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[trcns]

I have ATI Radeon HD 4850 with HDMI 7.1, but I setup my computer to use 2 channels stereo and 16/44.1 bit rate for the optimal sound as advised by one of the guru’s from this site, and it does sound as CD sounds. But then do I need a high end audio card in my computer?

 I am looking into very small PC by Asus or all in one touch screen computer from Samsung; both have built in HDMI port, Will I still be able to get the same quality of sound from these small PC’s?

On the other hand, I am also considering ASUS Xonar Essence STX 2 Channel PCIe Audio Sound Card.

I am not interested in playing movies or games. Just music. I have Kerll Power amp and Arcam Pre connected to this computer.

Please advise

[BryanC]

Long story, no. Short story, no.

You own a high-end amplifier, so there's no reason to duplicate the cost in a soundcard that may or may not match the quality of its DAC.

[phusis]

I have ATI Radeon HD 4850 with HDMI 7.1, but I setup my computer to use 2 channels stereo and 16/44.1 bit rate for the optimal sound as advised by one of the guru’s from this site, and it does sound as CD sounds. But then do I need a high end audio card in my computer?

I am looking into very small PC by Asus or all in one touch screen computer from Samsung; both have built in HDMI port, Will I still be able to get the same quality of sound from these small PC’s?

On the other hand, I am also considering ASUS Xonar Essence STX 2 Channel PCIe Audio Sound Card.

I am not interested in playing movies or games. Just music. I have Kerll Power amp and Arcam Pre connected to this computer.

Please advise

To the highlighted part: no, I'm quite sure you won't achieve the same audio quality with a small PC. A dedicated (HT)PC with a powerful (and silent) PSU to my mind and ears is the way to go. It certainly makes a difference.

If you're into 2-channel music only: with such a good poweramp I'd indeed consider upgrading your soundcard to a, say, Lynx L22 and, very importantly - if you have no strict need for it, get rid of your Arcam preamp; output from the Lynx L22 analogue out with a dedicated interconnect cable(not the one the comes with the Lynx soundcard) straight into your Krell poweramp. Then, use JRiver's internal volume control. 

Or, simply start out trying with your ASUS soundcard, outputting from the analogue out directly into your poweramp the same way as described with the Lynx soundcard. If you choose this option it's very important you make sure the JRiver volume control isn't bypassed(i.e. set to max/full output); instead leave the Lynx(or ASUS) soundcard's volume control at max and, again, use JRiver's internal volume control.

For a few years I used my 2-channel audio setup this way with an RME HDSP 9632 soundcard, but now it functions as an S/PDIF digital output (via AES/EBU) to a NuForce DAC-9.

[JimH]

To the highlighted part: no, I'm quite sure you won't achieve the same audio quality with a small PC. A dedicated (HT)PC with a powerful (and silent) PSU to my mind and ears is the way to go. It certainly makes a difference.

Most netbooks are fine for audio.  If you have an HDMI port, and an outboard amp is used, the quality should be identical to a powerful desktop PC.

[phusis]

Most netbooks are fine for audio.  If you have an HDMI port, and an outboard amp is used, the quality should be identical to a powerful desktop PC.

From experience I don't agree, but perhaps this may to some be splitting hairs.

More important is getting rid of the preamp, or at least try it.

[Alex B]

You own a high-end amplifier, so there's no reason to duplicate the cost in a soundcard that may or may not match the quality of its DAC.

AFAIK, the (apparently now discontinued) Arcam preamps don't have digital inputs (and DACs) unless trcns means one of the Arcam AV processors by "preamp".

I'd recommend to first try the on-board analog output. If the audio quality is not good enough a good PCI or PCI-E sound card with analog output connectors should be fine. My long time favorite has been LynxTWO-B, but I strongly believe that any decent card (like ASUS Xonar Essence STX 2) is good enough for most of us. In any case the audible quality differences are subtle even when one of the modern on-board "HD" sound devices and the most expensive external DAC are compared. Personally I'd rather invest to better speakers or acoustic room treatment than to an expensive DAC (of course if money is not an issue and you already have your dream speakers, amp and listening room you may want to consider one of the audiophile DACs).

