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[djwobbrock]

I was reading the JRiver MC forum on headfi, and someone posted about upgrading to MC18, and that there were sonic improvements to be had. So, I decided to do the upgrade, from my MC16. Turns out to be a big mistake....I connected my Sansa Fuze +, and copied a couple of albums over. When the copy was done, I tried to close the Fuze, and my mouse was frozen.....had to do a hard shut down and reboot.

 Later, after I checked all of my setting from MC16 to MC18, I was listening to music, Sting, "The Soul Cages", to be exact. All of a sudden my screen distorted, locked, and I got my first blue screen of death. Had this computer over a year with no problems running MC16, so I rebooted, this time listening to the same album in MC16, which luckily I kept both versions. Later I tried MC18, same sequence of events led to another BSOD. I finnished the night listening to MC16. Now this morning, I immediately went back to MC18, same album.....same problem, am now listening to MC16!

 Now what do I do, no phone support, and JRiver got my $24......how do I get a refund. I have been happy with MC for several years and I thought it was great, but they keep trying to get more money out of me every year asking me to do an upgrade because the new version is better. I am supposed to believe that?

 Need help, stuck!

[mojave]

I saw your post at AVS and see that you took nwboater's advice. JRiver is closed this week, but maybe some of us users can help out.

Since your problem seems reproducible, uploading an error log might help. You can go to Help > Logging and enable logging and reset the log file. Reset it just before listening to the album to keep the log shorter. After the BSOD, reboot and then go back to Logging and click Report Problem. The log is then saved to the desktop and you can post it here by clicking "Additional Options" and attaching the log file. I don't know if anyone here can help by looking at the log file, but at least it is a first step for JRiver to help out.

When you upgraded, did you import your library and settings? Are you using version 18.0.103 that is at the top of this board?

[JimH]

We provide a 30 day trial of the full version, so we don't provide refunds.

A blue screen is a hardware or driver problem.

Does anything work with the Fuze?

[djwobbrock]

We provide a 30 day trial of the full version, so we don't provide refunds.

A blue screen is a hardware or driver problem.

Does anything work with the Fuze?

I went back to the default skin from Noire Glass, that I switched to yesterday.  Never tried another skin in MC16, thought I would try a different look.  I can get by the fuze problem by not transfering through MC18, I can put the SD micro card in a SD adapter and transfer music in MSC mode!

So, I don't understand why the Noire Glass skin caused problems....this computer has never bsod, and I have been using MC16 and previous for a long time.  The lockups looked like a video problem in appearance....I have been a computer administrator for 15 years, and video is usually the first place to look.  But changing a skin?  Since going back to the default skin I have been listening for hours with no lock up or bsod.........I have a HP notebook with the latest video driver, and no prob until this.  I know from experience there is always finger pointing between hardware support and software support. 

[djwobbrock]

I saw your post at AVS and see that you took nwboater's advice. JRiver is closed this week, but maybe some of us users can help out.

Since your problem seems reproducible, uploading an error log might help. You can go to Help > Logging and enable logging and reset the log file. Reset it just before listening to the album to keep the log shorter. After the BSOD, reboot and then go back to Logging and click Report Problem. The log is then saved to the desktop and you can post it here by clicking "Additional Options" and attaching the log file. I don't know if anyone here can help by looking at the log file, but at least it is a first step for JRiver to help out.

When you upgraded, did you import your library and settings? Are you using version 18.0.103 that is at the top of this board?

Imported my library.....is there a way to import settings, I reset all of my settings from MC16 to MC18 manually.  Thanks for the info on logging, I will reset that and maybe go back to the Noire Glass skin that I think was causing the problem.  First time using this forum, and it appears I figured out that it works, and there are people out there willing to help, thank god, and thank you for the reply!

I thought I was going have to try Foobar....... ?

[JimH]

Imported my library.....is there a way to import settings...

If you backup in MC16 and restore in MC18, your settings will also be restored.

