Topic: DSD bitstreaming with Mytek (Read 22489 times)

Ychng · « **on:** March 06, 2012, 09:06:20 pm »

Hi there,

Am writing in to see if there is any progress with getting DSD streaming working with the Mytek DSD DAC. I am holding off purchasing JRiver until I know that DSD bitstream works; which it does not at the moment. Loath as I am to go the Mac route, I might have to do so as both Audirvana+ and PureMusic on that platform support and work with DSD streaming to the Mytek!

Thanks again! Just hoping some work is being done on this aspect of an amazing Media Manager.

Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2012, 10:21:46 am »

This is the current state of DSD bitstreaming with JRiver:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format#Bitstreaming

DoP may spark to life this week depending on how things go.

Ychng · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2012, 01:27:54 pm »

Matt,

Thanks a lot for the info. Am a little sad that only the Playback Designs is supported at the moment - the Mytek is much more affordable and reaches a bigger audience.

Just adding my .02 (or $50!) to pushing for direct DSD bitstreaming support with the Mytek DAC!

Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2012, 01:36:08 pm »

Quote from: Ychng on March 07, 2012, 01:27:54 pm

Thanks a lot for the info. Am a little sad that only the Playback Designs is supported at the moment - the Mytek is much more affordable and reaches a bigger audience.

Just adding my .02 (or $50!) to pushing for direct DSD bitstreaming support with the Mytek DAC!

Does the Mytex support ASIO-based DSD bitstreaming? If so, have you tried it in Media Center?

I have some Mytek contacts, so it's possible they would send us a test unit if needed.

Ychng · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2012, 01:45:24 pm »

The Mytek DAC absolutely supports bit-streaming at the moment, with HQplayer and the foobar2000 SACD plugin on the PC, and with Audirvana+ and Pure Music (if not more) on the Mac.

I don't have a Mac, and my first choice would be Media Center. I have tried it with both ASIO USB and Firewire drivers for the Mytek, and always receive the "Your hardware cannot play xxx error" (I don't remember the exact error. Others have tried it and experienced the same problem (there was a post a couple of pages back about it).

Would love it if MC would support this DAC, lots of people are waiting on it. Lots more info on this much more accessible DAC ($1500) vs the Playback Designs ($6500-$15000) here at computeraudiophile:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Mytek-Stereo-192?page=3

Thanks so much Matt - if you guys could work on this that would be awesome, and I think a lot of Mytek owners would go the MC route too.

Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2012, 02:00:35 pm »

Could you enable DSD bitstreaming in Media Center, then use Help > Logging to capture a log showing an attempt of DSD playback?

Then email it to matt at jriver dot com.

Thanks.

Ychng · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2012, 02:32:41 pm »

Absolutely! will do it first thing when I get home. Very excited to get some attention on this issue.

Thanks Matt!
Yeang

jdubs · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2012, 08:24:11 pm »

+1 for getting this issue fixed! This would make lots of Mytek users very happy.

As already mentioned, the Mytek is the most cost-effective way to decode native DSD, in existence.

-Jim

weff · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2012, 09:18:40 pm »

I'm also a Mytek user - looking forward to when JRiver will support native DSD playback with the Mytek.

Geoff

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2012, 10:14:54 pm »

From what I can gather, Mytek is using a scheme of 0xAA markers for DSD-over-PCM.

The DoP standard (that JRiver and Mytek were part of drafting) uses 0x05 / 0xFA as markers.

I've written to Mytek to see if they're planning to support the standard in their existing hardware.

It seems a little messy for JRiver to create user options for three DSD bitstreaming formats: 1) native ASIO, 2) DoP standard, 3) Mytek 0xAA version. I would prefer to only deal with #1 and #2, since they're the standards.

Ychng · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2012, 10:21:14 pm »

That indeed makes sense, Matt. Either way, hoping that MC will bitstream properly to the Mytek soon! do you know when DoP is expected in MC?

Matt · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2012, 10:30:40 pm »

Quote from: Ychng on March 07, 2012, 10:21:14 pm

That indeed makes sense, Matt. Either way, hoping that MC will bitstream properly to the Mytek soon! do you know when DoP is expected in MC?

We have our first test unit now and have DoP support coded in Media Center.

However, I haven't been able to get the test hardware to accept DoP. I think it might be a firmware issue in the hardware itself. We're working with the manufacturer.

Ychng · « **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:34:33 am »

Hi Matt!

