add a setting in the Startup Options - "UnMute PC when MC Loads" ?

Perhaps we'll each send you a pizza when it's implemented.

Just something to think about.

edbro · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2011, 11:05:54 am »

Quote from: JimH on June 12, 2011, 10:04:30 am

but we can't make every user happy.

Sure you can. Have it default to the current behavior but have an option that an experienced user can choose to override this presumptuous behavior. The inexperienced user you are worried about wouldn't even see it. Now, everybody's happy.

MrC · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2011, 11:23:00 am »

Quote from: edbro on June 12, 2011, 11:05:54 am

Sure you can. ... Now, everybody's happy.

...except those users who are overwhelmed with the sea of options.
...except those users who are frustrated that all the options are not documented as they'd like.
...except those users who want feature X implemented before this feature Y.
...except those users who... ... ...

edbro · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2011, 11:42:43 am »

Quote from: MrC on June 12, 2011, 11:23:00 am

...except those users who are overwhelmed with the sea of options.

That's why I said make it default to the current behavior.

avpman · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2011, 08:30:08 am »

After reading the initial threads http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54827.0 and http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=48651.0 in which numerous users pleaded to have this removed or optioned, for the life of me I couldn't figure out why JimH is so adamant about leaving it as is. Until I came across this post:

--------------------------------------
Quote from: Doof on April 02, 2009, 06:57:29 am to JimH
There was an immediate backlash against it, as evidenced by this thread which was started the same day, in which you even said:
-----
Reply From Jim H.
"I agree. Who suggested this change?"
I was joking. I had suggested it.
---------------------------------------

Jim- Numerous users have begged to have this feature removed or at least optioned. I'm going to tread lightly here and with the utmost respect - but please consider the possibility that maybe you're taking the user's rejection of the feature personally. Please take a step back and listen to us, your customers. There is almost a three year history of posts from customers begging to have this changed. The rejection of this feature by us users has been continuing from it's first introduction in 2008. Clearly it continues to remain an unwanted feature as many users have detailed various scenarios where the feature is intrusive to them. Three years of pleading and more and more customers expressing rejection of the feature. Isn't that sufficient enough to make this small but significant change for your customers?

Respectfully.

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2011, 09:36:46 am »

Quote from: avpman on June 13, 2011, 08:30:08 am

... Please take a step back and listen to us, your customers.

I am listening. I replied 4 times above during my weekend.

JRiver must make the decisions about what we do. We listen, but we don't obey your wishes. We set our own agenda. Occasionally that may mean that you don't get what you want or argue for. Please accept this.

avpman · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2011, 09:47:54 am »

Quote from: JimH on June 13, 2011, 09:36:46 am

I am listening. I replied 4 times above during my weekend.

JRiver must make the decisions about what we do. We listen, but we don't obey your wishes. We set our own agenda. Occasionally that may mean that you don't get what you want or argue for. Please accept this.

Ok. Obviously we have to accept what you guys decide. But a three year history of detailed complaints is a rather compelling case for considering this in your agenda for the product. You are listening but you're not "hearing" us.

I've made my case the best I can. I'm putting down my torch. Maybe someone else will pick it up.

drmimosa · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2011, 10:23:58 am »

Quote from: avpman on June 11, 2011, 05:58:45 pm

As soon as MC-16 loads it un-mutes my pc/laptop if they have been muted.

I'm new 'round here, but have certainly been "learning the ropes" over the past year.

For what's its worth, my MC setup doesn't seem to unmute the Win7 system audio by default on startup. I use a USB audio output with WASPI - Event Style, and have enabled programs to take exclusive command of the audio device under Win7 settings...maybe this is why.

Or perhaps this is a bug

.

mojave · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2011, 11:01:14 am »

If you go to Tools > Options > Startup > Windows Startup > and have Media Server run on Window Startup, then your volume will not be unmuted each time you run MC.

Media Server has hardly any overhead and there is no problem running it even if you don't need it.

MrC · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2011, 11:47:24 am »

Quote from: avpman on June 13, 2011, 09:47:54 am

...But a three year history of detailed complaints is a rather compelling case for considering this in your agenda for the product. You are listening but you're not "hearing" us.

I'll use your quote, but it is not my intention to single you out, in making a point.

This argument is invalid because it includes a self-selected subset of the data and presumed criteria, and assumes that the For case is in the minority.

