Topic: Changing to a new PC music server (Read 4700 times)

fredster1 · « **on:** October 18, 2011, 08:31:33 am »

Hi all,
I am a recent user of PC based music and have copied all my CDs to WAV files in J River. I have now invested in a whole new silent machine and need to copy over all my music. During ripping I stored the files on an external hard drive in the hope I could just plug that into the new machine and carry on as before. However the new PC has none of the details of artsist, albums tracks or art. Is there a way I can clone the old PC onto the new one ?

Thanks

mbagge · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2011, 08:47:50 am »

I think the best solution for you in the long run, will be to store your music in some kind of tag'able file format. Ex. .mp3, .flac ...

Then all information needed by MCs database can be imported automatically. Otherwise you will have to create all this info by hand. You can get a little help if you stored the .waw files in meaningful directory names.

Actually MC will rip your Cd's perfectly to any file type you choose, lossless as well as lossy compressed .mp3 files. It will even look up all relevant info for you and tag the files accordingly.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2011, 09:09:57 am »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 18, 2011, 08:31:33 am

However the new PC has none of the details of artsist, albums tracks or art. Is there a way I can clone the old PC onto the new one ?

Unfortunately - WAV is probably the worst choice you could have made - not soundwise (which is excellent) but metadata wise. You need to move everything to a lossless format with full support for all your metadata. I would recommend FLAC across the board and get tagging.

Without actual embedded tag data on every file - you are going to have a real time of it trying to maintain any kind of organization - especially when moving things around and for MC's internal library/db. It uses all of this tag info to keep track of everything.

VP

fredster1 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:44:47 am »

Oh !

I chose WAV as it was the least lossy, sound quality is my main aim. So am I really looking at re-ripping all my CDs onto the new PC if I want to keep WAV. I guess that means I dont really have a back up either, as I copied all the files to a spare external HD as back up, but in this WAV format they are no use to me either.

So within MC the album and art etc I can see are not part of the WAV files at all. Can I convert my WAV files on the old PC to flac and would I then be able to transfer all the music and its information to my new PC ?

Am I not loosing sound quality though ?

JustinChase · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:52:19 am »

It sounds like your current library has the tag/metadata for your wav files already.

if this is correct, you can use MC16 to convert the format to one of the lossless formats. I use .ape, which is the lossless format created by the main developer of JRMC16. Many people use .flac because it's more widely accepted.

either choice is completely lossless, and will give you the exact same sound output as your wav files, but at about 1/2 the size on the disk and will allow full tagging.

if you use the convert function in MC16, any tag information that currently exists will be written to the new files, making it show up in your new machine for you.

good luck

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2011, 10:56:19 am »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 18, 2011, 10:44:47 am

I chose WAV as it was the least lossy, sound quality is my main aim. So am I really looking at re-ripping all my CDs onto the new PC if I want to keep WAV.

I guess that means I dont really have a back up either, as I copied all the files to a spare external HD as back up, but in this WAV format they are no use to me either.

So within MC the album and art etc I can see are not part of the WAV files at all. Can I convert my WAV files on the old PC to flac and would I then be able to transfer all the music and its information to my new PC ? Am I not loosing sound quality though ?

FLAC is totally lossless and has the most support out there amongst software and hardware. It is very robust in the tagging department and is my first and only choice for lossless music. Think of it as your wav file wrapped in a nice container along with all your metadata.

In your sitch - I would first convert all your wavs to FLAC and properly tag each and every file. There are many excellent products out there to do the conversion. I use EZCD Extractor Pro and dbPowerAmp for this kind of work. MC can handle all the tagging (in addition to EZCD or dbPowerAmp) once with the FLAC files have been prepped.

NOTE: If - as Justin has mentioned - your current MC library (with the wavs) has actual valid metadata - then stay right inside MC and use it to convert to FLAC.

After everything is properly converted to FLAC - make a complete extra backup of all the newly created FLAC files...so you have a "play" copy and an "archive" copy.

Your Play copy is for general day to day usage...the archive copy should be made to a new separate external drive and stored away from all computers or even offsite.

Remember - nothing is really backed up until it's exists in two places. Three is even better.

VP

JimH · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2011, 11:03:09 am »

WAV is not a great choice since tagging standards for it are not widely implemented.

This link may be useful:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Moving_Files

mbagge · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2011, 12:57:21 pm »

I have done this exercise more than once, I chose a lossy format and regretted it later.
I find re-ripping faster than tagging again.

If you are into the hi-fi department, there are a couple of other things to consider.