[djwobbrock]

If you backup in MC16 and restore in MC18, your settings will also be restored.

Are you talking about library backup and restore?  If, so does that auto import my music?  I obviously have done nothing but the minimum user tasks since having MC, my fault for not knowing, I simply took the easy way out.

Doesn't MC automatically do that when I purchase an upgrade?

[JimH]

Are you talking about library backup and restore?

Yes.  It includes both your music and your settings.

[MrC]

What model HP do you have?  More directly, what video card/chip is in the system?

HP, like other large PC Mfgs., are slow or loathe to update existing drivers, esp. for older systems.  Typically, it is better and more reliable to go to the chip vendor's site and use their released drivers.

[djwobbrock]

What model HP do you have?  More directly, what video card/chip is in the system?

HP, like other large PC Mfgs., are slow or loathe to update existing drivers, esp. for older systems.  Typically, it is better and more reliable to go to the chip vendor's site and use their released drivers.

I also checked the driver through Windows device manager, and it was shown as up to date?  I know about checking with the vendor, but that does not mean it is approved by HP or Windows, and that may cause other problems.  I just reset the skin to noire glass, and the problem repeated.  This time I have it logged ready to send......where?

Here is the sysinfo from the log that was saved:

Code: [Select]

Media Center
    Install Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 18\
    Interface Plugins: TiVo Server (not running)
    JRMark: never run
    Library: 5716 files, 809 KB in library, 40.0 MB in thumbnails
    Resources: 117 MB memory, 330 handles
    Version: 18.0.103.0 Registered
Batteries
    Microsoft AC Adapter (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    Microsoft ACPI-Compliant Control Method Battery (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    Microsoft Composite Battery (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
Computer
    ACPI x64-based PC (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
Disk drives
    TOSHIBA MK6476GSX SATA Disk Device (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
Display adapters
    AMD Radeon(TM) HD 6520G (driver 8.832.0.0)
DVD/CD-ROM drives
    hp DVD A  DS8A5LH SATA CdRom Device (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
Human Interface Devices
    HID-compliant consumer control device (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    HID-compliant device (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
    HID-compliant device (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
    USB Input Device (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
    USB Input Device (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
    USB Input Device (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers
    AMD SATA Controller (driver 1.2.1.292)
    ATA Channel 0 (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
    ATA Channel 1 (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
    Standard Dual Channel PCI IDE Controller (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
Imaging devices
    HP TrueVision HD
 (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
Keyboards
    HID Keyboard Device (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
    Standard PS/2 Keyboard (driver 6.1.7601.17514)
Memory
    Free Physical Memory: 1.9 GB
    Total Memory: 3.5 GB
Memory technology driver
    Realtek PCIE CardReader (driver 6.1.7600.80)
Mice and other pointing devices
    HID-compliant mouse (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    Synaptics PS/2 Port TouchPad (driver 15.2.4.4)
Monitors
    Generic PnP Monitor (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    Generic PnP Monitor (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
Network adapters
    Ralink RT5390 802.11b/g/n WiFi Adapter (driver 3.2.2.0)
    Realtek PCIe GBE Family Controller (driver 7.41.216.2011)
Operating System
    Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit
Processors
    AMD A6-3400M APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    AMD A6-3400M APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    AMD A6-3400M APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
    AMD A6-3400M APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics (driver 6.1.7600.16385)


[JimH]

I also checked the driver through Windows device manager, and it was shown as up to date?  I know about checking with the vendor, but that does not mean it is approved by HP or Windows, and that may cause other problems.

Anything is possible, but unless you try the video manufacturer's driver, you may have us chasing their bug.

[MrC]

Here's a link to the driver you want.  It's version 12.10.  The version on your system is antiquated.

   http://www2.ati.com/drivers/12-10_vista_win7_win8_64_dd_ccc_whql_net4.exe

Or you can go to AMD's page and enter your product info on the Drivers page:

   http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/Pages/index.aspx

[MrC]

My 2c, forget Windows' suggested device driver updates.  They are even worse than the Mfg's updates.  They are always behind, and their detection procedure is faulty.

