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[Henglander]

Hi,

I am using wasapi event style. Reading from memory makes no difference.
I think moving the mouse makes things worse.
The links to stuff about pci latency are outdated
The glitches I hear are exasperating - I have stopped using mc17 and listen to CD instead.

I use a hp 8540w

Markus

[Vincent Kars]

Try http://www.thesycon.com/deu/latency_check.shtml

[Henglander]

Try http://www.thesycon.com/deu/latency_check.shtml

"Some device drivers on this machine behave bad and will probably cause drop-outs in real-time audio and/or video streams. To isolate the misbehaving driver use Device Manager and disable/re-enable various devices, one at a time. Try network and W-LAN adapters, modems, internal sound devices, USB host controllers, etc."

How wonderful. So I am not hearing things. And then again I hear clicks and glitches even when that tool says everything is ok, so I don't really trust it.

But quite frankly, I want to listen to music I don't want to manually disable and re-enable devices. If I press the play button on my cd player it works. I don't need to disable and re-enable the tuner or god knows what else.

[Listener]

I am using wasapi event style. Reading from memory makes no difference.
I think moving the mouse makes things worse.
The links to stuff about pci latency are outdated
The glitches I hear are exasperating - I have stopped using mc17 and listen to CD instead.

I use a hp 8540w

No need to give up yet.  You just need to do some troubleshooting.

Vincent pointed you to a s/w tool for viewing what's happening in your system.  It looks at performance at the driver level.

Task Manager lets you see what's happening at the level of application programs.  Click on the Start button and then type in Task Manager in the search box.  Choose Task Manager from the alternatives shown.  While you are playing music, watch overall performance in the Performance tab.  See if there is a difference in CPU activity at the time you hear a glitch.  Then click on the processes tab and look for a correlation between CPU, paging or I/O activity by some process and an audible glitch.

---
If you want more help, you should provide more information about how you are using your PC to play audio.  For example,

What other programs are running while you play audio?

Do you have an anti-virus program running?

Where are your music files located?  laptop hard drive?  USB drive connected to the laptop?  on another computer (such as a NAS)? If on another computer, is the network connection via wired ethernet or wireless?

What audio output device are you using?  onboard sound?  USB DAC? other?

Have you tried DirectSound instead of Wasapi yet?  It is often easier to start with DirectSound and then move to WASAPI or ASIO after you get your system working smoothly.

Bill

[Listener]

How wonderful. So I am not hearing things. And then again I hear clicks and glitches even when that tool says everything is ok, so I don't really trust it.

But quite frankly, I want to listen to music I don't want to manually disable and re-enable devices. If I press the play button on my cd player it works. I don't need to disable and re-enable the tuner or god knows what else.

Vincent and I have tried to help you.  Vincent's suggestion gave you information you didn't have before. 

You have jumped to a conclusion that you will have to disable and re-enable devices to play music.  There is a process to be followed: 1) diagnose the cause of the problem. 2) find an appropriate solution to the problem.  You are still at step 1).  You have a good start on solving your problem.  If you lack the patience to follow the process, you can't solve your problem.

I have been using MC for about 6 years.  My MC based system is just as reliable and trouble free as my previous CD player was.  There is no reason your system can't be as satisfactory once you solve your immediate problem.

Bill

[Henglander]

Vincent and I have tried to help you.  Vincent's suggestion gave you information you didn't have before.  

You have jumped to a conclusion that you will have to disable and re-enable devices to play music.

I had a link with with no explanation other than "try". Of course I jumped to the conclusion that I had to disable and re-enable devices: That is what the tool at the end of the link output at me.

I have Ethernet enabled.
At this moment a web browser is running. Generally nothing.
Of course I have an anti-virus; McAfee
OS windows 7 x64
I have a v-link-192 usb to s/pdif convertor feeding an nDAC
Media Player is running at 44k1
Output mode WASAPI - Event Style
Buffering set to 250ms
Currently play from memory is off - doesn't make any difference either way.
Rips etc are local.

[Vincent Kars]

The links to stuff about pci latency are outdated

That’s why I supplied a link  to a DPC latency checker  that do works.
But I most admit Bill gives you a more sensible advice.

WASAPI is pretty sensible to buffer size.
Often lowering it helps.
But try DS first.

It might also be a case of CRC errors.
Another try: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_Trouble.htm

[Listener]

I have Ethernet enabled.
At this moment a web browser is running. Generally nothing.
Of course I have an anti-virus; McAfee
OS windows 7 x64
I have a v-link-192 usb to s/pdif convertor feeding an nDAC
Media Player is running at 44k1
Output mode WASAPI - Event Style
Buffering set to 250ms
Currently play from memory is off - doesn't make any difference either way.
Rips etc are local.

