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[jacqlan111]

...yes, upgrading to win7 so you can use loopback for your measurements

It could work, but not with my new PC who runs win7.  T
Loopback in this one is stuttering badly.  It seams that some PC are working well and others not for who knows reason?  Chips brand, mother boards ?
I may try to upgrade my actual music dedicated PC.

[jacqlan111]

You could add a second sound card. (If ASIO input works when output is not trying to use the same audio device.)

thanks, but in win XP (mine) the live loopback provoques JRiver to crash right at the setup window.

I will try to use the RME totalmix loopbak feature an see what is available in It's software package.  I just got this RME card last week.  
I'm still open to any information or suggestions.

[EarlK]

I'm still open to any information or suggestions.

 _Buying Win7 ( just so that you can implement WASAPI loopback ) may not be the best approach to accomplish what you want ( ie; run REW through MC17 & then back out to your soundcard ).

 _As of this morning, I've successfully had REW streaming audio through VAC into MC17 ( by "wrapping" VAC with ASIO4ALL to make the VAC stream accessible as an ASIO "input"  & then linked into MC17 via the "ASIO input function" ) .  This was on XP Pro SP3 .  

 _I succesfully created a few new "clean" soundcard calibrations ( without glitches ) as a "proof of concept" ( for this type of circuitous routing ) .
 _One of these "REW calibrations" even had EQ applied to it via MC17's DSP engine .

 _You'll need to use REW within JAVA/WDM mode ( not ASIO ) for this to work .  

 _No sputtering , grit , drop-outs , etc. ( though I had plenty of those yesterday when trying to get two "instances" of ASIO4ALL to play nice together / just so that I could try to have REW work within an ASIO mode / never did happen cleanly )   .

 _I'll post some pics ( of all the successful ) settings, somewhat later .

 _If your RME soundcard ( used for input & output ) doesn't come with WDM drivers / then this approach won't work .

 _If you are going to attempt to use separate sound-cards for input & output, then you should be prepared to synch  them together via their respective "word clocks" ( assuming they both have that functionality of I/O ) .

 _VAC ( Virtual Audio Cable ) is available for purchase here !

 _ASIO4ALL_2_11_Beta1_English_download

 

[jacqlan111]

Thank you EarlK
Your suggestions give me some new tracks to explore.  I will look at the VAC engine, I'm quite optimistic to be able to realize the same setup than you.
I wonder if the RME totalmix loopback application could do the same?  I will have to read and learn more on how to make it work.  I did not found so far the right application in the package I received.

Anyway that's good news.  I'll post my experimental results + or -.

About ASIO4ALL, I had negative feedback on it?  Personnally I worked with ASIO all the time but never this one.

[EarlK]

Jacques

>snip< About ASIO4ALL, I had negative feedback on it?  Personnally I worked with ASIO all the time but never this one.>snip<

• I'm aware of this sites recommendations against using ASIO4ALL / I haven't searched out the "why" behind this recommendation .
• For my purposes, ASIO4ALL is an extremely useful ASIO wrapper ( for use with WDM drivers ) .  
• I have found that it's considerably better coded than the custom ASIO drivers shipped with a couple of my soundcards .  
• It's by far, more stable than the ASIO drivers that are native to my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra or Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 ( they can easily trigger BSODs given the right circumstances ) .
• Another huge plus, is that the nature of this driver, allows the user to create one single composite ASIO driver from mutiple WDM drivers  .

>snip<Your suggestions give me some new tracks to explore.  I will look at the VAC engine, I'm quite optimistic to be able to realize the same setup than you. >snip<

• ( Considering its' low cost ), anyone wanting to do complicated virtual patching ( on a Windows PC ) should have VAC in their "toolkit" ( as far as I'm concerned ) .

>snip< I wonder if the RME totalmix loopback application could do the same?  I will have to read and learn more on how to make it work.  I did not found so far the right application in the package I received. >snip<

•   "Totalmix", "Patchmix", there are a few software mixers that allow one to create "virtual patches" ( allowing one to customize where & how the digital stream gets routed ) .

>snip< Anyway that's good news.  I'll post my experimental results + or -. >snip<

•   My ( unsolicited ) advice, ( if you haven't already done so ) create some custom PEQ filters within the DSP section of MC17  ( after deciding what needs to be EQed  by running REW through each individual speaker ) & then get on with the job of applying digital room correction ( drc ) to your system .

•   One can always check the results of the applied EQ by playing back ( through MC17 ) a minute long PinkNoise PN file ( created & exported from REW as a wave file ) through each individual speaker .  

•   This is the "KISS method" which should be mastered first, before implementing complicated virtual routing schemes ( such as you are attempting ).

•   IME, it takes quite a while to fully get comfortable with virtual routing from within a computer ( & some just never "get it" ) & as a consequence of such fixations, one can easily lose sight of the actual goal ( which is applying PC based EQ, to ones source material , before the signal arrives at the soundcard ) .

