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[gvanbrunt]

One thing I really dislike about Theater View is it is designed to be be accessed without the Enter or Select key. Of course there are those that love this (Matt for example) so it is a matter of taste. However I find it really slow and difficult to navigate using that design with OSD. Selecting audio track for example is always a chore. I find most users I give the remote to, confused when first using it because they expect to select using the age old design of Enter/Select. Just about every other UI uses it, so they are uncomfortable using it.

I'm confused.  Enter works in Theater View and it's used a lot of places.

In the OSD there is no use of the Enter/Select buttons. Some like this (Matt for example hates reaching up to hit the Enter Key) however this is difficult for new users to understand and it limits what functionality is available.

For example in most UI's you would navigate to the menu item, press Enter and a sub menu would pop up. This would continue until you found the item you were looking for. A final press of Enter would select the item. In Theater View's OSD it is all one big long menu with no sub menus. So you use the arrow keys to navigate up or down to the item you want, the right or left arrow to select it. Every time you press right or left arrow the item is selected/modified. This does several things:

1. It makes the menu very cumbersome to navigate. To get to subtitles for example I have to navigate through all (4 or 5) the screen controls (contrast etc) as submenus are not really possible without the use of Enter/Select. If there were sub menus, I would likely only have to navigate one item (Screen Controls) to get to the next "section". To make matters worse, Every time I move through a sub title by pressing the right arrow, it is selected. So the movie pauses or hiccups while it is selected. That gets really annoying when you have many to go through. Even worse, after a period of time passes since using the OSD it "forgets" where I was and I have to start all over again.

2. It is difficult for new users to figure out. Most users have used UI's that make use of Enter/Select. Every single time I hand my remote to someone that has not used MC they struggle to use the OSD. It's not to hard to figured out, but is not intuitive for those coming from other platforms.

3. It limits what is possible. In the thread this originally started in there were some video examples of what is possible in XBMC for example. Their OSD's are much more functional and easy to use for the average user.

OSD's can provide a wealth of information, but the tiny OSD at the bottom with a non standard UI is not the right choice for many users. However it does bring up and excellent point. One size does not fit all. Matt and I obviously have different needs. I think it would be an awesome addition to let users build "their own" OSD similar to creating a skin. I think many people asking for "Eye Candy" are really asking for enhanced functionality such as this.

[Scolex]

I would actually prefer a context menu that can be configured for size, items, position, etc and bound to a button on my remote and then navigated with the d-pad and ok. Some items would be simple selections and others would open an OSD display.

[raym]

I'll add my vote for another user who is pro Enter key.

During BD playback (as an example) I often want to see what other titles or audio tracks are available. I really don't like how you can't do this without MC automatically switching streams.

[fitbrit]

I'll add my vote for another user who is pro Enter key.

During BD playback (as an example) I often want to see what other titles or audio tracks are available. I really don't like how you can't do this without MC automatically switching streams.

Thanks raym for giving an example that clarifies what the OP meant. I think Jim thought OP was referring to navigating to selected files in Theater View originally.

Now that i know what was meant by gvanbrunt, I do agree too, especially when there are different streams/subtitles available.

[struct]

not adding substance to the discussion... to be honest I have always just used a mouse.  I can't remember the exactly why, but I think I just gave up on the idea of the remote.  This is probably 9/10ths my laziness, but may indicate that a little more needs to be done on making it easier (obviously a very easy thing to say, how to do so is much harder). 

craig

(I keep hoping for theatre view to come to my android phone or tablet as a type of second screen and for this to have all the menus one needs (e.g. it lists options for subtitles, streams etc, after playing has started) and avoid the need for discussion around 4 buttons or 5.)

[rick.ca]

I haven't thought about this much, apparently because I don't often have the need. For example, I don't have many videos with multiple audio tracks or subtitles, so something that turns the one set of subtitles on or off has been fine. But here's a request that obviously needs the suggested behaviour...