Great to hear that you have a test unit in hand. Really excited. What version firmware is the test unit on? The DoP problem may be related to the different 0xAA versus 0x05/0xFA markers?

Thanks for all your help. Looking forward to the next release!

Yeang

patricklang · « **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:41:57 pm »

Any thoughts on DSD over HDMI? Could MC essentially emulate a SACD player and get by with an existing standard?

Matt · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2012, 03:49:16 pm »

Quote from: patricklang on March 08, 2012, 03:41:57 pm

Any thoughts on DSD over HDMI? Could MC essentially emulate a SACD player and get by with an existing standard?

You'll get audiophile quality today by outputting 176.4kHz or 192kHz PCM with JRiver over your HDMI link.

I'm not familiar enough with the SACD HDMI format to know if we could emulate it for bitstreaming. It's an interesting idea.

jdubs · « **Reply #15 on:** March 08, 2012, 04:10:49 pm »

The Mytek doesn't have HDMI.

-Jim

Ychng · « **Reply #16 on:** March 08, 2012, 04:17:39 pm »

Yup, so far the DSD capable DACs that are available for purchase do not have HDMI inputs as far as I know. I know for sure the Mytek does not - only USB1/2, FW and SP/DIF/Toslink. The Playback Designs I think does not.

One other thing that has been brought up on the Computeraudiophile discussion board as a wishlist item for JRiver with the Mytek would be DSD upsampling of PCM data. That is in effect what the Playback Design DAC does in hardware, but it would be awesome if this option could be implemented within MC as part of the comprehensive "bitrate conversion" options control panel.
Would be great to hear all our favorite 24/96 or 16/44 upsampled to DSD.

Thanks again for working on this. Hopefully DoP will work reliably, although I am hoping that native ASIO support gets fixed too.

Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2012, 04:35:27 pm »

Quote from: Ychng on March 08, 2012, 04:17:39 pm

Would be great to hear all our favorite 24/96 or 16/44 upsampled to DSD.

I don't think you should think of DSD as higher quality than PCM. Both can sound great, but in the example of PCM vs DoP, the PCM has 50% more bits dedicated to audio information.

Blaine78 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2012, 04:47:32 pm »

I'm also a Mytek DSD owner.
When the DSD bit-stream issue is resolved, would be nice to see a separate DSD bit-stream option (enable/disable) than relying on the current video bit-stream option, as it will mean swapping back and forward between DSD bit-streamed and watching video non bit-streamed.

pacwin · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2012, 07:44:08 pm »

Quote from: Matt on March 08, 2012, 04:35:27 pm

I don't think you should think of DSD as higher quality than PCM. Both can sound great, but in the example of PCM vs DoP, the PCM has 50% more bits dedicated to audio information.

You can't directly compare pulse code modulation with pulse density modulation (DSD, WSD) in terms of raw data rate so its misleading to say that PCM has more bits dedicated to audio. They are different species/kinds. One attempts to quantify the magnitude of the analog signal (PCM) wheras the other attempts to track the rate of change of the analog signal. Some biological systems are equivalent to PDM. The primary reason audiophiles like DSD is because of the way in which it more accurately captures impulse responsiveness i.e attack and decay of a signal (such as the bite of a bow on a string or the splashy decay of a hard smashed cymbal) which more generally is the microdynamics of a performance. Standard DSD is competitive with PCM but higher rate DSD is around the corner. Most DSD recorders can record at 128fs and Mergings Horus is expected to be capable of 256fs and the one bit audio consortium which is not aligned with Sony/Phillips has a prototype 512fs DAC. These higher DSD rates shift the noise that disturbs some people well out of the audible audio band.

Ychng · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2012, 07:32:47 am »

Agreed. Even away from the theoretical considerations of the different nature of DSD versus PCM encoding, there is a palpable sonic difference in the same recording played through as 24/192 or 24/96 versus DSD. I subjectively would characterized the PCM recording as sharper and more glassy as a general rule with the DSD recording being more natural, less fatiguing with better transient dynamics.

Although all this again brings in the question of how the recording was originally made, whether it passed through a PCM stage of mixing before the final DSD mix, or multiple other things.

Suffice it to say that pacwin is right from the theoretical standpoint, that there are significant differences not encapsulated by the information density, and I (and others) feel that there is a significant sonic/audible difference.

