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[Mr ChriZ]

For some reason the Output Format DSP plugin keeps turning itself on after playing some media?

[Mr ChriZ]

This only seems to happen if WSAPI Event Style is selected.

There's a few things I don't understand about WSAPI.

1. Why does the above happen?
2. Why does WSAPI limit me to 16bit bit depth where as using Direct Sound will happily play 32bit?
3. Why when I attempt to play a 6 Channel DVD with Direct Sound it automatically comes out correctly on my two channel system, but with WSAPI I lose the voice channel?

[audunth]

As I understand it, the output format, even if checked in the options, is bypassed if you select output same as source.

When you play through Directsound (or Wave out), Windows will mix the 6 channel DVD to 2 channel if you have selected 2 channel output in Windows' Sound options.

When you use WASAPI MC is talking directly to the sound card and will output 6 channels of which you will only hear the channels you have speakers connected to. If you don't have a center speaker connected, you will not hear most voices. Unless you select 2 channel output in Output format, which will make MC do the same Windows does with Directsound, downmix 6 channels to 2.

I'm guessing the reason Output format gets enabled when you select WASAPI is that WASAPI can't be played without Output format, but since Directsound goes through Windows' sound engine, you can choose to disable Output format and let Windows handle the mixing.

Those of you who know more about this, feel free to elaborate or correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mr ChriZ]

That's Useful information thanks Audunth.

[jimmy neutron]

No, that can't be right. If that were the case then what you're saying is WASAPI is ALWAYS sending a surround signal out, and therefore always upsampling even stereo signals if you have selected that you have a 5.1 speaker setup. In this case then you would hear all your stereo music in surround sound. This should not be, and is actually the same issue I am having. I have another thread that remains unanswered with the same problem as this OP. It seems WASAPI is in fact mixing stereo signals to surround sound and outputting them as such. If you select 2 channel then you gat correct stereo playback k but you also lose surround sound in movies because it's being downmixed to stereo.
I believe something has gone wrong with the "Source number of channels" selector on MC17 final. It's not working.  I have MC16 on another HTPC and both movies and music play back in the proper number of channels.

Jimmy

[Matt]

Audunth's answer above is good.  Thanks.

@jimmy neutron
'Source number of channels' is working for me.  However, it's recommended to always output using the number of speakers you have.  JRSS is recommended, but optional if you want no upmixing.

[audunth]

Jimmy, if you select 5.1 output, select "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" too, and see if that works. There's even a selection box for "Move center to L/R" for those who are running a phantom center setup. If you want 2 channel movies to output in 5.1 and 2 channel music in 2.0 then make two zones with different settings. Ctrl+T switches between zones.

[jimmy neutron]

Well I would try those settings except I don't want to upmix or downmix anything. I want 2 channel music to play back in 2 channel stereo, and movies/DVD's to play back in 5.1 Dolby Digital surround sound. If I set "Source number of channels" to 5.1, which is the number of speakers connected to my preamp, it will ALWAYS revert back to 2 channel stereo AFTER i attempt to play back a movie. JRSS is not an option for me to use because I son't want any mixing of the channels - I want only the number of original channels to be played.

The problem is that "Source number of speakers" will not save and just reverts back to 2 channel stereo after a movie is played (but ofcourse the movie will be in 2 channel stereo and not surround sound. I can verify that it did not save by again opening the config and visually seeing that it went back to 2 channel stereo. I also notice that in that particular page there is no "SAVE" button, you simply X out to return to the main config, at which point you can SAVE here. Is this normal?

Jimmy

[Matt]

Well I would try those settings except I don't want to upmix or downmix anything. I want 2 channel music to play back in 2 channel stereo, and movies/DVD's to play back in 5.1 Dolby Digital surround sound. If I set "Source number of channels" to 5.1, which is the number of speakers connected to my preamp, it will ALWAYS revert back to 2 channel stereo AFTER i attempt to play back a movie. JRSS is not an option for me to use because I son't want any mixing of the channels - I want only the number of original channels to be played.

The problem is that "Source number of speakers" will not save and just reverts back to 2 channel stereo after a movie is played (but ofcourse the movie will be in 2 channel stereo and not surround sound. I can verify that it did not save by again opening the config and visually seeing that it went back to 2 channel stereo. I also notice that in that particular page there is no "SAVE" button, you simply X out to return to the main config, at which point you can SAVE here. Is this normal?
Jimmy

It will only switch automatically if you play something that fails to open the device without the change.

In other words, if playing something that's 5.1 causes it to switch to 2.0, that means the output does not support 6 channel output.

