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Author Topic: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?  (Read 19008 times)

marko

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Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« on: July 24, 2012, 12:50:51 am »

So I asked aimtec for their opinion (they sell Addonics in the UK) and this is what they said:

Thanks for your enquiry.

The solution I have proposed below is flexible with some future proofing and connectivity options.

You mentioned you might have a USB 3.0 socket on your motherboard, they are normally a Blue or Black 19pin rectangle socket, Can you confirm if you have a socket on your system board??
If so we could use the Delock USB 3.0 slot adapter (image attached) to bring that socket to the back panel of your PC.
The DeLOCK 82963 USB 3.0 slot bracket is £9.00

The Addonics Mini RAID Tower offers best flexibility and has both eSATA and USB 3.0 interfaces, if you have the USB 3.0 socket on your motherboard, we go via USB 3.0
Spec here: http://www.addonics.com/products/rtm4r5eu3.php

The above Tower can be configured for RAID or individual disks, you have the option.
The Mini Raid Tower (Part Code: RTM4R5EU3) is £200.00

The above Mini Tower solution with a USB 3.0 (5GB/s) will last you for years and is plenty fast enough cope with Movie files.
As an option moving forward when (if) finances allow, you can network the Mini Tower with a small NAS adapter.
USB to NAS ADAPTER, so it could plug into your Router and your files be served via your network.

This new Addonics NAS adapter, can serve multiple disks, so if you have 3 x 3TB drives configured ad individual disks they will all be served;
http://www.aimtec.co.uk/addonics-online/nas-4-0-adapter.html

If you configured the Mini Storage Tower for RAID5, so only one volume is served to your PC (something like a RAID5) you could look at a cheaper NAS adapter, that does the same thing.
http://www.aimtec.co.uk/addonics-online/featured/nas-3-0-adapter.html

These USB to NAS devices are very popular, very simple and have a nice web GUI interface.

If you can confirm you have a USB 3.0 socket initially that would be great.
The above storage tower will do everything you want very well with flexible connectivity options.
The USB to NAS adapter is a great device but maybe something for the future?...depending on finances available.

Have a review of my email and let me know your thoughts?


I do have two USB 3.0 ports available at the rear of my PC (The blue ones, right?) and in device manager, I have an "NEC Electronics USB 3.0 host controller" and an "NEC Electronics USB 3.0 root hub" listed that are not showing any warning icons.

If the Addonics tower were to present three or four drives as individual drives, does it require three or four separate data cables? Individual drives is my preferred option because I don't understand RAID. Many years ago, when 40Gb drives were about as big as you could get, I installed two configured in RAID 0, striped I think it was called. I did not realise any benefit from doing that, and after it ran its course, I never revisited that setup option, and have never felt I've been missing out on anything. Am I?

-marko.

glynor

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 09:38:13 am »

A few things...

1. USB can present multiple drives to the OS via one cable, with an appropriate controller.  Performance, of course, suffers, especially when you are reading/writing to multiple drives simultaneously.  Essentially, the disk controller presents the disks to the OS as a JBOD array.  When only one drive is "talking" at a time, then it gets close-to the full bandwidth of the bus to itself (though no single spinning drive is going to fill a USB 3 bus).  However, when multiple drives are "talking" at once, not only is available bus bandwidth divided, but the controller has to do a lot more work at once (and generally not in a pre-planned and optimized way).  Count on lower performance for a JBOD array than you would get for a single disk on the same bus in most circumstances, and the problem generally gets worse the more drives you add to the array.

2. I have a number of Addonics storage products, and I've always been satisfied with them.  My main media volume at home is built with an Addonics Storage Tower with two Disk Array 3SA's installed.  The only complaint I have is that the fans in them are small and loud.  Don't expect to keep this in the living room, but it is fine in the server room.

Lastly, regarding RAID... RAID 0/1 is entirely about speed or data reliability.  RAID 0 (striping) can provide (sometimes dramatically) increased sustained read/write speeds, and can improve random access times in some cases (if backed by a good controller).  This makes sense.  It is basically giving you two sets of everything involved in reading/writing and they can be used simultaneously in "concert" with one another.  Plus, since the controller maps out storage in a "rational" manner, it can optimize the disk accesses so that it doesn't waste a bunch of time dealing with overhead (generally the RAID controller takes over the job of error correction and caching, for example).  The downside is, of course, that if you stripe 2 disks, and one fails, then you lose the entire volume (all of the data).

RAID 1 (mirroring) is basically the opposite.  It provides redundancy.  If you build a two drive RAID 1 array, the two drives are kept block-by-block in sync at all times.  Basically you always have two copies of the disk, so if one fails physically, the other keeps working.  However, this "costs" double the storage requirements (so to have a 1 TB volume, you need two 1TB disks in the array), and it does not protect against user-error (deleting things by accident) and filesystem corruption (which will be happily mirrored by the RAID controller).  RAID 1 can also provide some limited read-speed performance enhancements, as your system can read from both drives in tandem.  However, it generally slows write speeds as the controller has to do twice as much work for each write.

RAID 5 is a compromise of sorts.  This allows you to combine a bunch of drives into an array and format them as one volume.  Like RAID 0, it stripes the data across the drives, so you gain the performance benefits of using multiple physical disks working in tandem to service read/write requests.  However, it also provides redundancy.  Unlike RAID 1, where your data is duplicated block-by-block onto a second physical disk, RAID 5 calculates parity bits for each write to the volume and stripes the parity bit data across the array along with the actual data.  This means, essentially, if one of your four drives dies, you don't lose any data, as the controller can "rebuild" the lost stripes using this parity information.  So, it gains you most of the magic of RAID 0 without as much risk (two separate drives in the array would have to fail simultaneously to cause the entire volume to go belly-up).  RAID 5's write-performance benefits are somewhat limited by the need to calculate the parity information for every write.  Many more expensive RAID controllers include a hardware RISC CPU (often ARM-based anymore) that does this parity bit calculation.  Cheaper software based RAID systems do the calculation on the system's CPU.  This used to be more important in the days before modern multi-core CPUs, though hardware implementations will still typically outperform software-only RAID in writes (especially random writes).

