Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Matt]

I'm hoping to sneak line-in playback into the program at some point.

The goal would be to allow the full audio engine to work on something like a vinyl player, SACD player, or other analog input.

If we only have time to add WASAPI or ASIO line-in support, which would be a better choice?

ASIO seems to be the more common input for low-latency recording, but WASAPI probably works with more devices.

Thoughts?

[MerlinWerks]

Hmmm... Link 

For me, any recording I would do would not be live, so the low-latency associated with ASIO wouldn't be much of a factor.
Unless I'm completely missing something.
Which is entirely possible...

[hulkss]

I would like to be able to play a game console (PS3) through the JRiver audio/video engine. Input to my HTPC through a Hauppauge Colossus card along with the video was my idea of what might work. I would also like to be able to connect a satellite or cable TV box somehow.

I would also like to be able to direct the measurement signal from Room EQ Wizard out through the audio engine (ASIO) and take the microphone measurement back in from the same audio device and into Room EQ Wizard.

The measurement software works normally, the measurement signal just passes through JRiver DSP on the way out. I would direct the signal to one of the eight 7.1 channels at a time. The microphone measurement would come back in and be passed through to the measurement program (REW).

[bunglemebaby]

ASIO seems to be the more common input for low-latency recording, but WASAPI probably works with more devices.

In my experience, this sums it up pretty well.
From what I've seen around here JRiver (or it users, I forget which) discourages use of ASIO4ALL, which is commonly suggested for people who intend to do any "time sensitive" recording. I'm not really familiar with how much delay WASAPI drivers will add, but in terms of something like a turntable, I can't see it making any difference. In terms of something like a video game console though, there would be some problems with any significant delay.

[Frobozz]

I'd think that most audio interfaces that have a good ADC will also have ASIO drivers.  Certainly anything at the home studio or professional audio level.  And there's devices like the Creative E-MU stuff that does well with ASIO but doesn't behave as well with WASAPI.

I vote for ASIO. 

[)p(]

I vote for wasapi. Offers the same quality but is better supported and native to windows itself.

[Skogkatt]

My vote goes for ASIO.

I'd think that most audio interfaces that have a good ADC will also have ASIO drivers.  Certainly anything at the home studio or professional audio level.  And there's devices like the Creative E-MU stuff that does well with ASIO but doesn't behave as well with WASAPI.

I vote for ASIO. 

I second that...

[TheLion]

I'd think that most audio interfaces that have a good ADC will also have ASIO drivers.  Certainly anything at the home studio or professional audio level.  And there's devices like the Creative E-MU stuff that does well with ASIO but doesn't behave as well with WASAPI.

I vote for ASIO.  

I strongly second that. Especially audio interfaces which are geared towards ADC all come with ASIO driver support. And low latency is essential with applications like gaming consoles, TV from external receivers (or karaoke if anybody is still doing that ;-)

ASIO all the way if you have to choose one.

This is a HUGE feature and can even be a game changer imho!

[Mitchco]

+ 1 ASIO for low latency.  ASIO is standard in Pro Audio.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output  My Lynx L22 card uses native ASIO driver for DAC and ADC.

[stealth82]

+1 for ASIO

[Sgucci99]

I personally prefer ASIO, as in my system it sounds slightly better than WASAPI

Regards

[nwboater]

ASIO for sure, for many of the reasons mentioned above, especially REW in our case.. On our soundcard, the Asus Essence ST, only ASIO will automatically change sample rates. I gather that WASAPI does not automatically change sample rates on other cards as well. If true that should be a game breaker for WASAPI.

Thanks very much Matt for your pursuit of this much needed improvement to MC.

Rod

[Matt]

I gather that WASAPI does not automatically change sample rates on other cards as well.

That seems to depend on the hardware.

For example, many USB DACs switch with WASAPI exclusive, but Creative and ASUS cards do not.

[vairulez]

+1 for Asio

[drmimosa]

ASIO gets my vote. There is a lot of inexpensive gear that will allow for audio in through ASIO...I've had a Behringer UCA202 on my short list for a while.

Will ASIO work also with laptop RCA-mini inputs? Also, will this input allow MC to record incoming audio streams?