[Mr ChriZ]

This still doesn't appear to be working for me.
I have my 6 channel DVD playing with WASAPI Event Style, and output format set to 2 Channels Stereo.
However I'm still not getting the voice channel.
I've made sure to restart MC post making the changes.

[Matt]

This still doesn't appear to be working for me.
I have my 6 channel DVD playing with WASAPI Event Style, and output format set to 2 Channels Stereo.
However I'm still not getting the voice channel.
I've made sure to restart MC post making the changes.

Do you have JRSS enabled (and not 'no mixing') in DSP Studio > Output Format?

[Mr ChriZ]

Thanks with JRSS enabled I get the voice channel.

JRSS doesn't seem that aptly named any more?

[jimmy neutron]

It will only switch automatically if you play something that fails to open the device without the change.

In other words, if playing something that's 5.1 causes it to switch to 2.0, that means the output does not support 6 channel output.

I don't know what you mean by "the output does not support 6 channel output". I'm playing DVD full rips that play fine in my other HTPC with MC16, and in this current HTPC when played back in Windows media player. Even if I insert a real DVD disc and let MC17 play it I end up with the same results - just 2 channel stereo playback. If I play with the settings and the ASIO codecs I can get true dolby digital surround to play from my movies, but my music will also be in surround sound! It's like MC will play both formats in either surround sound or in 2 channel stereo, but not in their own respective formats.

I'm so totally confused  ? . I'll bet $10.00 it's going to be something simple and stupid on my part. MC17 just works so perfect with every and any setting that I can't believe this is a real issue!

Jimmy

[jimmy neutron]

For Glynor. Here is a detail of what is happening.

System specs and associated stereo gear:

Upstairs Gameroom:

Stereo: Krell Showcase Pre amp
McIntosh Power amplifiers
DIY HTPC - Windows 7 32bit, Pentium, 2 gigs RAM, Nvidea videocard with 1 gig RAM. Creative X-fi soundcard (using only digital out to Krell's digital input)
Elo touchscreen monitor ( DVI out of video card + USB for touchscreen + 120 volt AC power source ), and Optmia 120" LCD projector (connected to VGA output of video card) - both connected to HTPC
Wireless Bluetooth keyboard and mouse for regular Windows use.
5.1 speaker system (soon to add 2 more side speakers)
MC 17.0.71 latest build, on home wired network
External hard drive housing 2 terrabytes of FLAC music (music streamed to downstairs music only pc for 2 channel music playback, running Windows 7 32 bit, MC 17.0.71 build)
This gameroom HTPC sees and streams movies from downstairs Family Room HTPC for playback here in the Gameroom. (bottom Family Room HTPC is on MC16 final build, 6 terrabytes ripped DVD and blu-ray movies in external hard drives)

Downstairs HTPC:

DIY HTPC Windows 7 64 bit, AMD quad core, digital output from mobo, Bluray playback, 6 terrabytes movie storage on external hard drives, hardwired LAN home network.
Yamaha reciever, HTPC connected to Yammi with coax digital cable from mobo
5.1 speaker setup

Problem:
On my upstairs Gameroom HTPC i can see and access all my movies on my downstairs Family room HTPC, and MC will playback those movies with no issue in picture - but sound is the issue. My main use for my Gameroom HTPC is for both hi-rez music 2 channel playback and 5.1 Dolby Digital movie playback.

I use ASIO, or WASAPI for the output mode. Output Mode Settings shows my Creative ASIO Device for ASIO playback. In DSP & Output Format, I *want* to select "Source Number of Channels" in the channel box, and "Source Bitdepth" in the Bitdepth box. I do not want any JRSS upmixing or downmixing - or mixing of any kind. My goal is to play all my FLAC music in 2 channel stereo and all my movies in their proper 5.1 Dolby Digital surround sound with no mixing, up-sampling, or any other DSP function. Selecting "Source Number of Channels" *should* allow me to achieve this with no user intervention as all sources will be decoded properly. Instead, after making the selection of "Source Number of Channels", I then proceed to click the "X" at the upper right of the page, then click "OK" on the remaining OPTIONS page. This *should* have locked my selction of "Source Number of Channels".

I then go into THEATER VIEW and scroll to playback, for example, Pink Floyd's The Wall. The movie plays with no visual problems, but the sound will be 2 channels only - front left and right. I can stop the movie and exit THEATER VIEW and go back to the OPTIONS - AUDIO - DSP STUDIO and find that the "Source Number of Channels" that I previously selected is now 2 channels, with JRSS 2.0 mixing selected.

If I play a music file at this point my music plays back in 2 channels as they should. No problem. But my movies are also in 2 channel. Not good. If I select 5.1 channels and "Output surround sound as Dolby Digital", turn off JRSS, and keep the ASIO on, when I play back a movie MC will commit an error and stop working and will close.