[Alex B]

More important is getting rid of the preamp, or at least try it.

- but not because of better audio quality. When MC is used a separate preamp may be unnecessary, but a high quality preamp does not make the audio quality worse. It may still be needed as a switchboard and volume controller for various other audio sources.

[phusis]

- but not because of better audio quality. When MC is used a separate preamp may be unnecessary, but a high quality preamp does not make the audio quality worse. It may still be needed as a switchboard and volume controller for various other audio sources.

Since I regard many, even pricier (separate hardware) preamp's to be inherently sound quality degrading this is indeed why I recommended trying the non-preamp approach, instead leaving it to a software-based one like JRiver. In my own setup I do prefer the build-in volume control of my DAC against the digital internal option in JRiver, but since my DAC is first and foremost a DAC with a volume control I don't consider it a preamp as such, especially not one in the need of a separate IC and power cable. I'm aware of the possible need for "various other audio sources," but this is also why I pointed out "if not strictly needed" with regard to a possible omission of the Arcam preamp of the OP. 

[trcns]

I just paid $7000 for this preamp last month I cannot get rid of it. Also do guys think analog signal will be better than HDMI out?

[Alex B]

If you indeed have an Arcam AV processor with a HDMI input, I'd recommend to simply use the HDMI interconnect if you don't notice any audio quality or functional issues. Probably the DAC inside the Arcam is about as good as any high end DAC.

[trcns]

At least I myself think I have pretty good speakers. Or complete audio system.

 I have Monitor Audio Speakers, Krell 7 Channel Power Amp and Arcam AV888 AV processor connected to my projector. I do not rip videos but do like to play music in multi channels. I was going to buy Sony 400 Blu-ray disk changer to music. But I read an article in audiophile magazine about JRiver also my interest was see on screen what’s playing. So I set up computer and ripped all my CD’s. Now said that what I don’t know is how to get the best out of this setup. If someone could walk me through the steps. I do not understand lot terms so please be simple.

When I started with JRiver the was very disappointing but then “mbagge” walked me through the steps and its close 99.5% of the CD quality. I would love to improve it or play every thing in 24/96 mode if it improves the sound.

[phusis]

If you indeed have an Arcam AV processor with a HDMI input, I'd recommend to simply use the HDMI interconnect if you don't notice any audio quality or functional issues. Probably the DAC inside the Arcam is about as good as any high end DAC.

I wasn't aware this was the kind of preamp, if indeed so, the OP referred to, and so my suggestion above would appear rather crude. Sorry for this...

[Blaine78]

Hi Trcns,
if you're spending $7000 on a pre amp and have Krell gear.. i recommend not getting a PCI sound card, but an external USB DAC. There are LOADS of USB DAC options that suit all price ranges from $100 to $10,000

[pcstockton]

Hi Trcns,
if you're spending $7000 on a pre amp and have Krell gear.. i recommend not getting a PCI sound card, but an external USB DAC. There are LOADS of USB DAC options that suit all price ranges from $100 to $10,000

No way, stay away from a USB Dac.... get a legit upnp streamer and forget all the nonsense with cables.  Simple Cat5 from your router to your Naim (NDX) or Linn (Akurate or Klimax) streamer is the way to go.  You can upgrade the streamer with a DAC if and when you see fit.

At your level of kit you dont want a computer noisy PSU anywhere near your kit.

Also, get a dedicated spur.  Best upgrade ever.

-Patrick

[Alex B]

IMHO, there is really no need to buy or upgrade anything if HDMI works as expected. I have read that Arcam AV888, in addition to having high quality DACs, uses special means for reducing or even eliminating digital jitter - which would be about the only thing that could theoretically (but not necessarily audibly) affect the audio quality when HDMI is used.

