Topic: Playing 192kHz and 96kHz Hi res files (Read 24868 times)

secretgardener · « **on:** February 01, 2012, 02:05:32 pm »

I have been running Media Center for several years and recently upgraded to MC 17 with no problems. I am particularly drawn to the shared library which I run from a NAS with several computers referring to it. MC is a great system which gets better with each release

My reason for posting is to ask why my few hires files are not being played at their native resolution. My initial settings back in the days of using MC14 were via ASIO4ALL. I have recently added the Musical Fidelity V-Link192 to drive my Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 dac and have installed the supplied ASIO drivers onto the netbook that is connected to the V-Link. The audio settings on the notebook are set to use those drivers and in MC17 the ASIO setting has been selected to use the MF ASIO drivers rather than the standard ASIO setting.

Having read other posts here I have activated the DSP studio, but have not altered any of the output frequencies. I see that when playing back both 96kHz and 192kHz files downloaded from the Linn and AIX sites, that the source frequency is showing as 48kHz/64bit only. I have left the bitdepth at the Source Bitdepth setting as I see from the note that with ASIO it will only utilise the native bitdepth.

The same 48kHz frequency output is showing on the LED on the V-Link.

1. Should I also install the supplied ASIO drivers onto the NAS in order to replay the tracks at their native resolution?

2. Or are their other settings issues within MC17 that I need to configure?

Any help would be greatly appreciated before I grow worried that the downloads from Linn and AIX are only being made at 48kHz

Paul

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2012, 02:22:46 pm »

Welcome to the forum.

If the files show as 48Khz in MC, that is probably what they are. They are probably not 64bit.

When you use ASIO, you should always use the ASIO driver from the manufacturer.

secretgardener · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2012, 06:25:24 pm »

Thanks for the advice.

I appreciate that the bitrate shown of 64 is the maximum available in MC17 and it is not applicable anyway when using ASIO which will only play the native bitrate.

I have now installed the ASIO drivers supplied by MF on the NAS as the library server and configured the edition of MC17 that is on the NAS so that the correct drivers are used.

Switching back to the netbook and replaying the hires files out through MC17 as client still shows them at 48kHz.

Hard to believe that the Studiomaster versions of files from Linn are only 48kHz when I have downloaded both 96kHz and 192kHz albums on separate occasions (and paid for them as Studiomaster versions).

Has anyone else come across this?

Paul

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2012, 06:28:04 pm »

I'm not sure what you mean by "the edition of MC17 that is on the NAS". Normally a NAS is a network drive, not a Windows PC.

The file size should tell you something about the bitrate. How big are they? And how many minutes?

Alex B · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2012, 07:03:37 pm »

Is the actual chain as follows?

1. The files are on a "remote" PC machine (not on a Network Access Storage aka NAS device). An MC17 instance on this machine has the audio files imported to its media library and it runs Library Server.

2. The "netbook" runs its own MC17 instance. This MC instance has loaded the server library from the remote MC17 instance. It plays the files to a locally connected USB audio device (Musical Fidelity V-Link192). You have installed the Musical Fidelity ASIO driver on the netbook's operating system and MC has been configured to use this ASIO driver.

3. The Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 DAC receives audio from the V-Link192 device through S/PDIF.

Regarding the source file format, it would be rather odd if it would not be the advertised format, but of course accidents can happen. To inspect the files on the server machine you can use the so called "tag dump". It can show the file properties by reading the file header directly. You can find instructions here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59513.msg430491#msg430491

secretgardener · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2012, 07:13:32 am »

Many thanks for your advice

The chain is as follows

Quote

1. The files are on a "remote" PC machine (not on a Network Access Storage aka NAS device). An MC17 instance on this machine has the audio files imported to its media library and it runs Library Server.

The files are on a RipNAS Statement which runs on Windows Home Server 2007. Apart from the dbpoweramp software which it came with there is relatively little software installed, except MC 17 and the original ASIO4ALL and the newly installed MF ASIO drivers (which I think come from Thesycon). It is the MF ASIO Thesycon driver that has been selected in the appropriate Audio Output settings page in MC17.

