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[JustinChase]

I’m working on setting up several new zones in the house.  I currently have a Yamaha RX-V867 AVR (Manual here), which allows for a 7.1 channel main zone and a 2.0 channel 'Zone 2' to be used simultaneously.  I have this hooked up to a 5.1 channel “Living Room” zone and a 2 channel “Patio” zone, which works fine so far.

The Living Room zone is connected like so: HTPC => HDMI => AVR=> HDMI => TV.

The Patio zone is connected via the Front Left/Right analog output of the onboard Realtek sound card (ALC898 - 8 channels) to the AVR.  The AVR only accepts analog input for the 2nd Zone (Patio).  The motherboard also offers a digital audio connection, but Zone 2 will not accept this.

I want to add zones for 3 bedrooms, and (maybe) the garage.

I have a Marantz SR8200 AVR (Manual here) that I plan to use for the amplifiers for the bedroom zones.  It offers 7.1 channel inputs, but only has 6 amplifiers (which confuses me).  It also has a Zone 2 capability.

I’m thinking that I can use the digital audio to connect directly to the Marantz, and use MC to ‘split’ the digital signal into the 3 zones that the Marantz can amplify for me (each bedroom).

I’m still in the process of finishing all the wiring, then I’ll have to dig out the Marantz AVR and hook it up, then I can try my plan to see how it works.

I just wanted to post this now, to see if anyone has any feedback or ideas on how to do this better.  Also to see how I might get the Garage zone amplified with this setup, since the Marantz only has 6 amps, and the Yamaha doesn’t have any way that I can see to use the 2 amps I’m not using for 7.1 for these 2 (garage) speakers.

If I have to buy/get another amp just for the garage, it’s not going to be worth it, since I don’t really have the space for another amp anywhere.

Finally, is there any good way to have MC, or the Yamaha AVR turn on and off the Marantz whenever it’s needed, so that it’s not left on all the time?  It has an RS232C connection, and both it and the Yamaha have triggered power plugs.  The Yamaha has a “Trigger Out” connector, but I don’t see a trigger in connector on the Marantz.  It does however, offer a Trigger Out, so maybe I need to use the marantz for the main living room zone, and the Yamaha for the extra amplifiers.  This actually kind of appeals to me, since the Marantz has higher quality amps, but it doesn’t have HDMI, and it has a very annoying ‘lag’ when skipping, pausing or otherwise changing a playing stream.

Anyway, feedback is much appreciated, and I’ll update once I get further along in connecting everything up.

[JustinChase]

Okay, I've been experimenting a bit, but am stumped.

I have the realtek audio driver installed, and have it set for 7.1 channels.  This gives me the following options in MC for Direct Sound, and selecting Realtek (speakers) as the output for the zone.

Front Left & Right
Center & LFE
Side Left & Right
Back Left & Right

No matter which one i select, it sends the audio thru the Front Left & Right output.  It will output sound from 2 zones, playing different things all thru the Front Left & Right, so I can hear 2 songs playing simultaneously from the speakers connected to that output, but nothing from the speakers connected to the other outputs (i tried all 3 other options, and they all behave the same.

i tried changing speaker volume to all of the options (system, internal, application), but it didnt' make any difference.  I tried turning off "allow applications to take exclusive control, but that didn't matter either.  There was no way i could find to output sound thru the other analog outputs of the motherboard outputs.

is this a bug, or am I doing it wrong?

[JimH]

Try testing from Windows control panel to see if it works there.  There is a test under Sounds.

[JustinChase]

I'm not really sure how to test this.  My understanding is the MC is going to send stereo sound to 2 of the 8 channels, depending on which pair I select from the 4 pairs offered.  MC seems to not be doing this, and I don't know how I could test this using the windows sound setup system.

What I can test is that when I use the windows sound test, windows is sending sound to the proper speakers, and the HTPC is routing the sound to the proper speakers.  i.e. when I have the test speakers hooked up to the center/LFE output, I hear sound when windows displays those speakers as the ones being tested.

I cannot, however, get MC to route sound to those speakers using the DSP setup the way I think it's supposed to work (which could be mistaken).

[JustinChase]

So, am I doing it wrong, or is MC not working like it should in this situation?

[JustinChase]

Okay, so i pulled out the old receiver, hooked it up and tried using the digital output from the HTPC into the Marantz AVR, and it's behaving the same way.  no matter which pair of speakers I select in MC, it sends all signals to the Front Right/Left output.  I've created 2 zones, with one going to Front L/R and the other going to surround L/R, and both send the sound to the speakers connected to Front L/R, and puts on signal on top of the other, so it's playing both songs simultaneously.

I tried changing the surround L/R to Center/Sub, and it made no difference.  All output is going to the Front L/R

I believe this must be a bug.

