Topic: "Pop" sounds still heard between DSF tracks (Read 20925 times)

Monteverdi · « **on:** September 21, 2012, 11:24:02 am »

Hi Matt, when DSF files are played, "pop" sounds between tracks are still heard despite you have tried to fix this DoP dropout between tracks problem. I am using MC 18.0.47. Audio output: WASAPI Event style. Options/Audio/Bitstreaming/Custom/DSD DoP.

Ychng · « **Reply #1 on:** September 21, 2012, 02:22:38 pm »

Ha Monteverdi! I was logging on to post the exact same thing but you beat me to it this time.

Agreed. with the latest beta of JRMC18 the pop or click between tracks is still not fixed. Matt/Jim, can you please look into this? this was the main reason I paid for the JRMC18 license.

Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #2 on:** September 21, 2012, 02:33:19 pm »

It might take a little searching, but we'll get this figured out for v18.

Please install the latest v18, then test this output plugin (overwrite out_Main.dll in your [MC]\Plugins folder):
http://files.jriver.com/temp/out_main.zip

Is that any better?

I'm suspicious that it could lose track of the ordering of the alternating DoP markers when it played silence during a buffer shortfall (like when the next song starts).

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** September 21, 2012, 02:33:57 pm »

Also, does it pop if you play as PCM? If so, this would indicate we're reading too far in the file. If not, it's a bitstreaming (DoP) only issue.

Monteverdi · « **Reply #4 on:** September 21, 2012, 09:48:25 pm »

Matt, how to execute the subject plugin step by step?

Matt · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2012, 10:45:23 pm »

Quote from: Monteverdi on September 21, 2012, 09:48:25 pm

Matt, how to execute the subject plugin step by step?

Overwrite the out_Main.dll in your Media Center 18 installation folder with the one above (it's in [MC Install Folder]\Plugins).

Then test DoP playback.

Ychng · « **Reply #6 on:** September 22, 2012, 05:46:34 pm »

Hi Matt and Jim,

Tried the new plugin after overwriting the old main.dll and still hearing the pops exactly as before. Tried both DoP markers under bit streaming options too, didn't make a difference.

Do you guys need a sample track or two to test with?

Thanks for your attention to this issue!
Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #7 on:** September 22, 2012, 05:51:50 pm »

Thanks for testing.

And how about this:

Quote from: Matt on September 21, 2012, 02:33:57 pm

Also, does it pop if you play as PCM? If so, this would indicate we're reading too far in the file. If not, it's a bitstreaming (DoP) only issue.

Ychng · « **Reply #8 on:** September 23, 2012, 03:45:35 am »

Hi Matt,

Tested with PCM converted DSD playback by unchecking bitstream and setting the output to 24 bit/176.4 kHz - pop/click is still heard at the track switch. Sounds about the same as in DSD bitstreaming mode.

Thanks again! let me know if you need samples to test with.

Yeang

Ychng · « **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2012, 01:50:01 am »

Hi Matt,

Any ideas what could be causing the pop between tracks if it happens with the new plugin as well as with both DSD bitstreaming and PCM converted playback?

Thanks,
Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2012, 10:16:16 am »

It sounds like it's happening in decoding, so is related to certain files and not bitstreaming.

Could you provide a DSF file that pops when playing it in a loop? None of my files do this, but if I have a file that does, hopefully it will be an easy fix.

Thanks.

Ychng · « **Reply #11 on:** September 27, 2012, 05:43:35 am »

Hi Matt,

You had sent me your email before - can you do it again please, for the purposes of my sending you a couple of sample DSF files.

Yeang

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2012, 06:17:30 am »

He's matt at jriver.

Ychng · « **Reply #13 on:** October 04, 2012, 07:39:16 am »

Hi Jim and Matt,

Just sent a sample file to see if you can reproduce the click/pop phenomenon and test it yourselves. If that small file doesn't work I'll set up a dropbox and see if i can get you two consecutive tracks which are supposed to have continuous music, which would be a better way to hear the pop/click since there is no discontinuity like you will be getting by running this small file on loop.

Thanks a lot; Matt, let me know if you received the DSF file.

Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2012, 09:04:10 am »

Thanks for the sample.

When I play the test clip on a loop, either bitstreaming (both ASIO and DoP) or PCM, there's no pop at the transition. I'm testing with a Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC.

I'm wondering if you're actually hearing a hardware pop from your DAC when the device enters or leaves DSD mode?