Yeang

patricklang · « **Reply #21 on:** March 09, 2012, 01:52:01 pm »

This peer-reviewed AES paper had some excellent testing on native DSD recording & playback vs native 24/192k LPCM recording and playback. Their results said that there was no statistical benefit of one format over the other that could be identified during blind listening tests.

http://old.hfm-detmold.de/eti/projekte/diplomarbeiten/dsdvspcm/aes_paper_6086.pdf

However, there's two aspects this paper doesn't cover that I'm interested in.
1. Quality of conversions from LPCM to DSD. Someone with a Playback Designs DAC should do some blind ABX testing for differences between MC converting to LPCM vs the native bitstream DSD source playback.
2. DAC performance in PCM vs DSD mode. It could be that some DACs do better in one mode versus the other depending on how it was designed.

I have done some testing with an Oppo converting to 24/88.2k LPCM over HDMI. I can tell the Oppo DAC's coloration from the XDA-1 even at 16/44.1k, so I don't have a way to do a good A/B test.

jdubs · « **Reply #22 on:** March 09, 2012, 02:31:44 pm »

Having DSD upsampling would be a great addition - it would give users yet another option.

-Jim

Ychng · « **Reply #23 on:** March 09, 2012, 02:37:17 pm »

Patrick,

Thanks for the very interesting AES paper on DSD versus PCM. Great read, and very well designed experiment it seems. The only question I had about the validity of the methods would be where they state that the files after recording were stored in the Pyramix Virtual Studio - I have heard that the Pyramix DAC/ADC does convert to PCM internally but am not sure if simply storing it in Virtual Studio does anything.

Certainly well worth some experiments of my own, I think. But they had the critical ability to record in both PCM and DSD with the same ADC!

pacwin · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:25:34 am »

Quote from: patricklang on March 09, 2012, 01:52:01 pm

However, there's two aspects this paper doesn't cover that I'm interested in.
1. Quality of conversions from LPCM to DSD. Someone with a Playback Designs DAC should do some blind ABX testing for differences between MC converting to LPCM vs the native bitstream DSD source playback.
2. DAC performance in PCM vs DSD mode. It could be that some DACs do better in one mode versus the other depending on how it was designed.

There is one recording http://www.ludomentis.com/index.php?c=7a&l=ita&spc=&id_cat=&pagina=&id=101 which is simultaneously recorded in DSD and 192/24 PCM which can be useful for these kinds of comparisons. Based on six months of experience with the Mytek and a large quanity of native DSD recordings as well as PCM recordings delivered as DSD on SACD I would say that there are sonic compromises in converting to and from either format. It is indeed best to play them back in the format they were recorded in. Given that most DAC's convert to multibit Sigma delta formats for both PCM and DSD I would not expect a great deal of difference in analog performance. When you get to a certain level of performance, other factors become more important than raw sample rate: microphone placement, A2D converters, whether the air conditioning was off etc, to that extent this paper is not that surprising. There is one use case where I believe that DSD has a sonic edge and that is when it is used to digitize analog tape. The impulse response of standard DSD matches that of high quality analog tape and DSD in my view best captures that analog signal embedded in tape especially with such things as the Grimm converter. The paper you cited mentions in pasing the Emil Berliner Studios. This studio has been involved in supplying DSD masters of Deutsche Grammophon analog recordings for Japanese audiophile SACD releases by Universal Japan http://www.universal-music.co.jp/u-pop/special/sacd/classic.html, All in all there are some great PCM recordings now in the catalogue and there are some great DSD recordings as well. I have slight bias for DSD but I don't avoid well constructed PCM recordings. Many of the Analogue Productions jazz reissues done by Acoustech mastering use a similar process. To my ears however the PCM 192/24 captures done by Sterling Sound studios of the Verve catalog for Analogue Productions fall short of the DSD based methods.

Matt · « **Reply #25 on:** March 13, 2012, 10:31:49 am »

Coming in 17.0.106 (and newer):
NEW: Added support for DSD bitstreaming using DoP (requires 'WASAPI - Event Style' output and supported DSD hardware).
NEW: DSD bitstreaming using DoP allows selecting the marker bytes (supports DoP 1.0, and older 0xAA approach used by dCS, Meitner, and others).

If there are other marker byte sequences that should be supported, please let us know.

Ychng · « **Reply #26 on:** March 15, 2012, 07:01:30 am »

Matt,

Thanks so much! excited to try this out tonight! Any thoughts regarding WASAPI versus ASIO for DSD bitstreaming support? why one versus the other?