As for navigation, the OSD already supports navigating to the next and previous chapters. Unfortunately, it doesn't support jumping to a specific chapter not immediately before or after the current one. There is a jump menu on the context menu, but that's not available to most users using a remote. Even if it is, it's a poor solution when viewed from the couch. What's needed is for a 'Chapter Jump' menu in the OSD. This would be in addition to the existing menu item, and when selected would present a full vertical chapter list (i.e., just like the context menu) to scroll through an pick the chapter to jump to.

I now see that there are probably quite a few things that need the same sort of behaviour. Maybe there's something better, but I was imagining <left> or <right> when on an applicable menu item (e.g., subtitles, chapters) would pop-out a vertical list showing all items (scrolling, if necessary), <up> and <down> would navigate that, and <enter> would select (and the OSD would disappear).

The same behaviour would be handy for the main menu—for some situations. For things like changing the volume in mid-viewing, it's important the OSD be as unobtrusive as possible—the one line at the bottom as it is now. But for changing one setting far down (up?) the main menu while the opening credits are still running, it would be nice to view the whole main menu in vertical list, scroll to the item and then press <right> to toggle (e.g., subtitles on/off) or pop-out another vertical list (e.g., of available subtitles). The two behaviours could be supported by leaving the main menu as it is now, but adding 'Menu' as the first item. <Right> would pop-out the entire main menu as a vertical list, while <up> and <down> would navigate it with the OSD remaining one line at the bottom of the screen (i.e., as it is now). Maybe retain both behaviours: as it is now for an unobtrusive one line OSD that doesn't require <enter> to select, while selecting the 'Menu' item displays all main menu items as a vertical list, selecting one and pressing <right> displays a sub-menu or list of options, and <enter> is used to select one of those.

Oh, I like that! It warrants an example: You want to skip the current 'track' in a concert video. Press <up> to activate the OSD and select 'Chapters' then <right> to skip to the next one. Or, you have to stop watching, but want to view your favourite track first. Select 'Menu' and press <right> to display the main menu as a vertical list. Scroll to 'Chapters' and press <right> for another vertical list of chapters. Scroll to the desired chapter and press <enter>. Best of both worlds.

[Edit] Although in many cases it could be either, I decided I was saying <left> when I meant <right>.

[NickF]

I'm really confused by what is being said here.  I have an MCE like remote.  This has up, down, left, right and OK keys.  Navigating through menus in TheaterView, the OK button always works to select.  During playback of a movie, if I press the Info button, the context menu comes up and I can navigate to streams with cursor keys and select the one required with OK.  Nothing changes until I press OK.  I can select subtitles in the same way.  I can also navigate to and select chapters.

I have to admit that the default text size for the context menus is a bit small for a 10 foot interface but I am sure this can be changed somewhere!

Are you sure you are using MC17?  

Am I missing something?

Nick.

[JimH]

I have to admit that the default text size for the context menus is a bit small for a 10 foot interface but I am sure this can be changed somewhere!

You can modify the size.  It's in per cent.  I think I use 130%.

Tools/Options/Theater View/Size.

[NickF]

You can modify the size.  It's in per cent.  I think I use 130%.

Tools/Options/Theater View/Size.

This changes all fonts used within Theater View.  Generally, these are OK.  I am talking about the right click context menus when watching a movie, for example.  These don't change with this option.

Nick.

[glynor]

This changes all fonts used within Theater View.  Generally, these are OK.  I am talking about the right click context menus when watching a move, for example.  These don't change with this option.

Options -> Tree and View -> Select Font.

You can bump the size, and it affects all Standard View font sizes.  Be careful though.  If you go too much, it breaks the UI in places.

On my HTPC, I have "medium sized fonts" enabled in Windows and I bump the MC font size to 11 point.  This makes the Standard View UI and context menus usable from the couch on my TV, without breaking the MC UI.  Depending on the size of your TV and distance from the couch, YMMV.

[fitbrit]

Good suggestions, rick.

This thread, already broken off from another, now has how many topics within it?

[glynor]

FWIW... I'd be okay with a switch to requiring Enter for activating most OSD items.  There are a few places where it doesn't make sense (seeking, for example, and maybe increasing/decreasing brightness and things like that), but certainly for things like enabling/disabling Subtitles, audio stream handling, and whatnot it would be fine.