[Matt]

The DirectSound routing approach you're using only works with some hardware.

This approach works with any hardware:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71218.0

[Ekpen]

Speaking of Yamaha Receiver's RS 232-- have you heard of the receiver manager? I once downloaded from somewhere. Check if that will help in the control of this receiver. Glad you have rs 232 device.


I have the Susano Elite-Pioneer with RS 232 now, planning to upgrade to a new Elite after CES is over, waiting to see what is out there.

I hope MC-18 can handle devices that have RS -232 .
I will be attaching my DVD, and Blu ray mega changers (Sony) via RS 232 very soon. I hope MC can scan these changers  with RS 232 interface for contents.

Let me know if you  can not find the Yamaha receiver manager.
Thanks.
Ekpen.

[JustinChase]

The DirectSound routing approach you're using only works with some hardware.

This approach works with any hardware:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71218.0

Great, thanks Matt!  I'll try that when I get home tonight.  To be clear, I want to confirm that I need to change this a bit...

So, two zone output looks like this (it should scale to 4 stereo zone output with a 7.1 card):

1. Configure Windows to think of the device as 4.0
2. Create two zones in Media Center
3. Set both zones to use WASAPI - Event Style (not in exclusive mode, since we need both to use the card at once)
4. Set both zones to output at the system samplerate in DSP Studio > Output Format (probably 48 kHz, but configurable in Windows sound configuration for the device)
5. Set both zones to output at 4.0, using JRSS
6. Use 'Parametric Equalizer 2' to only target the proper lines:
     Zone 1: 'Mute SL,SR'
     Zone 2: 'Move L to SL', 'Move R to SR', 'Mute L,R'
7. Set the volume to 'Internal Volume' for both zones (you probably want to set the system volume to 100% as well)
8. Configure speaker distances and levels with Room Correction for each zone (configure for L/R only, since that's the channel used until the very end when Parametric Equalizer 2 moves channels)

to...

four zone output looks like this:

1. Configure Windows to think of the device as 7.1
2. Create four zones in Media Center
3. Set all zones to use WASAPI - Event Style (not in exclusive mode, since we need both to use the card at once)
4. Set all zones to output at the system samplerate in DSP Studio > Output Format (probably 48 kHz, but configurable in Windows sound configuration for the device)  -  {why 48 kHz, and not 44.1, which is most music; not that it probably matters}
5. Set all zones to output at 7.1, using JRSS
6. Use 'Parametric Equalizer - 'Order Channels' to only target the proper lines:
      {I'll have to play with this once I actually see the system, since it seems to now be substantially different from this guide}
7. Set the volume to 'Internal Volume' for all zones (you probably want to set the system volume to 100% as well)  {or whatever reference level I measure?}
8. Configure speaker distances and levels with Room Correction for each zone (configure for L/R only, since that's the channel used until the very end when Parametric Equalizer 2 moves channels)  -  {distance to the listening position in that room/zone?}

That doesn't seem too difficult, so hopefully I'll get it working tonight, and the nagging will stop

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

Speaking of Yamaha Receiver's RS 232-- have you heard of the receiver manager? I once downloaded from somewhere. Check if that will help in the control of this receiver. Glad you have rs 232 device.


I have the Susano Elite-Pioneer with RS 232 now, planning to upgrade to a new Elite after CES is over, waiting to see what is out there.

I hope MC-18 can handle devices that have RS -232 .
I will be attaching my DVD, and Blu ray mega changers (Sony) via RS 232 very soon. I hope MC can scan these changers  with RS 232 interface for contents.

Let me know if you  can not find the Yamaha receiver manager.
Thanks.
Ekpen.

I'm not sure if the Yamaha has RS-232 (can't remember), but the Marantz does, and that's the unit I'm using to amplify all the zone speakers I'll configure above.  I was planning on connecting that directly to the HTPC, then figuring out how to get MC to turn it on/off whenever playback is started in a zone that needs it.

I've got the Yamaha android app called AV Controller, which I think might be the same as what you're suggesting, but perhaps not.  I can use what I have to turn on/off either of the zones, control the volume, and control playback/input selections for the Yamaha.  I'd love to find a way to take that functionality and put it into a "Whole house control" control system, to control MC (Gizmo) and the Marantz all from one program.  I'm not sure it's even possible, and I certainly don't have the programing knowledge to even start to create something like that, but my goal for this year is to learn to program something, so that will be my pet project.  if I ever get something useful, I'll certainly share, but like I said, I'm not even sure this is possible, yet.

[Matt]

5. Set all zones to output at 7.1, using JRSS

Everything is right, except that part.

