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[Matt]

I want to make v18 support playback of different types of content using different DSP settings, output devices, etc.

In the past we've discussed whether this system should be based on DSP Presets or Zones.  I think it should be based on Zones because they allow targeting different audio and video hardware along with all the DSP settings.  It would be nice to be able to copy DSP Studio settings between zones or even attach settings to certain files, but this is a side topic.

I think you should be able to create a "Zone Group".  For example, I might create this structure:

Theater [zone group]
    Music [zone]
    Classical [zone]
    Movies [zone]

There would be a configuration dialog for the Zone Group where I'd set rules for when to use each of the child zones.  For example, I'd say 'If the genre is classical, use the Classical zone'.

When using the program, if I pick the 'Theater' zone, playback would be directed to the appropriate zone, and the other zones in the group would be stopped. 

Normally all zones have their own volume control, but I don't know if the zones in a group should share volume somehow?

I'm also not sure if it's better to create a parent / child relationship where you could never explicitly activate a child (you would only use the zone group), or if it's better to create the zone group side-by-side so that you could target the zone group or any zone in the group.

I'd appreciate any feedback, as I'm still in the brainstorming stages for this whole thing.

[Scolex]

I think it should be based on both Zone (group) and DSP presets (sub-groups)
Examples:
Living Room (A/V):
HDMI
Video Movie, Music Video, TV Show
Audio Rock, Metal, Pop, etc

Man Cave (A/V):
Monitor 3
SPDIF 5.1
Video; Movie, Music Video, TV Show
Audio; Rock, Metal, Pop, etc

Computer Room (A/V):
Monitor 2
Analog (SL, SR, BL, BR, C remapped to FL, FR, SL, SR, C/Sub)
Video; Movie, Music Video, TV Show
Audio; Rock, Metal, Pop, etc

Deck (Audio):
Analog (LF, RF, Sub)
Audio; Rock, Metal, Pop, etc
Audio; Rock, Metal, Pop, etc

If I am in the Living Room zone and select a Video/Movie it selects MOVIE.dsp if I select Audio/Rock it selects Rock.dsp conversely I would
like to be able to tag items with a Zone tag so if I select a song where [Zone] = Deck it automatically sends it to the zone in my backyard. 

On a side note I would like to be able to incorporate a time based DSP switch. The reason being is my fiancee can't get to sleep unless
I cut the bass or turn the volume down to a point of straining to hear on low volume passages. I have EQ presets that I manually activate
but being able to automate it would be really nice.

I think that the enormity of the possibilities makes it hard to nail down what the best structure would be and just the thought of media specific
DSP setting send my mind into overdrive. You could literally have dozens maybe hundreds of configurations the questions is how many levels
should there be. I personally would like 3 levels (Zone-->Media Type-->Sub Type/Genre/Mood/etc)

[mojave]

Scolex, your examples also work under Matt's model. The sub-groups need to be zones since the subgroups might require different outputs for audio.

Example:
Living Room (A/V):
HDMI - Video Movie, Music Video, TV Show
Analog - Audio Rock, Metal, Pop, etc

In this example the Zone Group is living room and child zones have their own DSP Settings and output settings. In this case the subzones are named according to their output. I might have the following:

Living Room
     2 Channel Music - EQ 1
     2 Channel Music - EQ 2
     Multi-channel Music
     Movies
     Kids

These should still be a zone instead of just DSP presets because I need to change the internal volume maximum for them. The kids zone would have a lower maximum volume to prevent them from playing something too loud.

Someone else might need a subzone for Red October HQ and another subzone for Red October or custom video filters. These instances also require the subzones to be actually zones instead of just DSP presets.

conversely I would like to be able to tag items with a Zone tag so if I select a song where [Zone] = Deck it automatically sends it to the zone in my backyard.

That is an interesting idea. I can see having "dinner music" where it plays in both the Living Room and Kitchen zones whenever I start playback. This would require the zones to be linked just for this type of music, but not linked for other types. This would require the ability for a zone group to include other zone groups as its child groups.

Dinner Music
  Living Room
  Dining Room
  Kitchen

I'm also not sure if it's better to create a parent / child relationship where you could never explicitly activate a child (you would only use the zone group)

The parent/child seems more intuitive to me. However, it would be important to be able to copy the child zones to other group zones. In my example above I might want to listen to music sometimes with EQ1 and sometimes with EQ2. This might just be for testing purposes to check and measure bass management settings or even different convolution filters. In this case, I would have two zone groups:

Living Room EQ1
     2 channel music
     Multi-channel Music
     Movies
     Kids

Living Room EQ2
     2 channel music
     Multi-channel Music
     Movies
     Kids

I would just switch between zone groups rather than being able to select the sub zone separately.