Thanks for the details.  They will help me and Vincent give further advice.

I had a link with with no explanation other than "try". Of course I jumped to the conclusion that I had to disable and re-enable devices: That is what the tool at the end of the link output at me.

Re-read your entire reply to Vincent.  

---
Things to try next:

1. Start Task Manager as I advised earlier.  Find the processes related to McAffee and watch those in particular to see if those process are more active when a glitch occurs.

2. Switch to direct sound and listen for glitches.  If that works, try Wasapi with the default buffer setting.

3. In Device Manager, disable the wireless device temporarily and play music.  See whether the glitches are still present.  After you finish listening, re-enable the wireless device.

4. Set power management in your laptop to high performance temporarily and listen for glitches. After you finish listening, set power management back where you had it.

These are separate experiments that explore different possibilities for the cause of your problem.

Report back when you have done some or all of the tests.

Bill

[Henglander]

These are separate experiments that explore different possibilities for the cause of your problem.

Experiments? No doubt you are joking! You're a comedian?

Perhaps, on the other hand, my response on what I want and do not want to do was not very clear? You have not read it?

Let me quote from the JRiver homepage (A quote is something some else said and is indicated as such by putting it between quotation marks - as in the post you indicated I needed to re-read)
"JRiver Media Center is the premier audio solution. Whether you demand audiophile quality, or you want fast access to a half million files, no other software will perform like JRiver does. "

I demand audiophile quality, not a box full of experiments.
I see you are on the beta team so I suggest you trundle off down to your local hardware store, buy a hp 8540w and beta test JRiver on it.

[Listener]

Experiments? No doubt you are joking! You're a comedian?

Perhaps, on the other hand, my response on what I want and do not want to do was not very clear? You have not read it?

Let me quote from the JRiver homepage (A quote is something some else said and is indicated as such by putting it between quotation marks - as in the post you indicated I needed to re-read)
"JRiver Media Center is the premier audio solution. Whether you demand audiophile quality, or you want fast access to a half million files, no other software will perform like JRiver does. "

I demand audiophile quality, not a box full of experiments.
I see you are on the beta team so I suggest you trundle off down to your local hardware store, buy a hp 8540w and beta test JRiver on it.

I suggested ways for you to make progress in resolving your problem.  None of the experiments would have taken more than a couple of minutes.  In the process, you would have learned some troubleshooting skills.  Instead, you pounce on the word "experiment."

The problems you are having are specific to your own computer environment and not JRiver MC in general.  The steps Vincent and I suggested would be the same if you were using Foobar2000 or iTunes or Windows Media Player.

You have made several sarcastic replies to serious, well intentioned posts by Vincent and by me.  I doubt that you have learned anything from this thread but Vincent and I have certainly learned something about you.

Bill

[JimH]

Experiments? No doubt you are joking! You're a comedian?

Your understanding of English may be a problem.  In this case, the word means to try things.  If you're unwilling to try what is suggested, you won't find any help here.

If you post with this impolite tone again, you may be "shown the door", as we say.

Please work with those who are trying to help.

The thread called "Weird Problems" in my signature has links to over 100 problems that turned out to be caused by other software or hardware.  It is worth studying it.

[ADDiCT]

FWIW: Notebooks are not "normal" PCs. Very often, you need to use the manufacturer's drivers in order to make everything work smoothly. Also, PCs aren't "stupid" Hi-Fi devices. A PC is a powerful and flexible piece of hardware, and with that kind of power and flexibility comes certain disadvantages compared to less flexible and specialized hardware, like a CD player.

I suggest the following:
- Update the system BIOS
- Update all system drivers, especially the USB 3.0 drivers (!)
- Uninstall every bit of unneeded software/bloatware (or, even better: reinstall the system from scratch, using a standard Win7 DVD, and install all drivers by hand)

I'd also connect all audio USB devices to USB 2.0 ports. In my experience, USB 3.0 is still quite problematic.

Yes, it's a lot of work, especially the full reinstall. I've worked with HP business-class notebooks before, all of them were running much better after a bloatware-free install.

[Henglander]

Your understanding of English may be a problem.  In this case, the word means to try things.

Watson, don't let the location fool you! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiment or http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/experiment

If you post with this impolite tone again, you may be "shown the door", as we say.

Inconvenient is the word I think you are looking for. No doubt you will do whatever is convenient for you.

