Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Yes

3 (60%)

No

0 (0%)

I do not care

2 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 5

[StuckMojo]

Now that I've tried the automtical subtitle download plugin,which works good,i've a problem.

Is there a way that we could change the FPS for subtitles in MC "on the fly",because most of the downloaded subtitles get out of sync,because of different framerates.

Would be a nice Feature,if we could change the FPS for subtitles in Theater View.
Or an fps detection of the movie and automatic subtitle sync with the movie fps would be even more nice.
I know this is nearly impossible,because MC doesn't know the input fps of the subtitle.

[Matt]

The subtitle file should either use time or if it uses frame counts, it should encode the frame rate that assumes in the subtitle file (so frames are really just another way to write time).

In other words, it should work at any frame rate.

If you could provide a sample where this isn't working like you expect, we might be able to fix it (unless the subtitles are just wrong / bad).

[StuckMojo]

I was using an .srt Subtitle.The Plugin only downloads this format.

So,there are no frame counts,only times.
I started Subtitle Workshop and converted the times from 29,97 fps to 25 fps for a movie (25 fps) with it.After that subtitle was in sync with the movie.
That was the problem.I didn't know the original times/fps which were used when they were created.
So i tried it with different settings for input fps.29,97 fps was the correct input fps setting.

That is, what i meant.
Would be a nice option,if we could set fps for subtitles in theater view.So the subtitle times get changed with different fps.

[Matt]

So,there are no frame counts,only times.

I'm a little confused why the frame rate would matter if the subtitle file contains times, like this (from a sample SRT file I have):
00:03:23,173 --> 00:03:27,075

I mean, the movie is the same duration (time scale) regardless of the frame rate.  So why is frame rate relevant?

[StuckMojo]

My movie started with subtitle in sync, but after minutes,ten minutes....and so on, the movie gets more and more out of sync.
Truly,For Playback fps doesn't matter.I don't mean that.
But times were made for the movie with 29,97 fps.My version has 25fps.
NTSC vs PAL Problem.
Subs are from NTSC Source.My movie PAL.
So a NTSC Movie (29,97fps)  with a lentgh 100:00min ->Runtime in PAL (25fps) is 95:54.

So the movie is in Europe 4:06 minutes earlier at the end.

Do you catch the point,now? So fps do matter with subtitles,even if there are no frame counts.
Subtitle Workshop converted NTSC times to PAL timings to compensate the "lost" 4 minutes.

[JustinChase]

The subtitles are all 'ripped' from different media, or from different versions of the video (theatrical release, directors cut, extended, unrated, etc).  Some come from PAL, so are 25 FPS encoded, some from DVD (29.97), some from Blu-Ray (23.976).  If you put a 29.97 subtitle into/with a 23.976 movie, they grow out of sync.  I have not looked too closely at the contents of the .srt subtitles to see if this information is contained within the file, but I suspect it's not.  Only one or 2 sources for subtitles show the FPS information at all, and even then, many of the options have no information about FPS.

I'm not sure there is any good way to 'automate' the correction of this during live playback.

I think the pluging being updated to do a better job of picking the 'right' one is your best bet to get this situation resolved.

I'm spent quite a bit of time looking for subtitles in Spanish for my current collection, and have experienced this frustration myself.  It's a bit of a crap shoot finding the right subs currently.

[Matt]

So the movie is in Europe 4:06 minutes earlier at the end.

I get it.  PAL slowdown strikes again.

However, I'm not sure how to cleanly support this in the subtitle engine.  I suppose there could be a check box to like 'Subtitle requires PAL slowdown compensation'.  It's a little cryptic.

If you can get to +10 here, we'll look at adding the option.

[JustinChase]

As much as I appreciate your willingness to address this, I'm not sure there is a solution.  it's not always PAL that causes this, nor would one probalby know they will suffer from this until they actually are suffering from it, and then how do you correct on the fly?  What if their video is PAL and the subs are from the blu-ray, or vice versa?  Of from a DVD, but your video is blu-ray?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this 'fixed', I'm just not sure how it could be done easily.  Maybe someone more knowledgable about it can help.

[StuckMojo]

MC identifies the fps in movie files,right? So Output fps for Subtitles should work automatically.

And a manual setting for subtitle input fps in Theater View.This won't work automatically. As JustinChase said,too much possibilities from different sources.
I could live with a manual setting for subtitles (input fps) in Theater View.