One thing that has frustrated me with bass management is that if I want to change a crossover frequency, I have to go into each speaker and change it. There is no global option to link speakers. With zones, I think it would be nice to have the ability to change something globally and have the option to have it propagate to child zones. For example, if I am using convolution and decide to use a different filter, it would be easier to just change the filter in the parent zone and have it automatically propagate to the child zones than to have to load the filter for every child zone. This enables the parent/child zone relationship to be much more powerful. It could be as easy as a checkbox in the parent zone that says, "Apply changes to subzones." This would make it easy to setup the subzones, too. You could add each subzone, define all similar settings in the parent zone, and then uncheck the box and go to each subzone for making the individual changes. There should also be a setting on a subzone that says, "Don't inherit changes from parent zone" so that the subzone could be locked from changes. I realize the parent is actually just a group heading and not really a zone, but you get the idea (I hope).

One child zone would need to be set as the default zone (or actually have a parent zone instead of a group). This way when defining your criteria for the child zones, you wouldn't leave something out. In my example above, Movies might be my default zone. I wouldn't even have to define any criteria for it. I would then add criteria to the other zones. If it meets the criteria, it gets routed to the other child zones otherwise it just goes to the Movies child zone.

To summarize my ideas:

  I agree with the parent/child zone groupings
  Ability to group other groups together for a linked group relationship 
  Ability to propagate changes from one zone to others within a parent group
  Ability to lock a child zone from propagated changes
  Ability set a child zone as default for that group

[cncb]

Please combine this with Library Server Clients maintaining the Playing Now list between sessions (for each zone) and it sounds like it would be perfect.

[Scolex]

I figure a picture is worth a 1000 words.
When you select a Zone (title) it is highlighted and it's playback options are loaded in the upper right window.
Selection boxes appear next to the DSP presets for activating that preset and a description of it's settings
loads in the lower right window. Active DSP items are highlighted and clicking a title opens DSP Studio to it's
respective page.

If you select a DSP preset (title) selection boxes appear next to the Zones to show which zones are utilizing that preset.
You can add/remove that preset to/from zones by selecting/clearing their selection box.

[glynor]

I think you should be able to create a "Zone Group".  For example, I might create this structure:

Theater [zone group]
    Music [zone]
    Classical [zone]
    Movies [zone]

There would be a configuration dialog for the Zone Group where I'd set rules for when to use each of the child zones.  For example, I'd say 'If the genre is classical, use the Classical zone'.

When using the program, if I pick the 'Theater' zone, playback would be directed to the appropriate zone, and the other zones in the group would be stopped.

This all sounds very good to me.

Normally all zones have their own volume control, but I don't know if the zones in a group should share volume somehow?

I see what you're getting at, but it would have to be optional in the config of the Zone Group.  Many different output devices are going to have wildly different "real world volume" levels.  So, you might not want the same volume on your analog outs that you have on your HDMI out.  In fact, you probably don't.  Otherwise you are going to get blasted out of your chair.

That makes me think of something else entirely, but I'll post that in a separate thread.

I'm also not sure if it's better to create a parent / child relationship where you could never explicitly activate a child (you would only use the zone group), or if it's better to create the zone group side-by-side so that you could target the zone group or any zone in the group.

I think parent\child will be easier to understand.

However, I think I see what you're getting at.  I think an easier way to solve that problem would be to simply make it easy to duplicate (copy\paste) zones in the config dialog.  But maybe I'm not fully understanding the alternative... What do you mean by side-by-side exactly?

[jgreen]

I think a "Zone" is a discreet instance of the MC player, with EVERYTHING configurable without effect on other zones.  All zones can pull from the MC library, subject to disk or network traffic issues.

For example, today, if you click on Playing Now (PN) you have opened up a "zone".  Today, if you click PN a second time nothing new happens.  But what if you could open up a new "zone" by opening up a new PN?  IMO the trick here is to attach all video, audio, etc configuration to the zone, but it could be done easily with a consistent labelling scheme. 

Regarding groups, I don't see the need for it or even the benefit, and I see a lot of downside in complexity.  Is there an under-the-hood issue that would require groups?

Umm, I hope I understood the question.   

[Matt]

Regarding groups, I don't see the need for it or even the benefit, and I see a lot of downside in complexity.  Is there an under-the-hood issue that would require groups?

So you'd just set a rule for a zone like "Always use this zone if I play a movie" (or 'play something with dinosaurs' in your words)?

You might be right, but I'm getting stuck on a few details.

What should happen if I right-click a movie and pick Send To > Music Zone > Play?  And if I play a movie, should it automatically stop other zones like my music zone?  But what zones should it stop?  If there isn't a grouping, how does it know?

[glynor]

And if I play a movie, should it automatically stop other zones like my music zone?  But what zones should it stop?  If there isn't a grouping, how does it know?

This is the main issue.  There needs to be a way to "group" Zones together to make them mutually exclusive, while not losing the ability to play to multiple zones simultaneously.

You could do it simpler by simply adding a zone configuration "stop all other playing zones when this one starts", but that would be far less flexible than Matt's original proposition.