I can also say that I agree with gvanbrunt's basic premise.  I have no problem using the OSD menu system.  But I have watched my wife struggle to turn subtitles on and off because of this very issue.  She also assumes that you use the arrows to select and then OK to "activate".

Sometimes, even if something is "better" in a whole bunch of conceptual ways, if it conflicts with long-standing conventions, it is worse to change it because everyone has to learn something new.  I think Microsoft is in serious danger of having the same problem with Windows 8.

[fitbrit]

FWIW... I'd be okay with a switch to requiring Enter for activating most OSD items.  There are a few places where it doesn't make sense (seeking, for example, and maybe increasing/decreasing brightness and things like that), but certainly for things like enabling/disabling Subtitles, audio stream handling, and whatnot it would be fine.

Good point, but most of those items have a sliding scale or a percentage that immediately gives both the current status, and the limits of what is selectable (0-100% in most cases). Turning off subtitles in a rip that may have 11 sets can be a pain, especially if you left or right arrow when it would have been quicker to go the other way.

Sometimes, even if something is "better" in a whole bunch of conceptual ways, if it conflicts with long-standing conventions, it is worse to change it because everyone has to learn something new.  I think Microsoft is in serious danger of having the same problem with Windows 8.

That may be true, but people adapt. Every iteration of the default Facebook page/apps has brought groans from its users (including me in the past). Now I just roll with it, since the application is compelling enough. It'll be interesting to see what happens with MS and Win8.

[gvanbrunt]

That may be true, but people adapt. Every iteration of the default Facebook page/apps has brought groans from its users (including me in the past).

Not exactly the same thing. If Facebook suddenly started making you click and drag on link for it to work, I don't think most users would just roll with it. We are not talking about changes to the layout etc, but changes to the UI functionality that everyone expects.

[gvanbrunt]

I can also say that I agree with gvanbrunt's basic premise.  I have no problem using the OSD menu system.  But I have watched my wife struggle to turn subtitles on and off because of this very issue.  She also assumes that you use the arrows to select and then OK to "activate".

Also note that what I'm suggesting in this thread is not to change the behavior but to expand it. An OSD is obviously a personal thing from the views expressed here. So why not make it skinable? That way everyone can have what they want.  In addition hopefully we can see some expanded functionality like that which is shown in the XBMC video.

[fitbrit]

Not exactly the same thing. If Facebook suddenly started making you click and drag on link for it to work, I don't think most users would just roll with it. We are not talking about changes to the layout etc, but changes to the UI functionality that everyone expects.

I haven't seen Win8, so I admit I'm not qualified to comment or compare. Yet I did!

[Matt]

2. It is difficult for new users to figure out. Most users have used UI's that make use of Enter/Select. Every single time I hand my remote to someone that has not used MC they struggle to use the OSD. It's not to hard to figured out, but is not intuitive for those coming from other platforms.

We could make enter do the same thing as right in a left/right style item like 'Subtitles'.

Does that solve the problem?

[fitbrit]

We could make enter do the same thing as right in a left/right style item like 'Subtitles'.

Does that solve the problem?

No I don't think so, because it executes the change before we have a chance to see what will be changing it to. For example, when turning on subtitles for my wife (when we watch British shows), hitting right may not yield English subtitles first time around. We get a sound dropout of about one second as MC shifts subtitles. If I have to do this a further 3 times, it gets annoying to the point we have to go back 30 seconds or so to recoup the lost audio.

I think what people want is either:
1)to press select/enter and be presented with the available selection of subtitles, navigate to the right one with arrow keys and press enter again to select it.

OR:
2) To press left or right to SEE the next selection, and press select/enter to activate it.

[JimH]

I haven't seen Win8, so I admit I'm not qualified to comment or compare. Yet I did!

We must never let ignorance prevent us from expressing our opinions.

[fitbrit]

We must never let ignorance prevent us from expressing our opinions.

According to you!

[gvanbrunt]

We could make enter do the same thing as right in a left/right style item like 'Subtitles'.

Does that solve the problem?

I think fibrit pretty much summed it up. It is the selection part that is "broken".