Thanks for working on this feature!

[mojave]

I've never had the need for an input (besides mic), but if I did I would choose ASIO. I'm more interested in the virtual audio device driver that has been mentioned in the past.

If you have an audio device with multiple inputs, then ASIO would let you select which inputs to use. At least that is how the ASIO driver in REW works when selecting the mic input. If WASAPI only selects the first stereo pair, then that would be another thing in favor of ASIO.

[TheLion]

I'm more interested in the virtual audio device driver that has been mentioned in the past.

Ahh...the virtual audio device driver idea. It all works together. Imagine JRiver audio engine with line-in playback and the new convolution as virtual audio device. Suddenly each and every source (JRiver playback, all other applications/games through the virtual soundcard, and all external sources through line-in playback) can be routed through JRiver and all its DSP features. GAME CHANGER!

[NickF]

Ahh...the virtual audio device driver idea. It all works together. Imagine JRiver audio engine with line-in playback and the new convolution as virtual audio device. Suddenly each and every source (JRiver playback, all other applications/games through the virtual soundcard, and all external sources through line-in playback) can be routed through JRiver and all its DSP features. GAME CHANGER!

Absolutely.  For me, this is far more important than just a line input.  JRiver would need to behave like an audio renderer as far as any other app is concerned.   Excellent idea!

Nick

[uli-67]

yes;

thatīs the feature i hoped for so long,

I vote for ASIO

:-) uli

[Frobozz]

That seems to depend on the hardware.

For example, many USB DACs switch with WASAPI exclusive, but Creative and ASUS cards do not.

The Creative E-MU USB 0204 doesn't either.  I use ASIO with the E-MU because of that.

My old M-Audio FW410 is fine with either ASIO or WASAPI for both recording and playback.

[Matt]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I expect basic support for ASIO line-in playback to appear in a week or two.

This feature should allow playing from a vinyl player, SACD player, iPod, or any other device through the audio engine and connected sound system.

It is also a first step towards the virtual soundcard idea proposed above.  For this, if anyone is, or knows, a WDM audio driver programmer, I'd love to pick their brain.  I'm matt at jriver dot com.

[justsomeguy]

Really liking this idea.

Will I be able to bring in an AC3 stream over spdif input and have MC decode and run it through the dsp?

[Matt]

Will I be able to bring in an AC3 stream over spdif input and have MC decode and run it through the dsp?

No, sorry.  Analog (PCM) only for now.

[sbrewin]

No, sorry.  Analog (PCM) only for now.

I assume you mean stereo (PCM)? Which is good, but the ability to process an AC3 input stream is the real deal.

[rlebrette]

It is also a first step towards the virtual soundcard idea proposed above.  For this, if anyone is, or knows, a WDM audio driver programmer, I'd love to pick their brain.  I'm matt at jriver dot com.

I never implemented Audio WDM but I spent some time to study USB drivers, the Windows DDK contains a bunch of examples (audio drivers are part of it), I you didn't check it yet, here's the download site http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=11800

[ccclapp]

"Ahh...the virtual audio device driver idea. It all works together. Imagine JRiver audio engine with line-in playback and the new convolution as virtual audio device. Suddenly each and every source (JRiver playback, all other applications/games through the virtual soundcard, and all external sources through line-in playback) can be routed through JRiver and all its DSP features. GAME CHANGER"

Yes,yes!,

I am just getting into jrmc room correction and would love to do it all in software for all sources. For me it's mainly PC sources eg mog Spotify etc I want to route through jrmc room correction on the way to my Mytek stereo192 DAC, as I prefer not to use hardware ad/da after this DAC

I'll keep my fingers crossed...

Thanks for all the features!

[Matt]

I never implemented Audio WDM but I spent some time to study USB drivers, the Windows DDK contains a bunch of examples (audio drivers are part of it), I you didn't check it yet, here's the download site http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=11800

My specific question is how to best handle latency.

Imagine that a user uses convolution with a 200 ms latency.

Can the virtual driver make the system have proper lip-sync just by reporting 200ms from the head as the DMA buffer position, or will this lead to other problems?

