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[Matt]

Tonight's build implements nesting for some OSD commands, similar to what was discussed here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=73400.0

Here are a couple screenshots of it in action:





Hopefully it will feel mostly natural in usage. 

But in case it helps, here is how it would work to set the Zoom:

1) Push up or down to get to the 'Window' grouping.
2) Push left, right, or enter to enter into the grouping.
3) Use left or right to select 'Zoom'.
4) Push up, down, or enter to go into the item.
5) Interact with the Zoom command like always (left / right to zoom in and out).
6) When finished either do nothing and let it go away, or push up or down to leave.

You'll notice from the instructions that you can use it without enter, but it's also fine to use enter to go into things if that's more comfortable.

[MrHaugen]

This looks great! Finally I can start using the OSD again. I always hated that you had to push the down or up buttons a thousand times to go through all the commands. I would still opt for a way to remove some of those steps though. "Color Controls" and "Window" are examples of what I never, ever use.

[fitbrit]

This looks great! Finally I can start using the OSD again. I always hated that you had to push the down or up buttons a thousand times to go through all the commands. I would still opt for a way to remove some of those steps though. "Color Controls" and "Window" are examples of what I never, ever use.

Just to agree and counteract too: I don't use color controls, but use Window controls a lot.

[raym]

Looks good Matt. I look forward to a similar implementation for video titles and streams.

Ps - I like your new alpha male avatar

[gvanbrunt]

Perhaps, window and color controls can both be under a menu item called adjustments....

[jmone]

Sorry IMO as OP it is an Epic Fail.  

Matt, Jim - please try this experiment for "fun" before replying to this post.  Run up TheaterView and give your better half or a complete MC novice the Remote Control.  

1) Put in a DVD and ask them to change the Subtitles to Italian.  Chances are the DVD Menu popped up anyway, otherwise they would have to press the "Menu" Button to access the DVD Menu.  I'm betting they will be able to comprehend the OSD presented and will do something like:
  - Will need to use the arrow keys to got to Subtitles and press Enter
  - Will need to use the arrow keys to scroll down the list of Subtitles and press Enter/OK Button
  - Chances are "Play" will now be highlighted.  Press Enter/OK Button

2) Now repeat this exercise with a BD, Video File (or even with a DVD but using the MC OSD).  As no Menu will pop up, cheat a little and tell them that pressing the "Up Arrow Key" will bring up an OSD where they can do this (don't let them press the Menu Button like with a DVD or MC will ask if you want to play a DVD).  From what I saw using the MC OSD option they will need to:
  - Press the Up Key 6 Times to get to the Streams menu,
  - Press the Right Arrow Key to select the sub menu line,
  - Press the Right Arrow Key 3 times to select Subtitles
  - Press Enter
  - Press the Right Arrow Key multiple times as MC loads each new subtitle track (display flickers).  No idea if there is even an Italian Subtitle track as you never see a list, you just change it one at a time.
  - Finally, Grow frustrated with the Wife/Kids trying to use the Remote Control to do this, pull out the keyboard and do a right click to access the Std View Menus.

Also, I have two different methods for changing Subtitles (or Streams), one that works only for DVD (and is the same on all DVD Players the world over) and another way that works with all media but is MC unique.  I have not issues if most stuff is under the MC OSD, but I'm still clamoring for a DVD Style Menu (link to the Menu button) where the novice user can look and pick Streams, Lang and Subtitles ....

[gvanbrunt]

I"m still of the opinion that 2 OSD's would be better choice. A compact one like Matt is creating, and full one that overlays on the whole screen. I don't think Matt is going to be convinced to go with a full menu only, so why not 2?

There are some things that are just better presented in  full menu, especially for novices.

[Matt]

I tested with my 5 year old and it didn't go well.

She doesn't know what a subtitle is and can't read everything fast enough before the OSD goes away.