I think the whole issue is a bigger one as stated and is better left until MC18 so it can be addressed properly. I'm pretty sure that 99.9% of all the complaints about MC not having the right "Eye Candy" is more about easy configuration, and enhanced functionality for things such as OSD. It really has little to do with looks although I'm sure there are those that would like things addressed there as well. I think the other thread was very productive about what is needed outside of "visual changes" to make Theater View more usable for the general user.

[Scolex]

We must never let ignorance prevent us from expressing our opinions.

Agreed!

Ignorance can be overcome as it is just a lack of knowledge not lack of ability to learn, stupid on the other hand can't be fixed. (not pointing any fingers, just saying)

[gvanbrunt]

Ignorance is only skin deep, but stupid is to the bone.

Or something like that....

[Scolex]

One option that may work would be to incorporate a configurable delay (ms) for items that have multiple entries (aspect ratio, subtitles, etc)
This would be win win IMHO since the enter would still not be needed and you could move through the options without a change activating immediately.

[glynor]

That may be true, but people adapt. Every iteration of the default Facebook page/apps has brought groans from its users (including me in the past). Now I just roll with it, since the application is compelling enough. It'll be interesting to see what happens with MS and Win8.

I think you were reading what I wrote backwards.  To be clear, what I meant by this...

Sometimes, even if something is "better" in a whole bunch of conceptual ways, if it conflicts with long-standing conventions, it is worse to change it because everyone has to learn something new.  I think Microsoft is in serious danger of having the same problem with Windows 8.

Was as an example of why they might want to change the OSD, not keep it the same.  I meant that even if the current method for using the OSD (no Enter) is demonstrably "better" (which might be debatable but that is beside the point), it is irrelevant if it is counter-intuitive for the vast majority of novice users based on their experiences with other software and other similar devices.  The closest corollary, HDTV and Cable Box OSDs and menu-systems typically use the "Arrow Keys to navigate, Enter/OK to activate" paradigm.  I have only a sample size of one, but I'll tell you this...

After trying to use it four or five times to either enable or disable Subtitles, or switch the audio track on a few of my videos (I have a handful of recordings of Modern Family that I downloaded because my old BTV DVR screwed up that are in Russian by default)... My wife "learned" that she has to give me the remote to do that stuff.

Her issues weren't severe.  But it was primarily due to the fact that she expected the menu to work more like the TVs and set-top-boxes she had used in the past.  When she'd try to use it as is, both the fact that it "live-changed and the audio skipped", and the fact that "when she hit enter it would pause playback", confused her.  She'd give up at that point.

Again, very poor sample size, but it does match what others are reporting.

[gvanbrunt]

Again, very poor sample size, but it does match what others are reporting.

I can confirm that most of my guests struggle with it. Most get it working ok after I tell them how, but some never seem to get it. Sample size would be more like 10 or so.

[raym]

2) To press left or right to SEE the next selection, and press select/enter to activate it.

Bingo! That's what I'd like to see but obviously where it makes sense only - streams, subtitles, chapters etc but not when seeking (for example)

[fitbrit]

I think you were reading what I wrote backwards.  To be clear, what I meant by this...

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[rick.ca]

I find it impossible to believe any user (familiar with MC or not) could have difficulty understanding first navigating to an item and then pressing enter to select it. Virtually all of their computer and device interaction is handled that way. As has already been mentioned, the current simultaneous action works fine in some situations, and no doubt makes things a little faster and easier. Other than the possible thought, "oh, okay, I was going to press enter anyway," people are not likely to question the strange behaviour—if it works. But there are many cases where it doesn't. It's just a PITA when there's more than a few items involved, or navigating through any items to get to the option you want causes changes to be applied that interrupt the video. It doesn't even work in some cases where you might think it should. For example, selecting the chapter item, the current chapter is displayed. Fine so far. But press <right> to select the next chapter, and it will immediately do so—and continue to display the original chapter. Is it too much to ask to be able to actually see what the next item is, and then select it? Or even be advised what you selected after having to select it blindly?

But it's just not about as sensible way to select and activate a menu item. When there any more than a few options to choose from, we should be able to choose from a list. Navigating blind is inefficient and annoying.

