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[jmone]

We currently have Std, Mini, Display, Theater, and Cover View when running MC but on Windows 8 Touch Screen devices we don't have any that work with "Gestures" (such as a swipe) like Gizmo does on the Android.  Theaterview is closest but it more a "point and click".  Any thoughts on adding a new Touch View?
Thanks
Nathan

[Hendrik]

Sounds like Theater View should just react to swipes when its running on a touch screen (Windows tells you such things if you ask nicely)

Thinking about Theater View, only swipe actions it really needs is up/down for scrolling, and left to right for "back", not sure if right to left could be anything useful.

[gvanbrunt]

Thinking about Theater View, only swipe actions it really needs is up/down for scrolling, and left to right for "back", not sure if right to left could be anything useful.

Running Touchscreen Obsidian swipes work to scroll up and down. At least it did for me last time I tested. Is this broken?

[Hendrik]

I didn't actually try, i was just thinking out loud.

[MrHaugen]

Improving Theater View would be the best imo. It's going to be a lot more touch devices out there the coming months and years. I've not had a touch screen to test my self, but I think there is room for improvement. I'm sure I'll make a comment when I purchase my first Win8 tablet. Just waiting for the right hardware that have a powerful enough GPU for theater view to work well.

[Hendrik]

Keep in mind that you'll need a x86 tablet, like the "Surface Pro", which runs a real Windows 8, and not Windows RT. As of today, there is no such tablet actually available on shelves yet to my knowledge.

[MrHaugen]

I know.

[jmone]

I've got the new "real" W8 Samsung Tablet / Ultrabook hybrid - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=75784.0

[gvanbrunt]

Keep in mind that you'll need a x86 tablet, like the "Surface Pro", which runs a real Windows 8, and not Windows RT. As of today, there is no such tablet actually available on shelves yet to my knowledge.

Not sure if they are available anymore but the tablets given away at the developers conference are basically the Surface Pro minus the keyboard. They are the 700T and I've had one for about a year. It runs Theater View smoother than both my HTPC and 3 year old main computer. Very nice tablet. My only complaint... needs a detachable keyboard.

Surface Pro is going to be awesome. I won't be needing a laptop anymore.

[jmone]

Running Touchscreen Obsidian swipes work to scroll up and down. At least it did for me last time I tested. Is this broken?

Your right in Touchscreen Obsidian you can swipe up and down for scrolling.  It is all still kinda awkward compared to the finger friendly Gizmo IF.  Simple things like trying to press Stop/Pause etc ...

[gvanbrunt]

I'll have to play around with that some more when I have time. Offer some comments on what needs work etc. I didn't use it all that much.

[fitbrit]

IMO, the touch interface in Theater View can be improved. Here's a recent video I made of my bigger home theatre. The touchscreen is a 22" 1080p screen. The 'grab and flick' experience to scroll through movies really is quite inconsistent, which you will see a couple of times. Since I wanted MC to come off in a good light, I might have disguised these a little. Very sorry for the crappy quality of the low/inconsistent light iPhone-shot video.

It was in the early hours of the morning, so despite the room having soundproofing, the volume on the video is very low.

My HT and MC touchscreen experience

I think that MC could really benefit from multi-touch functionality. In the video you may have noticed that several intended 'flicks' to scroll through movies registered as that movie being selected. Support for flicking with two fingers would really have helped here.

[Matt]

IMO, the touch interface in Theater View can be improved.

The classic thumbnail lists or 3d wall probably work the best with touch.

The 3d flow list works less well (which is what you used in the video).  I wonder if the flow list should be changed so that the selected item is _always_ centered.  It might be a little confusing having both selected states and scroll position.

[fitbrit]

The classic thumbnail lists or 3d wall probably work the best with touch.

They are a bit better, because the speed of the flick is good for long lists. The 3D flow looks so darn cool though. (And don't forget, I've only had thumbnails again for a week so it's still quite novel for me!)

The 3d flow list works less well (which is what you used in the video).  I wonder if the flow list should be changed so that the selected item is _always_ centered.  It might be a little confusing having both selected states and scroll position.

Yes, this _did_ confuse me quite a bit, and seemed like odd behaviour.