What you don't have is the compete data set, and the weight factors, either because it is not available to you, or because you haven't read every single posting on all public forums where MC is in use.

avpman · « **Reply #22 on:** June 13, 2011, 12:24:07 pm »

Ok then I should have said "based on the comments in these threads http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54827.0 and http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=48651.0 and the current thread." ...

However you want to phrase it or challenge my semantics there are considerable/many/a group/a bunch/a gaggle/a lot/a number of users who are unhappy with this feature and have been expressing their specific reasons since it was introduced three years ago (based on the threads above and this one).

However you want to parse it out, we exist, we're your customers, the feature is unwanted by us and we're only asking/pleading that you kindly give us a way to disable it. Alternately, put it back to they way it was when it was very first introduced in 13.0.59 - "Starting playback will clear the mute state of the player". Although, that's not going to help the guy that just wants to view movies without sound.

MrC · « **Reply #23 on:** June 13, 2011, 12:46:55 pm »

Quote from: avpman on June 13, 2011, 12:24:07 pm

Ok then I should have said "based on the comments in these threads http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54827.0 and http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=48651.0 and the current thread." ...

However you want to phrase it or challenge my semantics there are considerable/many/a group/a bunch/a gaggle/a lot/a number of users who are unhappy with this feature and have been expressing their specific reasons since it was introduced three years ago (based on the threads above and this one).

However you want to parse it out, we exist, we're your customers, the feature is unwanted by us and we're only asking/pleading that you kindly give us a way to disable it.

Again, nothing personal. And it isn't a phrasing, terminology, or semantics thing. Its about fallacies in logic when trying to make a logical argument.

Its a Biased Sample thing:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/biased-sample.html

Its an Appeal to Popularity thing:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

Its a Hasty Generalization thing:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

I'm not w/JRiver, just a user like you. But I can state with certainty, they *hear* you. Rather than being deaf, they made a decision in which you and some others disagree.

avpman · « **Reply #24 on:** June 13, 2011, 01:00:33 pm »

I wonder if these principles were applied when the decision was made to include the feature? I don't see a lot of posts in the forums where users were asking for MC to automatically un-mute the player. All I saw documented was that the idea to do so came from JimH.

I appreciate the time you and Jim have given this issue. You've made it clear that JR disagrees with the people who are using their product and who are negatively affected by the feature.

As I said before - I lay down my torch.

audunth · « **Reply #25 on:** June 15, 2011, 05:22:42 am »

Reading this thread, I just can't understand what's the problem with making a behaviour like this an option. MC already have 1000 different settings, so a user who wants something simple without a lot of options to set isn't going to use MC at all.

You already have some volume options under Startup - so why not just put an option for un-mute: when MC starts/when playback starts/disabled? It just makes no sense to me, especially considering how great JRiver usually is at listening to us and adding new options for almost every new version

For the record, I myself have not been a "victim" of this un-muting, since if I don't want sound I just don't turn on my amp, and I can just use the mute featore on the amp. But I can see if I had the PC connected directly to a power amp that's always on (no remote stacked in a cabinet), it could be an issue.

I guess if an option doesn't become available, you'll have to just set MC to always start up at 0% volume. If MC is set to control system volue, this would also stop Windows from making any unwanted sound.

avpman · « **Reply #26 on:** June 15, 2011, 08:25:00 am »

Quote from: audunth on June 15, 2011, 05:22:42 am

Reading this thread, I just can't understand what's the problem with making a behaviour like this an option. MC already have 1000 different settings, so a user who wants something simple without a lot of options to set isn't going to use MC at all.

You already have some volume options under Startup - so why not just put an option for un-mute: when MC starts/when playback starts/disabled? It just makes no sense to me, especially considering how great JRiver usually is at listening to us and adding new options for almost every new version

For the record, I myself have not been a "victim" of this un-muting, since if I don't want sound I just don't turn on my amp, and I can just use the mute featore on the amp. But I can see if I had the PC connected directly to a power amp that's always on (no remote stacked in a cabinet), it could be an issue.

I guess if an option doesn't become available, you'll have to just set MC to always start up at 0% volume. If MC is set to control system volume, this would also stop Windows from making any unwanted sound.