Perhaps what is feeling confusing is simply the naming/organization of the parent/child relationship.  Maybe instead of creating a new "top tier" Zone Groups, you create Zone Profiles (or Sub-Zones) below the existing Zones system.  So, this would be the workflow:

1. You have existing Zones, just like we have now.
2. When you have a particular Zone that you want to add "flexible handling" to, you add one or more Zone Profiles (or Sub-Zones or whatever you want to call it).
3. Zone Profiles look/act just like "real Zones" in what they encompass and the options they expose.
4. The Zone Profile, rather than the parent, has the filters where you do the If ([Genre] contains [Dinosaurs]) then use this Zone bit.  This makes the filters simpler too, as you don't have to specify which Zone to use as the result of the If.  It just applies to the current Zone Profile, just like filters on a View/Smarlist.  In fact you could even use the same UI widget.
5. These new Zone Profiles automatically inherit the settings of the parent zone, but can override them.  In other words, Zone-settings applied in the "parent Zone" pass through to the children, but you can go in and change any of them (just like you would for the parent), and then that setting becomes Zone Profile specific.
6. Each "top-level" Zone that contains Sub-Zones/Profiles has two new available options: "link Volume for Sub-Zones" and "Limit Playback to One Sub-Zone at a time".  These could default to on, but you could turn them off if you want to.

It would still be the parent/child relationship, but it would start with the system we already have.  If someone doesn't need to use or want to know about the new settings, there would be nothing new to learn (Zones would still be Zones and you could ignore the new child stuff).  Plus, it would be actually more flexible (since you could have sub-Zones that don't link playback state/volume, which might be cool).

Intuitively, this might be better because with your original organization, it would be confusing to have some Zones that have no children (regular old non-auto-switching ones), and some that are special and are called Zone Groups and work differently.

And lastly, it solves some of the Copy/Paste settings problems through inheritance.

[jgreen]

Matt, it sounds less like a "group" and more like a default preference for playback.

Currently, I have PNs called "Play Audio" and "Play Video", with the appropriate playback settings enabled, although there are some problematic overlaps with the GUI, and some shortcomings in available configs.

Anyway, if I double click any library file to play, MC sends it to the last viewed PN.  If it's in the wrong PN I simply send it to the other one.  Under "right click/send to . . ."  I can find both of my PNs and send to the propr one that way, but it could be streamlined.  And once again, certain settings are interdependent.

So, if "groups" means "defaults", I'm all for it.  But I think "Zones" is a powerful concept and ought to be exploited to the limit.  Regarding "Parent/Child", this seems bound to end up in an explosion of feathers.  Isn't there any way to make it even more complex?

[glynor]

The more I think about it, the more this style seems to "fit" better.

It matches, nearly exactly, the relationship in Views and child-Views in Standard View.  Plus, that Filter this Sub-Zone based on tags panel should need no explanation because it could be essentially identical to the Smartlist/View-filtering dialog.

Of course, implementing the inheritance might be a pain, depending on how Zones are designed under-the-hood.  But, I don't care about that part.  

[jgreen]

ALSO:  The point of a "Zone" is that it doesn't affect another zone (IMO).  Granted, there could be some odd results, for example on one machine playing BOTH a movie from z1 and audio from z2 and outputing over the same path.  But isn't this possible already?  If I open two Youtube windows and play two vids, I get both audios coming over the same channels, but I can figure out what's going on and silence one of them.  

[glynor]

If I open two Youtube windows and play two vids, I get both audios coming over the same channels, but I can figure out what's going on and silence one of them.  

Right, but leaving it as-is would defeat the stated purpose of this feature which is:  To allow you to define per-media-type Zones.  In other words, to have different handling for Audio files than you do Video files.  Or maybe different handling of [Genre]=Classical than other kinds of music.  Stuff like that, applied automatically.

If you always had to remember to stop playback first before picking a different [Genre] of music, that wouldn't be very usable.  What if you have a playlist of some Rock and some Classical, and you want the Rock music to have JRSS, but the classical to always be bit-perfect 2-channel analog?  What if you want different handling for videos with a certain tag, but you might play in sequence?  So it has to happen automatically.  But only with these "specially linked zones", not across the board.

[jgreen]

"To allow you to define per-media-type Zones."

Umm, could somebody tell me where to find this stated purpose? 

While I also want default zones based on media type, why not have saved zones based on pre-configuration (including but not limited to media type)?  Every time JRiver gets down to bidness and creates a "studio"-type configuration dialogue box, intricate operations get a lot simpler, and the program gets more powerful.  Why not have a zone configuration dialogue box, and a default zone as it is now?

Bottom line:  I could very well be misunderstanding this whole conversation.  Only time will tell!  My only point is, I don't understand why we need parent/child schemes, unless something in the program says we have to have it.

FWIW!

[glynor]

I want to make v18 support playback of different types of content using different DSP settings, output devices, etc.

In the past we've discussed whether this system should be based on DSP Presets or Zones.  I think it should be based on Zones because they allow targeting different audio and video hardware along with all the DSP settings.

Plus, people have asked for it (including myself) for years in the forums.

