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Author Topic: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.  (Read 17038 times)

glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2013, 12:55:21 am »

The Surface Pro is interesting because it does something no other tablet can do -- run Photoshop, Quicken, Media Center, real games, your work programs, support basically all hardware, etc.

But they married it in name to the Surface RT, and I find this totally confusing.

I'm doubly confused because I don't understand why RT exists.  What does it do better than Android and iPad?

Yep.
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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2013, 01:17:50 am »

Too much money, though.  At that price, it has to be able to be your only device.  It is portable, but I don't think it replaces a laptop.  What about that keyboard with the terrible trackpad?  How do you use that on a park bench, in a passenger seat, on an airplane, or in bed?  You can't... So you use it as a tablet, but then you're using non optimized apps, or you're in Metro, and the legacy stuff is less interesting...

And the battery life isn't good either...  A MacBook Air dramatically outlasts that, if it is true.

If it was priced lower, even if it was slower, and had better battery life, you'd have something...  But that can't run all the legacy stuff well or it is a different form factor.

I think it is early.  Or Intel is behind...  Or something.  They're stuck.  They can't support legacy apps on x86 with the existing windows code base, without having this class of hardware (or compromising fluidity and responsiveness).

That's what net books are, and they have a terrible rep because of underpowered Atoms and poor experience. The iPad and smartphones in general decimated that market.  Can they do everything your laptop can do?  No, but they do some things really well (like typing this post and browsing Interact), and I charged this thing up last Friday and its still got 35% left and you can get one for $350 (and it never, ever "feels" slow).

So, to run Windows, and legacy apps (which are bad on touchscreens anyway, by and large) they need a core i3 at least, really, and a fast ssd not crap cheap NAND like an iPad or smartphone... But if they have this class of device in this kind of form factor this year, they have to have crappy battery life and cost a grand (like everyone thought the iPad would be).  That's essentially what they did. Built what people "thought" the iPad would be before it launched, but on top of Windows instead of OSX.

And, of course, they can't wait for Broadwell in the middle of next year or Skylake in 2015 to start trying to compete with Apple and Google, so...

We get Surface RT.

I think there will be some better convertibles coming.  I hope we get good ones before Broadwell, or it might be too late...
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 01:36:49 am »

I'm doubly confused because I don't understand why RT exists.  What does it do better than Android and iPad?

I know what you're trying to say but going by that thought nothing really has a right to exist. It's not a very valid argument ;).
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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2013, 01:42:20 am »

I was hanging out for either the new Lenovo Helix (very good looking device but it will be $$$) or the surface but they a both at least a month away down here in OZ and I need something for travel.... So I'm going to try using a Galaxy Note 10.1 and see how that goes.
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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2013, 01:45:10 am »

I should say all I want is the ability for MC Playback (Gizmo will work fine but I really would like an Off Line Cache) and with a 4G 10GB per month plan it should be more than I need for this + support for IMAP (K-9) here and the ability to read and do some light MS Office doc editing.  I'll need to add a keyboard/mouse so will have to find something for this however.
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JimH

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2013, 10:13:00 am »

I think I'm going to get one.

Here's a Techcrunch article:
http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/23/haters-gonna-hate-2/
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2013, 10:47:10 am »

That is a full Windows 8 tablet, not the RT version. But I suspect you already know that ;).

As long as you don't base your purchase on that article alone I guess its fine. He's making some statements I have some problems with, in particular:

Quote
It’s fully capable of running any desktop application and most high-end games. Dump RAW photos into Lightroom through USB 3.0. Convert MKV videos with Handbreak. Dock the system and play Far Cry 3. With the Surface Pro, as they say, the world is your oyster.

First off, "fully capable" and "high end games" is an outright lie. A HD4000 does NOT run high end games.

But technically, most of what he mentions is possible on an Atom if you cut him some slack on "fully capable". The real question is, how is the user experience? I can tell you with some certainty that with 64GB SSD and a HD4000, the world may be your oyster alrgiht, but its a darn small one. It may *start* Far Cry 3, but you're not going to want play it. It may process RAW photos, but do you really want to wait for it to finish?

