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[pschelbert]

Highres files do not play if the sample-rate from one file to the next is changing.

If I play a file with 96kHz sample-rate, the next file with 192kHz, then its not playing. I see at the audio-interface still is set to the sample-rate of 96kHz.

How do audiophiles get around this, so that the files sample-rate is kept (no resampling of JRiver)

If I let JRiver resample, i.e. if I set in "DSP settings output Format" the "output sample-rate" to fix=96kHz then it works
If I set "output sample-rate" to "no change" it does not play

Peter

[mwillems]

Highres files do not play if the sample-rate from one file to the next is changing.

If I play a file with 96kHz sample-rate, the next file with 192kHz, then its not playing. I see at the audio-interface still is set to the sample-rate of 96kHz.

How do audiophiles get around this, so that the files sample-rate is kept (no resampling of JRiver)

If I let JRiver resample, i.e. if I set in "DSP settings output Format" the "output sample-rate" to fix=96kHz then it works
If I set "output sample-rate" to "no change" it does not play

Peter

What soundcard/DAC are you using?  If it has an ASIO driver, ASIO will normally let you switch sample rates automatically.  Some sound cards/DACs do not support automatic sample rate switching in any other output mode. 

[HiFiTubes]

Using WASAPI [Event Mode] my USB DAC switches between sample rates.

One zone is set to Upsample, and another zone I use when I want to listen to native sample rate. Either one works flawlessly.

As Peter said, it's your sound card/DAC. Is is capable of 192kHz? Auto-switching?

[pschelbert]

Hi
I use ASIO drivers.

Soundcards: RME Fireface UFX and Motu828mk3hybrid, both on USB (external soundcards)
I updated FW and drivers of the both cards
I run on Win7 64-Bit

Both soundcards support up to 192kHz.

With both soundcards, automatic switching does not work.

If I shut down JRiver and restart, then the soundcards switch to the previous files sample-rate...
Looks like JRiver is blocking the switching itself in my case. However, as you report here, it works in two cases.

hm...I am just wondering what prevents the switching.

What operating system are you using?

Peter

[rayooo]

Probably no help..but just for reference:

MC on Win7 64, using w4s DAC-2, Asynchronous USB, WASAPI-Event.

DSP disabled in MC, have combination of everything from 16/44.1 up to 24/192 audio media in FLAC and WAV.
MC passes these along untouched to DAC-2, which displays and confirms incoming data rate on it's display.

Never had any problem whatsoever with this setup.

[pschelbert]

Hi

thanks for the tip.

I just tried and disabled DSP, unticked all in "DSP &output format"

I closed an opened JRiver, still the same strange behaviour. I does not play the next file if the next file has a different sample-rate then the previous.
Always when I am closing JRiver , the sample-rate changes to what I tried to play.

I am using ASIO.

I actually tried WASAPI-Event before, but with DSP on. May be I have to try WASAPI-Event with DSP off.
I will do that.

Peter

[pschelbert]

Hi rayooo

I tried in WASAPI-Event mode, all DSP off.

It works in stereo-mode, its switching the rates!

If I then enable in "DSP&output Format" 5.1 channel, its not working anymore.
An error-box is popping up saying: 24bit 6ch is not working, this format would work: 24bit 2ch, would you like to change..

You are using stereo-mode or multichannel?

Peter

[kstuart]

Your card is only a stereo card.

You want "convert to 5.1" only if you are sending to a home theater audio-video receiver that accepts multi-channel digital streams.

[mojave]

Your card is only a stereo card.

You want "convert to 5.1" only if you are sending to a home theater audio-video receiver that accepts multi-channel digital streams.

? His RME is 12 channels and I think the Motu is 10 channels.

[kstuart]

? His RME is 12 channels and I think the Motu is 10 channels.

You're right, it's Pro rack-mount gear.

And MC18 seems to not really recognize what it is...