Now, If I select Output Mode: WASAPI Event Style, and Device as SPDIF, then choose 5.1 channels in DSP studio, select "Output surround sound", and turn OFF mixing, then play back a movie, the movie will now play in Dolby Digital surround sound!!!! I'll now stop the movie and choose a song from my MUSIC library. The song plays in 5.1 Dolby Digital ( as shown on my Krell and heard from all my speakers) - not good.

Going back into DSP and selecting "Source Number of Channels" (with WASAPI-Event Style this time), and then play back a movie again. Movie plays back in stereo and not Dolby Digital, but a music file plays back in stereo! Re-checking the DSP studio shows that the Channel selection has gone back to 2 channels.

If I select WASAPI, instead of WASAPI-Event Style, the same happens just as before - no difference.
Even if I insert a DVD movie disc into my HTPC and let it play in MC, it will still give me the "reverse surround sound" bug. But if I play back that DVD disc, or any movie file, in Windows Media Center, it plays back correctly and in full Dolby Digital surround sound, while my music plays back in proper 2 channel stereo. This proves to me that my movie and music files are proper ( and they play back just fine as they should on my downstairs Family Room HTPC), and that my Krell is operating correctly, and that the problem is in the MC 17.0.71 of my upstairs Gameroom HTPC.

Glynor, if there is anything else you need me to describe let me know. I'm also posting a few pics of my 3 systems - the downstairs Family Room HTPC with MC 16 final where my movie library is stored and streaming to my upstairs Game room HTPC; my downstairs 2 channel music only system running MC 17.0.71 streaming all music from my upstairs Gameroom HTPC; and my upstairs Gameroom HTPC which houses all my music and streams it to my 2 channel system downstairs, and plays back my movies from my Family Room HTPC (this Gameroom HTPC is the one with the "reversed surround sound" bug).

Jimmy

Downstairs Family Room HTPC:




2 Channel music system:




Upstairs Gameroom HTPC:

[Mr ChriZ]

Your house is Cool! 

[Alex B]

... Krell Showcase Pre amp ...
... Creative X-fi soundcard (using only digital out to Krell's digital input)

S/PDIF is technically only "2 channel". It is possible to use S/PDIF pass-through for transmitting compressed DD or DTS because the undecoded stream is in a "package" that is similar to uncompressed stereo PCM signal.

When MC decodes the original DD or DTS stream it creates uncompressed 5.1 (or 7.1 etc) PCM signal. It is not possible to transport the decoded signal through S/PDIF because the physical interface does not support more than two PCM channels.

The "Output surround sound as Dolby Digital..." option re-encodes the decoded multichannel stream to DD and makes possible to transmit it, but if I understood your description correctly it will re-encode also the stereo sources (I have never actually tested this combination of settings). In any case I wouldn't recommend using this lossy transcoding option unless absolutely necessary. It reduces audio quality, sometimes audibly.

Some possible solutions:

- If you are willing to play the "DD or DTS videos" without any audio controls on the software side you could try the Bitstreaming option. Then the DD and DTS audio tracks will be passed through without decoding them. (Options > Video > General Video Settings > Bitstreaming...)

- Upgrade your audio hardware to support HDMI audio. HDMI can transmit uncompressed multichannel.

- Use the multichannel analog outputs on the sound card. Upgrade the sound card if necessary.

- Use separate playback zones (with different audio settings) for different media types. E.g. Music Zone, Video Zone, and, if necessary, a separate zone for "2 ch stereo" videos.

[jimmy neutron]

S/PDIF is technically only "2 channel". It is possible to use S/PDIF pass-through for transmitting compressed DD or DTS because the undecoded stream is in a "package" that is similar to uncompressed stereo PCM signal.

When MC decodes the original DD or DTS stream it creates uncompressed 5.1 (or 7.1 etc) PCM signal. It is not possible to transport the decoded signal through S/PDIF because the physical interface does not support more than two PCM channels.

The "Output surround sound as Dolby Digital..." option re-encodes the decoded multichannel stream to DD and makes possible to transmit it, but if I understood your description correctly it will re-encode also the stereo sources (I have never actually tested this combination of settings). In any case I wouldn't recommend using this lossy transcoding option unless absolutely necessary. It reduces audio quality, sometimes audibly.

Some possible solutions:

- If you are willing to play the "DD or DTS videos" without any audio controls on the software side you could try the Bitstreaming option. Then the DD and DTS audio tracks will be passed through without decoding them. (Options > Video > General Video Settings > Bitstreaming...)

- Upgrade your audio hardware to support HDMI audio. HDMI can transmit uncompressed multichannel.