[MrHaugen]

The 3d flow list works less well (which is what you used in the video).  I wonder if the flow list should be changed so that the selected item is _always_ centered.  It might be a little confusing having both selected states and scroll position.

That's a very good point. Without a center focus for touch movement, you'll have some very strange navigation. This applies especially at the cover flow view.
I also think that this should be the behavior for the rollers. Focus stays at the item ending up in the middle. You could even have auto entering on the item if the selection is untouched for 0.5 seconds or something around there. That would be pretty snappy I think.

Other views like thumbnail and list views would probably be better if center item focus was not applied. Just leave the selection where it was, and require the user to physically tap an item to get info. Tap another time to "enter" item (big info pane).

I'm not sure about any of this. Just throwing out some ideas. I'll have to wait until I get a touch unit my self before I can say something for sure about the experience.

[gvanbrunt]

Now that I think of it, last time I tested cover flow wasn't even around. So that would explain why I had no issues before.

I just got my tablet rebuilt so I should be able to test it with Win 8 shortly. One thing I did learn, that touchscreens that came with win 7 will most likely need a firmware update to work properly with Win 8. I had lots of issues before, but only recently found a firmware update for the tablet. Works MUCH better in desktop mode. Was very finicky before as it was likely optimized for pen use.

[DarkPenguin]

I'm not sure that any ui designed around left, right, up, down and enter is going to be entirely appropriate for a touch screen.  I'd like some play, pause, prev and next gestures.

The hard part with this is that some number of gestures are not going to work you through a list.  They'll select the item.  That is kind of irritating.  Doesn't happen a ton but enough to think the UI wasn't designed for this.

[glynor]

The classic thumbnail lists or 3d wall probably work the best with touch.

The 3d flow list works less well (which is what you used in the video).  I wonder if the flow list should be changed so that the selected item is _always_ centered.  It might be a little confusing having both selected states and scroll position.

This has been my experience exactly using Theater View on our couple of high-end touchscreen computers.  Thumbnails and the 3D Wall (which I generally don't use otherwise) is best.  The selected states versus scroll position is the main thing that is confusing when using things like Lineup view.  It "jumps" around (or so it seems until you see what is happening).

That said, list-type views can work extremely well on touch screens.  If they're designed for it.

I think MC needs to know, somehow, if it is being used with a touchscreen or with a keyboard/remote.  The problem is, of course, with new hybrid devices, the answer could be "both".

[MrHaugen]

Can't input be flagged as touch, keyboard or mice depending on where the commands are sent from?
If that is the case, it would just be a quick check of what input is used before deciding what behavior Theater View should use.

[jmone]

OK, had a play for a few days and:
- No current view works well as you can not even bring up the media controls with a finger.  The current views are great with a Keyboard/Mouse or a RC but not a touch screen.  It is unworkable.
- I'd suggest that a Gizmo app for the "Modern" IF (aka Metro) is really what is needed (and while you are at it one for IOS as well). 
- Oddly when connecting over a WLAN to the Library Server you get a msg saying that playback of BD is not supported yet works fine with Gizmo on Android ...

I'm not sure what other feedback JR needs but Win8 is here but Gizmo Client for other touch IF is what really makes sense and would open playback up to non-Andriod Tablets.

[fitbrit]

The transport controls (play, stop, etc.) need to be bigger, as do the roller items. I often missed "Watch" once or twice.

[jmone]

This tablet is a 1920x1080 screen in an 11" format so all the controls are way way to small to use with a finger.  You also have no way to bring up any controls without a keyboard or mouse when the keyboad is not attached.

Bring on Gizmo for Windows and iOS!

[MrHaugen]

While I don't think it would be bad to have a gizmo for windows, I think it's better to focus on making Theater View touch friendly. Gizmo often get little attention except for playback issues, that I fear it would make things worse to introduce another playback interface.

A simple "enable Theater View" for touch would probably go a long way. Increasing the size of the rollers, enabling a touch gesture to pop up a playback panel, fixing the focus problems in certain views and a few other things.

These are things that probably needs to be done anyway, as the Theater View can be controlled with Tremote. I can see no better way than using a Pad as a Tremote control if Theater View works well with touch! With some additional play from xxxxx play to xxxxxx with tremote, it would easily beat Gizmo imo.