Set them all to output 2.0 inside 7.1.  There's no point mixing to 7.1 if you're going to throw the other channels away (and if you have anything other than silence on the other channels, it'll make a mess).

[JustinChase]

Thanks again Matt.

Okay, so a somewhat frustrating evening, but mostly successful.

I was hoping I could use the digital optical cable from the onboard Realtek ALC898 chip to send 7.1 channels to the Marantz (3 bedrooms and the garage), then use the front R/L from the analog output to send to the Patio zone.  The Realtek chip claims "7.1+2 CHANNEL HIGH DEFINITION AUDIO CODEC WITH CONTENT PROTECTION", which sounds like I should be able to send to 5 zones from this one chip, which is perfect.

However, I was never able to get the digital output to send more than a stereo signal.  I disconnected all other analog connections, and created a zone to just send 5.1 and/or 7.1 output to the Marantz, but it only ever showed a stereo signal.  I tried every combination of settings on the Marantz (auto surround, source direct) and only ever saw stereo.  I tried changing the setting in the driver to NOT force front and back outputs to output the same signal, and that actually opened up another audio output option, limited to stereo (which would be fine, since i'd just use that for the Patio), but still only ever received Stereo at the Marantz.

I eventually gave up and used the analog outputs to send to the 7.1 input on the Marantz, and got it working as described.  Unfortunately, I only have 2 3.5mm 'splitter' cables to go from the board to the receiver, so I can't test that it works for all 8 channels, but I assume it will.

Sadly though, I discovered another 'flaw' in the plan, which is that although the Marantz offers 7.1 channel input, and supposedly offers 7.1 channel output, it achieves that by not sending an amplified signal to the subwoofer, and only sends one amplified output to one rear surround, with a pair of pre-amp outs if I want to use 2 rear surrounds, which then need their own amplifier.  So, I can still only send amplified signals to 6 speakers thru the Marantz.   So, I have to find another way to power the 4th zone.  I'm thinking this will be done by connecting the garage and the patio speakers to the same terminal on the Yamaha AVR Zone 2 output, since I can turn that zone with my phone.  This would mean I'd have to have both zones actually playing music when using either zone in MC, but I don't have any other amps I can use and a 2 channel amp is over the cost/value limit in this case.  I've thought about a car stereo amp, since they seem way more affordable, but I'm guessing it brings it's own problems 

Also, by having to use the analog outputs to get the 4 zones working, I don't have any way to send a separate, 5th signal to the Patio, unless the front output can actually send a different signal than the rear outputs, and even then, that means an ugly cable sticking out the front of the HTPC 

Maybe someone has some experience with this common Realtek chip, and can help me get the optical output to work for 7.1 and I can use the rear "Front L/R" analog for the Patio, like I have been doing thus far.

I suppose if push comes to shove, I'll just have one zone in MC for the patio and garage, since they will probably be connected to the same amp output, but I'd prefer to keep them separate if possible.

Thoughts/suggestions/feedback welcome

[JustinChase]

i hate when i can't sleep because my mind keeps working on problems, but I like when it comes up with solutions.  i think i may have one, but it's too late to test, plus I'm not sure the best method.

It seems that I can't send more than 2 channels uncompressed over optical cable, so that's why I'm only ever receiving Stereo on the marantz.  I see there's an option in the DSP settings for having MC encode to Output surround sound to Dolby Digital, but it's greyed out if I select 2 channels in a x.1 container.  i have to pick the full 5.1 channels to have the option to encode.  So, I think I need to do this, them Mute the unwanted channels.

My question is, should I order the channels, them mute, or mute, then order, or some other method?  I'm planning to try order, then mute, since that makes more sense to me.

I've got to pull the TV/stereo stand out from the wall to test, and would have to send sound to the bedrooms of sleeping people, so it will have to wait until tomorrow, but i bet this works.

big benefit is that i don't have to buy 3 more cables for the analog and can use the rear analog for the patio zone (I assume).

Now, how to power the garage zone separate from the Patio, and I'm all done!  Car amp?  Sell the marantz and buy an 8 channel amp?

sleep?  yes, it's time

[BartMan01]

Have you considered using separate sound cards (or USB devices) with your PC for each zone?  Then configure MC to send each zone to a different device and send each to a different input on the receiver.  Then you can use the built in 'multi-zone' functionality  in the receiver as designed.

[JustinChase]

Yeah, I've considered that, but I think I mostly have the zones separated enougth at this point, so for now, it's probalby not going to be necessary.

As for using the AVR multi-zone functionality as designed, I basically am already.  I use the Yamaha second zone for the patio, which allows me to still send/use 5.1 to the living room, and separate stereo to the patio, all with internal amplification.

the mutli-zone in the Marantz uses 2 of the 6 amp channels, so it would kill the 5.1 signal ability if enabled.