- Use the multichannel analog outputs on the sound card. Upgrade the sound card if necessary.

- Use separate playback zones (with different audio settings) for different media types. E.g. Music Zone, Video Zone, and, if necessary, a separate zone for "2 ch stereo" videos.

No Alex, I think you have it wrong. S/PDIF DOES support full Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound. That is the ONLY way to get Dolby Digital surround sound from DVD players, HTPC's, etc into your stereo for decoding by the DAC's. It's Hi-rez files over 24/96 and True Digital surround info (like that on Blue Rays) that S/PDIF cannot carry. But I'm not looking for that. Remember, MC will output 5.1 Dolby Digital over S/PDIF - just ask anyone who uses MC, as this is probably the way most will connect their MC/HTPC's to their stereo.

PCM audio is usually 2 channel bitstream (if chosen in the menu), but I'm not looking for that option either. I want a true channel pass-thru, meaning if I play a song then only the song is played back - no upmixing to surround sound. If I play back a movie, then only the movie is played back in 5.1 surround sound - not downmixed into stereo. This is what is happening here. Regardless of what settings I use in MC DSP, it will always revert back to 2 channel playback.

My Family Room HTPC is connected to my Yamaha stereo with an S/PDIF fiber cable, and MC is set to play music in stereo, and movies in Dolby Digital, and it plays fine. Everything works on that system (MC 16 final build). But on my Gameroom HTPC (MC 17.0.71) DSP settings will NOT stay on "stereo in = stereo out", and "Dolby Digital in = Dolby Digital out".  But at the same time if I use Windows Media Player, then all formats are played back correctly. It is only in MC that the formats will not play correctly.

Upgrading to HDMI for surround sound is not needed to get Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound. The MC software extracts that info and passes it along the ONLY way from the soundcard to the stereo - on the S/PDIF or COAX output. I don't need True Digital since I am not playing Blurays on this HTPC.

Using the analog outputs of the soundcard - no way. Never have used them, never will. My DAC's and onboard Dolby Digital decoding in my Krell Showcase preamp is much better than the soundcards Dolby decoders. My HTPC connects to my Krell with the Digital output and the Krell handles the rest. This is the standard and universal way it is done.

Seperate playback zones. This may be an option, but why? MC should be able to send source number of channels to playback. This works for my downstairs HTPC, and it works by design. Rigging it because something in MC 17 is broken (maybe broken, maybe not) is not an option. We need to figure out what is causing MC to react this way and fix it.

I've exhausted all known configurable methods and troubleshooting in DSP, and in the PC in general. I've come to the conclusion that the PC is working correctly, as is the stereo. But because MC keeps reverting to 2 channels instead of staying on Source number, then something must be wrong with MC, or something is causing MC to revert to stereo. Can I ask anyone here with a similar system and running MC 17.0.71 to check their DSP settings and confirm that playing a song remains in stereo and playing a movie plays in surround?

Jimmy

[glynor]

No Alex, I think you have it wrong. S/PDIF DOES support full Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound. That is the ONLY way to get Dolby Digital surround sound from DVD players, HTPC's, etc into your stereo for decoding by the DAC's. It's Hi-rez files over 24/96 and True Digital surround info (like that on Blue Rays) that S/PDIF cannot carry. But I'm not looking for that. Remember, MC will output 5.1 Dolby Digital over S/PDIF - just ask anyone who uses MC, as this is probably the way most will connect their MC/HTPC's to their stereo.

PCM audio is usually 2 channel bitstream (if chosen in the menu), but I'm not looking for that option either. I want a true channel pass-thru, meaning if I play a song then only the song is played back - no upmixing to surround sound. If I play back a movie, then only the movie is played back in 5.1 surround sound - not downmixed into stereo. This is what is happening here. Regardless of what settings I use in MC DSP, it will always revert back to 2 channel playback.

Alex is right, but you're looking for something different than what he thought you were looking for (or so it seemed to me skimming all of this).

I'm pretty sure I can fix your problem.  The system is "Fix Audio First, then worry about Video."

1. Open the DSP -> Output Format.  Set Channels to 2 (stereo), or maybe 2.1 if you want JRSS to mix in a subwoofer (it didn't seem like it).  In that mode, it doesn't much matter what you do here, but I'd set Mixing to None.  Make sure all of your other stuff in the DSP is right how you want it, and close the DSP.

2. Now, so long as your Audio Options are set properly, you can get nice 2-channel stereo music.  Yay.

3. Go to Options -> Video -> General Video Setup -> Bitstreaming and set it to SPDIF.

That way, video files will "pass through" Dolby Digital and DTS encoded audio directly to the receiver/preamp over the SPDIF.  Setting it to SPDIF (and not HDMI) tells it what kind of audio stream your receiver and cable are capable of handling (the stuff Alex was talking about above).