[jmone]

MrH - that was my first thought as well.  But after playing with "Modern" I've come to realise that Windows 8 Pro ships with two completely different OS installed at once.  The traditional Windows Desktop and Modern.  Windows RT ships only with "Modern".  The feel of Modern really is completely different and is more like Android.  While I'm sure such a Gizmo View is one way of tackling the situation for those with Windows Pro, a separate Modern based Gizmo app (via the MS Store) makes more sense to me as it allows access to both Windows 8 Pro and also Windows RT.

[MrHaugen]

I know. I just don't care much for the RT version. Because it can not run MC. Of course, in the long run it would be good with a modern interface to use on RT, but other users will probably create something like this anyway. I think that some Win Phone apps that is available today probably can be run on the RT Pads. I think x86 versions of pads, laptops (and even workstation with touch screens) will be pretty popular onward too. Not just RT. And it would be a better immediate payoff by adapting the current view to such devices.

MC users on ARM vs x86 systems are a no brainer. And it will be like this for some time.
Effort to fix Theater View to work well with touch would probably be small compared to creating a new player, maintaining the application and learning another programming language.

I would love both. But if JRiver have to prioritize... This is my suggestion.

[jmone]

[stirpot]Bet you a beer it is quicker and easier to port Gizmo to Modern and iOS than MC to OSX  [/stirpot]

[MrHaugen]

I'll not bet against you on that one

[jmone]

If a pic is with a 100 words, I hope this video is worth more in comparing how playback works on Andriod and Win8 Touch Screens:
- Notice how difficult it it to even launch and operate MC from the Std Desktop on W8 with a finger
- also ... I keep saying Screen/Keyboard when I should be saying Keyboard/Mouse
- sorry for the Vampire content (it was towards the top of the list)!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59011278/MConW8.wmv

[jmone]

I'll not bet against you on that one

Happy to shout.... My Place then?

[MrHaugen]

Thanks for the video. There's a few things you can do to make this more touch friendly.

I'm not sure about this one, but is it not possible to pin standard desktop apps as shortcuts to the modern UI?
The second thing you should do is to set the startup type to Theater View. It will make it more touch friendly.

As for the controlling of video/music or playback, I agree. It's not very logical. It is possible to do better than you currently showed us though. You tap to pause and double tap to exit. Then you can go to Playing now and control some more options. But it's far from intuitive. A touch friendly popup with volume, skip/previous, ff/rw, stop and play/pause options would probably be needed for this all to seem more logical. You could drag it from the top or bottom of the screen, as long as it does not conflict with any built in Win8 methods.

When it comes to skins, I think using a touch based skin is wrong, even though I understand the need at this time. This will put a dampener on skin development. I believe that specific options for Touch handling or a better default handling of touch in today's normal Theater View skins are the way to go.

Jmone, have you tried the default skin with touch? How does the rollers behave with touch? You touch, it centers and then you have to click the centered item again to enter?
If that is the case, I would suggest that the rollers work by snapping to the centered item and auto entering when you start scrolling the rollers. That would be pretty intuitive. At least to me.

[jmone]

Ahhh - that is the point of the video.  Both were from the Default Setup, and each have their own strengths and weaknesses.  Out of the Box, Gismo works great on Touch and MC with a Std IF so why compromise?  Horses for Courses.

[MrHaugen]

I hate to repeat my self. So I won't.

[JimH]

The transport controls (play, stop, etc.) need to be bigger, as do the roller items. I often missed "Watch" once or twice.

Try setting the size option in Tools/Options/Theater View.  150%, for example.

[glynor]

The transport controls (play, stop, etc.) need to be bigger, as do the roller items. I often missed "Watch" once or twice.

Funny... That never happened on my 80" touchscreen.  

I did have to bump the size up a bit on my 27" one though (it runs at 2550 x 1440).

[fitbrit]

Funny... That never happened on my 80" touchscreen.  

I did have to bump the size up a bit on my 27" one though (it runs at 2550 x 1440).

I'm more envious of the smaller 2550 x 1440 one!