The thread called "Weird Problems" in my signature has links to over 100 problems that turned out to be caused by other software or hardware.  It is worth studying it.

That thread needs working on. As I mentioned in a previous post the links relating to pci latency are dead: after a number of frustrating error 404's I decided to post here.

The only sensible help until now was the link to the www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com that Vincent posted. That led to www.resplendence.com and LatencyMon. LatencyMon is a lot better than that milestone of software engineering from the first link (Bill: that is sarcasm). It will tell you which drivers are hogging CPU in a DPC.

I can hardly call this issue a "weird problem" relating solely to my pc: just type in "dpc latency audio" in a search engine of your choice and you get tons of hits. Why is this problem not mentioned here at JRiver? I think it is obvious that the logical conclusion is that its anyone's guess whether you get audio drop outs and clicks or music from a (windows?) pc.

Which brings me back to my muchreferred to second post in this thread. I expect something to work as described when I buy it.

[Vincent Kars]

I expect something to work as described when I buy it.

Who doesn't?
It is very simple.
Start JRiver with DS, same problem?
Start WMP (DS by default), same problem?

If the answer is yes in both cases you have a PC not able to deliver USB audio (1997) right.
Trade it in.

[Henglander]

FWIW: Notebooks are not "normal" PCs. Very often, you need to use the manufacturer's drivers in order to make everything work smoothly. Also, PCs aren't "stupid" Hi-Fi devices. A PC is a powerful and flexible piece of hardware, and with that kind of power and flexibility comes certain disadvantages compared to less flexible and specialized hardware, like a CD player.

I suggest the following:
- Update the system BIOS
- Update all system drivers, especially the USB 3.0 drivers (!)
- Uninstall every bit of unneeded software/bloatware (or, even better: reinstall the system from scratch, using a standard Win7 DVD, and install all drivers by hand)

I'd also connect all audio USB devices to USB 2.0 ports. In my experience, USB 3.0 is still quite problematic.

Yes, it's a lot of work, especially the full reinstall. I've worked with HP business-class notebooks before, all of them were running much better after a bloatware-free install.

A total reinstall or removing software from the computer are not viable options. As you say it is a powerful tool and at the price it cost it has other work to do when not playing audio files.

I have already tried updating the BIOS - no change.
LatencyMon initially spotlighted the USB 3.0 as really causing issues. I updated that which moved LatencyMon's attention elsewhere.
I also recall reading somewhere that using USB 3.0 ports is asking for trouble and I can but confirm that that is also the case for me.

The next driver highlighted by LatencyMon was the NVidia driver. Updating this to the latest has made a big difference - I have also used the "PowerMizer" utility, although I am not sure if that actually did anything for me.

I have attached a screenshot of what the latency monitor outputs for my system at the moment. The page fault resolution time does not appear to be an issue, but the kernel timer latency may, I still need to to investigate the possible causes.

[Henglander]

Who doesn't?
It is very simple.
Start JRiver with DS, same problem?
Start WMP (DS by default), same problem?

If the answer is yes in both cases you have a PC not able to deliver USB audio (1997) right.
Trade it in.

Well, Simon, thank you. How simple!

[Vincent Kars]

If somebody is not able to understand that the problem is not JRiver but the configuration of the PC one must keep things very simple indeed.
Bye.

[nwboater]

I really have no business in this thread but feel compelled to say something. I am very fortunate that I learned early in life that people respond way better when I am nice and friendly and grateful than when I am not.

I find it difficult to understand biting the hand that feeds you - in this case some folks that are being very generous of their time and energies to try to help you. They gain nothing from this other than the satisfaction of knowing they have done something good.

Rod

[JimH]

Can you try this on another PC?  Just to convince yourself that it does work?

[Henglander]

Also interesting is that a lot of other threads I have found with DPC latency peter out without any conclusion.

BTW There is something I haven't been able to find until now and that is how to actively manipulate the SpeedStep algorithms in the CPU's.

[Henglander]

Can you try this on another PC?  Just to convince yourself that it does work?

I can and I had intended to - although that will not convince me. I have been led down the DPC latency path and I currently I believe that although Microsoft has a spec how long a driver is allowed to spend in a DPC firms for example graphics card manufactures will violate this at their discretion if it means a couple of fps more in some benchmark or other. Then there are the plain old badly programmed drivers.

[JimH]

I've cleaned this thread up a little, to focus on the problem.

[dcyel]

The biggest problems with dpc latency on a laptop with Windows7 are the wireless device and strangely enough the Microsoft battery driver.

Had the same problems on a HP Pavilion and disabling both drivers mentioned solved all my problems.