I think Matt's proposed system would offer way MORE than most people expect, which is just to allow Audio and Video to have separate default zones.  Matt's system would allow you to use expressions and complex logic to auto-select the most appropriate zone based on a wide range of tags and conditions, which is awesome.

The "grouping" would allow you to have more than one of these "sets of Zones".

For example, maybe you want this kind of setup on your Home Theater PC:

Zone 1:  "Regular Zone" (normal playback settings)
    Sub-Zone "Classical": [Media Type]=Audio and [Genre]=Classical, then output passthrough analog audio, and disable all other DSP settings.
    Sub-Zone "Rock": [Media Type]=Audio and [Genre] is not [Classical], then output 5.1 channel audio using JRSS and enable the EQ set to Rock and Roll.
    Sub-Zone "Vocal": [Media Sub Type]=Audiobook or Podcast, then output 2 channel analog audio, enable the EQ set to "enhance speaking vocals mode".
    Sub-Zone "Video": [Media Type]=Video, output 5.1 channel HDMI with JRSS enabled, set EQ to "Cinema".
Zone 2:  "Kitchen Zone" (uses a separate audio out on system to send music to the two speaker setup you have in the Kitchen - can be used simultaneously with "regular" mode)
    Sub-Zone "Classical": [Media Type]=Audio and [Genre]=Classical, then output passthrough analog audio, and disable all other DSP settings.
    Sub-Zone "Rock": [Media Type]=Audio and [Genre] is not [Classical], then output 2 channel audio, and enable the EQ set to Rock and Roll
    Sub-Zone "Vocal": [Media Sub Type]=Audiobook or Podcast, then output 2 channel analog audio, enable the EQ set to "enhance speaking vocals mode"
Zone 3:  "Den Projector" (uses second HDMI out to send A/V to the surround system and projector in the den, again, can be used simultaneously)
    Sub-Zone "Classical": [Media Type]=Audio and [Genre]=Classical, then output passthrough digital PCM through the HDMI out, and disable all other DSP settings.
    Sub-Zone "Rock": [Media Type]=Audio and [Genre] is not [Classical], then output 5.1 channel audio (HDMI) using JRSS and enable the EQ set to Rock and Roll.
    Sub-Zone "Vocal": [Media Sub Type]=Audiobook or Podcast, then output 2 channel (HDMI) audio, enable the EQ set to "enhance speaking vocals mode".
    Sub-Zone "Video": [Media Type]=Video, output 5.1 channel HDMI with JRSS enabled, set EQ to "Cinema".

How would you do this without being able to define multiple groups?

[jgreen]

Okay, for starters I've got the whole thing backwards, I think.

The "Zone" is the parent ot the group, and additional, OPTIONAL sub-zones appear to be sprouting out in your example.  Is this right?  Is there any reason we HAVE to have sub-zones?  Aren't these really just configs?

I'm trying to get it!!

[jgreen]

I think the problem I'm having is that the "Zone" seems still tied to the hardware, and I view this relationship as a subset of the ENTIRE config (DSP, Playing Now UI).

[glynor]

That's the way I was suggesting it be set up.  Matt's suggestion was the same, except to call what I was calling "Zones", Zone Groups instead.  Doesn't really matter, as it is effectively the same either way.  That's just semantics.

How would you suggest that someone have the configuration I described above if they weren't linked in groups?

In other words, in my example above, when you switch Zones, you'd only have three to choose from:  Regular Zone, Kitchen Zone, and Den Projector Zone.  Those Sub-Zones would all be selected automatically.  Not only would you NOT want to pick them manually, you COULD NOT pick them manually.

But when you pick from those three, and then play something, they'd automatically switch outputs and configuration (everything currently part of the Zone definition, including detached displays, and audio outputs, and DSP, and video settings, and everything) depending on what was playing right now.

So, if you played a playlist that was shuffled with both Classical music and Rock music mixed together to the Regular Zone, it would automatically turn JRSS on and off for each classical/non-classical track.  If you played a playlist that contained both Audio and Video mixed together, the video's audio would "come out" of the HDMI output, and the music would come out of your analog outs.

[glynor]

It doesn't have to be separate hardware.

I use Zones for lots of different "kinds of situations".  But, within those situations, there are cases where I want one setting for one kind of media, and a different setting for a different kind of media.

So, for example, I have a "headphone zone" on my HTPC.  It sends audio down the HDMI out just like my "Regular Zone" does.  However, it is set to two-channel stereo mode.  I don't want JRSS set to 5.1 on that zone, because it is for when I have headphones on!  (Actually, for video, I do have JRSS enabled, but to downmix rather than upmix.)  So, the settings in the zone are all different.

But I cannot have different EQ setups for Genre=Classical than I do for Genre=Drum and Bass, without switching manually.  This would allow you to switch the EQ automatically, depending on any file tag, for example.  So, within my Headphones Zone, I could have different EQ settings for different styles of media, and these could be different-from the ones that would be used when I was using my 5.1 surround outputs in my "Regular Zone"  (again, this all uses the same exact HDMI output from my HTPC).