Yeang

Hirez24 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 15, 2012, 08:53:22 am »

This program just keeps getting better and better. I have never been so satisfied with a purchase in my entire life. The thought of bitstreaming dsd intrigues me. Currently I have my ati 5670 connected to my onkyo 809 via hdmi. Is there any possibility that i may be able to stream dsd to the reciever.
I know the receiver is capable of receiving the bitstream, but I cant find any info about an ati card being capable of physically sending it. Has this been discussed or explored in any way? I did try fooling around with the new setting but to no avail.

pacwin · « **Reply #28 on:** March 15, 2012, 03:29:58 pm »

Quote from: Hirez24 on March 15, 2012, 08:53:22 am

This program just keeps getting better and better. I have never been so satisfied with a purchase in my entire life. The thought of bitstreaming dsd intrigues me. Currently I have my ati 5670 connected to my onkyo 809 via hdmi. Is there any possibility that i may be able to stream dsd to the reciever.
I know the receiver is capable of receiving the bitstream, but I cant find any info about an ati card being capable of physically sending it. Has this been discussed or explored in any way? I did try fooling around with the new setting but to no avail.

DSD over USB using DoP is not anywhere in the same category as DSD over HDMI. Windows machines do not understand DSD with the standard driver model only PCM. The exception was the Steinberg protocol known as ASIO which till recently was theoryrather than implementation. Unless ATI were to write an ASIO driver that supported DSD it is not possible to send DSD over HDMI neither are they likely to attempt it. In the case of DoP however this bypasses the need even for there to be an ASIO driver. Instead the digital processors and FPGA in the DACS interpret this specific byte sequence as DSD and play it. Your receiver does not have this capability and is unlikely to be programmable to do it either and that is why nothing happens if you send this to your receiver using DoP. This is not to say that some enterprising DAC builder may not create such a device but they have to contend with the licensing costs for HDMI which are steep. It is probably more likely that some receiver manufacturers may implement DSD playback over media networks.

Ychng · « **Reply #29 on:** March 15, 2012, 08:54:33 pm »

It's WORKING!!!

Got my Mytek DAC on FW 1.4.2.2 with MC 17.106 streaming DSD perfectly using DSD over PCM on WASAPI-Event Style! Really happy - this is amazing support and I put my money where my mouth is and promptly purchased a full license, as well as JRemote for iPad control.

Matt, thank you so much for getting this done, and my thanks to all the development team that made this happen! it sounds amazing.

Yeang

Hirez24 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 16, 2012, 10:01:02 am »

Quote from: pacwin on March 15, 2012, 03:29:58 pm

DSD over USB using DoP is not anywhere in the same category as DSD over HDMI. Windows machines do not understand DSD with the standard driver model only PCM. The exception was the Steinberg protocol known as ASIO which till recently was theoryrather than implementation. Unless ATI were to write an ASIO driver that supported DSD it is not possible to send DSD over HDMI neither are they likely to attempt it. In the case of DoP however this bypasses the need even for there to be an ASIO driver. Instead the digital processors and FPGA in the DACS interpret this specific byte sequence as DSD and play it. Your receiver does not have this capability and is unlikely to be programmable to do it either and that is why nothing happens if you send this to your receiver using DoP. This is not to say that some enterprising DAC builder may not create such a device but they have to contend with the licensing costs for HDMI which are steep. It is probably more likely that some receiver manufacturers may implement DSD playback over media networks.

pacwin, Thanks for the thorough explanation. I know just enough to get myself in trouble and go wild goose chases. So a straight stream is out of the question and I figured as much. But If I understand it correctly The DoP works kind of like a DTS-wav (which my receiver can handle) where you hide the dts information in a typical 16bit 44.1 khz wav and the receiver sees it and decodes it properly as long as there is no dsp processing, otherwise you get garbled white noise. I wonder if something like this is possible or am I barking up the wrong tree.

jdubs · « **Reply #31 on:** March 16, 2012, 10:53:52 am »

This is awesome, news!! Next up for affordable DSD-capable DACs...the exaSound e18. Matt, are you guys working with them (the exaSound folks) on playback capability?

Thanks,
Jim

Ychng · « **Reply #32 on:** March 16, 2012, 12:01:43 pm »

Hi Jdubs,

I looked at the product page for the exaSound e18 and there is no mention of DSD support. Can you tell me where you got that information? would be interested to find out!