There are other RAID levels which are modifications to these basic principles, including RAID 6 which provides multiple "tiers" of parity (allowing two or more simultaneous drive failures at the cost of additional "wasted" space used by the parity information).  Again, though, this only protects against physical drive failures.  RAID is not a backup.

RAID 5/6 can be very convenient for building large volumes.  It is a way to attach multiple drives to a system and mount them as "one big volume" and to allow the drive controller to use them together in a much more efficient manner than JBOD (just-a-bunch-of-disks).  There are downsides, though.  The biggest one is that each drive in the array must be, essentially, of the same size.  RAID can only use "similar" drives.  If you install 2 1TB drives and 1 2TB drive in a RAID5 array, then only 1/2 of the 2TB drive gets used.  Similarly, the performance of the array is limited by the slowest disk in the array (since all reads/writes are striped across all of the disks, basically every read/write will "touch" the slow disk).  Lastly, in most cases, it is difficult to add capacity to an existing RAID volume over time (though good controllers do support online capacity expansion).  With a cheap controller or your average Intel motherboard software RAID, you have to nuke the whole array to make any changes to it.  However, if you want to build a Really Big Volume, and you don't want it to be (a) slow and (b) vulnerable to a flaky drive failing, then RAID is your best bet.

Systems like Drobo, unRAID, and BeyondRAID are software-based systems that aim to eliminate most of the "problems" with RAID5/6 (using dissimilar drives, online expansion, increasing redundancy).  Mostly they are very good at solving those problems and providing redundancy.  Mostly, they are also substantially slower-than just using a regular standalone disk, much less a high-performance RAID 5 array.  However, they allow you to do things like slap in 1 750GB drive, 3 1TB drives, 2 2TB drives, and so on, and not lose a substantial amount of the storage capacity to waste (though redundancy usage is usually higher in these than it would be on a "straight" RAID 5 system).  They are also typically easy to expand without reformatting.

My main media drive (in the above-referenced Addonics boxes) is a RAID 5 array that is backed up rigorously.  It is wonderful and I have absolutely no complaints.  The convenience of having only one volume (M:) to deal with is my primary motivating factor, but I wouldn't want to risk doing that without the redundancy of RAID 5.  Disks do fail.  In the six or seven years or so that I've been running RAID 5 in various incarnations, I've had 4 disks fail.  If I'd been using a "riskier" array (especially JBOD), I almost certainly would have lost some data at each of these events.  And, it is very fast.  Much faster (particularly at reads) than any one of the drives would have been alone.  I can use it to store things where performance actually matters (like VM images) and use it directly as a recording drive for my DVR activities when needed (writing 3 simultaneous 1080p videos to disk is no simple task, especially if you might be also watching a fourth video upstairs on the HTPC).

Again, though, I can't stress enough... RAID is not a backup.  It protects against physical failures, which is one class of problem (and that is good), but it doesn't protect against other issues like:

1. Accidentally deleting files (in fact, this can be exacerbated by the RAID 5 striping which can make data recovery more difficult/expensive).
2. Fire/Flood/Natural Disaster
3. Filesystem corruption.  RAID happens at the block level.  If the files-themselves are being corrupted by the OS "up the chain" (something that chkdsk can't repair, for example), then your parity information is useless because it just "protects" the bad data.
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Daydream

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 07:56:10 pm »

There may be other options, but there's not enough information. You can buy an additional sata controler card, a port extender card (SAS to SATA or whatever), a 3-to-5 bay replacement (replaces 3 5.25" bays with a 5 3.5" HDD cage) and still fit HDD in your case if it's big enough. I did the setup with an external tower (not Addonics) and having 2 separate boxes as the media storage solutions... I don't know I just didn't like it. For strange reasons it drew a lot of power too.

Now, for really hijacking this thread :). I hear time and again that RAID is not backup. True, it's not. But this truth is advertised with such axiomatic force like getting a backup solution is a must have AND is right around the corner. If you have 200 movies and a few series and 5TB storage sure, get a backup for it, double up all the equipment you have and mirror it. But when you get into 20, 40 TB or more how exactly are you gonna have a backup solution for it? There is no backup solution unless you want to spent another $5-10K on it. And still that would be a local backup. As Glynor does capture it, it better be offsite. So then what? Wait till FIOS Ultimate gets to your area (in US; a few years, if anything), pay $220 a month and upload for 3-6 months, 24/7 to Crashplan. Sure that sounds great.

WHAT backup solution? Are we all millionaires? If you run a business sure, but for the home media consumer that barely got to 10-20TB, you can't sell the backup thingie.

It may sound like I'm mad at somebody. I'm not I just don't think the discussion is framed right.

There should be 2 designs: 1) business-like (starts at $1K chassis, $1.2K RAID controller, then you take it from there) and 2) Home user for you media needs (starts at $300 - $1000 plus other parts around the house - cue for laughs - and has the option to expand the storage to sky high numbers; requires more brains because it's not a complete solution served on a platter)

For the last one I would be in favor of software solutions, like Glynor mentioned them. Add FlexRaid to that list. Forget about any hardware RAID anything. It's just too inflexible, too limiting, too costly for the purpose at hand. And in spite of what was said what exactly speed do you need off of it? 500MB/s to stream 2-4 1080p movies around the house? Talking about overkill.

Sure the software solutions (unless we're talking ZFS and other pleasantries) reply on a snapshot RAID feature (you build parity at preset intervals of your choice, not on-the-fly). I did try some of them, not all of them. I really liked FlexRAID till the guy developing it switched from free betas to $50 for the real thing. In hindsight $50 is nothing compared to the functionality offered. As what actually RAID does for the end user (without complicated explanations) is drive pooling and parity building on the fly (for data protection), those 2 functions can be replaced with free and/or paid software that costs a fraction of their hardware counterparts. They would not rival them in performance but as a media home user you don't need that performance in the first place.