[MrC]

I know about checking with the vendor, but that does not mean it is approved by HP or Windows, and that may cause other problems.

No, WHQL drivers mean they have passed the Windows tests for being named as Windows qualified.

HP will not update drivers for an older system unless there is a security risk, or complains are very high.  So you'll be stuck with issues w/out updating.  HP isn't providing you with what's best for you - they're providing whats best for them.

[djwobbrock]

Here's a link to the driver you want.  It's version 12.10.  The version on your system is antiquated.

   http://www2.ati.com/drivers/12-10_vista_win7_win8_64_dd_ccc_whql_net4.exe

Or you can go to AMD's page and enter your product info on the Drivers page:

   http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/Pages/index.aspx

I went to AMD and did the auto detect, and downloading the 145mb driver, so this will take a little to get it installed and tested.  I am in a remote area near Rochester, MN, so Verizon USB, and slow connection!

Hey you guys have been great so far......where the heck have I been.  I believe in the kiss method, and don't panic or make changes until forced into it.  But this support forum really works.  Now I know what the $24 was for!

[JimH]

Hey you guys have been great so far......where the heck have I been.  I believe in the kiss method, and don't panic or make changes until forced into it.  But this support forum really works.  Now I know what the $24 was for!

You're welcome.  A word here would be appreciated.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1352282/jriver-media-center-owners-thread/780#post_22749340

[djwobbrock]

Here's a link to the driver you want.  It's version 12.10.  The version on your system is antiquated.

   http://www2.ati.com/drivers/12-10_vista_win7_win8_64_dd_ccc_whql_net4.exe

Or you can go to AMD's page and enter your product info on the Drivers page:

   http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/Pages/index.aspx

OK, went to the AMD page used their audiodetect tool, downloaded their latest approved driver 142mb, 9.2.0.0, 9/27/2012, installed driver, opened MC18 changed skin to noire glass, started play, and within two minutes had bsod?  I am now downloading the driver from your ati link above, and will report results!

I am now wondereing if this is really worth it.....my reasons for hesitating to install oem drivers, it can be a real hassle just to get one application MC18 back on it's feet.....maybe!

I went to the AMD link you provided, and answered their questions, and my card was not listed per se....the card ends in G, so nothing was found, they recommended I go to the hp/support page for my driver, which is where I started.

I got a bad feeling here....still downloading the ati driver you linked....I have experienced this with drivers in the past at work, trying to get drafting software to stop locking up....it was a very long process, ended up it was easier to change the video card to another mfg.

[djwobbrock]

You're welcome.  A word here would be appreciated.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1352282/jriver-media-center-owners-thread/780#post_22749340

I would be glad to as soon as my problem is solved.

[JimH]

At this point, it appears to be a video driver problem.

[djwobbrock]

At this point, it appears to be a video driver problem.

I tried all of the driver suggestions (latest and greatest) the MrC suggested.  Took me all afternoon, until now to get them all downloaded and tested.  So after eight hours, there is no fix on the video driver side.  So my beta tester hat is coming off....and unless you can push a fix, there won't be one.  Like I stated earlier, I have been in IT for a long time, and in the middle of a lot of harware vs software finger pointing.  Frankly I like JRiver, but sure darn wish I had not been so fast to upgrade just to get into beta testing for you!  Had this same conversation many times in the past with other software developers, and I can understand it from your point of view as well, you need to make a buck.  Funny how I get rid of the noire glass skin, and go back to the default skin, I can listen for hours.  Not really worth making a big issue about that....I can live with it, I just spent a lot of time finding out that was the problem!  $24 from counless users can add up real fast for you....Good Luck and enjoy your music!