Or you could flag certain videos to always play in a detached display, based on a keyword or user-defined field, whereas most of your video plays normally.  All sorts of amazing things would be possible.  But only if zones can be auto-triggered.

But you can't auto-trigger zones and still retain the ability to play to two separate zones automatically without having some way to "group" them together.

[jmone]

I'm very happy with the idea of Zones <-> Content matching regardless of how it appears in the first iteration. 

One thing I'd like to be able to do however is this example as there is no way to currently do it appart from having a library for each PC:

Content: Music Video with 2 Audio Streams (5.1 DTS-MA, and a 2.0 PCM) and when playing back to:
- HTPC 5.1 System (JRSS set to mix to 5.1):  Play the 5.1 DTS-MA Stream as default
- Main PC 2.0 System (JRSS set to mix to 2.0): Play the 2.0 PCM Stream Audio track as default

At present, the MC Library records the last stream selected for each track, so I've now got an odd mix of streams being used on a single album (see pic) and the associated issues of different perceived vol levels and mixing due to the different streams being used and the JRSS handling for each track eg:
- Track 1: No Playback Info and LAV will auto select audio track #2 as it is the "best" track (DTS-MA 5.1)
- Track 2: Audio Track 2 has been selected at some time in the past (eg it is my preferred track to use on the HTPC with it's 5.1 speaker setup)
- Track 3: Audio Track 3 has been selected at some time in the past (eg it is my preferred track to use on the PC with it's 2.0 speaker setup)

I'm not sure if the Zones concept would work, but I'd like to be able to have each zone with the ability to select the preferred Audio Stream...... 

[jmone]

Just occurred to me that the simplest solution would be for Playback Info to be "Zone" aware, eg

[ZONE(HTPC:MusicVideo)(1:1)(7:Streams)(3:0,2)] [ZONE(MAINPC:MusicVideo)(1:1)(7:Streams)(3:0,1)]

This would then mean that any manual customisation done on a particular zone for Playback Info (Lang, Subs, Audio, Crop, Crop Edges, Zoom, Resolution, Frame Rate etc etc) will be recorded and then correctly used only for the relevant zone.

Brilliant I say!

[glynor]

The more I've thought about this, the more I think it makes more sense to forget about the distinction between Zone Groups and Zones, and make them just like Views.

In other words, the general idea being:

• Zones can have filters which cause them to be auto-triggered, defined in a dialog that looks/works essentially identically to the Edit Search dialog in Views/Smartlists.  Or they can have none, in which case they would work just like the current ones (and they are manually enabled/disabled).
• You can define a Zone within a Zone.  Child Zones inherit their parent Zone's auto-activation rules, if any.
• Zone activation "trickles down" the hierarchy.  In other words, for a zone to be auto-activated, not only must its own search evaluate to true, but those of its parent's must as well.  This would allow you to have the top-tier in your drop-down be all manual zones, so it would work just like Matt's example.  You'd also think this would be easier to parse for the auto-activation scheme because it would/could easily skip top-level sections of the tree that don't evaluate true (or are not manually enabled) right from the get go.
• Zones that have auto-triggering rules enabled can't be manually enabled via the Zone changing mechanism.  So, if you use the Player > Zones dropdown menu, or the toolbar button, or whatever to change zones manually, they don't even show up, since you can't pick them there anyway.  Or maybe they show up if something is currently playing, but they're disabled (can't be enabled/chosen) and they show an indicator to highlight the currently active zone.
• Zones-within-zones are always mutually exclusive (and if you want to, add an option to link their volume levels too).  If the user wants Zones that can play simultaneously, they need to be top-level zones (which is what would make the most sense organizationally anyway).
• Zones are evaluated from top to bottom in the "list" (like Firewall rules, it finds the first match, activates it, and stops evaluating).  That way if two auto-activating zones have filters that conflict/match, you can situate the "less specific one" below the "more specific one" (Classical vs all other Music), and it'll work right.
  

I imagine most people would just construct a very simple chain like this:

[Living Room] - manual
     [Music] - auto
     [Video] - auto
[Kitchen] - manual

Or even simpler, just add two auto-activating zones:

[Music] - auto
[Video] - auto

That's the biggest reason why I think this way is better.  It seems more complex at first blush, but really it isn't.  First of all, it matches the current, long-standing behavior of Views in the application.  It re-uses the "common theme", and that's helpful for people learning how to use the application (concepts transfer).  But, more importantly, for most users, actually configuring it would be simpler too.

For a guy who doesn't have multiple "physical zones" (ie Kitchen vs Porch vs Living Room) served by their PC, but does want to use their shiny DAC (amps, speakers, wooden knobs, etc) for music and their HDMI to the TV/AVR for the video; then he doesn't need to worry about grouping and hierarchy and all of that.  Just make two zones, one for Music and one for Video, set them to auto-activate, done.  Likewise, for the guy who has some manual zones already configured and they're happy with what they've got now?  Then they can just ignore the change too.  Zones are zones, and if they have no "rules" they work just like they always did.  Otherwise, with your original proposition, one of those two guys is going to have to make "placeholder zones/zone groups" that they don't really want or care about.  That's irrational, so you'd have to have some sort of weird exception, and you go down a rabbit hole.