I would wait for some real reviews, benchmarks, etc.
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JimH

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2013, 10:52:12 am »

An i5 is a pretty strong replacement for the notebook I have.  64GB is a little small but I can manage with it.  I want to see what JRiver can do with it, how it feels.  I'll probably use it for a year, then look for something else.
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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2013, 10:59:09 am »

If you have way more money than sense, a presenter showed up at the Lab recently with one of these:

http://www.modbook.com/modbookpro-features/

It was pretty awesome.  He had it set up with bootcamp and Windows 8 (as well as Mountain Lion, of course).  Windows worked well even in Parallels Desktop too.  It could run games (totally agree regarding the HD4000, IM), but you couldn't run high-end stuff, and it didn't matter anyway because the input options are weird (though you could use an XBox controller I suppose).  Portal 2 class stuff ran fine.  Farcry 3 would not.

In any case, that thing was pretty sweet.  That's basically how I feel about the Surface Pro.  Would I take one (and probably like it) for free?  Sure!  But I think it would stay at home on the coffee table (unlike my iPad which is always in my bag), and I wouldn't pay $1k+ for it for sure.

If I did have roughly $1k for an ultrabook-class machine, I think I'd rather save $50 or so and get an 11" Macbook Air.  Sure, it doesn't have a touchscreen, but for that price, it has a much nicer keyboard and mouse, and is, all-around, much more "flexible".  Of course, I already have an iPad 3, so that needs to be taken into account.
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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2013, 11:01:26 am »

An i5 is a pretty strong replacement for the notebook I have.

Yeah, I don't think the CPU is going to be the limiting factor in the Surface Pro.  They didn't gimp out on that (though it is a pretty low-clocked version).

The IGP is a problem, but that's true of essentially all ultra-book class laptops too.

Again, it is a very nice piece of kit, and I'd love to play with one, but I'm not going to pay $1k for it.  And I don't think they're going to sell like the Macbook Air is, that's for sure.
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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2013, 11:03:25 am »

I'll probably use it for a year, then look for something else.

Are you going to try to use it as a notebook replacement?

I'll be interested to see how that goes with the keyboard and mouse...
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JimH

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2013, 11:08:27 am »

Why do you say that?  I know the keyboard types, but haven't read about problems with the true keyboard (Touch?).  I use a trackpad now on my notebook.
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JimH

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2013, 11:11:18 am »

If I did have roughly $1k for an ultrabook-class machine, I think I'd rather save $50 or so and get an 11" Macbook Air.  Sure, it doesn't have a touchscreen, but for that price, it has a much nicer keyboard and mouse, and is, all-around, much more "flexible".
I think touchscreens will soon be regarded as essential.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2013, 12:13:47 pm »

Yeah, I don't think the CPU is going to be the limiting factor in the Surface Pro.  They didn't gimp out on that (though it is a pretty low-clocked version).

The IGP is a problem, but that's true of essentially all ultra-book class laptops too.

That, plus the fact that it 'only' has 4GB memory and only 64GB SSD. As fast as that SSD might be, reading and writing to it for a handbrake conversion while also having to cater to the OS, its running processes and hosting the pagefile (which you're going to need with 4GB) is going to bring that tablet to its knees with 'power user stuff' like the examples given in that techcrunch article. I think you're gonna toss that thing in the corner until its done because simple tasks like checking mail or browsing a website will become tedious.

I want to see what JRiver can do with it, how it feels.

I reckon it would be perfect for that.

Let us know when you do get it and how it works.
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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2013, 01:11:19 pm »

Why do you say that?  I know the keyboard types, but haven't read about problems with the true keyboard (Touch?).  I use a trackpad now on my notebook.

The trackpad on both of the keyboard covers is way too small, and has other issues:

Quote
Touch Cover is more than just a keyboard, it also features an integrated track pad. If there was a single biggest compromise in the design of the Touch Cover it would be the track pad. There’s simply not much room to include even a normal sized track pad, instead we get something that’s about the size of a track pad from a tiny netbook. The usefulness of the track pad really depends on your expectation levels. For occasional point and click work it is fine, but if you want it to be a full featured mouse replacement you’re going to be sorely disappointed. There are obviously no physical buttons so you’re forced to either tap on the already limited track pad surface area or use the little bit of space between the track pad and the edge of the cover as a virtual button. Again, for casual mouse work this isn’t a problem but try and drag something around with the track pad and the experience quickly falls apart.