[MrC]

First let me point out, I'm not associated with JRiver.  I'm a user like you just trying to help out where/when I can.  I'll also point out as an operating system developer and software developer, I too understand these types of problems.

There's no guarantee that the problem you're encountering has been identified or fixed by AMD.  So you have to test to find out.  Its the nature of the beast.

Your card is a 62xx series.  The particular model is noted as supported in the Release Notes.  I checked this before providing the link to you.

MC cannot cause the BSOD you're experiencing.  This can only be caused by a hardware driver or the Windows kernel, because they are the only components that have access at the OS-level.  MC would only crash - not BSOD the OS.   MC must be using the graphics driver for that skin in a way that is triggering a problem with the AMD driver.  And they just haven't experienced this sequence, or been able to reproduce the problem, or fixed it yet.  You can always try their beta drivers, and/or report the problem to them with a dmp file.

It sounds to me like you have a very reasonable workaround - just don't use the Noire Glass skin.

Edit: Updated Noire w/Noire Glass (I was just being lazy and did not spell out the entire name. I feel the shame.)

[djwobbrock]

First let me point out, I'm not associated with JRiver.  I'm a user like you just trying to help out where/when I can.  I'll also point out as an operating system developer and software developer, I too understand these types of problems.

There's no guarantee that the problem you're encountering has been identified or fixed by AMD.  So you have to test to find out.  Its the nature of the beast.

Your card is a 62xx series.  The particular model is noted as supported in the Release Notes.  I checked this before providing the link to you.

MC cannot cause the BSOD you're experiencing.  This can only be caused by a hardware driver or the Windows kernel, because they are the only components that have access at the OS-level.  MC would only crash - not BSOD the OS.   MC must be using the graphics driver for that skin in a way that is triggering a problem with the AMD driver.  And they just haven't experienced this sequence, or been able to reproduce the problem, or fixed it yet.  You can always try their beta drivers, and/or report the problem to them with a dmp file.

It sounds to me like you have a very reasonable workaround - just don't use the Noire Glass skin.

Edit: Updated Noire w/Noire Glass (I was just being lazy and did not spell out the entire name. I feel the shame.)

I tried everyone's sugestions about updated drivers, including the drivers sugested by MrC, MC18 still locks up with all of the updated drivers.

In addition to that, my computer will not restart, it hangs on restart and I have to shut down the computer manually by holding the power on button.  It will start, but power options do not hibernate the computer either!  So, aftera researching that problem, the fix turned out to be rolling back the video driver.  After doing that my restarts work, as well as my power options hibernate the computer like is is suposed to!

Lesson learned............vidio drivers are not the fix all that this forum says!  JimH insists that the locks & BSOD are caused by my video drivers, but the HP recommended drivers are the only drivers that work for computer functionality, and none of the drivers recommended here fixed the MC18 problem!

[JimH]

I'm sorry you weren't able to solve the problem. 

[glynor]

FYI (I never saw this thread before now, so I was unable to help)...

Notebook/Laptop/Mobile GPU drivers are a sorry state of affairs, and have been for a LONG, LONG time.  The problem is that AMD/Nvidia don't provide the "full system" to the notebook vendor, as they do for desktop-style GPUs (where they build and ship a reference card).  This means that there is considerable physical differences between the different vendor implementations, even when the chip in question is on the CPU itself.

Unfortunately, this also means that you're as-often-as-not stuck with whatever driver the OEM provides, and they generally stop pushing updates after 1-3 revs (and often leave them considerably buggy still).  Both AMD and Nvidia provide "mobility" versions of their drivers, but these ARE NOT guaranteed to work with all OEM implementations (and generally work best with those that stick closest to "stock", which usually means the big, ugly, heavy, cheap laptops).  And, unfortunately, HP is notorious for shipping-and-abandoning their platforms...