It won't ever decode the video audio, and your receiver will be tasked with handling it.  That sounds like it is what you want.  There is one, last possible step though, depending on your goals.

The above settings alone will work for all video files that are actually 5-channel AC3 (Dolby Digital or DTS).  However, many videos are NOT encoded with 5-channel AC3.  A lot of them that are "publicly available" have been re-encoded to either 2-channel MP3/AAC or they are still AC3 but only 2-channels are encoded.  When this is done, the audio is typically "encoded" (however that is done) with Dolby ProLogic to allow a receiver to generate "fake surround" out of the 2 channel audio.  With the above settings, whenever you play a file that has only 2-channel audio (MP3/AAC audio tracks, usually), it will come out just two channel, because MC's default audio path is used and you set that to 2-channel.

This might be what you want.  That's what you want for music.  However, if you want all video audio to be upmixed, regardless, then there is more you need to do.

4. Set Windows to "think" that you only have 2 channels connected.  How you accomplish this varies depending on Windows version, but you want to open up the Speaker Configuration Control Panel and set it to 2-channel.  This won't impact MC's bitstreaming, since it isn't decoded audio data that is being sent out across the SPDIF.  Honestly, it won't impact anything MC does in the Audio section.  Even if you set Windows to 2-channel mode, MC's Options -> Audio and DSP "override" what Windows is set to there if you use WASAPI.  In any case, you want Windows to think there are only two speakers connected.

5. Now, in MC go back to Options -> Video -> General Video Settings and change Video Mode to Advanced -> Custom.

6. Follow these instructions: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=69196.msg465608#msg465608

That will set MC to send ALL video audio out directly to your receiver/preamp via the SPDIF, and not route it through the DSP or MC's normal audio engine at all.  Music will stay as it is, this will only impact video audio.  What that should accomplish, along with setting Windows to 2-channel output (this is an ESSENTIAL step, otherwise Windows will send 2 active channels and the rest "blank" because it is dumb), is that your receiver will see the 2-channel input and can process it's own DTS-Neo 6 or Dolby ProLogic (assuming you turn that mode on) to expand the stereo audio to "fake surround".

Again, none of these latter steps are necessary if you don't care about expanding the stereo in those crappy AVIs you torrented or ripped a long time ago before you knew to set it to preserve source audio.

[Alex B]

No Alex, I think you have it wrong. S/PDIF DOES support full Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound. That is the ONLY way to get Dolby Digital surround sound from DVD players, HTPC's, etc into your stereo for decoding by the DAC's. It's Hi-rez files over 24/96 and True Digital surround info (like that on Blue Rays) that S/PDIF cannot carry. But I'm not looking for that. Remember, MC will output 5.1 Dolby Digital over S/PDIF - just ask anyone who uses MC, as this is probably the way most will connect their MC/HTPC's to their stereo.

Actually, you are saying the same as I. S/PDIF can transmit undecoded compressed Dolby Digital. This is usually called bitstreaming or pass-through.

When direct pass-through is used no DSP is possible. The compressed data is decoded in the external processor.

If the settings inside MC have any effect to the audio output (internal volume, output format, channel mixer, EQ, room correction, etc) then the signal is already decoded to uncompressed PCM. And if the external decoder still detects "Dolby Digital" then the final output signal has been re-encoded to Dolby Digital (i.e. "Output surround sound as Dolby Digital..." is enabled)

PCM audio is usually 2 channel bitstream (if chosen in the menu), but I'm not looking for that option either. I want a true channel pass-thru, meaning if I play a song then only the song is played back - no upmixing to surround sound. If I play back a movie, then only the movie is played back in 5.1 surround sound - not downmixed into stereo. This is what is happening here. Regardless of what settings I use in MC DSP, it will always revert back to 2 channel playback.

Did you try the "Options > Video > General Video Settings > Bitstreaming..." setting? I have not tested it, but it is supposed to do what you want.

My Family Room HTPC is connected to my Yamaha stereo with an S/PDIF fiber cable, and MC is set to play music in stereo, and movies in Dolby Digital, and it plays fine. Everything works on that system (MC 16 final build).

It might help if you could describe your MC16 settings in detail. Perhaps someone knows if it is possible to configure MC17 in a similar way.

Upgrading to HDMI for surround sound is not needed to get Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound. The MC software extracts that info and passes it along the ONLY way from the soundcard to the stereo - on the S/PDIF or COAX output. I don't need True Digital since I am not playing Blurays on this HTPC.