[fitbrit]

Try setting the size option in Tools/Options/Theater View.  150%, for example.

Thanks. I think this will help a lot.

[fitbrit]

While I don't think it would be bad to have a gizmo for windows, I think it's better to focus on making Theater View touch friendly. Gizmo often get little attention except for playback issues, that I fear it would make things worse to introduce another playback interface.

A simple "enable Theater View" for touch would probably go a long way. Increasing the size of the rollers, enabling a touch gesture to pop up a playback panel, fixing the focus problems in certain views and a few other things.

These are things that probably needs to be done anyway, as the Theater View can be controlled with Tremote. I can see no better way than using a Pad as a Tremote control if Theater View works well with touch! With some additional play from xxxxx play to xxxxxx with tremote, it would easily beat Gizmo imo.

A big +1 for this. I'd rather be using a touchscreen with a fully-fledged MC TheaterView than with Gizmo. At least I think I would; to date I've only used WebGizmo on iOS.

[Osho]

I am joining into this conversation a little late - but how about a dedicated Windows 8 Metro app that is basically the same as the regular MC18 - except that it only acts  as a Library Client (read-only no editing capabilities) and has only Theater View+Display View and has improved Display View interface to be touch friendly. It would by default connect to the Library Server running on the same machine but could also possibly be configured to connect to another Library Server using the key as per usual method.

THanks,
Osho

[MrHaugen]

I think that would be out of the question, unless RT becomes the next big thing. Porting Theater View without standard view would be almost impossible, as all config are done in standard view. And playback for Audio, Video and Images would probably need most of the playback engine to be ported as well. All this for Win 8 RT? Just look at how long time it's taken for JRiver to port just standard view with some Audio capabilities for OSx.

[Osho]

I think that would be out of the question, unless RT becomes the next big thing. Porting Theater View without standard view would be almost impossible, as all config are done in standard view. And playback for Audio, Video and Images would probably need most of the playback engine to be ported as well. All this for Win 8 RT? Just look at how long time it's taken for JRiver to port just standard view with some Audio capabilities for OSx.

I wasn't suggesting to do this for Win 8 RT - but for regular Win 8 on PC platform. There are plenty of tablets/touchscreen laptop/ultrabook/convertibles where this will be useful. I would even like to use this on an all-in-one touchscreen desktop PC.

Thanks,
Osho

[gvanbrunt]

Jmone:

That looks to be a series 7 slate? If so you need to update the touchscreen firmware. Works MUCH better with touch in desktop mode that way. Mine was very finicky till I updated it. Was hard to select things.

Here is a link to some info:

http://www.samsung.com/global/windowspreview/

[jmone]

thanks but it is the brand new (yet to be released in many markets) Samsung ATIV preinstalled with W8 - more in this thread http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=75784.0

[jmone]

Thanks for the suggestions - just got to try them out with a new video of the results ---> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59011278/MConW8-V2.wmv

Thanks for the video. There's a few things you can do to make this more touch friendly.

I'm not sure about this one, but is it not possible to pin standard desktop apps as shortcuts to the modern UI?
The second thing you should do is to set the startup type to Theater View. It will make it more touch friendly.

Yes this works.

As for the controlling of video/music or playback, I agree. It's not very logical. It is possible to do better than you currently showed us though. You tap to pause and double tap to exit. Then you can go to Playing now and control some more options.

Ahhh, this may be part of the issue as:
- Single Tap on the video does nothing. 
- Single Tap on the top part of the screen brings up the Std View control bar (like moving the mouse does).
- Long Tap bring is the Right Click std view menu 
- Double Tap brings you back to Theater View.

I'm wondering is Win8 is not passing on the single tap to MC?  I have also seen instances where the Vol Up and Down keys are not doing anything, it is like MC has to get the focus back.

But it's far from intuitive. A touch friendly popup with volume, skip/previous, ff/rw, stop and play/pause options would probably be needed for this all to seem more logical. You could drag it from the top or bottom of the screen, as long as it does not conflict with any built in Win8 methods.