And, lastly, for the totally awesome guy who does have a set of Porch speakers they drive with their onboard Realtek (you weren't otherwise using), an extra TV in the kitchen with HDMI or component run to it (and two ceiling-mounted speakers), and then the "real" home theater setup where the PC that drives it lives (which has a nice DAC and a mutichannel home theater setup) can still do this:

[Living Room]
     [Classical] - auto
     [Cinema] - auto
     [TV Watching] - auto
     [Music] - auto
[Kitchen]
     [Music] - auto
     [Video] - auto
[Porch]

And the same dude with way too much free time on his hands, and/or OCD could do this:

[Living Room] - manual
     [Music] - auto
          [Classical] - auto
          [Rock] - auto
          [Electronica] - auto
          [Podcast and Audiobook] - auto
     [TV Watching] - auto
          [Daytime] - auto based on time of day
          [Nighttime] - auto based on time of day
     [Cinema] - auto
          [Daytime] - auto based on time of day
               [Anime] - auto
               [Foreign] - auto
               [Furry Porn] - auto
               [Gorilla Documentaries] - auto
          [Nighttime] - auto based on time of day
               [Furry Porn] - auto
[Kitchen]
     [Music] - auto
     [Video] - auto
[Porch]

(I like how it was important to consider the furry porn in the Daytime too.)

Though, if this might be too much... You don't need to care about that last guy.  My core "rules" above didn't specify anything about the allowed depth of the zone-chain.  I can see some normal people maybe wanting three tiers, occasionally (I'm thinking, Living Room > Midnight Mode/Evening/Not-Ruined > Auto-activating zones here).  But, you know how we can be.    In any case, if you want to or need to limit it to two tiers to keep people from getting in over their heads (and keep complexity/performance concerns in check), I'm fine with that.*

Of course, you'll certainly need an options panel of some kind to configure the "zone tree".  And, you'll need a new way to configure the settings for zones.  Right now you just switch zones and then configure MC manually.  But, with any auto-triggering scheme, there won't be a way to "switch to it" and then configure it, other than by playing something.  I suppose you could just say play a matching track/file, pause, and then configure the zone.  That would work, but it seems kinda clunky.  Both of these issues seem like they'd apply equally to your original idea anyway, though, Matt, so that's no different.

EDIT: An alternative to the "force user to activate and then configure" method would be to just add a Zone Selection combo-box to the top of the Options panel.  When you first open Options, it is set to All Zones and has the regular options UI.  But when you switch it to a specific zone from your "tree" then the Options dialog hides all of the options not zone-specific.  This seems like the smarter way to do it.

* If you don't feel you have to limit it, then I wouldn't (because you know you'll get a rash of crap about it), but if you do... I guess all I'm saying is: I won't be one of the monkeys flinging poo if you can only go two "levels" deep.

[jgreen]

YESSSS!!!!!

[mojave]

The zone system should work just like the Windows folder system and its security system with the nest/unnest capability of views in Theater View. Folders have a parent/child relationship. Child folders (zones) should have an option that is the default and says "Include inheritable options from the parent zone." This way changing options in the top level folder (parent zone or group) changes the same options in the child folders (zones). We could also just use UNC essentially to name the zones if it is needed for criteria.

I just realized (based on Jmone's post) that I could maybe also use zones for automatic aspect ratio control:

Living Room
     Video
          1.78
          1.85
          2.39

I would base the criteria on the image height tag. I wouldn't want to change resolutions because I want to shift aspect ratios other than 1.78 down on my projector screen. I would want the OSD to stay within the video area which I don't think is now possible. Since there isn't a way to set vertical shift globally, maybe this won't work. How would I tell each zone what vertical shift setting to use?

[jmone]

I really hope this project results in the ability to select what Audio Stream to use for each Zone.  I was listening to some Music Videos Particles from the same album and the switching between tracks with 5.1 Playback Info to 2.0 (and vice versa) was jarring...

[Matt]

Thanks for all the feedback so far.  I'm still trying to figure this one out.

What about creation of a 'Zone Router' tool that simply defines rules for routing playback to certain zones?

For example, it might look like a stack of rules like:

If playing to any of these zones: [Zone A, Zone B, Zone C], direct playback using these rules:
Rules:
   [Genre]=[Classical] -> Zone A
   [Media Type]=[Video] -> Zone B

If no rules above match, use:
   Zone C


In other words, it adds nothing new other than a dialog.  When playback was started at a zone, it'd check the list of rules and decide if it should handle playback or if it should redirect it to a different zone.  If it redirects, it would toggle the active zone and stop playback in the other zones.