When you rip, make sure that you choose 'secure rip' otherwise the filesystem on the CD (Redbook) can play tricks on you.
Choose a lossless format (already discussed).
Connection type to your amp. Analog, s/pdif, hdmi, dlna. My favorite is dlna because it bypasses all the audio components in the OS.
Where is digital - analog conversion taking place. Maybe a separate high quality d/a converter is available.
And last but not least, all the traditional virtues in a hi-fi setup. Lots of watts and quality speakers.

Happy listening
Michael

fredster1 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2011, 03:51:03 pm »

Thanks all,

It looks like I have to go down the route of flac. I just cannot get my head around this business of flac sounds as good as WAV, if the file size is smaller then there is less info thus it cannot sound as good. i am struggling to come to terms with flac is capable of sounding as good as WAV if it has less info to work with. Ive been thru all this with analogue v CD !

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2011, 03:59:18 pm »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 18, 2011, 03:51:03 pm

It looks like I have to go down the route of flac. I just cannot get my head around this business of flac sounds as good as WAV, if the file size is smaller then there is less info thus it cannot sound as good. i am struggling to come to terms with flac is capable of sounding as good as WAV if it has less info to work with. Ive been thru all this with analogue v CD !

Trust me - FLAC is identical to the original wav. It is simply a container that "expands" to play back your "wav" when called upon. That it is compressed only matters for storage concerns - certainly not for sound concerns. I have done countless null tests etc between wav and flac etc etc through the years - and they are all bit identical.

Lossless means lossless so no worries

VP

MrC · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2011, 04:09:43 pm »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 18, 2011, 03:51:03 pm

...I just cannot get my head around this business of flac sounds as good as WAV, if the file size is smaller then there is less info thus it cannot sound as good. i am struggling to come to terms with flac is capable of sounding as good as WAV if it has less info to work with.

The compressed files, which having fewer bytes, do not carry less information. Rather, how the information is stored is optimized. For a simple illustrative example, you would agree that the following are equivalent wrt. information stored:

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

10x 0

The former has ten 0's (i.e. 10 bytes) and the latter encoded version, meaning a run-span of ten 0's, uses only 4 bytes to encode the exact same information. The former is a brute force method of storing data (e.g. WAV), the later is more intelligent (e.g. FLAC).

BryanC · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2011, 04:10:48 pm »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 18, 2011, 03:51:03 pm

It looks like I have to go down the route of flac. I just cannot get my head around this business of flac sounds as good as WAV, if the file size is smaller then there is less info thus it cannot sound as good. i am struggling to come to terms with flac is capable of sounding as good as WAV if it has less info to work with. Ive been thru all this with analogue v CD !

A simple explanation that usually gets the gist across is that sound is non-random.

A very simplified example:

Say you have a repeating drum loop, encoded in bits, it appears like: 0010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010

This sequence appears in the song 50 times.

A wav file would appear like:

Code: [Select]

001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010001010101110001001010111010101010100001101010110101010101000101010111000100101011101010101010000110101011010101010100010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010

Whereas a flac file might say:

Code: [Select]

let "a"=0010101011100010010101110101010101000011010101101010101010
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Edit: Beat me!

Quote from: MrC on October 18, 2011, 04:09:43 pm

The compressed files, which having fewer bytes, do not carry less information. Rather, how the information is stored is optimized. For a simple illustrative example, you would agree that the following are equivalent wrt. information stored:

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

10x 0

The former has ten 0's (i.e. 10 bytes) and the latter encoded version, meaning a run-span of ten 0's, uses only 4 bytes to encode the exact same information. The former is a brute force method of storing data (e.g. WAV), the later is more intelligent (e.g. FLAC).

fredster1 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:29:28 am »

I understand the logic of WAV / flac, but when it hits the DAC does 10 sound the same as 1+1+1+1+1+1+1 etc ! I've read a few places that say it doesn't, best I do some testing for myself I guess before converting everything.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:49:45 am »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 19, 2011, 06:29:28 am

I understand the logic of WAV / flac, but when it hits the DAC does 10 sound the same as 1+1+1+1+1+1+1 etc ! I've read a few places that say it doesn't, best I do some testing for myself I guess before converting everything.

Well - each to their own but I have been 100% FLAC for several years now and there is no possibility that I could discern any difference whether I was playing FLAC, wav or the original CD through my Music Hall 25.2 DAC.