Quote

2. The "netbook" runs its own MC17 instance. This MC instance has loaded the server library from the remote MC17 instance. It plays the files to a locally connected USB audio device (Musical Fidelity V-Link192). You have installed the Musical Fidelity ASIO driver on the netbook's operating system and MC has been configured to use this ASIO driver.

Yes this is correct. I admit that my understanding of the relationship between these two networked computers both running MC17 with Library Server running from the RipNAS is hazy. If the files are being 'played out' from the Library Server with merely the selection of tracks and playlists taking place on the netbook, then possibly the problem lies with the compatibility of the MF ASIO driver and Windows Home Server on the remote host.

If this is the case then have I reached a dead end trying to combine a Windows Home Server based server and utilising MC Library Server on 'audio only' local computers that connect initially via USB to a hifi DAC?

Quote

3. The Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 21 DAC receives audio from the V-Link192 device through S/PDIF.

Exactly. The V-Link 192 is a usb/S/PDIF converter. The Tri-Vista has only a S/PDIF input hence the V-Link. I am currently considering a DAC replacement but nearly all under consideration are using the Thesycon driver to overcome the lack of native Windows support over 96kHz.

I am very comfortable with the Windows and MC environment running FLAC files and do not intend to switch to Apple to deal with long-term hires playback.

I have checked the source file format as you suggest. The files from AIX are showing as 96kHz and those from Linn either 96kHz or 192kHz as purchased when viewed through the tag. When viewed in DSP Studio Output Format they show as source 48kHz when the file is playing.

Finally just a note to say that I am using the beta version of MC17 0 33 0 and perhaps I need to reinstall the current release if there are downsampling issues that affected the release I am using?

Thank you.

Paul

wormdazzler · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:32:38 am »

Hi, I've entered this discussion as I have just recently set up a Laptop PC (Windows 7 / 32 bit) - V-Link 192 - Musical Fidelity M1 DAC source stream into my Hi-Fi. PC to V-Link 192 is standard USBA to USBB connector. V-Link 192 to M1 DAC is Black Rhodium Rondo coaxial (under review).

I installed the MF driver for the V-Link 192 and made sure Windows uses it as its default driver. I am also using JRiver's MC17 as the player and followed the JRiverWiki recommended settings: WASAPI Event Style, all sources bitdepth 24bit.

However, when it comes to the DSP Studio output sample rate - the options are considerable. Logically I started off with "No Change" but all this does is pass the source material through with little or no discerable benefit (or loss). The temptation is to let JRiver MC output the material at higher sample rates. Up to 96k most (but not all) of my recordings show improvements with a tendancy to increase the soundstage in particular.

Outputting from JRiver MC at 96k shows up on the V-Link 192 unsurprisingly as 96k, but is aparently upscales by the M1 DAC to 192. However the effect of this is quite different from asking the JR MC to output at 192. In this case the V-Link shows a 192 input and presumably passes that along to the M1 DAC. You would think that would not be so different from the previous scenario - but it certainly is. This time the soundstage is enormous but at the expense of what I would best describe as cohesion.

Since the V-Link 192 is new on the market there is little information or experience to draw on, but I would welcome other users experiences in homing in onthe best way to set this up. As previous posts have said - the variability of recordings and the suspect nature of some of the claimed 24/96 and 24/192 material does little to help in arriving at the optimum solution.

Paul T.

dtc · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:09:01 pm »

Within MC 17 on the Netbook, look at the tags for the tracks and see what the sample rates and bit depths are. That should confirm if the files are 24/96 or 24/192 or not.

Do 16/44 tracks show up as 48 KHz and on the V-link LED? If those show 48 KHz the problem is more than just the files.

First , check that Windows is set to pass 96 and 192 KHz through the V link. The Windows default might be 48KHz only. You can check these settings from Control Panel - Sound - Properties. The 48KHz could be coming from the sample rate from the Netbook audio system. Try disabling the Netbook native sound device. Also, set up the V link to allow applications to take exclusive access of the device.

secretgardener · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2012, 06:39:59 pm »

Hi dtc,

I have checked the tags and the files are either 24/96kHz or 24/192kHz as they should be.