I like this because it's easy to implement for us and avoids the complexity of parent / child relationships and/or a new type of zones for users.

Thoughts?

[Matt]

One problem with the approach I listed above is that it doesn't hide child zones from Gizmo and other areas that should be simple.

So Gizmo would ask: "Where do you want to play: Zone A, Zone B, Zone C".  But picking any of the three would do the same thing.  And Gizmo wouldn't understand that playing to Zone A might really end up in Zone B (which it would need to know to display the right thing).

[Matt]

Another thought is that Zone Links, which already define a parent / child relationship, handle the user interaction, etc., could be expanded to support two modes.  So when you link zones it would ask:

[ x ] Link zones and play the same content in all the zones at once.

[  ] Link zones and play to only one zone at a time, using the rules below.
      [Link rules]

[MrC]

What do you think about expression rules and fields for views and view groups?

For example, an expression for the Audio view might indicate that default playback goes to the default zone, Classical goes to zone 2, high bitrate goes to zone 3.  File playback would use the first found non-empty value (file, view, parent view, ...) using a file/view field such as [Zone Playback Rule].  Top-level view groups would default to the default zone when empty.  Such rules would allow users to define where audio, cover art, video, and text files should be routed.

This would also support auto-import rules to allow overrides on import per file-type.

[Matt]

What do you think about expression rules and fields for views and view groups?

I don't really want to hook it to views, because there are so many ways to browse and play (library, Gizmo, DLNA controller, Play Doctor, etc.).

So I think it should be part of playback and zones, not part of library and views.

Mentioning Play Doctor just made me realize another wrinkle.  When you play a playlist that has files that will target different zones, it's going to get complicated as it hops between zones within the same playlist.

[jmone]

To take a step back for a second, we have an ecosystems where there is currently defined:
- One Library
- Multiple Media / Media Sub Types
- Multiple Playback Devices (Library Server Clients, Gizmo, DLNA) all with their own output specifications
- and potentially Multiple Zones on each device

What is missing is:
- How to optionally assign multiple playback specs of a zone for each of the playback devices
- How to assign by Media / Media Subtype what zone to use for broad group
- How to link "playback info" of a single item to a zone the above pair

Give the combination you almost want a "Grid" with Zones on one axis and Devices on another and to either turn on or config you interaction between the two you would click on the intersecting square that then brings up all the config options for DSP etc.

[jmone]

Here is what I was thinking (see pic but as you can see I'm no GUI guru):

The idea in the table is the Col are determined by what devices Zones MC sees.  Each row then is a Zone Rule that you can click on to configure and then apply an order of priority, or add a new zone rule that you name and configure as suits your setup.    This way you could have a Zone Rule for say downmixing all Audio to 2.0 then apply it to Gizmo, or the PS3 or the Outside Zone etc etc.

[jgreen]

Each instance of Playing Now is a Zone.  It is either the same zone or a different zone.  There is a default zone when you start the program (same zone), as there is now.  If you want a new zone that does something different, you would configure it in a dialogue box (studio).

What is "new" about Zone Groups is that now a different zone "can" configure EVERYTHING differently, without affecting another zone.  However, the default playback scheme within MC is not broken, so the new playback scheme (ZG) should look like it when a user clicks "play", unless the user has already configured new zones and wants to choose one of them.

IMO, the very crucial thing that MUST stay true with Zone Groups is that clicking "Play" starts something playing.  If a user needs to preconfigure ANYTHING in order to play something, then we've wandered off the path.  ZG should empower advanced users, not disenfranchise new ones.     

[Matt]

I'm back with another proposal.  This one has been white-board approved.

The basic idea is that you'll be able to save and load zone settings.  And you'll also be able to set rules to automatically load zone settings based on what is being played.

The saved zone settings could be all the settings or could be settings for only one specific thing like the Equalizer.  This will allow, for example, using different equalizer settings for different genres without the need to create and configure a lot of zones.

The ability to save and load settings should also make it easy to create a test zone using a copy of an existing zone's settings.

The first step to building this will be migrating the zone settings in the registry.

Then we'll need to make the program handle hot-changes of settings a bit better.

Finally, we'll add a user interface to allow loading setting presets based on what is playing.

Thoughts?

[jmone]

The basic idea is that you'll be able to save and load zone settings.  And you'll also be able to set rules to automatically load zone settings based on what is being played.

Sounds like it will work.  The key bit will be how the Rules are stored and "automatically" loaded.  Eg at some point I'd like to store the rule in the Playback Info Field so during playback on my HTPC it can grab the default 5.1ch Track and on the PC the secondary 2CH stream.

[Matt]

Eg at some point I'd like to store the rule in the Playback Info Field so during playback on my HTPC it can grab the default 5.1ch Track and on the PC the secondary 2CH stream.

This scheme will allow saying 'always play this file with these setting' or 'always play this genre with these settings'.

But Playback Info is file specific, not zone specific.  In other words, it's not stored per-file-per-zone.

So you might be in v19 land already

[Matt]

I made a little progress on this today.