[JustinChase]

Yeah, there really are only a few speeds, so a toggle to adjust subtitle speed against the known FPS of the video wouldn't be too hard, I suspect.

If this happens, I'll have to look more into the subtitle plugin; grabbing them manually isn't much fun

[StuckMojo]

That's the point, why i was asking.

The Subtitle Plugin itself,works really good,but it's useless for me until i can change fps.

I love to watch TV Shows in original english language.But they are sometimes "too fast" for me.So i use subs to get the whole content.

I forgot, input fps setting should be saved in xml file, so we have to set it only once.

[michi95]

I get it.  PAL slowdown strikes again.

It is not a PAL slowdown.
It is called PAL speedup.
More frames per second (PAL = 25 instead of orginal cinematic 24 or NTSC 23.976) means that movies converted to PAL play faster and with higher pitch (original music and original speech).

[StuckMojo]

If it is a NTSC movie with 29.97 fps (which is standard) it is a slowdown.

The problem is,how MC handles this setting,because it doesn't know the source fps wich were used to create the subtitle.A .srt Subtitle for example has no fps information.
I also had to test different input fps settings with Subtitle Workshop until i found the right one.

You can only make two settings,i think.
1.Original timings (To revert back to original timings.)
2.Switch FPS     (To cycle through different FPS settings,always based on original timings to prevent wrong timings.)

You can't make a setting (Set to 25fps) for example,because MC can't know the original input fps!

[michi95]

If it is a NTSC movie with 29.97 fps (which is standard) it is a slowdown.

That is video and not traditional (photo-chemical) filmmaking.
IMO (my definition) that is not a movie.
Every (true) movie broadcasted with 29.97 fps is based on 24 fps sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-two_pull_down

So, in most cases you have a PAL speedup (24 -> 25 frames) - 4 percent faster than the original material.
A speedup !
Exactly what you have described in one of your own posts:

So a NTSC Movie (29,97fps)  with a lentgh 100:00min ->Runtime in PAL (25fps) is 95:54.

So the movie is in Europe 4:06 minutes earlier at the end.

29,97fps NTSC movies contain additional fields (-> frames) based on the three-two pull down process.
So practically 29,97fps NTSC movie or 23.976 fps or original 24 fps have no noticeable difference in runtime !

[StuckMojo]

I was first thinking the other way round.My fault.You're right.

Nevertheless, could we please stay on topic->Subtitles.
Otherwise we get into a Video,FPS,PAL,NTSC,Pulldown,Better,Worse..... discussion here.
That was not my goal in this thread.

[koshia]

I notice this as well.  Often, I end up just turning of the subtitles because it moves way too fast for the movie.  Top it off, i'm having stupid stutter issues with the subtitles turned on.  Why can't software just behave, darn it! .  I like the challenge -- i suppose.

[StuckMojo]

I created a poll for this feature.

So people,please vote for it,if you want this feature in MC!!!!

[InflatableMouse]

This is the problem with downloaded subtitles. A proper subtitle rip from an official dvd or bluray is not the problem, its that "the community" syncs subtitles for ntsc to other sources for which no subtitles are available. Anyone can upload subtitles, but not everyone understands how to sync and correct subtitles properly. There are many tools avaible for editing subtitles and some tools actually work very good, its just that not everyone who is uploading their own corrected subtitles know what they are doing. And this, if you ask me, is the biggest problem with subtitles.

The suggestion Matt made is actually a good one, but its application is very limited in that it will only work properly IF (big IF) the PAL version of a DVD or bluray is identical to the NTSC version with only that PAL/NTSC timing to account for. This feature will not compensate any other problems, like badly synced and/or corrected subtitles, which, as far as I'm concerned, is by far, the majority of subtitle problems.

I voted 'I don't care', because I think development time could go into correcting something that in most cases, cannot be corrected. The times I've had to correct a subtitle gradually more over time can be counted on one hand; the times I had to correct for sync errrors due to cut commercials or because it was synced on a theatrical version of a movie but uploaded for a DVD release ... uncountable.

My 2 cents for the bag .

[StuckMojo]

I used the subtitle plugin for Big Bang Theory for example.
Converted the times with Subtitle Workshop for one season manually.
And subtitles play all fine now.

Sure,it won't work with "all" kind of Movies and TV Shows, because of different reasons.(Bad Sync,Uncut,Cut,Director's Cut,etc....)

But it would be one step forward,i think.