[jacqlan111]

> As of this morning, I've successfully had REW streaming audio through VAC into MC17 ( by "wrapping" VAC with ASIO4ALL to make the VAC stream accessible as an ASIO "input"  & then linked into MC17 via the "ASIO input function" )

Earlk
I'm must missing something.  I've got the VAC trial version but I can't figure out the way to link MC17.

The REW signal come through VAC as Wave in, in the audio repeater window and then?  If I check REM sound card for Wave out, it goes to the speakers OK but I don't get the idea for streaming through MC?

It's Sunday night and it's quiet, I should get it!!
Can you describe your detailed routing?

many, many thanks
jacques

[EarlK]

Hi Jacques,

• You send output out of REW into a VAC ( called Virtual Cable 1 within my setup ) . REW must be in "JAVA mode" .

• You must have ASIO4ALL on your computer for the next part to work ( to get signal into MC17 through the ASIO input portal ) .

• Within the audio device output selection area of MC17 , select your RME soundcard ( try either ASIO mode or Direct Sound, since you don't have WASAPI as a possible choice ) . Make your choice/decision based on which one seems to be the most stable over the long term ( determined by how many tens of seconds one gets before running 2 unsynced/freewheeling soundcards drift enough to cause problems , even dropping the connection ) . Here's a screen-shot showing my selected soundcard, selected for outputting from MC17

• Within MC17's browser window, open up the url called > live://asio . A dialog box will open up, asking you to select a choice of all available ASIO drivers (  specific to your machine & soundcards )  

• Choose "ASIO4ALL" as your  ASIO driver .

•  Close dialogue box.  You will see a short duration timing window as MC17 opens the ASIO driver . Once open you will see ( up in the top center dialog window ) a timer showing how long the "ASIO" url has been loaded . That timer must remain active and advancing in time . If the timer stops , it means the ASIO connection has been dropped by MC17 ( likely due to "timing issues between 2 ASIO Word Clocks that aren't synced ) .

•   Open up the ASIO4ALL driver and you will see all of the WDM drivers for the audio devices ( that ASIO4ALL "sees/finds" ) . VAC will be in there / if it is not, then something is wrong with your VAC install/setup .
•  Choose VAC ( within the ASIO4ALL settings window ) as your "input" .  Leave all other "ins & outs", deselected ( unlit ) .

•  Close the ASIO4ALL dialog box and go back to REW .
•  Open REW's function generator , choose "Pink PN" at -20db and engage the generator . This should send Pink Noise "PN" directly through MC17 out to your RME soundcard .
• You can monitor this signal in a few places . Here's a pic showing the pink noise being filtered by a VST EQ plugin ( displayed by MC17's spectrum analyzer ) .
• The second pic is of the same signal showing up back in REW's input ( after I connected a cable from the output of the Focusrite soundcard to in's input ) .

•  Be aware that these types of internal data connections are very "fragile" and therefore will be dropped eventually by one or both soundcards ( due to synch issues ) .  It's up to you to find the ASIO settings ( as well as the MC17 audio output settings ) that give the longest ( & cleanest ) duration connection .  When either MC17 or REW "drops the line" ( due to clock synch problems ) you're likely going to see this message ( if you're within the REW active window ) . The MC17 ASIO streaming connection will have been lost ( the timing counter will have stopped ) and you will need to reconnect ASIO streaming input ( first hit "Stop & then Play" ) & then going through the ASIO connection dialogue boxes once again .
  
  
  
   

Tedious yes, but this kludge works well enough and usually lasts long enough to get REW measurements through MC17's VST EQ filters to see their effect  .  

[jacqlan111]

Earlk,  That's the way to show things, yes I like it very much.
I understand the effort behind this and I appreciate it.
Now I've got the sound from REW going to MC17 via live://asio, and VAC is easy, like it too.

There must be a small thing that I do wrong because the MC's PEQ does not applies to the RME output.  The frequency curve keeps the same.  It looks the same I usually have without EQ?
I followed your instructions as you can see below.  Quite logical,  I should have been able sooner.  I was just missing the live://asio second window for Asio4all selection.

Now, why the PEQ is not in the path ?  I've gone through a few time and it's all fine for me.
Do you see or think of something?
I'm testing blind variations....That's less logical.

Hi Jacques,

• You send output out of REW into a VAC ( called Virtual Cable 1 within my setup ) . REW must be in "JAVA mode" .

OK
 

• You must have ASIO4ALL on your computer for the next part to work ( to get signal into MC17 through the ASIO input portal ) .