On 14/44.1kHz tracks it is the 44.1kHz LED that lights on the V-Link so there is no problem there.

I have tried pushing the output up in DSP Studio, just to see what happens. Outputting at 96kHz lights the relevant LED and audio is fine. At 192kHz the LED lights but there is no sound output. I must admit I was not expecting to use the DSP Studio to alter the frequency so I have only noted what happens, rather than experimenting with both CD rips and hires files to see if the results are always the same.

The netbook is running XP and the Sounds options are a little different from the settings you have suggested. I recognise your options from Vista but I have tried similar changes in XP.

I have tried it with the Realtek motherboard sound device disabled as well as enabled, and there are no differences. It is the 'V-Link 192 Audio 2.0 Output' that is set as the default device for Playback in Sounds so I am not surprised that altering the Realtek settings makes for no change.

What continues to puzzle me is why the hires files show as 48kHz in the Source box in DSP Studio when viewing MC17 on the netbook - although they show as 96/192 files in the tags.

secretgardener · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2012, 07:05:31 pm »

A follow up having played around in the Thesycon USB Audio Class Driver Control Panel.

At the outset I set the USB Streaming option to 'Safe' and the ASIO Buffer size to 2048 samples.

And I saw the Device page showing the Current Sample Rate at 192kHz and the Clock Source page returning 'V-link 192 Internal Clock (stable 192kHz)'

Playing CD rips alters the displayed rate to 44.1kHz.

But playing hires files pushes this page to return 'V-link 192 Internal Clock (stable 48kHz)' and given the Asynchronous usb connection that could explain what I am seeing in DSP Studio which is being dictated by the V-Link.

I have set the Buffer size to 8192 samples and played around with the USB Streaming options but it remains at 'V-link 192 Internal Clock (stable 48kHz)'

Indeed the Current Sample Rate remains and the LED remains lit even once MC17 is closed and the only way to free that locked setting is to disconnect and reconnect the V-Link, when it reverts to 192kHz with no frequency LED lit until streaming is restarted.

Any thoughts on the correct configuration for the ASIO Control panel settings?

bruce.weiland · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:24:28 pm »

secretgardener.

I can't comment on the 48k problem, but I CAN tell you why you can't play 192.

The TriVista21 DAC will not accept 192.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.musicalfidelity.com%2Fdownloads%2Farchived-manuals%2FEnglish%2Ftri21_eng.pdf

See page 6. It will accept 8to108kHz and 16, 20, 24 bits.

I had one for years and loved it.

I have moved on to an EE MiniMax Plus.

Bruce

dtc · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:55:33 pm »

I cannot help on ASIO. It has been a long time since I used it. Have you tried Kernal Streaming instead of ASIO? That might help understand if it is an ASIO issue or something else.

secretgardener · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2012, 07:13:49 am »

Thanks for helping

Quote

I can't comment on the 48k problem, but I CAN tell you why you can't play 192. Smiley

The TriVista21 DAC will not accept 192. Sad

Understood and it might spur me towards the next DAC upgrade. The EE is on the list of possibles but the list is headed by the April Music Eximus DP1 (if only the UK distributor would bring some in)

Quote

I cannot help on ASIO. It has been a long time since I used it. Have you tried Kernal Streaming instead of ASIO? That might help understand if it is an ASIO issue or something else.

The V-Link 192 is designed to run with the supplied ASIO drivers, although it is possible to run with WASAPI configured in JRiver. At the moment I propose to try and sort out the netbook playback as originally planned rather than start swapping the playback computer.

I remain baffled by the way that the V-Link and MC17 lock only at 48kHz.

Bearing in mind that the TriVista will not accept above 108kHz I have experimented with both 88.2kHz and 96kHz files. Both come up as replaying in MC17 at 48kHz and that is the LED that lights on the V-Link as soon as the track starts.