HDMI is only needed if you want to use MC's software Dolby Digital decoder and perhaps some DSP options and still want to output the decoded digital signal to a multichannel surround processor/preamp/receiver. As I said, it is not possible to output uncompressed 5.1 PCM through S/PDIF.

When the original Dolby Digital data is directly transmitted through S/PDIF, the physical data format is quite similar to 2 channel PCM. In this case the player software cannot adjust the outputted signal anyhow.


EDIT

glynor posted while I was typing my reply. His instructions are good.

[glynor]

Did you try the "Options > Video > General Video Settings > Bitstreaming..." setting? I have not tested it, but it is supposed to do what you want.

I have, extensively.  Unless something SPDIF-specific in MC's bitstreaming support broke recently (unlikely) this is what he needs.

Jimmy, check my post above.  That should get you sorted out.

[pcstockton]

It's Hi-rez files over 24/96 and True Digital surround info (like that on Blue Rays) that S/PDIF cannot carry.

Strange.  My Juli@ can outut over 24/96 via spdif (coax).  I can send along 24/192 without issue.

-Patrick

[glynor]

Strange.  My Juli@ can outut over 24/96 via spdif (coax).  I can send along 24/192 without issue

SPDIF spec only "requires" 20-bit max resolution, though some hardware interfaces optionally support up to a full 24 bits if DRM isn't employed.  SPDIF is based on the pro AES3 spec, which was a 24-bit spec, but they added copy protection and a bunch of other crap for consumers that sucked up some of those available bits.  Plus, 75ohm coax is crappier than twisted pair with XLR connectors like the AES3 standard uses.

Anyway, some equipment supports up to 24/96 over SPDIF.  Some support 24/192.  Some don't, and just ignore the extra data.

In any case, it has nowhere near the bandwidth required to send 6 channels of uncompresssed PCM audio, which was Alex's point.  If you encode to Dolby Digital, it compresses the crap out of the stream to squeeze 6 channels down to the data size normally used to send one stereo pair of PCM.  That's fine if the source was already compressed, and you're just passing it through, but you probably wouldn't want it to do the same with your music.  That would pretty much defeat any point to compressing to FLAC instead of 96kbps MP3s.

It sounds pretty good to most people, but there are plenty of easy-to-obtain samples that can show you compression artifacting in Dolby Digital AC3 encoding.

[pcstockton]

SPDIF spec only "requires" 20-bit max resolution, though some hardware interfaces optionally support up to a full 24 bits if DRM isn't employed.  SPDIF is based on the pro AES3 spec, which was a 24-bit spec, but they added copy protection and a bunch of other crap for consumers that sucked up some of those available bits.  Plus, 75ohm coax is crappier than twisted pair with XLR connectors like the AES3 standard uses.

The Juli@ is 24/96 (toslink) and 24/192 (coax).  I can see that it is passing along what it should via my DAC syncing.  Should I worry or has ESI found a workaround?  How do all of the streamers work with 24/192?  Curious.

Also, my cablebox sends out DD via spdif which is decoded correctly by my Yamaha.  Is this the case where you said "unless it is already compressed"?

Just want to make sure I am getting everything I need for best SQ.

Thanks!
Patrick

[glynor]

Also, my cablebox sends out DD via spdif which is decoded correctly by my Yamaha.  Is this the case where you said "unless it is already compressed"?

Yes.  Dolby Digital is a lossy compressed format.  The total data rate available for AC3 is 640kbps (but this is typical only for BluRay and game consoles).  DVDs use a max data rate of 448kbps and sample rates up to 48kHz.  But that data rate is shared by all six channels.  To "fit" six channels of audio into such a small pipe, AC3 streams are compressed with a lossy compression system, similar to a CBR MP3.  The situation isn't really so simple, but for an average 5.1 audio track in a movie, simple math means that each channel only gets around 75kbps.  I think the compression system saves some bandwidth on the .1 sub channel (which doesn't need as much fidelity), but what I've "read" is that 5.1 channel Dolby Digital encoding at 448kbps is roughly the same as compressing your files to 96-128kbps MP3s, give or take a smidge.

For the other stuff, you have some high-end gear there.  If it can send 24/192 out over coax, then you're fine (assuming the receiving preamp/receiver/dac doesn't ignore it, which it isn't in your case).

[Alex B]

The Juli@ is 24/96 (toslink) and 24/192 (coax).  I can see that it is passing along what it should via my DAC syncing.  Should I worry or has ESI found a workaround?  How do all of the streamers work with 24/192?  Curious.

As glynor said, "2 ch 192/24" is possible if the hardware at both ends support it. There is no need to worry. When it is not supported the output will not be slightly different, it will completely broken.