Just stay away from Windows 8 Storage Spaces because it's awful all around.
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glynor

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 10:19:32 pm »

For the last one I would be in favor of software solutions, like Glynor mentioned them. Add FlexRaid to that list. Forget about any hardware RAID anything. It's just too inflexible, too limiting, too costly for the purpose at hand. And in spite of what was said what exactly speed do you need off of it? 500MB/s to stream 2-4 1080p movies around the house? Talking about overkill.

I meant to include FlexRAID and didn't.  Oops.

True, in a read-only media serving situation like you'd encounter for the typical home "media collector", the sustained read speeds on those systems are far more than adequate.  I should note, the number you gave was an order-of-magnitude off base though.

Your average Drobo or unRAID system, even with high-performance drives, is going to do around 16-22MB/s (1/2 to 1/4 of that if it needs to rebuild parity).  The current generation of high-end "pro" Drobo systems, with 8+ drives do much better, and can hit 60-70MB/s, and if you build a modern, high-end unRAID based on good quality drives (and unRAID seems to be picky about drive models) then you can usually expect 30-40MB/s.  Usually on these systems, the sustained write speeds are roughly the same (often marginally better due to caching).

My HD-PVR videos are 16mbps (2MB/s), so reading even at the low end and only getting 12MB/s of throughput will still give you at least 5 concurrent files able to be played back simultaneously.  But that's only single-file sustained read/write rates...

Move over into random writes, or multiple sustained read/write ops, and things quickly fall apart as those heads need to seek around.  I haven't personally done recent testing on an unRAID box, but I have done it with a brand-new high-end 8-bay Drobo stuffed with 2TB WD Black RE drives attached via iSCSI.  It dropped to 1-2MB/s and the latency spiked through the roof.  Based on what limited reliable benchmarks I've seen around the web, none of the others are any better, even with fancy caching schemes.  And they get pounded in IOps performance as well (multi-user, or multi-process situations were lots of dissimilar read/write operations pile up in short periods of time)...  I haven't tested an unRAID box with an SSD cache, but that should substantially improve write performance.  It doesn't appear that unRAID's Cache Disk feature caches any reads to the SSD though, so you might still be in trouble if you do random access pattern reads (like running a VM).

So, if you use the storage system for more than just streaming media (or if you serve to more than one different PC simultaneously), then you may run into trouble.  This can hit you if:

1. You want to use the volume as your DVR recording location (which might involve writing multiple streams while reading separate multiple streams).
2. You want to write (or sometimes even read) videos other than highly-compressed H.264 and MPEG-2 video in a constant stream.
3. You want to execute code off of them, including storage of VM images (one of my biggest use-cases on my RAID at home).

I hit all three, in my case.  Plus, I've had reliability issues with some of them (unRAID in particular) in my past testing.  Drobo has never failed me (knock on wood) but they're expensive...

Regarding the backup?  My solution is to not keep all of that rotating all the time.  My RAIDs are relatively tame in size.  Right now I'm backing up to a set of 4 individual 3TB drives (swapped back and forth with the office, in sets of two).  The rest lives in offline storage on a drive on a shelf.  True, if my house burns down or floods, I'll lose that stuff.  The drives aren't being used, and the mechanisms aren't spinning, and they're relatively climate/humidity controlled, so they should last a good long time on that shelf, barring that.  Even so, I can live with losing some old episodes of Star Trek The Next Generation and old standard def movies.

At the office, I back my RAID up to a big 10TB share on our SAN with Carbon Copy Cloner.

For the home stuff, I'm strongly considering signing up for an online cloud syncing service that can automate the sync of these two sets of drives, so that I don't have to remember to swap them manually anymore (and to get a true "cloud" backup as well, for some stuff).

EDIT:  I should also add.  Using a Port Multiplier (one of those 1 to many USB/eSATA jobs that presents individual disks to the OS, no RAID or array) is going to perform even worse than an unRAID or similar box, if multiple drives are used simultaneously.

However, if your use case is:

1. you won't be using it for a lot of writing to different drives while trying to simultaneously read (an archive, not a "scratch" area).
2. reading from multiple drives simultaneously is unlikely (or maybe limited to no more than two drives at once), simply because of your setup at home.
3. you don't care if you have to manage a bunch of drive letters and volumes in Windows manually

Then even just a dumb port multiplier to USB3 or eSATA would work fine.  In fact, in those cases, a Port Multiplier would almost certainly substantially outperform something like unRAID.  If you don't care about having one big volume, or data redundancy, and you want to use dissimilar disks, this could be a simple option, that doesn't preclude switching to something like unRAID or RAID 5 later.
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glynor

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 11:23:05 pm »

For giggles, I figured I'd make some alternative recommendations for you (assuming Addonics gear from the Aimtec website you listed).  Not saying these are better than the stuff the guy quoted you, but... Check this option out:

Storage Tower V with one HPM-XA Port Multiplier
£ 154.84
http://www.aimtec.co.uk/addonics-online/storage-towers-disk-array-s/addonics-storage-tower/storage-tower-v-with-one-5x1-hpm-xa-port-multiplier.html

(Even better, see if you can get it with the newer HPM-XU instead, which is eSATA and USB3 with all the various RAID level support.  Addonics sells them in this configuration, but I didn't see it listed on the Aimtec site.)

This gives you 5 5.25 (big, optical sized) bays in an enclosure, with a nice big case with plenty of power.  And, it comes with a 5-port built-in RAID controller/port multiplier that is eSATA compatible.  Though with the older HPM-XA you do need to make sure your esata controller is Port Multiplier compatible (or to get one of the hokey eSATA to USB3 adapter dongles they sell, which probably doesn't perform very well).  If you can, I'd go with the HPM-XU instead.  It has both eSATA and real USB3 built in.

In any case, those are big optical-sized bays, so you'll need a bunch of these too (look elsewhere for better pricing on those though).  Mount your five drives and you can go for a while (and they'll stay nice and cool with all that space).