I think a few tweaks would help a lot:
1 ) Remove header text like 'Color Controls' -- it's just more to comprehend and not needed.
2 ) Automatic selection of the first (or middle) sub-menu choice so you don't have to press left/right to start selecting.
3 ) Require enter to go into a submenu choice like 'Subtitles'.
4 ) For some submenus like 'Subtitles', show several (or all) the languages on the screen at once so you're not working through a long list one at a time.
5 ) Make the OSD wait 25% longer before going away on its own.
6 ) Possibly a better selection indicator than just bold (maybe the list selection graphic from Theater View)
7 ) Possibly a bottom line of instructions on the OSD in a slightly smaller font that describes what you should do (wouldn't help my daughter, but might help adults).
8 ) Make sure the most common commands (maybe 'Subtitles') are not nested
9 ) Make the menu button bring up the OSD.

My goal is to get something that my 5 year old can use without too much trouble or instruction, without switching to something that hides the movie, dominates the screen, or requires extra keys to use.

[imugli]

...without switching to something that hides the movie, dominates the screen, or requires extra keys to use.

Matt, while I appreciate your steadfastness and loyalty to this attitude, I'd like to add that at some point this simply becomes being "different" and not necessarily "better" or "easier"...

Sometimes an extra button IS more intuitive because it replicates other devices, making it easier for your 5 year old to grasp it without instruction.
Sometimes an overlay that takes up 1/4 or 1/3 of the screen IS OK if it provides the info / actions people are after with one click.

[jmone]

I"m still of the opinion that 2 OSD's would be better choice. A compact one like Matt is creating, and full one that overlays on the whole screen. I don't think Matt is going to be convinced to go with a full menu only, so why not 2?

There are some things that are just better presented in full menu, especially for novices.

I agree with this 100%.  I'm not arguing taking away the MC OSD, I'm arguing for the Addition of a "Menu" like you get for DVD already in MC (containing Streams, Subs, Lang, etc) but is simply missing for other Video Formats (BD, Files etc).  My logic is
1) that the UI for DVD is very very well entrenched and understood (has been around for decades) as is used by all the HW devices.
2) MC is NOT consistent in its presentation of the Menu, eg it has one for DVD but none for the others.

[jmone]

I tested with my 5 year old and it didn't go well.
.....
My goal is to get something that my 5 year old can use without too much trouble or instruction, without switching to something that hides the movie, dominates the screen, or requires extra keys to use.

Thanks for Testing!

Ease of Use:  Similar goal! for me it is to have my two teenagers and wife be able to select common stuff like Subs, Langs etc with the RC in Theaterview in a consistant form regardless of the source.  At present if it needs to be done they pull out the Keyboard (hows that for a UI fail!).  

Hide The Movie / Dominates the Screen:  Actually sometimes we do want this.  Take the Subs example, I want the movie paused till I make my selection else you miss bits of the movie esp with the current design where you have to select each one in order.

Extra Keys:  The DVD Menu uses all the same Remote Control Buttons / Keys .....so I'm not sure what the extra keys are.

Again - I'm not arguing for removing the MC OSD, but FOR the additional of a DVD Style Menu linked to the "Menu" button for Non-DVD material (and keep how it works for DVD's now)

[glynor]

My goal is to get something that my 5 year old can use without too much trouble or instruction, without switching to something that hides the movie, dominates the screen, or requires extra keys to use.

Perfect.

[Matt]

As another data point, I had my wife test.  She had never changed subtitles, but did it no problem with no instruction.

[jmone]

As another data point, I had my wife test.  She had never changed subtitles, but did it no problem with no instruction.

What did she think with the comparison to doing the same on a DVD via the DVD Menu?

[rpalmer68]

Matt, while I appreciate your steadfastness and loyalty to this attitude, I'd like to add that at some point this simply becomes being "different" and not necessarily "better" or "easier"...

Sometimes an extra button IS more intuitive because it replicates other devices, making it easier for your 5 year old to grasp it without instruction.
Sometimes an overlay that takes up 1/4 or 1/3 of the screen IS OK if it provides the info / actions people are after with one click.

I agree,

I'd much rather see a list of all my choices over the top of a movie than have to scroll through each one and try to rememebr what they all are.  While I'm wasting time scrolling through all the options I'm not watching the movie anyway so probbaly miss more than if I was presented with a full menu of options. This is especially the case for subtitles and audio streams.

Richard

[MrHaugen]

I tested with my 5 year old and it didn't go well.

She doesn't know what a subtitle is and can't read everything fast enough before the OSD goes away.