[Matt]

As a disclaimer, doing ASIO input on a card may prevent doing output on the same card.

It appears that many ASIO drivers don't nicely support multiple instances talking to them, and we use one instance for input and one for output.  For these drivers, we would need to merge the input and output together into a single plugin.  This is a large change, so won't happen soon.

[Matt]

The latest build supports playback from ASIO using File > Open URL... > live://asio

You will need to use a different device for output / playback than you're using for input.

[uli-67]

hello Matt,
I tested the ASIO input function, and the sound is heavy distorted,
(the same sound when you play with two audio-players at the same time into the same ASIO-device)
I changed the sample rates (96/24 -  192/24) and buffer sizes,
reinstalled MC17 but both had no effect.

my Configuration:
 - MC17 play out with integrated convolving extension (ASIO) -> RME-HDSP32 out  with AES-EBU ->
   -> DAC extern -> Amp
 - Analog in: LP -> Phono-Pre -> Terratec 6fire USB -> ASIO out in MC17 (live://asio)

do you have any idea?

thanks,
:-) uli

[Matt]

uli, what happens if you reduce the audio buffering in Options > Audio > Output mode settings... to something small like 0.1 seconds?

[uli-67]

hello Matt,
yes! thatīs the point, the ASIO-buffer settings in MC-17,
I canged only the buffersizes of the soundcards.

After testing I think the best settings are, small in MC-17
and maximum in extern soundcards, see screens below.




Thank you very much Matt,
now I can enjoy my vinyl with convolving, perfect!!!

:-) uli

[ccclapp]

Hi

At the moment I don't have the required coundcards cards to test myself. Is this working now? Is it successfully handling external sources?

I note analog input only in the description above.  It ones sound card does the d/a conversion, can that analog then be input to jrmc?  If not, would using Console, or Jack or something enable souch routing?

How many input channels can be used? 2 or 5.1 analog?

Thanks again for jrmc being the best player in the universe!

[Bill Kearney]

This might seem like an oddball question, but could I use this as a way to get audio from an external radio tuner into MC?  If so, any ideas on how I might use this as means to tell an external program to change channels based on selecting something as a track in MC?  I'm thinking I'd create a Playlist that contained only the stations.  The trick would be in either having MC kick out an external cmd line or have something 'watching' MC for the playlist being used.

Or might there be some entirely better way to handle this?  I'm looking to be able to control the play-through of the stations in the same manner as how playlist items are handled.  With gizmo, jremote and the like.  

[Matt]

@Is this working
Yes.  Normally it requires two soundcards -- one for input, and one for output.

@Channels
Any number of channels is supported.  It's only limited by the hardware.

@Radio
Playback should work.  I don't know about the tuning -- you'll have to get inventive for that.

[ccclapp]

Will digital inputs come in the near future and if so, how about multi-channel spdif eg tivo, TV tuner, etc?

Thanks

[dmm]

This looks like a great upcoming feature.  I know that development is just starting, but I thought I might get my thoughts on how it might be used (at least for me).

For my setup, I would like to use the feature to simulate a high end 2 channel preamp with HT bypass similar to a Parasound 2100 (http://www.parasound.com/nc/2100.php).  I use the preouts on my AVR to external amps currently and would like to insert my Hometheater PC/MC17 setup in between the AVR and the power amps to my front channel speakers.

Features:

1.  MC17 set to autorun at windows startup with MC17 Line In monitoring set.
2.  Default to "HT Bypass" which disables all MC17 processing and just passes line in to preset default line out thru MC17 minimizing latency to insure best integration with AVR processing and the rest of 7.1 channels.  Volume control can also be disabled in MC17 since volume will be controlled by AVR.
3.  Once end user begins playing music via MC17, line in can automatically be muted and full control of the output is under MC17 control, volume control, DSP, convolution, etc, etc.
4.  Once end user selected MC17 music playback is stopped, return to "HT Bypass" mode as described in step 2.

JRiver, thanks for all the work to bring new functionality to MC!

[ccclapp]

Why would you disable dsp/room correction for external sources?
Isn't it less good to use volume in jrmc than analog volume control for best sound quality?