[rayooo]

Hi rayooo

I tried in WASAPI-Event mode, all DSP off.

It works in stereo-mode, its switching the rates!

If I then enable in "DSP&output Format" 5.1 channel, its not working anymore.
An error-box is popping up saying: 24bit 6ch is not working, this format would work: 24bit 2ch, would you like to change..

You are using stereo-mode or multichannel?

Peter

Ah, I'm using Stereo only...so, appears MC for whatever reason identifies (or more accurately incorrectly identifies) the support for the 5.1 channel format.
I'm totally at a loss as I'm just running stereo.

[pschelbert]

Hi

yes the
-Motu828mk3hybrid: out= 12 analog, 2xTOS, 2xADAT at 192kHz (otherwise 30 out)
-RME Fireface UFX: out=12 analog, 2xAES, 2xADAT at 192kHz (otherwise 30 out, i.e. at 44,1, 48kHz)

both audio-interfaces work otherwise correct with MC18. The only problem is that automatic switching of sample-rate.

With ASIO drivers, I can run both with 12 channels at 192kHz. Sample-rate switching does not work.

Strangely with WASAPI-Event, I cannot get more than stereo with the same setup. Sample-rate switching works in stereo!

Its definitely a problem somewhere in software or configuration of the software: Win7, Drivers of audio-interfaces (ASIO?), MC18 or a combination of them...

If I am running with ASIO drivers, the rate changes after I shut down MC18. It switches to the previous files sample-rate. This means, MC18 somehow is blocking the switching, but sends the switching command to the audio-interface. As soon as MC18 is shut down, then the blocking is released and the previously sent command switches the audio-interface.

To understand whats happening, MC programmers may give a hint here...

Peter

[Jong]

Possibly a buffer limitation. Maybe you could reduce your buffer from 100ms default to 25ms or 10ms.

Edit: talking here about getting multi-channel WASAPI Event Style working, not ASIO.

[Vocalpoint]

Its definitely a problem somewhere in software or configuration of the software: Win7, Drivers of audio-interfaces (ASIO?), MC18 or a combination of them...

This was an issue that Matt and I and the folks at RME worked on last year within MC 17. I was experiencing the exact same issue with my RME Multiface II with ASIO as the audio pipeline. MC would freeze hard when switching sample rates. At the end of all the testing etc last year - Matt and dev team seems to have fixed what ailed my particular setup....but I should really give this a go now with MC 18 to see if I experience the same...will report back.

Cheers!

VP

[pschelbert]

Hi Vocalpoint

great, we are getting closer...

Should I try with MC17? Just to see if it works with MC17?

May it be, that the change you made to MC17 didn't make it to MC18?

By the way, I have the same issue ith RME and Motu, looks to be independent of HW. I use both with ASIO and on USB.

Peter

[mojave]

I recently had an issue with sample rate switching on my pro audio Steinberg MR816x. It would switch from a lower sample rate to a higher sample rate, but not from 96 or 88.2 to 48 or 44.1. I increased my ASIO driver buffers and that took care of the issue.

However, I didn't have the issue until recently and I've seen several other threads lately about ASIO issues. I'm wondering if a recent change in JRiver is causing the issues.

[JimH]

Vocalpoint is another user, like you.  He isn't a JRiver staff person.

[MrC]

Vocalpoint is another user, like you.  He isn't a JRiver staff person.

Maybe the time is right for you folks to install one of the SMF mods to rebadge JRiver staff members as JRiver Staff, rather than the ubiquitous and silly "Citizen of the Universe" badging defaults.

[JimH]

Maybe the time is right for you folks to install one of the SMF mods to rebadge JRiver staff members as JRiver Staff, rather than the ubiquitous and silly "Citizen of the Universe" badging defaults.

Great.  Then everyone would expect us to know all the answers.

[pschelbert]

Hi

back to ASIO drivers.

I tried in "output mode settings" the "buffering". Buffering was in the middle initially. In position "max", no change of the sample-rate issue.