My problem at this point is that I'm short 2 amps for the last zone I want to enable, so I'm going to have to pair up a couple of zones I think, or get more amps.

The idea above of encoding the zones into Dolby Digital should work (I hope) and that should allow me to use the analog output on the back of the HTPC for sending to the Patio zone (and garage?), so until I get more amps, I think I'm as far along as I can be.

I just need to know if there is a preferred method for converting the stereo zones into 5.1 DD (order chanels, then mute, or some other method?)

I started looking at 8 channel amps, but they are typically not cheap, and if I'm going to buy a multichannel amp, would I prefer to use it for the (better) Theater speakers and use the AVR for the zones?  It opens another can of worms I want to avoid at this time

[BartMan01]

My problem at this point is that I'm short 2 amps for the last zone I want to enable, so I'm going to have to pair up a couple of zones I think, or get more amps.

Look for high quality 1 or 2 channel amps in the used market, and check out the amps from Emotiva or Outlaw.  I am running my main 5.1 system off of 5 of the old Marantz MA-500 monoblocks and love them.

[JustinChase]

Thanks.  I will do that.  My fear is that the shipping cost of any good (read: heavy) amp will be cost prohibitive, nor do I know enough yet to know what to look for.  I know the basics, but probalby just enough to get myself into trouble

I guess this is another endorsement for Craigslist (read: local)

FYI, I love my 20 year old Marantz, it still sounds great!

[fitbrit]

Thanks.  I will do that.  My fear is that the shipping cost of any good (read: heavy) amp will be cost prohibitive, nor do I know enough yet to know what to look for.  I know the basics, but probalby just enough to get myself into trouble

I guess this is another endorsement for Craigslist (read: local)

FYI, I love my 20 year old Marantz, it still sounds great!

I'm really enjoying this one in my 11.1 setup:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=302-601

Reviewed well, and free shipping too.

[JustinChase]

Argh!

Okay, so encoding to Dolby Digital doesn't work that way either.

I tried a lot of variations, and discovered, that whenever I remove the "allow exclusive" check, MC seems to then force the files to 48/32, then complains that my reciever can't handle that format (although i believe it can).  However, whenever I select dolby encoding, it greys out the bitrate/sample rate conversion options.  I would assume it should then select something that works, but it's just not working.

I think I've also figured out how to power the final zone without purchasing another pair of amps, but that's not working like i think it should either.

My plan was to use the HDMI from the HTPC to the Yamaha send:

• 5.1 channels (inside a 7.1 container) for the Living Room zone and mute the rear R/L channels, which should route the 5.1 to the 5.1 speakers I have
• 2 channels (inside a 7.1 container) for the Patio zone, and mute everything but the rear R/L, and connect the patio speakers here.

This should allow me to just turn on the receiver to the HDMI input to hear either the living room or the patio or both, and not need the 2nd zone on the Yamaha for these zones.

Then, connect the rear analog L/R from the HTPC to the Yamaha zone 2 to control the garage zone.  The Yamaha will automatically re-route the signal from the rear surround L/R (patio) to the zone 2 (garage) speakers if that zone is turned on, so I couldn't hear the garage and patio at the same time, but they are on opposite sides of the house, so this is perfectly acceptable.

However, as soon as I turn off "allow exclusive" it gives me an error about bit/sample rates and nothing works

I then wanted to use the Realtek optical to send the other 3 zones to the Marantz, but I can't get this to work either.  If I can get the HDMI working for the Living Room and Patio zones, I could just use the analog outs for the Garage and 2 bedrooms, but getting the optical working saves me from buying more cables.

I think this all should work, and I think I'm doing it 'right' but it's not doing what I suspect it should be doing.

What more information can I provide to figure out how to get this squared away?  I'm so close now, I can taste it, but alas, no worky

[JustinChase]

I this a bug, or is it not supposed to work this way?

When trying to get this working over HDMI , whenever I remove the "Open device for exclusive access" check, MC seems to then force the files to 48/32, then complains that my receiver can't handle that format (although I believe it can), and playback fails.

Also, when using Optical digital connection and I select "Output surround as Dolby Digital", it greys out the bitrate/sample rate conversion options, then complains that my receiver can't handle the format, and fails. 

These seem 'broken' to me.


What I'm trying to do is to use the HDMI from the HTPC to the Yamaha send:

5.1 channels (inside a 7.1 container) for the Living Room zone and mute the rear R/L channels, which should route the 5.1 to the 5.1 speakers I have. and send 2 channels (inside a 7.1 container) for the Patio zone, and mute everything but the rear R/L, and connect the patio speakers here.

I could then use the optical for the other zones, but it's not working

Am I doing it wrong?