Ychng · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2012, 09:07:30 am »

Interesting. Let me revisit that particular file on loop with the Meitner. I also have the Mytek which is not attached right now, but I can get it back in the system and see.

I'll also try to set up a dropbox with two consecutive files with a clearer interruption in the supposedly continuous flow of music between the tracks.

Yeang

Ychng · « **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2012, 07:47:28 am »

Hi Matt!

I sent you an invite to a shared dropbox with two consecutive files in it, that has a more noticeable discontinuity with pop/click between the two tracks. They should be played in sequence.

Thanks!
Yeang

Matt · « **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2012, 12:27:26 pm »

Thanks for the files.

I hear a slight tick between the tracks.

Looking at our code, it seems like we're reading the correct amount of audio data from the files. So I'm wondering if the DSF files themselves might just have a little gap?

I played them with Foobar (PCM) and heard a similar tick.

Thoughts?

Ychng · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2012, 01:33:00 pm »

Thanks for testing, Matt. These files were ripped using the sacd_ripper and PS3 from my SACD copy of Die Walkure, which is for most people the main source of DSF files right now. Perhaps the problem is with the sacd_ripper code. I will test with downloaded files from Channel Classics to see if it persists; I don't have anything that is supposed to play straight through without a break from them so far.

Is there any chance that some form of crossfade can be implemented for bitstreaming DSD, which would be an indirect way of getting around this problem?
Others have reported success getting around this by playing back in PCM and using crossfade. Unfortunately this does not work in DSD mode.

Thanks again for your help!
Yeang

Monteverdi · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2012, 08:23:49 pm »

Matt, I played files downloaded from 2L website and Channel Classics. I experienced not only slight tick but loud "pop" sounds between tracks. No clue as to whether this is a software problem or a problem with Mytek. Would like to send you these two albums if you would like to test them. Thanks for looking into this matter.

Ychng · « **Reply #20 on:** October 06, 2012, 09:10:36 am »

Monteverdi,

thanks for the additional info - you tested with the Mytek right? Do you have the Meitner MA-1 also? Sounds like if you get it with Channel Classics and 2L DSD downloads it's not just a PS3 ripping issue, it's with all DSD files, so still a big problem.

Thanks!
Yeang

Monteverdi · « **Reply #21 on:** October 07, 2012, 08:58:40 pm »

I don't own Meitner. The "pop" sounds are heard in both dff and dsf formats.

Matt · « **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:19:16 am »

It would be good if you guys tested with 18.0.55.

These changes might make a difference for what you were seeing:

18.0.53 (10/1/2012)

Faster: Improved the performance when bitstreaming DSD.
Fixed: When bitstreaming DSD using ASIO, the end of a track could stutter.

Monteverdi · « **Reply #23 on:** October 10, 2012, 07:22:39 am »

Hi Matt, I've tested the dsf files with 18.0.55. Audio output: WASAPI Event style. The "pop" sounds are still there between tracks. I better send you the two albums in USB thumb by DHL if you don't mind. Please send me your mailing address to my email account.

Matt · « **Reply #24 on:** October 10, 2012, 10:42:29 am »

Quote from: Monteverdi on October 10, 2012, 07:22:39 am

Hi Matt, I've tested the dsf files with 18.0.55. Audio output: WASAPI Event style. The "pop" sounds are still there between tracks. I better send you the two albums in USB thumb by DHL if you don't mind. Please send me your mailing address to my email account.

Thanks for the offer.

You can send things here:
http://jriver.com/company.html

Just mark it c/o Matt Ashland.

Conversely, if you upload two back-to-back tracks, it would be enough to test. At this point, my theory is that some DSD files themselves simply aren't gapless.

Ychng · « **Reply #25 on:** October 10, 2012, 03:58:12 pm »

Hi Matt,

I have the same results as Monteverdi testing with the tracks I sent you, on the Meitner MA-1. In fact, the pops seems actually more prominent with this update! I'm excited about improved performance, but the increased "pops" are annoying. This was a really brief test as I didn't have a ton of time, will listen more this weekend.

Matt - I uploaded another track to the Dropbox shared folder that goes after the last track I sent you. It's great for testing as the music goes quieter at the track transition, making the pop more obvious.

Thanks!
Yeang

Monteverdi · « **Reply #26 on:** October 10, 2012, 09:29:33 pm »

Hi Matt,

The USB thumb stick has just been sent over to you by FedEx. Please keep it after testing. Thanks again for your attention to this matter.