I think a few tweaks would help a lot:
1 ) Remove header text like 'Color Controls' -- it's just more to comprehend and not needed.
2 ) Automatic selection of the first (or middle) sub-menu choice so you don't have to press left/right to start selecting.
3 ) Require enter to go into a submenu choice like 'Subtitles'.
4 ) For some submenus like 'Subtitles', show several (or all) the languages on the screen at once so you're not working through a long list one at a time.
5 ) Make the OSD wait 25% longer before going away on its own.
6 ) Possibly a better selection indicator than just bold (maybe the list selection graphic from Theater View)
7 ) Possibly a bottom line of instructions on the OSD in a slightly smaller font that describes what you should do (wouldn't help my daughter, but might help adults).
8 ) Make sure the most common commands (maybe 'Subtitles') are not nested
9 ) Make the menu button bring up the OSD.

My goal is to get something that my 5 year old can use without too much trouble or instruction, without switching to something that hides the movie, dominates the screen, or requires extra keys to use.

Yes. Something have to be done. It was not intuitive to use. I think this is a good list of tweaks. I've commented in red.

1 ) Remove header text like 'Color Controls' -- it's just more to comprehend and not needed.
Indeed. Not needed in most cases. Only thing I'm wondering about is how obvious things like Subtitles vs Audio streams would be if they just show language. Perhaps just tone down the header much, or place it on the left of the selections if they are needed? I'm not sure.
2 ) Automatic selection of the first (or middle) sub-menu choice so you don't have to press left/right to start selecting.
Yes. There is no reason why a selection should not be the default. It makes people wonder where they are at. I would say make the left item the default
3 ) Require enter to go into a submenu choice like 'Subtitles'.
Yes. People are used to this. It makes it more intuitive imo.
4 ) For some submenus like 'Subtitles', show several (or all) the languages on the screen at once so you're not working through a long list one at a time.
Yes. People are used to this. It makes it more intuitive imo.
5 ) Make the OSD wait 25% longer before going away on its own.
I guess it would not hurt much.
6 ) Possibly a better selection indicator than just bold (maybe the list selection graphic from Theater View)
Yes. A select indicator would be better imo. A skin customizable graphic. Perhaps make these a option in the skin engine, or is the display view separated from Theater View? In that case, just go for Theater Views selection
7 ) Possibly a bottom line of instructions on the OSD in a slightly smaller font that describes what you should do (wouldn't help my daughter, but might help adults).
No, please. It's annoying as it is with things like the instructions every time I restart the client and pop Theater View. This should be so self explanatory that the user know within a few clicks how it behaves
8 ) Make sure the most common commands (maybe 'Subtitles') are not nested
IF you want to show all languages in subs and audio (which I think is a good idea), these can not be nested. So, yes. Unnest items with several selections like subs and audio streams. Group the rest of them
9 ) Make the menu button bring up the OSD.
I'm not so sure about this one. Menu is often used for the DVD menu if that's playing. At least on My Harmony 900 and the remote that came with my HTPC. It would break something that some users are used to.

*EDIT*
Scratch all that. I believe my suggestion below would fix most of this

[jmone]

9 ) Make the menu button bring up the OSD.
I'm not so sure about this one. Menu is often used for the DVD menu if that's playing. At least on My Harmony 900 and the remote that came with my HTPC. It would break something that some users are used to.

Uggg - Good pick-up MrH (I missed this).  This would be a backwards step IMO, as I like how the Menu Button brings up the full DVD Menu (with a DVD) and would like it to bring up something similar with BD / Media Files etc, NOT bring up the MC OSD (Up / Down Arrow is fine for this one).

[Hendrik]

Menu Button on BDs brings up the title selector, doesn't it?
At least i distinctly remember it doing that.

[jmone]

No - it brings up a Diag asking if you want to play a DVD from a Drive

[Scolex]

I find that the new OSD is different but not better, if anything I find it more confusing this is not something you should have to think about and IMHO you do.