Also, my cablebox sends out DD via spdif which is decoded correctly by my Yamaha.  Is this the case where you said "unless it is already compressed"?

If you are speaking about 5.1 it is bitstreaming the original DD data. I don't know how the boxes handle 2 ch stereo DD. Many European broadcasters use MPEG-1 Audio Layer II (i.e. MP2) for regular stereo. My DVB-C boxes decode MP2 to uncompressed PCM before sending it to S/PDIF.

[jimmy neutron]

Alex, my apologies. I had my "home stereo" hat on and you had your "MC DSP" hat on. Different answers. So I'm sorry. Yes, you were right and so was I, we just came to the same answer thru different paths  .

Now, I finally got MC to give me correct 2 channel playback of my music and 5.1 Dolby Digital playback of my movies - automatically!!! I followed, from memory, some of what Glynor and Alex said in his earlier post about the settings ( by memory I mean that as I was stopped at a light earlier today I was able to skim thru Glynor's and Alex's post before the site went offline). I will say that I don't remember performing ANY of those settings on my Family Room HTPC - it literally just worked out of the box. On my Game room HTPC it was a struggle, but also a learning experience. Here is what I did:

My Windows Audio section is controlled by my Creative Labs Audio Control Center. Here I just made sure that I selected the number of speakers that I had. In my case 5.1, and that I wanted Dolby Digital to pass thru my SPDIF digital out cable for decoding by my Krell preamp.

Next I opened up TOOLS > OPTIONS > and selected WASAPI -Event Style. When I selected ASIO everytime I played music I got an error saying that I was playing an invalid format : 64bit, 6 ch. WTH?!? It's a 2 channel FLAC rip. Whatever. Using WASAPI - Event Style and playback worked with no errors, but still had the "reverse surround" bug.

Next in DSP I selected "Source Number of Channels" and Source Bitdepth". I was doing this before, but for some reason it was now sticking and remembering. I'm guessing my next step had something to do with this finally working.

Next I went to OPTIONS > VIDEO and under BITSTREAMING I selected YES (S/PDIF).

That's it. When I went to play a song it played in proper 2 channel stereo to my Krell, which in turn added the .1 subwoofer - PERFECT. I then stopped music playback and selected a Pink Floyd's The Wall movie for playback. My Krell "clicked" and then beautiful surround sound began with the message 5.1 Dolby Digital appearing on my Krell's display - PERFECT!!

Yesteerday I had tried everything except the BITSTREAM output. I would never had thought to go there because it's under the VIDEO section, and I was looking in the AUDIO section for the solution. (Thanks Glynor).

Glynor had mentioned something about movies having mp3 audio if torrented or downloaded. Let me say that ALL my movies are full DVD rips - not even compressed - just full rips with AnyDVD. All my movies have the regular and common Dolby Digital or DTS surround sound. I am aware some older movies will have Dolby Digital 2.0, as they were made before 5.1, and this is OK. I just want the actual number of channels passed to my krell with no intervention from MC. My Krell will handle any changes if needed. My audio music is also ALL CD rips in full FLAC lossless, with a few mp3's thrown in. I also have hi-rez music up to 24 bit / 192 kHz rate, and everytthing in between. In addition to those I have a few DVD-Audio music rips where the music is 24/96 in 5.1 Dolby Digital or DTS surround Sound ( Porcupine Tree, Metallica, Al De Miola, etc ). So long as I send the exact number of channels and the bitstream to my Krell - unaltered by MC - my Krell will decode it properly and select playback to be either STEREO, Dolby Digital 2.0, Dolby Digital/DTS 5.1. I have now achieved this with my Gameroom HTPC. Thank you so much Glynor and Alex for the troubleshooting and suggesstions  .

So now I have the audio portion working perfect, but the video is having some issues - small really. First my movie playback is "ripping" or "tearing" occassionaly during heavy movement on the scene. This didn't happen before and I'm sure it's just a setting. The "tear" appears very quickly across the middle of the movie, left to right. In addition to this I now have to figure a way to display the NOW PLAYING MOVIE on my 2nd Optima projector while keeping THEATER VIEW anchored on my touchscreen. I could CLONE the diplays, but I really don't want to see the movie on my touchscreen. A more elegant approach would be to CONTROL the movie and navigation from the touchscreen, and to only PLAY/WATCH the movie on the projector. This way a user can continue to browse for movies on the touchscreen (or browse for music) and que them, or add them to a playlist, or even check the weather and news feeds, while not causing any interruption to the movie that is playing.

Jimmy

[FastKayak]

After all the re-configurating is done when can the MC community stop over and listen/watch your KICK xxx systems?

Nice stuff you've got there!