The set up PDF from MF states "The actual V-Link 192 hardware has separate high precision clocks for multiples of 44100Hz and 48000Hz, respectively; the appropriate selection is made automatically by the firmware and is not directly controlled by the USB driver."

With the V-Link showing a current rate of 192kHz before starting MC17 (and with that LED lit) playing a 88.2kHz file immediately shows the current file as playing at 48kHz (and that is the LED that is lit).

MF states "Neither the USB driver nor the V-Link 192 do any sample-rate conversion. Audio will always be played in its native sample rate, as stored on the computer".

Therefore the sample rate conversion must surely be happening in MC17, downsampling 88.2kHz files to 48kHz?

otherwise if the V-Link were in control via the Asynchronous usb link it would be the 44.1kHz LED that would light up as a the source file requires the sample to be clocked at a multiple of that.

Have the experts at JRiver any further views as to what is happening here? Is this just a MF bug for the Thesycon driver implementation they have chosen, or are there other Thesycon driver issues out there affecting other DACS possibly including the Eximus DP1 I hope to review soon?

Paul

secretgardener · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2012, 07:34:45 am »

Incidentally these last efforts were made with DSP Studio switched off in MC17 in the hope of implementing as little processing as possible.

In the netbook the Realtek is disabled in the Sound properties, I am not just relying on the Default setting which has been selected for the V-Link as the default device. So hopefully there is no unwanted audio processing taking place inside the netbook.

Paul

secretgardener · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2012, 03:24:05 am »

secretgardener · « **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2012, 12:00:11 pm »

Playing at 48kHz is an issue which originates in the netbook.

I tried another dac, The HRT Streamer ll+ and witnessed the same problems when connected via the netbook.

Connecting either the MF V-Link192 or the HRT directly to the RipNAS results in both 88.2kHz and 96kHz files replaying at their native rate and showing as such on both DSP Studio and on the LEDs on the relevant usb device.

Given that both the RipNAS and the netbook run on Atom processors I will have to look into why the netbook is limited to 48kHz ?. Maybe it is a RAM issue as the RipNAS has 2GB whilst the netbook has only 1GB.

Thanks to all of you who replied with answers.

Paul

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2012, 01:10:05 pm »

Quote from: secretgardener on February 06, 2012, 12:00:11 pm

Playing at 48kHz is an issue which originates in the netbook.
Given that both the RipNAS and the netbook run on Atom processors I will have to look into why the netbook is limited to 48kHz ?. Maybe it is a RAM issue as the RipNAS has 2GB whilst the netbook has only 1GB.

Don’t waste your time
The big difference is that the netbook runs XP, the others not.
This rules out using WASAPI on the netbook.

A first might be to try the V-link on XP without any additional third party drivers.
XP should be able to do automatic sample rate switching.
But I must admit my knowledge of XP is a bit dated.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/HastalaVista.html

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2012, 01:17:23 pm »

To isolated the problem
Download Thesycon USB Descriptor Dumper
http://www.thesycon.com/deu/usb_descriptordumper.shtml
Connect the V-link to XP
Check the sample rates supported

dtc · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2012, 03:19:56 pm »

I can reproduce the problem on XP using a M2Tech HiFace (44-192 KHz). I can get 44 KHz files to play correctly, but 96 KHz files play at 48 KHz. The interesting thing is to look at DSP Studio. For the 96 KHz files it says that the INPUT is 48 KHz, as is the output (no up sampling in DSP studio) Why would the input be changed? I checked the tag on the track and it clearly states that the Sample Rate is 96 KHz. In Playing Now the album listing displays Sample Rate as 96 KHz. I assume this is what comes directly from the library. But I also display Sample Rate in the Display at the top of Playing Now and it says 48 KHz. Somehow sample rate has been changed. Note - DSP studio has all the sample rates set to do no re-sampling.

So, I set DSP studio to upscale to 96KHz. DSP studio now shows that the output is re-sampled to 96 KHz and the output is now at 96KHz. (I hooked the output up to a receiver that displays the input rate). I then set re-sampling to 192 KHz and the receiver shows a 192 KHz input signal.