Better would be:
Items like color, brightness, contrast, zoom, rew/fwd or any other thing that needs to be live because they are visual or aural in nature.
up/down to select category
left/right to highlight sub category ok to select sub category
right/left or up/down to change setting and ok to exit sub category (right and up are the same as are left and down)

Items that you know the effect like subtitles, audio track, etc.
up/down to select category
left/right to highlight sub category ok to select sub category
right/left or up/down to change setting and ok to apply setting which in return exits the sub category (right and up are the same as are left and down)


Ideally though I would like something similar to what is represented below.
My thought is that with the below scheme there is a visual reminder of what you need to do based on what is visible/hidden.
The flow:
On initial entry the top item of the left panel is selected, you use up/down to cycle through the items and ok or right to select that item
after ok/right the focus moves to the right panel and you use up/down to cycle and ok/right to select
if the item has an additional setting that requires the bottom panel focus moves there after ok/right
once in the bottom panel you use left/right to adjust and ok to apply/return to the right panel (some items would be a live setting due to their respective function so ok would only function as *return*)
left acts as return in any panel except the bottom panel, when in the bottom panel up/down functions continue to control the right panel.

PS: IMO the playing now info should be moved out of the standard OSD and instead be available through i/info I say that because it serves no real function and is strictly informational.

[MrHaugen]

I think we should go for the Roller behavior we have in Theater View. Most of us already know how this work.

We have the primary roller and secondary roller. The primary roller can contain Group of controls like "Color Controls", or single options like Subtitles or "Audio Selections". The selected item would always be centered, and highlighted with either a lighter/bold and capitalized text (would work with most, if not all skins) or a Theater View graphical selection. Once a item is selected, the secondary roller is populated with the options or items available. The rollers can go in loop, and would fade out on the sides if there are more items than the box width can handle. The OSD box should be transparent like in build 33. I've just used solid black for simplicity.

You can use down button or enter to go to the next roller or item down the line. Once down or enter have been selected for the bottom item, you can control the value (like saturation bar) with the left and right arrows. In cases of option values are on the second roller (like subtitles) you simply activate those when they are selected. Up or back arrow brings you back up.

I think this would be a lot more intuitive than the current behavior. It will require more hight than the OSD can with just one line, but you will have a much better overview and control imo. This could even make for a very touch friendly OSD. Swipe the finger up for the OSD, and then flick the rollers to select options, touch, select and change the different options. The value slider should also be possible to change left and right with the fingers. As the Win8 pads arrive, such things will be increasingly important.

*Edit2*
I've changed the illustration and rewritten the text to simplify.

[Hendrik]

No - it brings up a Diag asking if you want to play a DVD from a Drive

Maybe my Menu button is special. I bound my "Menu" button on my Harmony to the "DVD Menu" action in the remote control config, and it brings up the title selector.
Note that i play my Blu-rays from actual physical discs. And this was on MC17, fwiw.

I don't have it in front of me right now, but i'll confirm that thats whats happening later. :p

[jmone]

FYI - I tested by pulling out a Genuine MS Remote and the DVD Button brings up the Menu when a DVD is playing but on a BD it brings up a MC Diag asking if you want to play a disc from the drive.

[imugli]

This got me thinking of different ways of dealing with this. As we're used to rollers for the views, why not take advantage of this and make something similar?

In this example, the OSD items are centered as they are selected. The items go in loop if they go outside the OSD box. I just made a black background for simplicity, but it should be a box and it should be transparent instead of occupying the whole width and being solid black as in this illustration. In the illustration, I've made the selected text brighter. I think this is the best, as it works with most skins. But a Theater View selection effect graphic could also be possible.

Down or up button activates the OSD, the first item is selected. You select categories and options with right and left, and you immediately see the sub options. Or in the case it's no sub selections, but just option values like subtitles, the second roller will represent the actual languages instead. Pushing down button or enter activates the sub option or item on the second roller, another down button or enter selects the secondary roller item. Left and right changes the option value (Saturation in the illustration). Up goes and back goes up a level.

I think this would be a lot more intuitive than the current behavior. It will require more hight than the OSD can with just one line, but you will have a much better overview and control imo. This could even make for a very touch friendly OSD. Swipe the finger up for the OSD, and then flick the rollers to select options, touch, select and change the different options. The value slider should also be possible to change left and right with the fingers. As the Win8 pads arrive, such things will be increasingly important.

Illustration added as attachment

*Edit* The selection should disappear from the "Color Controls" once you go to the second roller. I'm to lazy to fix it

I could live with this...