Here's a guide from someone on HP's forums that might help if you need to bump your drivers:
http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Display-and-Video-e-g-Windows-8/GUIDE-Update-AMD-Mobility-Radeon-drivers-to-fix-graphics/td-p/1406655

If that doesn't work, there are some hack-arounds you can do, though...  For example, this guy releases his own mods of the official AMD Radeon drivers, which work with many HP-branded notebooks:
http://leshcatlabs.net/index.php/category/unifl/

But, to reiterate what others said above...

A hard-lock (where the mouse stops moving and you have to force the computer off) or a BSOD cannot be cause by user-space software like MC on modern Windows platforms.  If you get a BSOD or hard-lock, and it isn't while you were trying to do something "fancy" (like using a BIOS updater or something), this is caused by one of the following:

1. Hardware driver bug or issue.
2. Virus or malware activity.
3. Windows itself is corrupt or broken in some way.
4. Hardware failure.

It cannot be anything else.  The only possible exceptions are software packages that install their own kernel-mode drivers, anti-virus, or low-level system utilities (which are rare enough these days).  MC is not one of these, and almost anything else that you find out there that isn't a "hardware driver" or "utility" would qualify either.

Games and 3D programs often expose underlying weaknesses in drivers and seem to "cause" Blue-Screen crashes.  But what a blue screen crash means is that there was a physical HARDWARE fault.  MC is not allowed to directly access the hardware by the operating system.  All actions have to be taken through interfaces provided by Windows, and it's memory access is "protected".  This is one of the major benefits to the Windows NT/2000/XP/7/8 kernel over the older Windows 95/98/ME style kernels.  Back in the old days, it was possible (common, even) for user-space software to cause these kinds of issues.  But that has been long-since solved.

[MrC]

... and to add.

HP is notorious for loading their systems with HP-this and HP-that crapware, tending to cause as many problems as they purport to solve.  I've found a key to making these systems behave more like any other Windows system is to perform a basic Windows install, sans all the bloat.  It is usually insufficient to just remove the stuff, as too many tentacles have embedded themselves into the Windows core.  From there, one stands a much better chance at success.

I too am sorry djwobbrock was unable to resolve the problem satisfactorily.  Most of us know all too well how frustrating these sorts of problems can be.

[MrC]

Further refining the definition of Blue Screen, or in Unix/Linux worlds, a Panic:

This occurs when the kernel code, or code running on behalf of the kernel in kernel (supervisory) mode, experiences a condition it cannot handle, either because the code was not programmed to manage the condition, or because the condition is not supposed to happen, but did (due to hardware failures such as disk corruption, RAM failures, device failures, etc.).  At that point, the operating system gives up the ghost and Stops to prevent additional data corruption.

No user program, such as MC, runs in kernel mode.

[InflatableMouse]

What was the STOP error received? I can't find it any of the posts above.

The code would tell what went wrong and you can analyse the minidump file (created in c:\windows\minidump\) to get detailed information (this can be done online, www.osronline.com).

[glynor]

That might help to search for a possible solution.  However, I think the guess about GPU drivers is likely a good one.  You can pretty much search google for:

HP <Laptop Model Here> <Game Name Here>

And find page-upon-page of people complaining that they can't get game X running on their laptop.  I've experienced it here with friends and family PLENTY of times, and you don't even want to mention HP GPU drivers (or Lenovo) to our helpdesk at the office.

MC uses the GPU, and you'd assume that the Glass effect (and Theater View) would push it harder than it did with older versions, so... That's a pretty good guess.  That or bad RAM, but if that's the case, he should be seeing weird problems all over the place, not just in MC.

[glynor]

Further refining the definition of Blue Screen, or in Unix/Linux worlds, a Panic:

This occurs when the kernel code, or code running on behalf of the kernel in kernel (supervisory) mode, experiences a condition it cannot handle, either because the code was not programmed to manage the condition, or because the condition is not supposed to happen, but did (due to hardware failures such as disk corruption, RAM failures, device failures, etc.).

No user program, such as MC, runs in kernel mode.

That's a better definition.  Thanks.