But... The nice thing about using the larger Storage Tower V (the reason for all that extra space), is precisely that it gives you five full 5.25 bays.  So, it gives you some room to expand without throwing the enclosure out.  So, for example, later on you could add:

1 x Disk Array 5SA - mounts five 3.5" drives in three of those 5.25 slots, and gives you a nice hot-swappable mounting system for them too.
1 x Disk Array 3SA - mounts 3 3.5" drives in the other two slots.
another one of those HPM-XA/U port multipliers (or a better one, those "centronics slots" they plug into are standard sized, and you can get other bridge-boards for them, adapting to MiniSAS or even iSCSI)

That lets you expand up to 8 drives in the future.  If you have the extra cash, you could just buy the 5SA now and get hot swapping and nicer trays now.

You don't have to get their fancy hot-swap things from them, though, you could just get brackets.  There's all manner of brackets that let you mount multiple 3.5" drives in 5.25 bays, both hot-swap and fancy, and simple and cheap brackets.  Stuffing 8-10 drives in that simple 5-bay hunk of enclosure shouldn't prove difficult and should provide a wealth of options and price ranges.

PS. The USB ports on your motherboard's backplane with the blue middle plastic piece are USB3 ports (certainly in your case with that common USB3 controller driver loaded).  You probably don't need the adapter he was talking about though.  When you said "on my motherboard", he thought you meant literally on the surface of your motherboard.  Before they'd finalized the USB3 connector standard, motherboard makers were putting external-style USB3 ports soldered directly to the board, because there was no standard pin-out for USB3 "internal" ports.  His adapter is just a bracket to take these external-style, but internal connectors and put them in a PCI slot on the back of your case.  I'm assuming you have some available USB3 ports on the regular backplane of your motherboard, so you don't need that.

NOTE:  I edited the above a bunch to add more information and links.  I think I'm done now.
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marko

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 01:27:17 am »

Thanks for the replies, I am reading, but finding a little difficult to digest :)

There really is no more space inside the case. It currently holds 5 x 2Tb drives, 1 x 80Gb SSD, 1 x Optical drive and 1 x X-Fi front panel. Slots are are taken up by the X-Fi and a Radeon 5850, leaving a single PCIe x16 slot available and nothing else!

The blue USB 3.0 ports are currently occupied with olde USB 2.0 devices, but they can be moved easily. I don't have any eSATA ports.

The ST-V + HPM-XU (if I can get it) seems a neat option, certainly one that I am slowly beginning to understand.

So, as the picture builds, I'm looking at ~£200 for the case + gadgetry, plus another £250-ish for a couple of 3Tb drives to kick things off. Would I be getting the best out of my £450 if I went this route?

Other thoughts going through my mind are things like:
They say the fan is quiet, glynor says the fan is really quite loud. Is it that bad? Would a slower 120mm fan fit in there? I need quiet!
Presenting the drives as individual disks is preferable for me because it's easier for me to understand, but I have read and fairly well understood glynor's comments regarding the possible bottlenecks this might present. I also see that the XU thing has dip switches... could I start out in 'individual' mode and 'play' with the different dip switch settings over time without data loss? I suspect the answer to this is "No", but am not certain...

If the thing is indeed noisy, would a standard PC case, power supply and one of those XU port jobbies with a PCI converter bracket be a quieter, and perhaps cheaper, option?

-marko

glynor

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 02:36:41 pm »

Other thoughts going through my mind are things like:
They say the fan is quiet, glynor says the fan is really quite loud. Is it that bad? Would a slower 120mm fan fit in there? I need quiet!

I can't really speak to the Storage Tower V, since I have the smaller "Storage Tower".  In mine, it has only one fan:  A tiny 50mm-ish job attached to the power supply.  That wouldn't be easy to mod, as it is "part of" the Power Supply.  With only that one fan, it wasn't really that loud.  The noise it did make was a bit annoying and high-pitched, but..   The main problem with mine noise-wise was when I added the two Disk Array 3SAs, which each have their own 80mm fans.  So now I have two 80mm fans, which seem to run full-tilt no matter what, plus the power supply fan whining away.

The inside of the case would have plenty of room for me to mount my own 120mm fans on the sides, but with the Disk Array inserts, they wouldn't help (as they'd just be blowing on the sides of the disk array things).  So, if you look for some hot swap inserts down the road, you'll want to look for some that are better cooled or quieter.

The bigger Storage Tower V looks like it has one 80mm case-cooling fan, which they advertise as "quiet".  I'd guess it is probably the same 80mm fan that is in the Disk Array thing, so I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope.  This should be very easy to mod with your own fan, though, if needed.  Noctua makes nice quiet fans.  The Power Supply has it's own fan, though, which again will be tough to mod.  Who knows what it sounds like?  On the case, it looks like the cut-out is a 80mm one, so it is almost certainly better than mine!

The blue USB 3.0 ports are currently occupied with olde USB 2.0 devices, but they can be moved easily. I don't have any eSATA ports.

Just a quick note... eSATA is easy to add.  If you have free sata ports inside on your motherboard, you can do it with a cheap bracket.  If not, you can just get a cheap PCIe eSATA card.

Presenting the drives as individual disks is preferable for me because it's easier for me to understand, but I have read and fairly well understood glynor's comments regarding the possible bottlenecks this might present. I also see that the XU thing has dip switches... could I start out in 'individual' mode and 'play' with the different dip switch settings over time without data loss? I suspect the answer to this is "No", but am not certain...

No.  Changing RAID levels (including going from "just a bunch of disks" to a true array) is going to require wiping the disks, as you suspected.  You can certainly play with it though.  That's what's nice about that XU port multiplier.  It is quite flexible.

If the thing is indeed noisy, would a standard PC case, power supply and one of those XU port jobbies with a PCI converter bracket be a quieter, and perhaps cheaper, option?

Before I bought my Storage Tower, this was an option I strongly considered.  If you have a usable old case lying around, and a reliable power supply, then you can almost certainly do it cheaper.  If you need to buy them, then you probably can't do it cheaper (though quieter, for sure).