Only you can decide for yourself but lossless is still lossless

VP

JimH · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:52:01 am »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 19, 2011, 06:29:28 am

I understand the logic of WAV / flac, but when it hits the DAC does 10 sound the same as 1+1+1+1+1+1+1 etc ! I've read a few places that say it doesn't, best I do some testing for myself I guess before converting everything.

The DAC will see exactly the same stream of bits. There is no difference in spite of what some people think.

csimon · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2011, 07:20:13 am »

Quote from: fredster1 on October 19, 2011, 06:29:28 am

I understand the logic of WAV / flac, but when it hits the DAC does 10 sound the same as 1+1+1+1+1+1+1 etc !

Yes! The compression is only for storage. It is uncompressed when it is retrieved from disk and sent to the playback device. The DAC sees exactly the same set of bits as the original WAV file because by the time the DAC sees it, it has already been expanded back out again. Don't panic - FLAC is lossless - that means that there is no information lost, the "unpacked" version expands to an exact copy of the original like a ZIP file, therefore there is no difference at all.

BillT · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2011, 07:46:53 am »

Going back to the original question, can't you just copy the library to the new computer? Might have to edit the path if the audio files aren't in the same relative location.

That's what i do to keep a copy on my laptop and it seems to work.

fredster1 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2011, 10:59:16 am »

thanks all, flac sounds like my way forward.

Once I get this sorted i can get on with the enjoyable bit of trying out DACs ! Now there's a topic a mile long. Will do some searching on here first.

fredster1 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 25, 2011, 11:00:45 am »

Before I go ahead and start converting my files, I have noticed that I can integrate the 2 PCs over the network and get the library on my old machine showing of the album lists and art etc of my WAV files. This means I can play from the new machine but it only seems a clone that you loose when you come off the network. So is there a way I can make this library my main library on the new machine. I have tried using the 'clone' and 'copy' type commands, but cant seem to get it to work. Can anyone talk me through how to copy over a library please. I am sure I am not alone in having these problems as the system seems self explanitory until you actually try it and then it doesn't do what you expect !

JimH · « **Reply #19 on:** October 25, 2011, 11:06:53 am »

Try making a backup on the old machine and restoring it on the new machine. Backup and restore are under File/Library.

If your drive has changed, you will need to edit the locations on the new machine. This link tells you more:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Moving_Files

fredster1 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 25, 2011, 02:25:01 pm »

I cant sync my files to my new PC, i cant copy them, i cant restore them to my new PC, i cant load them. I can see all the audio files and artwork and playlists of my old PC over my network, but there seems no way I can actually copy it and make it my main library so i can connect up my external hard drive and actually play some music.

If I have to re-rip my entire collection onto the new PC, well i,m not sure i can be bothered. Back to CDs for me, what a waste of time and a lot of money.

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** October 25, 2011, 02:32:51 pm »

I removed a few emotional remarks.

You would get better advice if you could be specific.

What I understand is this:

You have an old PC. You ripped your CD's on it but stored the files on an external drive.

If so, you can plug it in to the new machine, install MC, and import these files. This will be automatic if you install MC first.

You can go to tools/import on the new machine and set up directories or drives you want to import. You can edit each one to specify the filetypes.

This isn't hard to do. When you get stuck, just ask. But include more details about what you have done.

fredster1 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 25, 2011, 02:36:53 pm »

Ok Jim, I;ve just had a couple of very frustrating evenings. Will have another go following your instructions. Maybe the problem is ive been trying to copy the library over with the external hard drive still plugged into my old pc rather than the new one.

Will get back to u

fredster1 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 25, 2011, 03:13:54 pm »

Ok, I uninstalled my old MC version and have downloaded a new one with the external HD connected. However none of the album details or anything are listed under ' audio '

it only displays 3 mp3 files which look like pre-included samples ( sleep away )

My files on the old PC were ripped as uncompressed wav and under 'file location' in the 'options' menu the audio was set to E: which was the external hard drive. I see that further down the 'conversion cache' locations were all set to C: drive

fredster1 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 29, 2011, 08:22:33 am »

I think i have finally sorted my problems out by converting all my WAV files to flac, then copying to the new library and then converting them back to WAV again. I do seem to be loosing cover art, but thats not too bad to rectify.

One problem I have left is my restore doesnt wok on my new machine. It doesnt recognise my registration code. How do I use my previous registration on the new machine, I understand i should not need to buy a new License.

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** October 29, 2011, 08:33:55 am »

Try a copy and paste on the Restore Page. Use IE as your browser.

Please see the Purchase link above for more on how licensing works.

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Author Topic: Changing to a new PC music server (Read 4700 times)