[jmone]

There seem to be two different requirements going:

1) MC's OSD (via Up/Down Arrow during Playback) - I'll bow to others on this and how it should work though it seems to already cover all the possible playback options known to man
2) "DVD" Style OSD (via the Menu Button) - this is the one I really want to replicate how it currently works in MC for DVD's but expanded to other Video Sources (both BD and Files) that just shows a full screen OSD that pauses playback and lets you see, access and select --> Titles, Subtitles, Lang / Streams.

[MrHaugen]

I don't see the reason to pause a video and fill the screen with a menu when you can do the same with pause and a smaller OSD. Personally I see nothing but disadvantages with this, but that might be just me.

[jmone]

MrH - I don't disagree and that is what the MC OSD gives now for all Video types (DVD, BD, and Files).  I'm banging on about adding a consistent UI experience for my family like we have now for DVD's but not for BD or Video Files when you press the Menu button, it is just a matter of preference then which style of control you prefer.  For my Family it is the DVD not the MC style UI and each to their own.

[MrHaugen]

I can see that. For some it would be logical. It's just that DVD and physical BluRay is such a rarity for me, that it goes the other way. With the amount of downloading and streaming and less physical medias every day, I do think that most people can deal with non full screen menus. It's a thing that's slowly fading away. I would go as far as asking for a way to just use the current OSD for DVD menu options as well But that is just me.

[jmone]

You can use the current OSD for DVD (I think but I've only got a couple).  FYI, I have hundreds of BD and buy them all the time... and only a few downloads so I must be "old fashioned" but if you want top quality there is little choice.  Who wants a crap 1GB rip?  But again, each to their own.

[gvanbrunt]

3 ) Require enter to go into a submenu choice like 'Subtitles'.

I think having to hit enter to select some things but not all is counter-intuitive. I guess it is ok as long as you "can" select enter to select things instead of up and down.

Also your point about adding some instruction texts really illustrates a fault in the design. In a regular menu system you never see instructions - they are not needed. If you have to resort to that, there are bigger issues.

[JustinChase]

Are we just trying too hard to be different?  I've never really seen anyone struggle to navigate a menu on a DVD player.  I suspect this is because companies like Sony and Toshiba and others have spent a fair bit of time and money to find the "best" method of handling this.  Trying to be different seems doomed to fail.  It different was better/easier, that way would be the normal way it's currently done, because they would have already figured that out.

I personally agree that hitting a menu button should bring up a full menu, like for DVD, on any video source.  DVD is just a VCR, but better.  BluRay is just a DVD, but better.  Other video is just a DVD, but different.  They all need the same controls, so making the control consistent just seems like a no-brainer.

Matt, if you have a stand alone DVD or BluRay player, maybe you can have your Daughter use that menu and see how she does.  It might shed some light on what's good and what's difficult.

I seem to remember your street being somewhat busy.  Maybe you should take a TV outside and ask random people to try the menu ideas you have, and see what they think?  Feedback from people totally unfamiliar with MC would be valuable for determining what the 'average' person can manage/thinks.

[Hendrik]

FYI - I tested by pulling out a Genuine MS Remote and the DVD Button brings up the Menu when a DVD is playing but on a BD it brings up a MC Diag asking if you want to play a disc from the drive.

I just confirmed that my "Menu" button on the Harmony that i bound to the "DVD Menu" option in the Remote Commands screen does bring up the title selection dialog.
I don't care what anyone elses remote does tbh 

[mojave]

This Dilbert cartoon seems appropriate for this thread. 

[mojave]

Is there a shortcut key that accesses the "menu button" that jmone and nevcairiel are referencing? I just put a DVD in and I'm trying to see the "DVD Style OSD" menu by using my keyboard.

[jmone]

Full list of MS Media Keyboard Shortcuts are here --> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-IL/windows-vista/Windows-Media-Center-keyboard-shortcuts

Go to the DVD menu --> CTRL+SHIFT+M

OR Just right Click on the Playing Now Window and select DVD Menu (or in most cases it should just pop up when you put a DVD In)
 

[mojave]

That does nothing for me in JRiver with a DVD playing. I can right click in JRiver to get to the DVD menu. I thought you were talking about a JRiver OSD that is different for DVD. If so, can you put up a screenshot?