YES

• Within the audio device output selection area of MC17 , select your RME soundcard ( try either ASIO mode or Direct Sound, since you don't have WASAPI as a possible choice ) . Make your choice/decision based on which one seems to be the most stable over the long term ( determined by how many tens of seconds one gets before running 2 unsynced/freewheeling soundcards drift enough to cause problems , even dropping the connection ) . Here's a screen-shot showing my selected soundcard, selected for outputting from MC17

ASIO sound well, direct Sound stutters

• Within MC17's browser window, open up the url called > live://asio . A dialog box will open up, asking you to select a choice of all available ASIO drivers (  specific to your machine & soundcards )  

All there

• Choose "ASIO4ALL" as your  ASIO driver . DONE
  
•  Close dialogue box.  You will see a short duration timing window as MC17 opens the ASIO driver . Once open you will see ( up in the top center dialog window ) a timer showing how long the "ASIO" url has been loaded . That timer must remain active and advancing in time . If the timer stops , it means the ASIO connection has been dropped by MC17 ( likely due to "timing issues between 2 ASIO Word Clocks that aren't synced ) .

Timer is OK

•   Open up the ASIO4ALL driver and you will see all of the WDM drivers for the audio devices ( that ASIO4ALL "sees/finds" ) . VAC will be in there YES/ if it is not, then something is wrong with your VAC install/setup .
  
•  Choose VAC ( within the ASIO4ALL settings window ) as your "input" .  Leave all other "ins & outs", deselected ( unlit ) .

OK

•  Close the ASIO4ALL dialog box and go back to REW .
•  Open REW's function generator , choose "Pink PN" at -20db and engage the generator . This should send Pink Noise "PN" directly through MC17 out to your RME soundcard .

Yes it's working

• You can monitor this signal in a few places . Here's a pic showing the pink noise being filtered by a VST EQ plugin ( displayed by MC17's spectrum analyzer ) .
• The second pic is of the same signal showing up back in REW's input ( after I connected a cable from the output of the Focusrite soundcard to in's input ) .

Tedious yes, but this kludge works well enough and usually lasts long enough to get REW measurements through MC17's VST EQ filters to see their effect  .  

:)

[/list]
In the VAC repeater, I choose the virtual cable 1 for wave in and none for the wave out.  Is that correct?

[EarlK]

Hi Jacques,

- We don't need to use the "AudioRepeater" utility .

- For our use, one just dumps signal into any VAC cable ( from a program like REW ) and then retrieves that signal from the same numbered VAC cable (from a different program ) .

- FYI, I'm still using the VAC default values ( as seen within its control panel  ) . These are the default values ;

In the VAC repeater, I choose the virtual cable 1 for wave in and none for the wave out.  Is that correct?

- Strictly speaking, that is correct ( since you don't want to dump VAC1 directly into any other soundcards data stream ) .  

- Functionally, (  for our application, as mentioned ), it is incorrect ( to even use "AudioRepeater" ) .

- There is no need to even open "audiorepeater" ( excepting to look around & realize its' own potential for rerouting +/or mashing different audio streams together ) .

- Here's one article Audio Repeater Usage Guide if you want to dream up some other uses for VAC .

- And a Video ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BtS8YBXzoY&feature=youtu.be

There must be a small thing that I do wrong because the MC's PEQ does not applies to the RME output.  The frequency curve keeps the same.

- That can only mean you haven't engaged the PEQ ( by checking it's activation box ) or you haven't actually built a filter that boosts or cuts ( ie; everything is still sitting at 0db ) .

- As I said earlier , it takes a good year to get familiar with all this stuff .

 

[jacqlan111]

- That can only mean you haven't engaged the PEQ ( by checking it's activation box ) or you haven't actually built a filter that boosts or cuts ( ie; everything is still sitting at 0db ) .

- As I said earlier , it takes a good year to get familiar with all this stuff .

 

If it could just be that easy Earlk.  I understand it's supposed to be so.
This part of MC17 I know well enough for all the time I spent on it when I ran my multichannel dac a couple of months ago.  I used to make all my X/O for activ multi-amp setup and frequency corrections to achieve a flat curve.
Yes boxes are checked, I use both PEQs. I feel quite confident here
No this is not "the problem", but I hope to find it within the next year
Still no changes on the curve when adding 15 db at 4Khz over my normal actual EQ settings which are not active with this VAC config???
Well I'll try again tomorrow.

[jacqlan111]

 
Problem solved
I finally found that the fact I was set on 1 chanel in MC' DSP output format settings results in the PEQ to be bypassed or some other implication that I'm not aware of.  Even if the ASIO4ALL was set on 1 or 2, do not matter.
Now to be set on 2 or more channels render the PEQ to be applied on the REW signal.
Happy ending.

Thank you Earlk

[Waveformfidelity]

Matt,

Console with ConvolverVst, and Roland Octa-Capture under ASIO allows simultaneous line in and line out on all lines.

I use for active stereo 3-way.  Easy to set up four analog pairs in and digital in.


I have not figured out how to play wave files in Console.

I have not downloaded JR MC yet. I am very impressed with implementation of native convolution engine with compatible configuration file to Convolver/Sourceforge in very short development time.

The lights are on at JRiver!

[stanzani]

I notice that if I use tha same ASIO driver for both input (ASIO Line ...) and output Settings->Audio) playback does not work. I am using RME ADI2PRO and JRiver 26.
To make it working I set WASAPI for output
Did you experience the same?

Thanks