Thank you - exactly my point. I'm still scratching my head wondering why they are so resistant this. Maybe if more people continue to complain...

avpman · « **Reply #27 on:** August 23, 2011, 09:55:39 pm »

Not intending to start another argument over this issue. But I'm really beginning to HATE this "feature." The other evening I opened MC on our home theater system to view PHOTOS and MC unnecessarily un-muted the volume. As luck would have it a couple of background programs (mail, etc) accessed the sound card (which I had intentionally muted because family was sleeping) and the sounds from the HTC PC woke the baby. I had to endure (another) thrashing from the spouse "for always making noise at night". Which then required an explanation on my part of "Honey, it's not me doing it. It's this @*#$% program!" To which the spouse, not unexpectedly, replied "Yeah right."

This "feature" is so freakin un-cool.

PLEASE reconsider (begging on my knees) adding an option to disable this "feature".

rick.ca · « **Reply #28 on:** August 23, 2011, 10:43:26 pm »

Considering this suggestion is functionally equivalent to the option requested...

Quote from: mojave on June 13, 2011, 11:01:14 am

If you go to Tools > Options > Startup > Windows Startup > and have Media Server run on Window Startup, then your volume will not be unmuted each time you run MC. Media Server has hardly any overhead and there is no problem running it even if you don't need it.

...it would seem the spouse has a good grasp of the situation.

Matt · « **Reply #29 on:** August 24, 2011, 10:37:58 am »

In 16.0.159 (and newer):
Changed: The mute state of a zone will not be cleared on startup if "Options > Startup > Optimize volume for best sound quality" is not checked.

avpman · « **Reply #30 on:** August 24, 2011, 11:47:02 am »

Quote from: Matt on August 24, 2011, 10:37:58 am

In 16.0.159 (and newer):
Changed: The mute state of a zone will not be cleared on startup if "Options > Startup > Optimize volume for best sound quality" is not checked.

I don't see 159 posted yet. Did you mean 156?
Thanks!

MrC · « **Reply #31 on:** August 24, 2011, 11:54:13 am »

Soon to come...

Jaguu · « **Reply #32 on:** August 24, 2011, 12:33:57 pm »

Just wanted to give my 2 cents about the myth of the "the unexperienced user?" Who is the unexperienced user? Can we really say that users nowadays are unexperienced with computers? They have been exposed to technical gadgets (from radio, tv, recorders, pc, audio systems, video systems, mobile phones, smart phones etc.) for the last 40 or 60 years.
Are the kids unexperienced? Are adult males and females in the working life unexperienced? Are elderly people unexperienced? There are people that never touch a computer, so those will never buy software. But all the others? In my personal network there is no person (even women up to the age of 70) who do not know how to deal with a pc and play music. I think everybody knows from experience, that if there is no sound, they better check if volume has been turned on.

So, where are today's unexperienced users???

avpman · « **Reply #33 on:** August 24, 2011, 12:56:26 pm »

Hopefully this is a "mute" (moot) point since Matt posted his explanation of how 159 will operate. Happy me, happy spouse and everyone else who's been annoyed with MC for messing with the mute "feature".

fitbrit · « **Reply #34 on:** August 25, 2011, 02:10:41 am »

I'm glad it's working out for you. I just bypass this and use mute/low volume on my AV receiver at night. When the release becomes public, hopefully all will be well for all.

avpman · « **Reply #35 on:** August 27, 2011, 08:17:43 am »

Finally in build 159: #4. Changed: The mute state of a zone will not be cleared on startup if "Options > Startup > Optimize volume for best sound quality" is not checked.

THANK YOU!

I'm sure I echo the feelings of others that have been annoyed for so long by the previous behavior.

audunth · « **Reply #36 on:** September 12, 2011, 12:29:34 pm »

Quote from: Jaguu on August 24, 2011, 12:33:57 pm

Just wanted to give my 2 cents about the myth of the "the unexperienced user?" Who is the unexperienced user? Can we really say that users nowadays are unexperienced with computers? They have been exposed to technical gadgets (from radio, tv, recorders, pc, audio systems, video systems, mobile phones, smart phones etc.) for the last 40 or 60 years.
Are the kids unexperienced? Are adult males and females in the working life unexperienced? Are elderly people unexperienced? There are people that never touch a computer, so those will never buy software. But all the others? In my personal network there is no person (even women up to the age of 70) who do not know how to deal with a pc and play music. I think everybody knows from experience, that if there is no sound, they better check if volume has been turned on.

So, where are today's unexperienced users???

Great point! They are using Macs.

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Author Topic: MC 16 - Please leave my "mute" ALONE!! (Read 5157 times)