Topic: 24//96 Kernal Streaming Problem (Read 4023 times)

jamesecox50 · « **on:** February 21, 2013, 09:50:24 pm »

Hi,

I need some help!

Here is my setup......

My HTPC is an ASUS AT3IONT-I running WinXP, I stream via JRiver 18(Kernal Streaming/HDMI Bitstream) to a Pioneer 1018AH sounded trough Paradigm Monitor 7 series 11s.

Problem is it wont play Hi-Def, it will if I switch to ASIO4All but it is noticably inferior to the Kernal Streaming driver from a sound quality standpoint, this has been verified by others so lets not go there.

So just curious what the limitations of the KS are.

Ed

kstuart · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2013, 10:52:55 pm »

Quote from: jamesecox50 on February 21, 2013, 09:50:24 pm

I stream via JRiver 18(Kernal Streaming/HDMI Bitstream) to a Pioneer 1018AH sounded trough Paradigm Monitor 7 series 11s.

Kernel Streaming and HDMI Bitstream are mutually exclusive, IIRC - the first is for connecting to a DAC within the PC, and the latter is for sending a digital stream to a receiver.

Which are you using ?

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2013, 10:58:43 pm »

Both, HDMI out of my PC to the reciever with HDMI bitstream selected, Sounds outstanding on 16/44. Regardless none of my HiDef plays with KS with or without HDMI Bitsstream selected.

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2013, 11:05:15 pm »

No DAC

InflatableMouse · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2013, 12:16:46 am »

Try Wassapi-event style.

More here: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2013, 10:44:58 am »

Note XP...... looks like another usless forum excuss for support ok for the easy stuff but no second layer support. Is kstuart someone who should know or does he troll around throwing out usless info.

kstuart · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2013, 10:59:44 am »

Quote from: jamesecox50 on February 22, 2013, 10:44:58 am

Note XP...... looks like another usless forum excuss for support ok for the easy stuff but no second layer support. Is kstuart someone who should know or does he troll around throwing out usless info.

Do some reading on Kernel Streaming and bitstreaming.

(A spell checker would help too.)

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2013, 11:30:00 am »

Here I'll simplify the question...(easier for tech) should KS support 24/96 on the above mentioned system? YES or NO real easy for you.

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2013, 12:01:08 pm »

I don't know.

If MC is working with kernel streaming, then MC has done its job. What kernel streaming accepts is not an MC question. You could do an Internet search to find out.

What the Pioneer device will accept is a question for Pioneer.

And ASIO4All is kernel streaming. It just has an ASIO interface on our side.

kstuart · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2013, 12:59:25 pm »

Quote from: jamesecox50 on February 22, 2013, 11:30:00 am

Here I'll simplify the question...(easier for tech) should KS support 24/96 on the above mentioned system? YES or NO real easy for you.

You say "it wont play Hi-Def".

Does it sit there and do nothing ?

Does it play the files as 16/44 ?

Does it pop up an error message ?, such as:

" You never give me any chocolate or flowers - and you expect me to play 24/96 ? No way ! "

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2013, 01:19:08 pm »

HIDef >= 24/96. These files will play with ASIO but not KS. I can find no spec on it at Microsoft or JRwiki. Tests have proved KS to sound better than ASIO so just cuious as an EE I have to understand. As for the Pioneer anything with an HDMI input can handle at least 24/96

kstuart · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2013, 02:35:12 pm »

Quote from: jamesecox50 on February 22, 2013, 01:19:08 pm

HIDef >= 24/96. These files will play with ASIO but not KS. I can find no spec on it at Microsoft or JRwiki. Tests have proved KS to sound better than ASIO so just cuious as an EE I have to understand. As for the Pioneer anything with an HDMI input can handle at least 24/96

Let's try again.

What does "will not play" mean ?

What is actually happening, second by second, when you click Play ?

Alex B · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2013, 02:49:39 pm »

Quote from: jamesecox50 on February 22, 2013, 01:19:08 pm

HIDef >= 24/96. These files will play with ASIO but not KS.

Do you have "Force WDM Driver To 16 Bit" checked in the ASIO4ALL control panel options?

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2013, 03:06:11 pm »

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2013, 03:07:42 pm »

Quote from: kstuart on February 22, 2013, 02:35:12 pm

Let's try again.

What does "will not play" mean ?

What is actually happening, second by second, when you click Play ?

Garbage hissing

Alex B · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2013, 03:15:57 pm »

Does it work if you set MC's output to 16-bit? (DSP Studio > Output Format > Bitdepth > 16-bit)

How about 32-bit?

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2013, 03:30:07 pm »

if I am set to KS no 24/96 files play regardless of DSP Studio settings. Countless hours experimenting.

kstuart · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:02:33 pm »

Quote from: jamesecox50 on February 22, 2013, 03:07:42 pm

Garbage hissing

So MC18 does not pop up a message ?

kstuart · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:04:15 pm »

AlexB - you have a PM.

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:21:09 pm »

no message, Im going to try foobar as it supports KS. According to mama google thr native Win drivers support higher bit depth. Im about ready to fire up Visual Studio in ordeer to learn more.

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2013, 05:04:58 pm »

Dosnt work in foobar either

kstuart · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2013, 05:32:41 pm »

James wrote: " Tests have proved KS to sound better than ASIO "

Your personal tests, or is that someone else's opinion you have read ?