... and its close 99.5% of the CD quality.

The reason for getting only "99.5% of the CD Quality" could be explained by different output volume levels. If the audio sources are not carefully calibrated to produce exactly the same volume level, a slightly louder source is usually experienced as having "better quality" in a listening test. Another possibility is the user expectation in a sighted listening test. User expectation is a strong force. It can produce big audio quality differences.

[JimH]

I've split the metaphysical discussion to "If it sounds better, ..."

[pcstockton]

If you are testing speakers the situation is quite different.

Why is this?

My preamp, and source (Naim DAC) have far more effect on what comes out of the speakers, than the speakers themselves?  The source by far has the most effect.

When you consider linear power supplies (and quality thereof), analog output stages (unregulated vs regulated) in concert with grounding principles and pre-amp's partnership with the power amp, there is a lot going on.

Speakers are the most passive element of most systems.  The room has more of an effect than speakers.

[DarkPenguin]

Why is this?

My preamp, and source (Naim DAC) have far more effect on what comes out of the speakers, than the speakers themselves?  The source by far has the most effect.

When you consider linear power supplies (and quality thereof), analog output stages (unregulated vs regulated) in concert with grounding principles and pre-amp's partnership with the power amp, there is a lot going on.

Speakers are the most passive element of most systems.  The room has more of an effect than speakers.

Distortion at the speakers mask a lot of input sins.

[Blaine78]

No way, stay away from a USB Dac.... get a legit upnp streamer and forget all the nonsense with cables.  Simple Cat5 from your router to your Naim (NDX) or Linn (Akurate or Klimax) streamer is the way to go.  You can upgrade the streamer with a DAC if and when you see fit.

At your level of kit you dont want a computer noisy PSU anywhere near your kit.

Also, get a dedicated spur.  Best upgrade ever.

-Patrick

I own an Ayre QB-9... . it isolates computer noise by using Optocouplers for the digital stream, and uses and cleans the USB power for the USB receiver at the Ayre end. so, the DAC and Audio parts of the Ayre are completely free and removed from computer grounding noise. the Ayre also clocks the data from it's own clock inside the unit (asynch). I'm using a seasonic PSU on the computer, renowned for low ripple and noise, and is plugged into a separate power filter from the mains power from the wall, isolated from the rest of my equipment, ATC amp, Ayre DAC... and it sounds amazing.

[pcstockton]

... and it sounds amazing.

Optocouplers aside, this is ALL that matters.

[crisnee]

You might want to go over to Computer Audiophile and check out opinions over there. I haven't heard anyone suggest or consider using a direct connection from the computer (built in hdmi, coax, toslink). Most folks seem to be using either usb converters--usb > coax (better ones go from about $150 to $2k and maybe higher) into their dacs, high end processors or AVRs. They also use USB dacs; and a few use high end sound cards, and a very few firewire dacs.

If you enter this world prepare to do some studying, there's lots of stuff out there.

I use an Audio-GD converter into either a Musical Fidelity V-dac, or a Scott Nixon Tubedac2. These are on the low end of the price range, but I'm very satisfied with them.

-Chris

[SteveR]

FWIW I did a "sound clinic" this evening using the following system:

Sony Viao (on battery as with psu it sounds frankly shitful of interference)
MC17 in two modes**
Roksan Caspian M2
Spendor S6e

Trackes used

Madeleine Peyroux - Dont Wait Too Long
ACDC - Rock n Roll Damnatio
Keb Mo As Soon As I Get Paid
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours (24/96)
Billy Burnette various (24/96)
Airbourne - Runnin' Wild

To my surprise, it sounded better to all of us via USB, I was the most sceptical (also the oldest and worst hearing probably). I now have iot set up as ASIO / USB now by default, though of course there are many variables to consider.