[jmone]

I just confirmed that my "Menu" button on the Harmony that i bound to the "DVD Menu" option in the Remote Commands screen does bring up the title selection dialog.
I don't care what anyone elses remote does tbh 

Mmmmmm now you have me intrigued....  I'll have to see what I've bound to my Harmony's Menu button....  It's Menu botton was performing a "back to MC Menu roller", which is why I pulled out the original MS remote to see what the DVD Menu button did.

[jmone]

That does nothing for me in JRiver with a DVD playing. I can right click in JRiver to get to the DVD menu. I thought you were talking about a JRiver OSD that is different for DVD. If so, can you put up a screenshot?

Just tested and that short cut does not work for me either  ?  EDIT:  THis is no doubt that the keyboard shortcuts I posted a link to are for Windows Media Center Application NOT for the MS RC itself ... I don't think there is a way send a RC code from a key press combo.

On the OSD's
- Existing JRiver Style OSD (the bottom non intrusive roller style one with all playback options): Works for all Video Types (DVD, BD, Video Files etc)
- DVD Style OSD (fulls screen for accessing Subs, Streams, Titles etc):  Only currently works for DVD

[Matt]

I'm not sure if I'm disappointed or relieved that nobody has said anything about the changes in build 34.

My goal was to get jmone to call it a FAIL instead of an EPIC FAIL.

[glynor]

I'm not sure if I'm disappointed or relieved that nobody has said anything about the changes in build 34.

My goal was to get jmone to call it a FAIL instead of an EPIC FAIL.

I'm still chicken.

Actually, not chicken.  Just busy prepping for a week at the beach in NC... Finally the summer nightmare-hell-ride is coming to a close.  After the trip, I'll dig into this rotten MC18 stuff.

[jmone]

I'm not sure if I'm disappointed or relieved that nobody has said anything about the changes in build 34.

Calm before the storm?  For me it is a very good improvement on the MC OSD and I find it much easier to navigate and select the features I want with much less keying errors.  Well done.

My goal was to get jmone to call it a FAIL instead of an EPIC FAIL.

Still an Epic Fail!  ...and not because the changes are not good, they are just not what I want.  

I love this cartoon.  I'm very aware that as the "customer" (OP) you have to explain it well, and I think I've done this over and over.....
- .... all I want is a Tyre Swing (a DVD Style full OSD that works for BD and Video Files as it does now for DVDs).  
- .... Matt's worked on a bunch of changes on the Bench Swing (MC's OSD) making it better
- .... while that's nice ... I'm not asking for a new an improved Bench Swing (the MC OSD) ... I want a Tyre Swing (DVD Style OSD).

Thanks
Nathan

PS - The great thing about JR is that you don't suffer from the issues in many of these other boxes (like installation, billing, and support).

[jmone]

Ok - I'll have one more crack at explaining the Tyre Swing I want (and the others we already have in MC).  We actually already have 3 Swings / Menus options supported by MC (see the table pic).
* Swing One: PC List Style (the right click one): works with all video sources + give access to allow Playback Selection & Playback Settings / Controls:  All good to me, No Change
* Swing Two: MC's OSD (the one Matt has been refining): works with all video sources + give access to allow Playback Selection & Playback Settings / Controls:  Nice set of improvements but it is refining some other type of swing
* Tyre Swing: DVD DSD (the Tyre Swing I'm After): currently only works for DVD + only gives access to allow Playback Selection (no Playback Settings / Controls): I'd like to have this Already Supported Menu type expanded from DVD to all video sources (eg BD and Files).

Thanks
Nathan

[JimH]

Matt,
Remember.  This is the guy who designed the chicken coop that fed the neighborhood dingos.

Jim

[NickF]

* Tyre Swing: DVD DSD (the Tyre Swing I'm After): currently only works for DVD + only gives access to allow Playback Selection (no Playback Settings / Controls): I'd like to have this Already Supported Menu type expanded from DVD to all video sources (eg BD and Files).

I'm with you, Nathan.  I don't really understand the reluctance to do this.  It seems a no brainier.  I have nothing against the current OSD for access to other technical options but I rarely use it.  I would use a DVD type menu frequently for changing streams, selecting chapters etc.

Nick.