Yeang

jdubs · « **Reply #33 on:** March 16, 2012, 12:08:51 pm »

Quote from: Ychng on March 16, 2012, 12:01:43 pm

Hi Jdubs,

I looked at the product page for the exaSound e18 and there is no mention of DSD support. Can you tell me where you got that information? would be interested to find out!

Yeang

Yeang, I think the first mention I saw was here (by the exaSound guys):

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/exadevices/183374-exau2i-multi-channel-asynchronous-usb-i2s-interface-94.html#post2831336

Jim

patricklang · « **Reply #34 on:** March 16, 2012, 03:05:43 pm »

BuffaloDAC 3 can be built out for $300-1000 depending on input and power supply choices. It has I2S input supporting DSD, but I haven't looked into USB -> I2S for DSD yet. This could lead to the cheapest PCM+DSD option available anywhere.
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx

jdubs · « **Reply #35 on:** March 16, 2012, 03:10:44 pm »

Quote from: patricklang on March 16, 2012, 03:05:43 pm

BuffaloDAC 3 can be built out for $300-1000 depending on input and power supply choices. It has I2S input supporting DSD, but I haven't looked into USB -> I2S for DSD yet. This could lead to the cheapest PCM+DSD option available anywhere.
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx

This'll do it:

http://exadevices.com/exaU2I/Overview.aspx

per:

http://exadevices.com/Blog/tabid/253/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/34/categoryId/3/DSD-DFF-Playback-with-exaU2I.aspx

-Jim

Ychng · « **Reply #36 on:** March 18, 2012, 01:27:06 pm »

Hi Jdubs!

Thanks for your link to the e18 info. That is very interesting and I am looking forward to a head-to-head comparison of the Mytek and the e18 on DSD! Hopefully MC will be up and running with all of these DSD DACs.

Another issue I have noticed with MC and the Mytek, although so far it's been very good:

There have been some hiccups during the transition of one track to another - occasionally either at the track transition or a few seconds before (which may depend on the pre-buffering setting) there will be a short blast of static which sounds like what the previous issue with PCM-DSD switching static/PLL lock loss was.

Anyone else experience this? I miss the flexibility of HQPlayer but the convenience of album organization and JRemote is very nice.

Yeang

JimH · « **Reply #37 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:44:15 am »

firedog linked to Mytek instructions here:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/jriver-owners-thread-9546/index4.html#post161378

Monteverdi · « **Reply #38 on:** June 11, 2012, 09:25:30 pm »

The Mytek instruction manual provides guidance on DoP via WASAPI-Event Style. It is not bitstreaming native DSD. This method downsampled DSD files to 1-bit 176 kHz PCM files and sounds worse than a 24 bit 192 kHz counterpart. MC still could not properly bitstream native DSD files via ASIO.

Matt · « **Reply #39 on:** June 11, 2012, 09:54:17 pm »

Quote from: Monteverdi on June 11, 2012, 09:25:30 pm

The Mytek instruction manual provides guidance on DoP via WASAPI-Event Style. It is not bitstreaming native DSD.

This is not correct.

DoP is bitstreaming. There is no downsampling.

Monteverdi · « **Reply #40 on:** June 11, 2012, 11:13:52 pm »

Matt, I am puzzled. The media bar indicates that this is a 1-bit 176 kHz file being played instead of a 1-bit 2.8MHz file. Whis is this the case?

Matt · « **Reply #41 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:01:31 am »

Quote from: Monteverdi on June 11, 2012, 11:13:52 pm

Matt, I am puzzled. The media bar indicates that this is a 1-bit 176 kHz file being played instead of a 1-bit 2.8MHz file. Whis is this the case?

DoP is 24-bit @ 176 kHz (where only 16-bit is used for audio data). This fully contains the 1-bit @ 2.8 MHz data.

It's a bit ambiguous how to display DSD to the user, and we're still working it out. Hopefully the display side will get more clear with time.

kuanj · « **Reply #42 on:** June 13, 2012, 06:28:20 pm »

Appreciate some explaination on this statement
"DoP is 24-bit @ 176 kHz (where only 16-bit is used for audio data)".
WHat is DoP stand for?

Thanks

Matt · « **Reply #43 on:** June 13, 2012, 06:32:13 pm »

Quote from: kuanj on June 13, 2012, 06:28:20 pm

WHat is DoP stand for?

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue60/dsd_usb.htm

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Author Topic: DSD bitstreaming with Mytek (Read 22489 times)