The main problem is that you won't be able to turn the ATX power supply on without modding it slightly.  This is not the world's most complex mod, but you'd have to do it.

A standard ATX power supply for a computer has the normal 20/24-pin motherboard connector.  On that connector, the green wire is the "On Switch" wire, and it is connected to the motherboard.  Then you separately connect your case's power switch to the motherboard.  When you press the power switch on your case, it tells the motherboard to short the green wire of the 24-pin motherboard connector to ground (connect it to a black wire for a minute) and that tells the Power Supply to turn on.

So, if you have no motherboard, then you can't turn the PSU on, because nothing will be connected to that 20/24-pin motherboard connector.

There are three solutions (ghetto, not-as-ghetto, and cool but complex):

1. Ghetto Solution:  Connect one of these Jump-Start things to your Power Supply's 24-pin motherboard connector and leave it there.  You could accomplish the same thing with a piece of wire sticking out of your PSU's motherboard connector too (or a paperclip) but for long term use, it would be better to have something that isn't going to wiggle out.  This will mean the PSU is "always on" and your only power switch would be the on/off power rocker switch on the PSU itself.

2. Less Ghetto Solution: Instead, wire your case's momentary switch up to the proper pins on your PSU's 24-pin connector, so that when you press the power button on the case, it closes the circuit on the PSU directly (instead of being relayed by the motherboard) and turns on and off normally.  Here are instructions: http://www.directron.com/2powersupplies.html

3. Cool but Complex Solution:  Instead of either of the above, you could wire it to the power supply on your "main" computer, and when you turn on your main computer, it would "follow along".  This would be complicated by the fact that the two power supplies would be in separate physical boxes, but you could pull it off with a little wire and some electrical tape.  Basically, the easiest solution is to get one of these: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5637/cpa-167/Lian_Li_Dual_Power_Supply_Adapter_Cable.html?tl=g11c413s1513

As you can see, this is basically the same thing as option #1, except that instead of just looping the green to the black all the time, it is connected to the "primary" power supply.  So, to use this in a separate computer, you'd have to cut the green/black wires on that second (mostly blank) little ATX 24-pin connector, and attach extension wires long enough for you to put one side in your main PC, and the other in your "storage case".  Once you do that, though, it'd work.  When you turn on your PC, it would turn on the external case.

That all said... I don't know if I'd bother.  The problem is that a big PC case is going to waste all kinds of space.  Yes, of course, you can get a better case, and your connection options will be more flexible.  However, if you're going to get a case with a bunch of hard drive bays, there is still going to be a big, empty space where the motherboard is supposed to go, and probably a bunch of other wasted space.  And, if you want a nice one, it won't be cheap.  A cheap one isn't going to have very many drive bays.  Wouldn't you be better served by just getting a bigger and more bad-ass computer case and expand your drive bays that way?  (PS. I have the Corsair Obsidian 650D and it is awesome.)

So, if you ALREADY have a suitable case and power supply, then this is probably worth investigating.  I did have extra cases and power supplies, and I still decided it was worth it to get a pre-built storage box.  But I almost did it.  My only regret is that I wish I'd have gotten the bigger Storage Tower V instead of the smaller 4-bay model.  It just has a much bigger/nicer Power Supply, more room, and is probably much quieter.
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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 04:15:09 pm »

leaving a single PCIe x16 slot available and nothing else!

I intended to mention, but forgot:  PCIe works backwards.  So, you can put any PCIe card in that slot from a x1 card all the way up to a true x16 card (though it almost certainly only really gets x4 or x8 worth of bandwidth in reality, it won't matter much).

So, if you want to just add some additional SATA to your case, you can use that slot.  Of course, you'd have to also get a new case, so...  :-\
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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 05:38:29 pm »

This made me think...

I'd been remembering "backwards" and forgotten about a fan.  The vanilla Storage Tower has a 80mm fan (I think, I'd have to measure to be sure) integrated into the PSU, and the little tiny 50mm-ish job is just a cooling fan, not part of the PSU.  So I actually have 4 fans going in that thing.  The 80mm-ish on the box's PSU, the little crappy 50mm-ish fan, and then the two 80mm fans on my two Disk Arrays.

I think I'm going to buy a couple of those 80mm Noctua fans and see if I can replace the fans in my Disk Arrays, and I'm going to just disconnect that little whiny 50mm-ish one.  With the two 80's on the Disk Arrays, I almost certainly don't need the little one anyway.  Besides, the Noctuas will pump WAY more air than the stock ones do, I'm sure (and much more quietly).

I'll have to see about modding the PSU fan with a third Noctua.  I'm afraid to open PSUs up though because electrocution is bad.

I still wish I'd gotten the bigger Storage Tower.  Oh well, maybe eventually I'll just get a Rackmount system.

I'm probably not going to do much until they have some nice Thunderbolt > SATA/SAS RAID solutions.  I'd much rather run one Thunderbolt cable over to the external box, instead of my two big, thick 8088 MiniSAS cables.  But what I have works fine now, and I can't see converting it now for no additional performance other than a nicer cable.  It would work on my laptop then, though, which would be cool.  I suspect Thunderbolt will "eat" the midrange of specialized SAS solutions over the next couple years, while USB3 dismantles the low end.  That's good... MiniSAS is cool (how you can plug into a switch for expansion and all of that), but wow it is expensive and tough to deal with in many ways.
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Sparks67

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 06:02:11 pm »

I have tried all of the above listed options, but as you media collection expands.  Then you will eventually run out of hard disk space.  I tried a PC with 10 sata ports, a rackmount server, etc.  These solutions have limits.

Option 1
The best solution is based on a Thunderbolt Motherboard.   This solution allows you to expand in the future.
Although, it requires you to buy a new Motherboard, cpu, and ram.  Thunderbolt allows you to daisy chain the drives with 1 optical thunderbolt cable. 
Go to this link and get the pdf.
http://www.areca.com.tw/products/thunderbolt.htm
Sans Digital is another manufacturer that has developed a similar solution. 