So, in my case, both 96 KHz and 192 KHz are being output from the XP system to the receiver, but only if I upsample to that. 96 KHz files are, for some reason, being downsampled to 48 KHz.

This makes no sense to me, but that is what I am seeing.

Further investigate - the above tests were done with a remote library server from another systems (running Windows 7). When I loaded the same file to the local library from the local disk, the 96 KHz file worked fine, just as expected.

It appears that the file loaded down from the remote library server for some reason was downsampled to 48 KHz. I also tried using the local library and placing the 96 KHzfile on a disk shared over the network and that also worked fine. It appears that the issue I am seeing comes when sharing a file through a library server on another system. That other system was a Netbook, so maybe it is picking up the 48 KHz from the Netbook sound device and that is all that is being sent to the playing system. Somewhat complex, but I think that is what is happening.

To test if you are seeing the same problem, try 2 things. First, simply up-sample on of the files that plays at 48KHz to 96 KHz and see if the V-link sees it as 96 KHz. If so, the ASIO and V-link are working correctly. Then import a 96KHz file into a LOCAL library and try that.

secretgardener · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2012, 06:01:09 pm »

Thank you both

Quote

To isolated the problem
Download Thesycon USB Descriptor Dumper
http://www.thesycon.com/deu/usb_descriptordumper.shtml
Connect the V-link to XP
Check the sample rates supported

I will check and see where it takes me.

Quote

To test if you are seeing the same problem, try 2 things. First, simply up-sample on of the files that plays at 48KHz to 96 KHz and see if the V-link sees it as 96 KHz. If so, the ASIO and V-link are working correctly. Then import a 96KHz file into a LOCAL library and try that.

I have not tried playing a 96kHz file from the local library yet - but I have up-sampled in DSP Studio and I get the same result as you - the V-Link receives 96kHz in the same way as your receiver.

And we both get this same situation when using Library Server to a client netbook and you have noticed exactly the same details that I have seen.

I concluded that the netbook was the issue - but only because there are no downsampling issues when playing directly from the Library Server computer into either dac at 96kHz -without considering that the problem may remain something in the Library Server/client structure.

I need to try the netbook with a 96kHz file directly to see if it plays without downsampling. I have tried disabling all internal sound devices to allow only the V-Link to act as an external soundcard, but an experiment will prove it one way or another.

I will return shortly with an update.

Paul

secretgardener · « **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2012, 08:05:44 am »

I have repeated the experiments conducted by dtc with the following results.

88.2kHz and 96kHz files when played directly from my RipNAS are shown as playing at the relevant resolution, this is confirmed by the source information on the DSP Studio page, and the correct LED lights on whichever dac I am using (HRT Streamer ll+ 2011 model or MF V-Link192 into MF Trivista 21)
The same is true when the files are played from a local library on my netbook into either dac
But when the netbook plays 88.2 and 96 files remotely using Library Server those files are downsampling to 48kHz

This left me agreeing with dtc that the native sample rate frequency is being changed in the Library Server structure.

Again following the experiment tried by dtc I then checked the Output Format setting in DSP Studio to activate it and against the 48kHz input I set a higher rate of either 88.2 or 96 in the output.

The files show on the dac LED at the selected output rate, whilst the current file playback and the source in DSP studio remain at 48kHz.

So my question for the MC17 experts remains as it has been for a week - why are hires files obtained via Library Server being delivered at a reduced sample rate of 48kHz?

I do understand the view of Alex, expressed in other replies that these frequencies matter only to dogs, but I just want to understand how to configure MC17 to play natively using Library Server.

Paul

dtc · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2012, 09:25:07 am »

Seems like you got the same results that I did. I did repeat the experiment with Windows 7 only systems (no XP) and got the same results. Note this has all been done with wireless connections.

I tried plugging my HiFace into the server then connected the client to the library server on the server system while the server was playing a 96 KHz track, to see if it server would then send a 96 KHz data stream. But, the client still showed a 48 KHz input.