The Touch Cover’s track pad supports two finger scrolling and one/two finger tap for left/right click but no other gestures. There’s simply not enough surface area to enable things like edge swipe without potentially interfering with normal keyboard use. The most maddening part about using Touch Cover’s track pad is the slight lag when trying to switch between two finger scroll and normal tracking. There’s a pause after you finish scrolling before the trackpad will respond to normal, single finger tracking inputs. Microsoft did this to avoid accidental inputs but in my opinion it’s too long of a delay.

The Type Cover's track pad is marginally better (mainly because it has the physical click, ala the Macbook trackpads), but it suffers from all of the other problems.

There's also this, which would drive me bat-guano crazy:

Quote
Scrolling via the Touch Cover’s track pad is inverted by default with no option to reverse its direction. Similar to OS X Lion/Mountain Lion’s “natural scrolling” you can easily get used to the inverted track pad scrolling, it only becomes a problem if you frequently switch between devices that have normal scrolling. If you fall into that category, like yours truly, good luck.

But, even beyond that... I just wonder about using it.  Sometimes when I use my laptop, I'm sitting at a table or desk.  But, honestly, for a device like this, if you're in that kind of situation, wouldn't a full-sized laptop or desktop PC be a better choice (assuming this isn't your only machine)?

And, I use my laptop plenty while in situations where neither of the covers would be ideal.  For example, over the holidays, I spent hours in the car coding with my laptop in my lap.  You can't do this with the Surface (or, if you do, you're a crazy person with cat-like balancing skills).  As an iPad-competitor, sure, but this is priced as an ultrabook, and it has ultrabook-like battery life and power.

And... This is a minor gripe, but they don't "close".  Unlike the iPad cover, they don't magnetize down when you close them up.  They just lay there.  The IT people who have the Surface RT have told me it is essentially useless when you toss it in a backpack or shoulder bag.  You open the bag and it is off or completely misaligned, which could lead to screen scratches if you aren't careful.  That rarely happens with my iPad's cover, and (of course) isn't an issue on a traditional notebook.  It just seems like they should have addressed this, and I don't know why they didn't.

If you get one, splurge for the Type Cover.  It is WAY better than the touch cover, but still not a real laptop keyboard for a variety of reasons (the biggest one is just the weight is all screen).

I think touchscreens will soon be regarded as essential.

We'll see.  That's certainly Microsoft's vision.  Early sales numbers from the holiday quarter are less promising.  Touch-enabled notebooks and ultrabooks were everywhere.  They didn't sell that well.

I think, in the end, it'll end up being more like 3D on HDTVs.  Eventually, most "personal-sized" screens will have it, but it won't be something that you'd pay extra for, and it won't displace the traditional mouse/keyboard combo for many form-factors.  That's why I worry about the keyboard/mouse compromises on the Surface Pro.

It is a notebook-class machine, with a desktop operating system, that can run things like Excel and Photoshop.
But you have a touchscreen-favoring physical interface.

Having had many touchscreen PCs (and iPads) over the years, I can absolutely say this...  Touch is great for many things, but it does NOT work well when you are sitting down and typing.  The main problem with using the iPad this way is honestly this... Positioning cursors and whatnot when typing.  It is fine for typing an Interact post or an email in bed, but for other stuff, I'm not so convinced.
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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2013, 11:39:54 am »

I should add, Jim...

Despite my negativity generally, I do think it'll probably make a terrific tablet for many uses, especially MC.  I'm very interested to hear what you think when you get it.  Particularly how Theater View works on it compared to Gizmo/JRemote.

If it was somehow mystically $499-$599 for the 64GB model, or maybe $799 but included LTE, then I'd probably be buying one too.
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goatherder

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2013, 05:41:38 pm »

Perhaps the issue is that you're abstracting all your IRL 'experience' with that of the iPad. Windows 8 is not the iPad, surprisingly. I carry my RT around with me pretty much all the time now for productivity purposes, whereas I've never felt that was truly worthwhile with the iPad since the touch + keyboard experience was non-productive.

One thing I wanted to ask was that soon I'll be tackling - or attempting to tackle - j.River in RemoteApp streaming to the Surface RT. Does this break/infringe any jR licenses?

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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2013, 08:11:44 pm »

Perhaps the issue is that you're abstracting all your IRL 'experience' with that of the iPad.