Option 2
Chenbro has some tower cases that allow the drive to be removed.  This is called Hot-Swap. So you fill a drive, then put another one end. Most people now want all their drives online.

http://www.chenbro.com/corporatesite/products_cat.php?pos=11
Supermicro has  some of these cases too.       
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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 06:18:39 pm »

I still wish I'd gotten the bigger Storage Tower.  Oh well, maybe eventually I'll just get a Rackmount system.

I'm probably not going to do much until they have some nice Thunderbolt > SATA/SAS RAID solutions.  I'd much rather run one Thunderbolt cable over to the external box, instead of my two big, thick 8088 MiniSAS cables.  But what I have works fine now, and I can't see converting it now for no additional performance other than a nicer cable.  It would work on my laptop then, though, which would be cool.  I suspect Thunderbolt will "eat" the midrange of specialized SAS solutions over the next couple years, while USB3 dismantles the low end.  That's good... MiniSAS is cool (how you can plug into a switch for expansion and all of that), but wow it is expensive and tough to deal with in many ways.

Here is on how I keep my Rackmount quiet, but I changed the fans on the Norco case.  I have one of these Xrack Pro2 cases.  http://www.quietpcusa.com/XRackPro2-6U-Quiet-Rackmount-Server-Cabinet-Black-P448C94.aspx  The Norco case allows you to use ATX motherboard though. Although it is noisy.  Changing the fans help, but it took this to quiet down more.   I probably should have went the Chenbro case, but you have to run server boards.  AIC case is too expensive.  


The best design will probably be the Areca Arc-8050 with Thunderbolt, because it allows you more choices in the hard drive selection. The biggest advantage with Areca is that it is flexible with OS.  So, if J River develops Mac OS X, then Areca will run in Mountain Lion.   Sans Digital also has a Thunderbolt option coming out.  http://www.storagenewsletter.com/news/systems/sans-digital-thunderbolt
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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2012, 02:28:43 am »

All good info, thank you. (Sparks, I read everything you wrote, twice, but you lost me within three or four sentences.. sorry :()

The man at Aimtec would seem to agree re: the ST-V, which he can do for £190 delivered. That's the case + 1 x HPM-XU.

He could do the case, 2 x HPM-XU plus the 2 x arrays to give eight drive bays for £420 delivered. The extra £230 is only a saving of about £30 over buying the other bits individually later as and when required, so not enough of a saving for me to raid my piggy bank for.

He also offered a case with five 'snap-in' bays for an extra £120, but I don't feel the added convenience is worth that extra outlay, or am I missing something, are they for more than just convenience?

Final questions before I add to basket...

If I go with a RAID approach, '5' appears to be the most sensible to me, with two drives to begin with, can I simply add more in over time to increase the total space available?
Do the added drives all need to be the same capacity? I have a 500Gb and a 200Gb paperweight on my desk at the moment, could they be put to use along side a couple of 3Tb drives, and if yes, when the time came to expand capacity, could I simply whip out the 200Gb drive and add a 3Tb drive in its place, without data loss?

-marko

glynor

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2012, 08:14:15 am »

The man at Aimtec would seem to agree re: the ST-V, which he can do for £190 delivered. That's the case + 1 x HPM-XU.

That's a pretty good deal (especially considering typical UK pricing, aka bend over).  It sells for $215.00 US (plus shipping and tax, if applicable) here direct from Addonics.

He also offered a case with five 'snap-in' bays for an extra £120, but I don't feel the added convenience is worth that extra outlay, or am I missing something, are they for more than just convenience?

I bet he means the Disk Array 5SA.  It is mostly for convenience.  It also allows you to fit more drives in (the five-drive model can fit in only 3 5.25" optical bays), but mostly it is hot-swap convenience.

I wouldn't do that.  That's the part of mine that is loud.

If I go with a RAID approach, '5' appears to be the most sensible to me, with two drives to begin with, can I simply add more in over time to increase the total space available?
Do the added drives all need to be the same capacity? I have a 500Gb and a 200Gb paperweight on my desk at the moment, could they be put to use along side a couple of 3Tb drives, and if yes, when the time came to expand capacity, could I simply whip out the 200Gb drive and add a 3Tb drive in its place, without data loss?

If you go with RAID, then I agree, RAID5 (or 6 on supported hardware, but that's rare except for with expensive controllers) is the only sensible choice.

However, you might not be able to, or may not want to.  A few things to answer your questions:

1. RAID5 requires a minimum of 3 drives.

2. Total storage: In RAID5, in order to perform the "parity magic" (what allows a drive to fail without losing any data at all from the array), you give up some of your total space.  The total "available" storage space in a RAID5 array is equal to N - 1 (where N is the number of drives in the array).  So, if you build an array with 3 1TB drives, you'll have 2TB of formatted space on the array.  If you build an array of 6 1TB drives, you get 5TB of formatted space.

3. As I mentioned above, "true" RAID works best if the drives all match each other.  While you can use dissimilar drives, the array will limit you to the "lowest common denominator" in both speed and capacity.  So, if you build an array with 4 disks total, but they are one 1TB, two 2TB, and 1 3TB drives, the RAID controller will "treat" each of those as a 1TB drive and your total capacity would only be 3TB (1+1+1+1=4-1=3).  So, you don't want to do that.  That is the primary problem unRAID and Drobo are designed to solve.

4. Online Capacity Expansion: Some RAID controllers support what is called Online Capacity Expansion (and/or Online RAID Level Migration).  This allows you to add new drives to an existing array (or change the "type" of RAID from RAID 5 to RAID 6 for example) without reformatting.  However, this is typically a higher-end feature found only on fancier cards (though it is trickling down, my miniSAS card isn't that expensive and supports it).  I would assume that the HPM-XU would NOT support OCE, but you'd have to ask the rep to be sure.  If it does not support Online Capacity Expansion, then you'd need to reformat the volume to add a new disk to it later.  Again, this is another problem that unRAID and Drobo and other similar "not RAID, but like RAID" systems are designed to solve.
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glynor

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2012, 08:55:42 am »

3. As I mentioned above, "true" RAID works best if the drives all match each other.  While you can use dissimilar drives, the array will limit you to the "lowest common denominator" in both speed and capacity.  So, if you build an array with 4 disks total, but they are one 1TB, two 2TB, and 1 3TB drives, the RAID controller will "treat" each of those as a 1TB drive and your total capacity would only be 3TB (1+1+1+1=4-1=3).  So, you don't want to do that.  That is the primary problem unRAID and Drobo are designed to solve.