[Matt]

Isn't it less good to use volume in MC than analog volume control for best sound quality?

Often Internal Volume is the best possible volume.

More here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume#Picking_Between_System_Volume_and_Internal_Volume

[dmm]

Why would you disable dsp/room correction for external sources?
Isn't it less good to use volume in MC than analog volume control for best sound quality?

For best quality 2 channel listening  I DO want to use MC17 volume and DSP features.  

However, for HT 7.1 listening, I prefer to allow my AVR to decode the audio, do all the audio/video switching, use audyssey dynamic EQ and volume features and have MC17 features bypassed.  The key reason for my request for HT bypass functionality is to minimize the switching/cabling issues of switching between 2 channel MC17 music and 7.1 channel AVR controlled movie and game listening modes.

[sKiZo]

Yet another +1 for ASIO ... with the caveat that all ASIO isn't created equal. I tried ASIO4ALL and the output was crackly and distorted. Went to Behringer and downloaded an ASIO driver specifically built for the breakout box I'm using and am getting excellent results - far better than the vanilla drivers built into Windows XP. Worth noting - VERY important to uninstall any ASIO drivers prior to trying another ... they don't all play well together.

Back to the vinyl thing - I take it JRiver doesn't do vinyl rips gracefully yet? I'm currently ripping to raw WAV using another program, cleaning up the tracks a bit and saving them individually. I was planning to convert those to FLAC 8 using JRiver or another standalone program. A bulk conversion feature would be nice.

Question ... if I use the same folder structure JRiver uses, and supply an album name, track name, and track number in a monitored folder, will the album be automagically added to the playlists? Also, will the online lookup be smart enough to fill in the blanks?

[dmm]

Any updates on the line-in feature?

I know that it is functional in the current version, but will the feature be enhanced or updated even further in the coming builds?

I am updating my setup and with the line-in feature I can significantly simplify my overall switching and processing for 2 channel music by implementing a psuedo HT bypass in my setup via MC17.  I would like to know what the future plans are for this feature so that I can properly account for it in my reconfig.

[jacqlan111]

Any updates on the line-in feature?

I know that it is functional in the current version, but will the feature be enhanced or updated even further in the coming builds?

I am updating my setup and with the line-in feature I can significantly simplify my overall switching and processing for 2 channel music by implementing a psuedo HT bypass in my setup via MC17.  I would like to know what the future plans are for this feature so that I can properly account for it in my reconfig.

I'm in too.
Matt, A line-in option that would capture one channel of my RME sound card for external sweep measurements could solve my win XP URL:live loopback problem.  
Is it still in your plan or the Wasapi URL live Loopback is the only route that will be available in the future?
Is anybody aware of a cheep VST plugin that can catch a card input and make it play through M17's dsp tools?

[Matt]

I'm in too.
Matt, A line in option that would capture one channel of my RME sound card for external sweep measurements could solve my win XP

ASIO line-in is supported.  Read above for more details.

[ccclapp]

Thanks for implementing this

What do you see as timeline for digital source support?

Thanks

[jacqlan111]

ASIO line-in is supported.  Read above for more details.

I forgot to mention that my RME have only digital in an out and no analog.

I tryed it without success.

[Alex B]

I would like to think that when the digital signal comes in through the ASIO driver, MC doesn't necessarily even know if any AD conversion happened or if the signal was already digital (i.e. inputted from SPDIF).

If you are trying to use the same device for input and output the following may apply:

As a disclaimer, doing ASIO input on a card may prevent doing output on the same card.

It appears that many ASIO drivers don't nicely support multiple instances talking to them, and we use one instance for input and one for output.  For these drivers, we would need to merge the input and output together into a single plugin.  This is a large change, so won't happen soon.

Simultaneous input and output didn't work with my Terratec card when I tried it.

[jacqlan111]

Thanks for the info...
Is there a solution? Even if it cost a little ?

[ccclapp]

Thanks for the info...
Is there a solution? Even if it cost a little ?

...yes, upgrading to win7 so you can use loopback for your measurements

[Alex B]

You could add a second sound card. (If ASIO input works when output is not trying to use the same audio device.)