[imugli]

If I'm going to add my 2c worth, the question I get most regarding the OSD is "You press up or down to get the OSD? So what is the 'i' button on your remote for?" to which I reply "Nothing." Which leads to  ?

[imugli]

I just found this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq_WaOLjdyQ

for UbuntuTV.

If you start at 0:45, I really like the OSD / Info panel they've designed here. I certainly wouldn't call it "eye-candy" (without wanting to get into ANOTHER debate) but it looks very intuitive and TBH I think something like this would fit MC quite well.

It doesn't need to have ALL the options available, just Audio, Subtitle, Language. For TV, you could just have the program information and a Record button, while using the left and right arrows on my remote would scroll through the Channels (as it does now) and pressing enter or "OK" would play that channel (also as it does now)...

All accessable via the i button, of course 

The rest of the current OSD items could still be avaiable via Up / Down arrows.

[Scolex]

imugli

Something like that is exactly what I was thinking when I said I would prefer a menu in reply 1 of this thread.
The interface in the video looked nice and appeared to be quite fluid.

[imugli]

I've put a mockup of a proposed TV OSD at

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=72181.0

[glynor]

All accessable via the i button, of course  

Adding a new required button is a deal-breaker.  I have my Info button programmed to send a MCC command that shows the OSD now (the scrub bar).  It isn't hard.  Of course if you're lazy or your remote isn't very programmable, you could just program your i button to do a down-arrow keypress, which seems easier to me.

One of the things I like best about Theater View is that you only need to teach people about 6 buttons total.  Up, Down, Left, Right, OK/Enter, and the Green Button.  Period.

I think the way that MC's Theater View navigation works is absolutely brilliant, and the OSD is mostly-brilliant.  I'll give another anecdotal example:

My parents came up about a month ago to visit for a week and serve as stand-in daycare, since our regular provider was closed for a few days.  They were left alone at our house while we worked, and had to be taught to use my wacky TV system.  I showed them both SageTV and MC.  Since they mostly just wanted to watch Live TV (which we never do) they spent most of the time, early on, in SageTV.  They were constantly getting lost and stuck in the UI.  I even got a few phone calls while I was at work asking how to get out of some crazy menu they got themselves into (half the menus in Sage you can exit with the left arrow key, but half of them you need to use the ESC/Exit key, it is infuriating).

About half-way through the week, I showed them Theater View in MC again, and showed them all the stuff I had "pre-recorded" (as I explained it).  They tried it out the next day while I was at work.  I got a text message from my dad saying "Wow!  We should have tried this before.  This is SO much better!" (or something to that effect).  Their only complaint was that they couldn't get to Live TV through it (because I still haven't tried switching over again yet), but I have so many movies and so many TV Show episodes that they quickly stopped caring much (except for during Dancing with the Stars which my mom is addicted to, but that was in the evening so I could pull it up for her).

I like how you can easily access the OSD menus with just the up/down arrows.  And I like how left-right does most adjustments immediately.  I'm even not convinced about the Chapter Switching that rick.ca was discussing, as I typically just use chapters as "bigger FF/RW steps" (and I suspect that is true of most normal humans as well).

However, when you are changing an audio stream, subtitles, and other stuff like that, I think it is a bit discombobulating to most novice users simply because the expectation is that you'll navigate through a set of choices and then use Enter to select the one you want.  Plus, when there are multiple stream choices, there is no way to know this from what displays on the OSD.  It just looks informational.  There's no visual cue that there are more choices available without "trying it to see".  Plus, the fact that the audio skips when you switch them.

A simple way to address this would be to automatically pause playback when the user changes the audio stream (or whatever), and then when they press Enter, playback resumes.

A much better fix would be to have these parts of the OSD be able to display a "menu" with more than one option visible at a time in some way.  So, perhaps when you left/right (or Enter) on the current Subtitle or Audio Stream OSD items, instead of showing the different choices one-at-a-time and live applying them, it would then overlay a new 10-foot semi-transparent view over the video where you can arrow up/down and pick the stream you want from all of the available choices, hit OK, and then be returned to where you were in the OSD.  The same menu overlay could be used for a bunch of other mid-playback functions as well (like selecting individual chapters, navigating through stacks, etc).