4. Online Capacity Expansion: Some RAID controllers support what is called Online Capacity Expansion (and/or Online RAID Level Migration).  This allows you to add new drives to an existing array (or change the "type" of RAID from RAID 5 to RAID 6 for example) without reformatting.  However, this is typically a higher-end feature found only on fancier cards (though it is trickling down, my miniSAS card isn't that expensive and supports it).  I would assume that the HPM-XU would NOT support OCE, but you'd have to ask the rep to be sure.  If it does not support Online Capacity Expansion, then you'd need to reformat the volume to add a new disk to it later.  Again, this is another problem that unRAID and Drobo and other similar "not RAID, but like RAID" systems are designed to solve.

If these two items are important to you, and high performance isn't a primary concern, then this is what I'd probably recommend:

Try out FlexRAID with both RAID-F and Storage Pooling.  This will solve both of these problems.  FlexRAID is basically a Drobo/unRAID implementation for Windows (and Linux, but you don't run Linux so who cares).  It was written/designed by an AVSForum member for his own use, and has (relatively recently) been turned into a commercial product.  Right now, it is $50 (US) for a license that allows you to implement both RAID-F (which provides the real-time RAID5 like redundancy) and Storage Pooling (which allows you to "merge" drives into one drive letter).

There is a 14-day free trial, so you can try it out before you buy it.

Basically, to use this, you'd leave the HPM-XU in regular port multiplier mode (each drive shows up in Windows as a separate disk).  Then, you'd format the drives through FlexRAID.  This will allow you to add any drive in your system (whether in the Addonics box or directly attached to your PC) to the "pool" and configure the data redundancy (drive failure protection) in a variety of ways.  It will allow you to expand the size of the volume(s) later, use dissimilar disks, and all that good stuff.

FlexRAID can also import existing drives with their data intact, and make them part of an existing "pool" or use them to create a new pool.  So, you could take a bunch of your existing drives that already contain data, and "merge" them into one volume without having to reformat the whole thing.  This is a benefit of the fact that FlexRAID runs "on top of" the filesystem rather than "underneath" it like a more traditional RAID system.

It does all of this fancy stuff at the cost of some performance (as explained above), but in all likelihood, this wouldn't be a problem for your described use-cases.  In any case, you can try it out, and if you don't like it, you can just use them as independent drives like you'd planned to/are doing now.  Similarly, since FlexRAID runs on top of the existing filesystem, all of your data is just stored on a normal NTFS drive underneath the fancy chrome.  So, if you ever decide you hate it and you want to go back to boring independent disks, you can without losing all of that data.

It is similar to Drive Bender, but I think a bit more advanced in design.  I should note, though... I've read a LOT of reviews and details about the system, but I haven't actually used it personally (since I did build a real RAID5 system, and it doesn't run on OSX, I don't have a need right now).
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marko

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2012, 12:11:05 pm »

Understood.

I'll sort myself out with an ST-V next week and play around with the various config options.

glynor, once again, thank you very much for your invaluable guidance. I'll let you know how this works out once the hardware is in place.

-marko

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2012, 02:21:42 am »

Update

Picked up a couple of 3tb drives from eBuyer for £110 each.

Addonics tower arrived yesterday and is up and running with the two displaced 2tb drives plus a 500gb and a 200gb that had been paperweights for a couple of years.

Drive Bender has them plus the internal drives pooled into two virtual drives and all would appear to be well. File transfers zip along at between 90 - 110 Mb/s which will do for me.

Thanks to Nathan for the Drive Bender tip (I checked out Drive Pool and freeware Liquesce, but went with Bender as it seemed the more intuitive to me.

Thanks (again) to glynor for the invaluable advice and feedback. I should now be well sorted for storage space for a few years to come.

-marko.

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2012, 07:15:43 am »

I've tested and bought 2 licenses of DB after reading about it here on the forums. Unfortunately during the small scale tests I experienced no faults but I ran into MAJOR issues with deadlocks during write and read actions on drive bender volumes on 2 different setups soon after bringing it live. I had disks dissapearing and the management interface hanging on mount points. I've reported them to support and they were very quick to respond. They acknowledged the issue and explained they had a few reports of it, but never to the extend I had it and certainly not on 2 different setups. I supplied debug logs from 2 different pc's on request.

Anyway, a couple of days later they messaged me there was a fix available. Thumbs up!

Support so far has been very good and with the latest version the deadlocks and other issues seem to have dissapeared. Despite having had these issues I'm very happy with the product now.
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rjm

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2012, 07:46:20 pm »

I've tested and bought 2 licenses of DB after reading about it here on the forums. Unfortunately during the small scale tests I experienced no faults but I ran into MAJOR issues with deadlocks during write and read actions on drive bender volumes on 2 different setups soon after bringing it live. I had disks dissapearing and the management interface hanging on mount points. I've reported them to support and they were very quick to respond. They acknowledged the issue and explained they had a few reports of it, but never to the extend I had it and certainly not on 2 different setups. I supplied debug logs from 2 different pc's on request.

Anyway, a couple of days later they messaged me there was a fix available. Thumbs up!

Support so far has been very good and with the latest version the deadlocks and other issues seem to have dissapeared. Despite having had these issues I'm very happy with the product now.

Just a comment that this reinforces my belief about the importance of avoiding complexity. I have not and probably won't use Raid or DB or any other solution that adds a layer of complexity. Every drive I own is manually backed up to 2 other drives, 1 of which is powered off and disconnected from the world except during backup, and I periodically do byte for byte binary verifications to test integrity. It's more work and probably a more expensive way to go but I never have failures due to Raid hardware, or firmware, or software that I read so much about. People frequently buy fancy technology to make themselves more robust then spend a bunch of time fighting new problems in the very thing they bought to reduce problems, and can never really be certain that the thing is working as advertised.