Sounds fine.  A single TAP that brings up and OSD (like Gizmo or even a Theater View style OSD).  Win8 has the concept of swiping from the edges to do stuff, eg a swipe up from the bottom of the screen in Theaterview could = the Up Arrow key to bring up the OSD.  At present the Down and Up swipe does nothing

Jmone, have you tried the default skin with touch? How does the rollers behave with touch? You touch, it centers and then you have to click the centered item again to enter?
If that is the case, I would suggest that the rollers work by snapping to the centered item and auto entering when you start scrolling the rollers. That would be pretty intuitive. At least to me.

The current rollers work fine to me (see pic).  They are a bit too close together in that you can swipe on the wrong line but it worked fairly well.

[jmone]

Try setting the size option in Tools/Options/Theater View.  150%, for example.

FYI - the Std 125% workes OK for me

[MrHaugen]

I wasn't suggesting to do this for Win 8 RT - but for regular Win 8 on PC platform. There are plenty of tablets/touchscreen laptop/ultrabook/convertibles where this will be useful. I would even like to use this on an all-in-one touchscreen desktop PC.

Would pretty much be a shortcut to MC in Theater View with some improvements to display view then? Check the video from Jmone. Does not sound any different than the suggestions given previously by improving playback UI for touch? Or am I missing something? Having MC default connecting as a client to it's local server does not make much sense to me. Why would you not just simply run a local player? It would do the same, yes?

Thanks for the suggestions - just got to try them out with a new video of the results ---> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59011278/MConW8-V2.wmv

Great! That showed us the good and bad

The good:
- We can obviously launch MC just from the Modern UI
- MC starting in Theater View (as most of us knew was possible)
- Browsing of thumbnail view looked like it worked as expected. You flip up and down, and select a title for it to focus new items. Click again to enter item. That's how it have to be I think. List view would probably also work well.

The bad:
- As we've discussed before, the Lineup and 3D modes are struggling with scrolling and flicking. Selection could always be centered. That would perhaps sort this kind of problems?
- The rollers does not react logically imo. I think the best would be if the centered item always was selected. So the rollers are always rotating, but the selection is fixed in the middle. There could be a little pause before entering a new view (no pause to bring up second roller), so you could flick the rollers.
- The Playback controls in Display View is just horrible for touch screens. I would suggest to add an ability to drag a playback panel down from the top. With touch friendly buttons. Play, Pause, Stop, Forward, Rewind, Subtitles, Audio streams and so on. This is actually why I suggested the improved OSD was made with rollers. So it would be easier to use with touch.
- Single click does not pause. This should be the normal behavior imo. I thought this was the case one time. Or have I just seen so much Youtube videos that I mix it up?

With those few suggestions, I think the Theater View would be a lot more pleasant for everyone with touch hardware. You could tie all of those changes to an on/off option somewhere, or implement it based on the type of input used perhaps? I don't know what would be best.

[gvanbrunt]

You can bring up the player controls, but it isnt' intuitive from a win 8 perspective: move your finger on the screen to the top (like you would with the mouse) and the controls will pop up. Would be nice if you could bring them up with a top down swipe like other menus. Also would be nice if they were skinable with a theater view skin. After all, most people don't even realize they have left theater view when playing video...

[MrHaugen]

Exactly. I doubt most of the new users really understand the difference. Would be nice if you could reuse the skin effects from Theater view somehow, to create a pane for touch based playback control in Display view. Would give the users a better feel than a standard view skin item suddenly popping up over their video.

[gvanbrunt]

I think display view should be skinable from both Theater and Standard View. It should decide which one to use depending on what launched it. I've always felt the play back controls out of place with some skins.

[fitbrit]

FYI - the Std 125% workes OK for me

For some reason, a long time ago, I think I set it at 70% and forgot all about this option. 150% is pretty good for me.

[gvanbrunt]

thanks but it is the brand new (yet to be released in many markets) Samsung ATIV preinstalled with W8 - more in this thread http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=75784.0

I'm jealous. The series 7 slate is basically the pro version of the ATIV without the keyboard. My biggest complaint of the series 7: no detachable keyboard. The one remaining flaw with the ATIV is no GPS. What were they thinking? Not really a hybrid without one IMHO. Then again the surface doesn't have it either. You can hook in a usb one, but that's clunky.

Can't wait for a hybrid that has all the features I need.