I do not know of any settings that would account for this behavior, but maybe there are some. I keep my files directly on the playback system to avoid network issues, so have not come across this before.

It may be that the remote library server connection just does not deal with hi rez data streams. If that is the case, you would have to build a local library pointing to the files on the NAS. That would avoid the library server issue. Hopefully one of the experts can provide more insight.

dtc · « **Reply #22 on:** February 07, 2012, 10:00:07 am »

Try this on your client. Options - Media Network -Client Options - Audio Conversions - Conversions : Don't Convert Audio.

I think that will fix the problem. Mine was set to Convert if necessary. Not sure why MC thinks conversion is "necessary". I changed it on both my client and my server. I have only done minimal testing, but it seems to allow 96 KHz data streams. I did not realize it had would convert library server files like this.

Good luck!

secretgardener · « **Reply #23 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:24:57 am »

Hi dtc

Quote

I did repeat the experiment with Windows 7 only systems (no XP) and got the same results.

And I also repeated the experiment with Windows Vista with the output mode set to WASAPI Event Mode. Everything on the LAN is wired. I got the same result as you - downsampling persists.

Quote

Try this on your client. Options - Media Network -Client Options - Audio Conversions - Conversions : Don't Convert Audio.

I think that will fix the problem. Mine was set to Convert if necessary. Not sure why MC thinks conversion is "necessary". I changed it on both my client and my server. I have only done minimal testing, but it seems to allow 96 KHz data streams. I did not realize it had would convert library server files like this.

And it works for me as well on both the XP based netbook and the Vista based computer even when I made the changes on the client only and not on the server.

Well done for finding those additional settings pages

(that I have never seen referred to by the MC experts who tend to direct settings issues to the DSP Studio options.)

I can now return the RipNAS to headless and return to normality with hires files.

Many thanks for all your help in sorting this out. I doubt that we will be the last ones to be baffled by the required settings and hopefully we can post a quick reply next time.

Paul

dtc · « **Reply #24 on:** February 07, 2012, 11:30:56 am »

Paul

Glad it worked. I was just looking for possible settings and remembered that one, although I do not know why it works in this case. It wasy a shot in the dark.

Enjoy.

Tom

Laramy · « **Reply #25 on:** April 25, 2012, 08:09:24 pm »

I was having the same problem with my client HTPC pulling hi res files from the media server, but playing them at 48KHz. I copied a hi res file to the local hard drive of the HTPC, and it played in 96KHz like it should.
I then wandered around the tools/options/media network settings until I stumbled on audio conversion, and found this to work:

On the client computer, go to tools/options/media network/client options/audio conversion, and set Conversion to "Don't convert" and Encoder to "Uncompressed - 24 bit"

Automatic file conversion downgrades high bitrate files to low bitrate files to prevent skipping. This is not needed on a 100baseT home network, unless there is a lot of other high bandwidth activity in your household. The Encoder setting determines how this downgrading takes place.

I spent a day and a half trying to figure this one out.

dtc · « **Reply #26 on:** April 26, 2012, 08:07:14 am »

Laramy - glad you finally found it. It is an obscure setting, especially for new users. I would like to see the default set to Don't Convert rather than the obscure "If Necessary", which implies there is some sort of analysis done to determine whether down sampling is truly necessary. Noting this conversion in the Audio Path display box would also help alert people when this conversion is being done. I wonder how many people are listening to their 96KHz music as down converted 48KHz music without even knowing it? If the option is set to Never and the connection cannot handle it, people get noise or skipping and can go looking for a solution. If set to If Necessary then most people never know that this conversion is being done and do not look for a way to turn it off. A couple of quick changes would save people like you from a day + of troubleshooting. Note that the OP spent a many days trying to figure this out.

David593 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 16, 2014, 09:08:03 am »

Thank you everyone from December 2014 MC20 on a Mac client where my high res files were coming through as 43.1k rather than 96k from a MC19 windows server Thank you I would never have found the setting without you!!

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Author Topic: Playing 192kHz and 96kHz Hi res files (Read 24868 times)