Zone-specific settings will be migrated to a settings folder for the zone.  Currently zone settings are scattered around and just stored with a zone identified after the name.  While both approaches are fine, it's hard to save and load the settings without getting them all into the same parent folder.

Next, there's a save user interface.  Here's a first-cut:


Next, we'll need a user interface to load settings or configure automatic rule-based loading.

Finally, we'll have to improve support for hot-swapping of options.

[mojave]

But Playback Info is file specific, not zone specific.  In other words, it's not stored per-file-per-zone.

It would be cool if you added a Playback Settings DSP to the zone settings maybe as a virtual tag for the playback info tag. I noticed that the tag is blank until you actually make a change to the video. If we could specify Playback Settings in a DSP, then the tag settings could be used first, but if blank use the the DSP settings.

This would allow us to have complete control over various aspect ratios, soundtracks, subtitles, etc. (if there is an etc. ).

[jmone]

All we would need to make stuff specific by file is to support Zone setting on a per file basis is allow the "Playback Info" field to be "Zone" aware, eg

[ZONE(HTPC:MusicVideo)(1:1)(7:Streams)(3:0,2)] [ZONE(MAINPC:MusicVideo)(1:1)(7:Streams)(3:0,1)]

[mojave]

I made a little progress on this today.

Any further progress? I'm organizing the Omaha Home Theater Tour on October 27. My house is one of the 5 stops. I'll have about an 1 hour and 15 minutes to demo my system. I have what I want to do fairly well laid out. One of the things is to play a few of the same track portions using various subwoofers, crossovers, and high pass filters. I want the listeners' opinions without them knowing the settings. I can manually switch zones, but it would be easier with automatic zone switching.

[Matt]

Any further progress?

1 of 3 legs are finished:
1) Move settings for easier save / load
2) Support hot-swap of settings from #1
3) Build UI to create rules for #2

Sorry, but I don't think #2 and #3 will be ready for your show.

[mojave]

Thanks for the update.

[Matt]

I'm reconsidering the proposal above.

I think it's too prone to user error.  You must configure, save, and finally set up load rules.  The three steps are too separated.  And it hides settings (there are already too many) in .ini files so it won't be obvious what's wrong if playback is failing.

So I'm leaning towards a more simple "Zone Switcher" that just directs playback to specific zones based on rules.

[mojave]

Since a zone can already contain output info, it makes sense to keep it simple and not have the parent/child relationship. I do think we need to be able to copy zones or make zone templates.

[datdude]

Truly amazing! Works flawlessly.

I have a Denon receiver which cuts out audio when played oved HDMI and the TV is powered on or off (due to well known HDMI sync issues). Now I can route music through SPDIF, and video through HDMI to playback HD movie tracks. Now the audio never cuts out.

Thanks!


EDIT:

I take that back, there appears to be one 'flaw'. When playing a music track and then playing a movie, the music only pauses rather than stop, and automatically resumes playing the music again when the movie stops. The zone also doesn't switch in theater view and so I can't immediately stop the music. I think it should just stop all together and stay in the current zone of the last played file?

[jmone]

I was hoping for a feature that would give me the ability to select what Audio Stream (in a video file) to use for each Zone (eg some have a 5.1 track other a 2.0).  I don't "think" there is a way with the new system to specify a rule that says "When playing back to Zone - HTPC use the 5.1 track" and "When playing back to Zone - Office PC user the 2.0 Track" such as this suggestion: 

All we would need to make stuff specific by file is to support Zone setting on a per file basis is allow the "Playback Info" field to be "Zone" aware, eg

[ZONE(HTPC:MusicVideo)(1:1)(7:Streams)(3:0,2)] [ZONE(MAINPC:MusicVideo)(1:1)(7:Streams)(3:0,1)]

...

[Matt]

I take that back, there appears to be one 'flaw'. When playing a music track and then playing a movie, the music only pauses rather than stop, and automatically resumes playing the music again when the movie stops. The zone also doesn't switch in theater view and so I can't immediately stop the music. I think it should just stop all together and stay in the current zone of the last played file?

Double-check that you've told it to stop playback in the other zones when you configure the rule.

[datdude]

didn't change anything, other zones were already checked to stop, but now it does work.

[vagskal]

I think the Send to command (and equivalent like dropping files on a specific zone or the display info for a zone) should override the ZoneSwitcher settings. I usually play music to a DLNA zone but sometimes when tagging I want to sample a track on the Player (the PC where I am doing tagging).

[Matt]

I usually play music to a DLNA zone but sometimes when tagging I want to sample a track on the Player (the PC where I am doing tagging).

Only zones that are part of a ZoneSwitch rule set are involved.

In other words, if you setup ZoneSwitch to switch between "HDMI" and "S/PDIF" zones, it will have no impact on playng to a third, fourth, etc. zone like "My DLNA Device".

Also, you would only use ZoneSwitch if you need automatic zone routing.  If you just have a local zone and a DLNA zone, there's probably no reason.