Matt · « **Reply #27 on:** October 12, 2012, 11:25:47 am »

Quote from: Monteverdi on October 10, 2012, 09:29:33 pm

The USB thumb stick has just been sent over to you by FedEx. Please keep it after testing. Thanks again for your attention to this matter.

Thanks for the files.

There's certainly a loud pop between tracks. The DAC isn't falling out of DSD mode, so I don't believe it's a bitstreaming or buffer shortfall issue.

I'm going to spend some time looking at the files, and I'll post when I know more.

(ps. when I heard a package arrived for me from the 'Securities & Futures Commission', I was worried I might be going to jail!)

Matt · « **Reply #28 on:** October 12, 2012, 12:06:28 pm »

I understand what is happening, which is a good first step.

DSF files are organized around 'channel clusters'. This means the layout is like this repeated:
[4096 bytes for left channel][4096 bytes for right channel]

The length of a file will always be a multiple of the size of these clusters.

But when the file ends, the tails of these clusters get set to all zeroes resulting in a loud pop.

I'm still thinking about how to work around this, but I think just working backwards on the last channel cluster and not considering the zero portions to be part of the file would fix it.

Matt · « **Reply #29 on:** October 12, 2012, 02:01:56 pm »

Next build:
Fixed: DSF files that zeroed part of the last channel cluster could cause an audible pop between tracks.

Matt · « **Reply #30 on:** October 12, 2012, 03:30:37 pm »

The change mentioned above is in today's build:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=75005.0

Ychng · « **Reply #31 on:** October 12, 2012, 06:58:41 pm »

Matt,

Thanks so much for your diligence in pursuing this issue! Have yet to test it (working tonight) but will do so tomorrow. Again reminds me why MC is such an amazing product with you guys behind it!

Did you find the same zeros at the ends of the files I sent you, too?

Yeang

Monteverdi · « **Reply #32 on:** October 12, 2012, 07:55:00 pm »

Hi Matt, you've got a vibrant sense of humour. Thanks for your quick and hard work.

First observation: "pop" sounds between tracks eliminated at speaker level but I could still hear very tiny "click" sounds when ear phone was used. These "click" sounds do not appear in every track change. Second observation: short series of "pop" sounds heard at the beginning of both albums before music is played. Grateful if you could spend some more of your vauable time on these matters. The latest MC build is certainly a great step to start in dealing with problems associated with DSF files.

Thanks again for your effort.

Monteverdi · « **Reply #33 on:** October 12, 2012, 09:55:28 pm »

Hi Matt,

I've just tested the files in both albums again. I can now confirm that:

(1) The tiny "click" happens in every track change, but need to turn up the volume up to detect it. I suspect this is a noise created by "gap" between tracks. If my suspicion is valid then the tiny "click" may suggest that the track change is not completetly seamless or gapless.

(2) The loud "pop" sounds heard at the beginning of the albums are assoicated with "buffering".

Grateful if you could look into these issues again. Thank you.

tourix · « **Reply #34 on:** October 14, 2012, 10:14:17 pm »

Hello Matt,

I can confirm that the clicks between tracks still exist with 18.0.59 playing DSD to a Meitner MA-1. Interestingly, they are audible between each track even when playing an SACD iso file, not just contiguous dsf track files. My understanding was that the DSD bitstream of an SACD whole-disc rip should not be aware of track changes (no clicks are heard when playing on an SACD player), but I may be wrong. This would indicate that MC18 alters the bitstream in some way at the location of track changes.

While we are on the subject of DSD support, it would be awesome to have these features:
1) Volume control for DSD bitstream (in DSD domain, without PCM conversion)
2) Handheld audio conversion from DSD to PCM (see http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71513.0)

Thanks again for a great product!

Cheers!

905400857 · « **Reply #35 on:** October 14, 2012, 11:53:45 pm »

Quote from: Matt on October 09, 2012, 09:19:16 am

It would be good if you guys tested with 18.0.55.

These changes might make a difference for what you were seeing:

18.0.53 (10/1/2012)

Faster: Improved the performance when bitstreaming DSD.
Fixed: When bitstreaming DSD using ASIO, the end of a track could stutter.