-- FastKayak / Larry

[jimmy neutron]

After all the re-configurating is done when can the MC community stop over and listen/watch your KICK xxx systems?

Nice stuff you've got there!

-- FastKayak / Larry

You bring the beer, I'll do the BBQ! 

I'm serious.....

Jimmy

[JimH]

Thanks.  We'll buy the beer.  Latitude and longitude?

[glynor]

I am aware some older movies will have Dolby Digital 2.0, as they were made before 5.1, and this is OK. I just want the actual number of channels passed to my krell with no intervention from MC. My Krell will handle any changes if needed.

Just so you know, this is fine.  I only added that additional tip and steps just in case.

If you're happy with it as-is, then keeping Windows set to the proper number of channels is the best solution because setting Windows to Stereo-Only means that any application that does actually support surround sound, but supports it via DirectSound and not WASAPI (like many games), won't output surround because it won't think your speakers are available.

It is a pain.  There is a cool quick-switcher app that I use on my HTPC that runs in the task tray and lets you flip-flop these settings quickly, but it is still annoying.

I do it with my HTPC because I'm bitstreaming out via HDMI.  If I have Windows set to 5.1 channels, then my receiver always sees 6 discreet PCM channels coming in whenever something non-bitstreamed is played by the system.  That means that when I play a video on YouTube, Hulu, or TheDailyShow.com or something like that in my Web Browser, then my receiver doesn't see it as 2-channels, but 6 channels with 4 of them "blank", so it doesn't turn on DTS Neo6.

Like Matt, I didn't pay for those speakers not to use them.  I turn JRSS upmixing on for my music too.

But, to each their own.  If you like it that way, I'd leave it that way because the alternative is clunky.

[jimmy neutron]

Wierd thing is that Windows only "sees" 2 channels! All the way up to 24/192! For some reason there is no 5.1 setting like I remember there used to be. Maybe it has something to do with the Creative Audio panel taking over. From here I select 5.1 channels and Dolby Digital out on SPDIF. On my Family Room HTPC the digital output is directly on the motherboard so there is no soundcard and control panel other than the Windows one. Here it shows up to 7.1 output. So for anyone having issues with getting the correct number of speakers it would be best to know if you have a Windows digital output on the mobo or if you're running it off a soundcard.

I'm real picky when it comes to my HTPC's. I won't play games on them, nor surf the web, or even download movies in various formats. I use my HTPC's strictly as a digital music player only - as in my 2 channel system downstairs, or as a HTPC for CD and DVD/BluRay rips only for the other 2. I like it simple, powering the PC up and automatically loading MC and ready to watch a movie. Less stuff to go wrong, and the user experience is hightened. I need to have every item tagged, labled, and cover art'd correctly. It just irks me that the little things can throw off the entire fun of the process. If I have to switch settings, or launch programs, or do anything that takes MC out of being transparent then it just becomes a PC playing movies. I don't want that. I want a complete media center controlling my media. Anything less would be just an XBMC, or WMC, or some other cheap media center.

What I like about MC is that it just works - right out of the box - with no other plug-ins, programs, codecs, etc to worry about. My kids can power up the PC and in 30 seconds they are navigating Theater View for a movie. Nothing breaks. I've used literally every other media center for the PC, and while some are prettier, or can do more things, it seems that the constant maintenance was becoming a full time job for me. In the last 2 months that I've had MC16 on my Family HTPC ( with my kids, wife, freinds, family, CONSTANTLY using it) it has never, NOT ONCE, freaked out. That is awesome. You set it, and forget it.  

I do wish more attention would be paid to the Theater View, as I believe the core functionality of MC is pretty much already done. If Theater View could be made with a bit more user customization, or if the Theme Maker program was a bit easier to use, I think MC would take a leap to another level in the game. These are, of course just sugesstions, but I think many Theater View users would agree - make it more customizable.

I thank everyone who helped me in fixing my issue - "Thanks". Glynor, Mat, JimH, Alex to name a few.

Latitude:29.530959°
 
Longitude:-98.520538°

See ya'll round!  

Jimmy

[glynor]

Yep.  The Creative driver is handling it for you.

Since I'm running it off of the HDMI out of my video card, I don't have such fancy controls (though, I also don't have to deal with clunky, ugly drivers from Creative, so there's that).

[pcstockton]

If Theater View could be made with a bit more user customization, or if the Theme Maker program was a bit easier to use,

I totally agree yet cant stop thinking those two things are typically mutually exclusive.

-patrick

[JimH]

Latitude:29.530959°
 
Longitude:-98.520538°

See ya'll round! 

Jimmy

Looks like the NE suburbs of San Antonio.  We'll be packing up the Winnebago next week.