When I saw the thread on DB I was initially excited because it seemed to have potential as a lower complexity solution. Maybe it still does. Or maybe it will work until Microsoft's next patch. Who knows?
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jmone

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2012, 07:55:31 pm »

I am happy with DB as it just uses NTFS mount points (and you can still add a drive letter to each physical drive if you want).  It is sort of like the JBOD but not done at a HW or OS Level, just in std Win APIs.  It grew from when MS pulled Drive Pooling out of WHS (where I used it) and the DB folk wrote a replacement that would run on any Win platform.

I was less happy when adding more SATA ports and corrupting my data when I plugged all my drives in the RocketRAID 2720SGL.  Like RJM, I too have 0 interest in RAID and the complexity it adds for home use and as my recent experience shows, nothing beats a real backup!
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rjm

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2012, 08:03:32 pm »

I am happy with DB as it just uses NTFS mount points (and you can still add a drive letter to each physical drive if you want).  It is sort of like the JBOD but not done at a HW or OS Level, just in std Win APIs. 
I read all of their technical information and was impressed with the simplicity and potential robustness of the idea. Let's hope they are successful at making their software bulletproof.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2012, 03:24:22 am »

I've used RAID at home a few times and got burnt each time. Even with hardware addon cards offering RAID solutions. I will *never*ever* use it again at home. Not even in a NAS. In fact, the NAS I bought I already sold again because I think it sucks big time.

Drive Bender is different. When I ran into the issues I described a few posts above, I simply removed the mount point from Drive Bender, added a drive letter to each physical drive again and moved my data folders from the Drive Bender folder back to the root of the physical volume.

The ONLY issue with this is that files that you'd want to keep together (lets say \My Documents) are now on each physical drive in \Drive Bender Folder\My Documents. Those folders need to be merged on one drive and that takes time if theres a lot to move, that's all.
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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2012, 03:27:44 am »

Oh I forgot, the reason why I use Drive Bender is because some of my data (like Series or Movies) is bigger than a single drive. I don't want to maintain data spread over several drive letters, with multiple shares for the rest of the home network.

With DB, its all on one drive letter, a single folder and a single share. Easily expanded or shrunk at will. Create multiple pools (basically a logical volume consisting of 1 or more drives bundled together) you can backup one pool to another, just like you do with single physical drives.
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jmone

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2012, 05:10:11 am »

Yup - for me DB abstracts what physical drive stuff is on, just like a HDD abstracts what platter stuff is one.  I too back up from one DB pool to another.
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Sparks67

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2012, 02:50:51 pm »

If you buy a cheap RAID card, then expect to have problems. Hight Point RocketRaid is junk.   
1) Majority of the time people don't read the manual on setting up RAID. 
   a) Is it complex?  A little, but if you follow the manual, then you won't have any problems.
2) Most people buy cheap drives and then blame it on the raid card. 
   a) All RAID cards will have a support section.  Here is Areca's brands to buy http://www.areca.us//support/download/RaidCards/Documents/Hardware/HDDCompatibilityList.zip

I have just one drive letter, so it works well for me. 
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rjm

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2012, 04:10:02 pm »

Oh I forgot, the reason why I use Drive Bender is because some of my data (like Series or Movies) is bigger than a single drive. I don't want to maintain data spread over several drive letters, with multiple shares for the rest of the home network.

With DB, its all on one drive letter, a single folder and a single share. Easily expanded or shrunk at will. Create multiple pools (basically a logical volume consisting of 1 or more drives bundled together) you can backup one pool to another, just like you do with single physical drives.

That's a really compelling reason. I like each of my media types to be on a single volume.

I back up everything to a set of drives on a server and I see how DB could pool drives on the server to match the pool on my desktop. But I also backup to a set of external e-Sata drives in individual enclosures and it's not clear how I would do this with DB.
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jmone

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2012, 04:15:00 pm »

You can create a pool that includes some or all of the e-sata drives (or USB, or.... any size HDD or connection method).
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rjm

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2012, 04:54:39 pm »

You can create a pool that includes some or all of the e-sata drives (or USB, or.... any size HDD or connection method).
I can only connect 2 e-SATAs at a time. I have 6 external drives. Can a pool contain one or more disconnected drives?
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jmone

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2012, 05:50:23 pm »

I don't know - a post over a DB Forum would sort it out, but even if it is possible I'm not sure if it would be of much help as you would still have to swap drives etc then do a bit of the copy, repeat ...
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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2012, 02:05:15 am »

I would NOT include an external drive to a pool. Way too many things can go wrong in my mind and I have no clue how DB would handle unplugging pooled drives.
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marko

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2012, 01:05:49 pm »

I've bumped into an issue with having two DB pools on the one system, namely, one mounts correctly when windows starts, while the second, every time, fails. In the log, it says "Mounting failed, will try again in a few seconds"

Sure enough, between 30 seconds to a minute later, the second pool appears in My Computer, but by that time, other processes have started and have been looking for that drive, throwing up errors left right and center regarding missing file paths etc. etc.

I've tried all kinds of different configurations, and no matter what I try, there's always a delay mounting the second pool.

I thought I could get around this by stuffing all the drives in one pool and using different mount points, but that won't work for me because I can't specify which drives a mount point should use.

I'm working around it at the moment, but am a little disappointed with this set back.

-marko.

InflatableMouse

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Re: Need more storage, no SATA ports free... 2nd opinions?
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2012, 02:28:43 pm »

Marko,

I'm afraid I can't help you with the issue but if I were you I'd enable debugging from the console, restart your PC and let the errors occur. Disable debugging after a few minutes, find the log and attach it to a case for DB Support.

So far I have only heard good stories on their support department. If I hadn't gone on holiday immediately after logging my case it would have been solved within a week.
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