[jmone]

Matt,
Remember.  This is the guy who designed the chicken coop that fed the neighborhood dingos.

Jim

So True (well it was a Labrador that had pinned down one of the Chooks and was "licking" it like a lollypop - all lived to fight another day but it was touch and go for the dog!)

... but that is why in the cartoon I'm just the first and the last box on the feature requester and final acceptance, and why the "Epic Fail" comment as the two just don't match (and the reason I don't work for JR, you get to do all the "tough" stuff including design between these two points!  

[jmone]

I'm with you, Nathan.  I don't really understand the reluctance to do this.  It seems a no brainier.  I have nothing against the current OSD for access to other technical options but I rarely use it.  I would use a DVD type menu frequently for changing streams, selecting chapters etc.

Nick.

I'm sure Matt is thinking - but the "Bench Swing" we designed ourselves is waaaaaay better than that old Tyre Swing concept and you can do sooooo much more.  Over time they will come to love the Bench Swing and forget they ever wanted the Tyre Swing.  

The thing is I think each have their place, and all I want to do is (for my family) keep a consistant UI thought MC regardless of video type instead of saying, "well if the content was originally a DVD then you can use this way, else use this way".  For my family, I see that they are very comfortable using the DVD Style menu to get access to the few playback selection items they need and while it works great with DVD's this feature is just "missing" when playing a BD or Video File (and that bit creates the confusion as the MC UI is just not consistant).

[Matt]

The thing is I think each have their place, and all I want to do is (for my family) keep a consistant UI thought MC regardless of video type instead of saying, "well if the content was originally a DVD then you can use this way, else use this way".  For my family, I see that they are very comfortable using the DVD Style menu to get access to the few playback selection items they need and while it works great with DVD's this feature is just "missing" when playing a BD or Video File (and that bit creates the confusion as the MC UI is just not consistant).

If you want consistent, use the OSD for all playback types.  It always looks and works the same.  And now it's pretty easy.

Each DVD menu looks and works differently.  There's simply no analog in an MKV, JTV, etc.  We could try to make one, but it's not solving a real problem in my opinion.  And it won't look the same as a DVD menu anyway, since they all look different.

[glynor]

Matt,
Remember.  This is the guy who designed the chicken coop that fed the neighborhood dingos.

Jim

In completely unrelated news... Did you see that the Dingo really did eat the baby?

PS.  Keep that Lab away from me.  I swear, I'll install MC 18 as soon as I get back from my trip!

[jmone]

Each DVD menu looks and works differently.

I agree, but they all tend to have the same feature for Selection of Titles, subs, streams etc.  My point on consistency as not how the menu itself looked but that in MC the DVD style Menu only works for DVD not for other types.

There's simply no analog in an MKV, JTV, etc.

Sure there is, MKV can have multiple streams, chapters, subs just like like a DVD (and that are accessed by the DVD Menu) and obviously BD does.  There are plenty of content that will only have one of each (eg Home Videos) but just like the MC OSD, it would still work just not provide any usefully functionality for these bits.

We could try to make one, but it's not solving a real problem in my opinion.

Like all of my brilliant ideas, I'm sure I'm right but if I've been unable to convince you then as the devs, you can always say "We can't do it", "We can't do it now as it is a lower priority", or even "Sod Off - its a crap idea" (of course I know your wrong but at which point I'll just gracefully bow out of a loosing argument!)

[MrHaugen]

I do not understand the reason for filling up this thread with off topic issues like introducing a full screen menu for all video types. I for one, don't understand why people would want to pause their movie, break the current session with another screen, and go in and out of menus that takes a lot of time. The same things can and will be possible with the OSD, and it will be consistent, and it SHOULD be just as intuitive. If it's not, something have failed in this thread and development of the improved OSD.

When it comes to DVD and BluRay movies, there is no consistency. They are all different. So why should be try to do something similar? You want the menu structure only from these sources, and build a standard menu? In that case, ok. But I still can not understand the real need for such a thing.

Second point. This is a thread for suggestions and comments regarding the improved OSD that we have today. Not a totally new menu. Please let's comment on the OSD that is subject to change, and drop other things that would probably bring you nowhere anyway. If you want to push this idea, then start a new thread. I would rather spend the time to contribute with suggestions to make the current OSD better.