[imugli]

One of the things I like best about Theater View is that you only need to teach people about 6 buttons total.  Up, Down, Left, Right, OK/Enter, and the Green Button.  Period.

I agree, but on every TV or device remote control these days, it's not the Up or Down arrow you use to bring up the OSD, it's the "i" button. It's a universally accepted function. "i" stands for info. If I press this button, I'll get information about the program I'm watching. If I press left or right from there, I'll get info about what's on the next channel, or what's on next on this channel.

IMO, including the "i" button would in fact make teaching MC easier, not more difficult, simply because that button is the accepted norm these days. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think most people wouldn't even need to be taught that, whereas they DO need to be taught that the Up / Down arrows currently give them the OSD. 

IMO, most first time users would expect the first press of the "i" button to show the OSD, and a second press to hide it. Because that's what their TV remote does. That's what their cable remote does. That's what MCE does.   

As I say, if my wife asks me at the moment "how do I see information about the show I'm watching right now?" I say, "You need to press Guide (which pauses the show), then select it from the guide and view the info in there." And she says "WTF? Can't I just press a button and have it come up?" to which I say "No. You can't" and look like a dick, because she expects to be able to and she should be able to but can't.

HER first instinct would be to press the "i" button without having to be taught...

Another example is "How do I see what's on next?" The Up or Down arrow is not the first thing I'd think of as a new user, because nothing else I use behaves in that way...

[Matt]

IMO, most first time users would expect the first press of the "i" button to show the OSD

The info button on a standard MCE remote does show the OSD.

[NickF]

The info button on a standard MCE remote does show the OSD.

But what it shows is the context menu, equivalent to clicking the right mouse button.  In certain circumstances this may be OK, but when watching a TV show or a Movie, you want metadata about that media.

Nick.

[Matt]

But what it shows is the context menu, equivalent to clicking the right mouse button.  In certain circumstances this may be OK, but when watching a TV show or a Movie, you want metadata about that media.

Nick.

It shouldn't.

The "i" button on my MCE remote shows the OSD.

The right-click menu should never be shown or used when using a remote.

Are you using a standard MCE remote?

[NickF]

It's an MCE equivalent.  Perhaps not as equal as it should be.  I will check with another system using standard MCE commands.

Nick.

[Matt]

It's an MCE equivalent.  Perhaps not as equal as it should be.  I will check with another system using standard MCE commands.

Nick.

I wouldn't expect VK_APPS (right-click) to be coming from a remote.  If this is common, maybe we could handle it somehow.

[glynor]

It shouldn't.

The "i" button on my MCE remote shows the OSD.

Right.  That's what I meant before.  You can do this.  I have an "info" button on my non-MCE remote, which also shows the OSD.  You can program this yourself by simply having the button call:

mc17.exe /mcc 10051

An alternative is to just have the button emulate a down (or up) arrow keypress, which might be more handy in your situation.  I wasn't arguing that you shouldn't be able to make your "i" or "info" button work properly, only that it can't be required.  There's a big difference.

[NickF]

It shouldn't.

The "i" button on my MCE remote shows the OSD.

The right-click menu should never be shown or used when using a remote.

Are you using a standard MCE remote?

Matt, my main system uses primarily MC Core Commands.  Is there a Core Command equivalent to your handling of the MCE Remote "Info" or "I" command?

Edit:  Sorry, I just read glynor's post which answers my question.  I'm just going to try it.

Nick.

[NickF]

OK, my "Info" button now works on my remote but the OSD "info" is not what I expect and not, I suspect, what imugli's wife expects!  It shows the current play position then we can scroll through various options but none tell me about the show I am watching.  It's all technical stuff.  What we need is the synopsis of the show from the guide.

Just looking at my Sony TV Info, it gives:
Channel Name, date and time, Channel Number,
Show Name, resolution, language,
Show description.

If I press info again, it gives the same info for the next show.  Another press turns info off.  I think this is quite normal and what would be expected.

Nick.