I've had and used lots of Windows "tablets" from well-before the days of the iPad.

I use Windows 8 on my HTPC, and used the betas in VMs.  I just don't know that it is quite good yet.  There are some good ideas, but the execution has been inconsistent (and sometimes downright poor) so far.
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goatherder

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2013, 03:49:03 am »

I've had and used lots of Windows "tablets" from well-before the days of the iPad.

So have I - the last were the Thinkpad X Tablet series. And Win8 is the first 'proper computing' touch platform which I don't feel is a slight waste of time.

Quote
I use Windows 8 on my HTPC, and used the betas in VMs.  I just don't know that it is quite good yet.  There are some good ideas, but the execution has been inconsistent (and sometimes downright poor) so far.

That wasn't the question I was asking. You don't own a single Windows 8 touch PC, am I right? (a question I don't have to ask because based on what you've written, I'm confident that you don't)

Perhaps, also based on what I've read, you can't help the abstraction since you've nailed your colors to the Apple mast. But bear in mind that there may be many people who are capable of making informed decisions out of actual experience who may feel otherwise.
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goatherder

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2013, 03:56:15 am »

Would also be nice if someone could confirm if by VDIing/etc j.River if I'm doing anything naughty according to your license.

(As I said, have no idea if it's practical - should be interesting to see how much it mangles audio)
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glynor

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2013, 11:59:04 am »

So have I - the last were the Thinkpad X Tablet series. And Win8 is the first 'proper computing' touch platform which I don't feel is a slight waste of time.

That wasn't the question I was asking. You don't own a single Windows 8 touch PC, am I right? (a question I don't have to ask because based on what you've written, I'm confident that you don't)

Wow.  The easiest way to spot a fanboy is someone making uninformed accusations that others are fanboys.

For the record: I've used a few Windows 8 touchscreen devices, including: a Surface RT (which I had for a week but I didn't have either of the covers as they were all in-use), a HP "all-in-one" desktop system, THREE Perceptive Pixel systems (including an 82" model) which we upgraded to Windows 8, and a Samsung tablet of some variety that I don't remember the name of...  The 27" PPI display is in my office on my desk.

I don't OWN one personally, no... Because they aren't very good for my purposes, and I have other stuff to spend my money on.
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goatherder

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2013, 01:22:48 pm »

Hmmm. Talking about fanbois,

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wig

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2013, 06:03:37 am »

According to these numbers, Surface RT sales have been very poor, while Surface Pro have been somewhat encouraging

http://www.ghacks.net/2013/03/15/bloomberg-microsoft-sold-400k-surface-pro-devices/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2013, 09:51:21 pm »

Hi,

im planning of purchasing a Microsoft Surface 128GB, has anyone tried installing the JRiver Media Player with it? Ill be connecting it to a DAC using USB.

also, is USB connection inferior than the optical that im using with my recent notebook? of course the Surface doesnt have any digital or optical out.   
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JimH

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2013, 06:53:38 pm »

I have a Surface Pro and it works well with MC.

USB to a DAC is fine.  You're just moving the bits to the DAC.  It's all digital.
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pcstockton

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2013, 07:48:47 pm »

USB to a DAC is fine.  You're just moving the bits to the DAC.  It's all digital.

Not every case of USB implementation is "bits are bits" or "it's all just 0s and 1s". 

Just sayin.

On a very obvious and general level, not all USB DACs can play all sample rates and bit depths.  Without async jitter can be a huge issue. etc.

-patrick
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goatherder

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2013, 03:58:36 pm »

I have a Surface Pro and it works well with MC.

USB to a DAC is fine.  You're just moving the bits to the DAC.  It's all digital.

Kind of depends on how you define 'well'. In that it's not touch-aware at all, in simple things like list views.
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Matt

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Re: Microsoft's New Tablets. They're called Surface.
« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2013, 07:56:11 pm »

The Surface Pro is interesting because it does something no other tablet can do -- run Photoshop, Quicken, Media Center, real games, your work programs, support basically all hardware, etc.

But they married it in name to the Surface RT, and I find this totally confusing.

I'm doubly confused because I don't understand why RT exists.  What does it do better than Android and iPad?

It looks like I'm not the only one that was confused:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/30/microsoft_surface_sales_disaster/
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