Ychng · « **Reply #36 on:** October 15, 2012, 08:06:13 am »

Hi guys,

I can also confirm that the pops/clicks between tracks, although significantly decreased from the previous build, are still present in build 59. This is with DSF files ripped from SACD via the PS3 method, through a Meitner MA-1 also.

Thanks for working on this, Matt!

Yeang

Ychng · « **Reply #37 on:** October 19, 2012, 11:44:53 am »

Hi Matt,

Have you had time to troubleshoot this issue further? Did more listening yesterday night; pops were again evident at track transitions, which are pretty disruptive in supposedly seamless opera tracks.

On the bright side, dsd playback is gaining more exposure in the media from the RMAF reports!

Any thoughts about implementing a dsd bitstream cross fade like the PCM side? That would probably eliminate the pops.

Matt · « **Reply #38 on:** October 19, 2012, 06:30:32 pm »

Quote from: Ychng on October 19, 2012, 11:44:53 am

Have you had time to troubleshoot this issue further?

No. It's been a crazy week between RMAF and our OSX release of the HDtracks Downloader.

But hopefully I'll get a chance to dig a bit more next week.

Matt · « **Reply #39 on:** October 24, 2012, 03:36:05 pm »

Next build:
NEW: SACD ISO playback uses gapless mode instead of exactly honoring the track offsets in the disc table of contents (which might not be perfectly gapless).

tourix · « **Reply #40 on:** October 24, 2012, 10:49:48 pm »

That sounds very promising and like the right thing to do. I cannot wait to try this next build.

Thanks, Matt!

Any chance you will add volume control on the DSD stream in the future? I think this can be achieved without leaving the DSD domain.

Cheers!

Matt · « **Reply #41 on:** October 24, 2012, 11:16:19 pm »

Quote from: tourix on October 24, 2012, 10:49:48 pm

Any chance you will add volume control on the DSD stream in the future? I think this can be achieved without leaving the DSD domain.

Any signal processing I've seen on DSD switches to multi-bit and back, so does more harm than going to PCM once and staying there. The extreme noise shaping and quantization required to get to a one-bit signal is not something you want to do repeatedly.

John Stronczer of Bel Canto instrument tested our DSD-to-PCM output the other day and the graphs were exceptional. So if you want any signal processing, including volume, I'd recommend PCM output.

The ability to always output as DSD was discussed here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74926.0

Cask · « **Reply #42 on:** October 25, 2012, 04:15:41 am »

Apologies for intruding on this thread but I can also hear these "pop" sounds when adjusting the volume. I have it set to Internal.

Running on 18.0.55 (just checked the changelog for .59 and couldn't see a fix for it)

tourix · « **Reply #43 on:** October 25, 2012, 01:50:14 pm »

Thank you Matt for the detailed reply and pointers regarding DSD volume control.
I will not get rid of my preamp quite yet, then :-)

Cheers!

tourix · « **Reply #44 on:** October 27, 2012, 12:45:03 am »

I am sorry to report that the clicks between tracks are still audible when playing an SACD ISO with build 18.0.63 to a Meitner MA-1 (DoP 1.0, WASAPI - Event Style, Use gapless for sequential album tracks).

Cheers!

Monteverdi · « **Reply #45 on:** October 27, 2012, 04:53:42 am »

Matt, a very very very tiny "click" is still audible between tracks (becomes noticeable when volume is up) with build 63 for Mytek. I am more annoyed by the loud "pop" sounds right after the play button is pressed.

Matt · « **Reply #46 on:** October 27, 2012, 09:44:57 am »

Quote from: Monteverdi on October 27, 2012, 04:53:42 am

I am more annoyed by the loud "pop" sounds right after the play button is pressed.

The Mytek makes a hardware level pop when entering and exiting DSD mode. There's nothing we can do about this one (rolling silence, sleeping, etc. don't help). Mytek knows about the issue, so hopefully a firmware or driver fix can solve this one someday.

moophone · « **Reply #47 on:** October 27, 2012, 12:02:40 pm »

FYI no pops or clicks with Exasound E20. If you have any specific files you want me to test to help identify possible hardware clicks let me know and I'll help out

sla · « **Reply #48 on:** February 05, 2013, 05:08:41 am »

Sorry for digging it out but has this problem been fixed?

firedog · « **Reply #49 on:** February 05, 2013, 01:42:20 pm »

yes, I experience the pop on some albums but not others. Why is this?

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Author Topic: "Pop" sounds still heard between DSF tracks (Read 20925 times)