Alex B · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2013, 05:50:12 pm »

jamesecox50,

24/96 Kernel Sreaming works for me on Windows XP SP3 using an old Asus/AMD Athlon XP 3200+ machine with a Terratec PCI sound card and 16/96 Kernel Streaming works using an Asus/AMD Phenom II machine with integrated audio (its XP audio device driver does not support 24-bit, but that is not a Kernel Streaming issue).

However, I have no experience of HDMI output on XP. I have only used the S/PDIF and analog outputs. If you have suitable cables, could you try S/PDIF and analog as a test?

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2013, 06:06:11 pm »

Thanks....my S/Pid only is 44/48 out, tried that. Seems like if it works with the ASIO it should work with KS. Time for a Schiit DAC anyhow. Point to note, when I turned on Bitstream(HDMI) my sound quality and detail improved...alot. Now it shows 44/16 in and 44/16 out, it was 44/32or64 out when MC was managing the format. What I have learned is the less digital manipulation that occurs the better. Thanks again all for the help!

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2013, 06:40:28 pm »

Quote from: kstuart on February 22, 2013, 05:32:41 pm

James wrote: " Tests have proved KS to sound better than ASIO "

Your personal tests, or is that someone else's opinion you have read ?

Mine/Ours Blind Test 100% on my given setup. I dont repeat someone elses BS.

kstuart · « **Reply #25 on:** February 22, 2013, 08:52:24 pm »

Quote from: jamesecox50 on February 22, 2013, 06:40:28 pm

Mine/Ours Blind Test 100% on my given setup. I dont repeat someone elses BS.

The difference between the KS & ASIO4ALL is much less than the difference between your current setup and a Schiit (or HRT) DAC.

Just FYI.

(And with those DACs, I would bet that the ASIO4ALL will sound better than KS.)

JimH · « **Reply #26 on:** February 22, 2013, 08:54:24 pm »

ASIO4All is Kernel Streaming.

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 22, 2013, 09:32:54 pm »

So why is there a verifiable sound diff?

kstuart · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2013, 09:37:49 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 22, 2013, 08:54:24 pm

ASIO4All is Kernel Streaming.

Jim - for USB DACs, the ASIO portion allows lower latency, which helps them to work better. (Nothing magical.)

JimH · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2013, 07:12:28 am »

The ASIO in ASIO4All is only a name for the PC side interface. It is a wrapper around Kernel Streaming, so that the device only sees Kernel Streaming. It isn't ASIO. Try an Internet Search for more about it.

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2013, 10:09:07 am »

Why is the outbound bitdepth different for each of these then? (MC has is hands in the pot on ASIO) Your surely not suggesting the audio cant be different are you?

kstuart · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2013, 02:06:10 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 23, 2013, 07:12:28 am

The ASIO in ASIO4All is only a name for the PC side interface. It is a wrapper around Kernel Streaming, so that the device only sees Kernel Streaming. It isn't ASIO. Try an Internet Search for more about it.

The wrapper in ASIO4ALL is designed to interface with ASIO. The MC18 ASIO driver is designed to interface with ASIO.

This is the difference.

The ASIO standard allows lower latency.

USB DACs tend to have the opposite requirements of other DACs (smaller software buffers rather than larger), as explained by a DAC designer:
"..it may have too large of buffer and this is causing the feedback values to be ignored by the host for too long. Keep in mind that 44k1 and its increments have a more complex feedback mechanism as the sample rate causes data packets of varying sizes as the rate is non integer to the data packets frame rate (1 kHz). The small hardware buffer is more challenged as the sample rate increases and if the host is late in adjusting its data payload then over/under runs become possible (this is almost certainly what you are hearing). For a simplex operation such as a playback only system, there is no need to have buffers of any size ..."

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2013, 02:11:51 pm »

Quote from: kstuart on February 23, 2013, 02:06:10 pm

The wrapper in ASIO4ALL is designed to interface with ASIO. The MC18 ASIO driver is designed to interface with ASIO.

There is no MC ASIO driver. MC can use an ASIO driver supplied by the audio device maker, or in this case, the ASIO4All driver, but as I said, ASIO4All IS Kernel Streaming. The device driver in this case is Kernel Streaming, not ASIO.

kstuart · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2013, 03:02:44 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 23, 2013, 02:11:51 pm

There is no MC ASIO driver. MC can use an ASIO driver supplied by the audio device maker, or in this case, the ASIO4All driver, but as I said, ASIO4All IS Kernel Streaming. The device driver in this case is Kernel Streaming, not ASIO.

I was referring to MC's ASIO output interface.

Again, to say that "ASIO4ALL IS Kernel Streaming" is an oversimplification.

Is a Porsche 914 a "Volkswagen"? It used a VW engine, but was designed by Porsche and sold by Porsche dealers.

ASIO4ALL may have a "kernel streaming engine", but it conforms to the ASIO standard, and uses components of the ASIO specification.

As I explained in the quote, those minor details can cause things to work differently.

No hocus pocus, but actual technical differences.

jamesecox50 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2013, 05:37:50 pm »

Thank you, the picture is getting clearer....but still no 24/96 with KS. Downloaded Microsofts Kernal Stream sample (VC++) and messed with it to try to find the answer......took a bad beating my 7 brain cells overloaded

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Author Topic: 24//96 Kernal Streaming Problem (Read 4023 times)