It does not help to tick or untick "use large hardware buffers"

Peter

[mojave]

Output Mode Settings in JRiver have nothing to do with your ASIO driver. When you are in the Output Mode Settings you can click "Open Driver Control Panel" and this will usually, but not always, open the control panel for your ASIO driver. This is where you need to change the buffers. The buffer settings are usually in either milliseconds (latency) or sample size (buffer size). Longer latency or larger buffer size can lead to more stability.

[Ninouchka]

Setup your motu Audio console as wave audio(uncheck both windows audio options to get a multichannel motu analog under
windows playback devices, instead of the four stereo ones) and choose the same in MC 18, wave audio and motu analog.
I have nearly the same hardware as you, a motu 828mk3 hybrid and a Steinberg MR816X which are
going via an analog patchbay to my Yamaha RX3010 avantage AV receiver 7.1 analog inputs.
My motu switches between different HiRes files 192, 96, 44.1, 24bit without problem, only with the wave audio and asio drivers.
Latest firmware and drivers from motu website.

[Vocalpoint]

Vocalpoint is another user, like you.  He isn't a JRiver staff person.

I can dream tho...right?

VP

[Jong]

Hi

back to ASIO drivers.

I tried in "output mode settings" the "buffering". Buffering was in the middle initially. In position "max", no change of the sample-rate issue.

It does not help to tick or untick "use large hardware buffers"

Peter

Did you try WASAPI with reduced buffer?

[pschelbert]

Setup your motu Audio console as wave audio(uncheck both windows audio options to get a multichannel motu analog under
windows playback devices, instead of the four stereo ones)

I just wanted to do the above.

I cannot find the right menue I think.

in Win7, 64bit:
I looked under "control panel" " audio devices" "sound"

in the window "sound" I see Playback, Recording, Sound, Communications

Then under playback I see first the Via-Audio (built in Motherboard Sound): Speakers, SPDIF, HDMI

Then the:
Motu Analog1-2
Motu Analog 3-4
Motu etc....

You say here you can uncheck something to get one Multichannel Motu? I think I am looking at the wrong place.

In MC18 I see the WaveOut (in the same tab as ASIO is)

Peter

[pschelbert]

Hi Mojave

I tried now to set the Motu Buffer (in Motu Console) to Samples Per Buffer=2048 and 4096, did not help.

Peter

[pschelbert]

Setup your motu Audio console as wave audio(uncheck both windows audio options to get a multichannel motu analog under
windows playback devices, instead of the four stereo ones)

I got it, in MotuAudioConsole I unchecked the two Windows checkboxes.

Then in JRiver MC18 "Motu analog Waveout fo"
I can then only select either analog, SPDIF or ADAT, not all together.
With that i am loosing channels

Yes, indeed the files with different rates are playing. The sample-rate of the Motu stays at the rate I have set in MotuAudioConsole.
I fear the files are not fed through, but resampled..

Peter

[pschelbert]

This was an issue that Matt and I and the folks at RME worked on last year within MC 17. I was experiencing the exact same issue with my RME Multiface II with ASIO as the audio pipeline. MC would freeze hard when switching sample rates. At the end of all the testing etc last year - Matt and dev team seems to have fixed what ailed my particular setup....but I should really give this a go now with MC 18 to see if I experience the same...will report back.

Hi

yes, this issue was already known in MC17 as "Vocalpoint" mentions
The Thread is here.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=70316.0

Now it should be easier to solve it.
MC Team: how was it solved in MC17?

Peter

[pschelbert]

MC18 not yet working for HighRes files. My trial period is soon over (now 28 days).

It is possible to force the sample-rate change by double-klicking the "play button" (makes "stop"), then wait a moment and then klick "play-button".
This forces a sample-rate change.

Not really what I want.
Its clear now, MC18 is blocking the sample rate.
MC18-Team: can you fix this?

Peter

Hi

yes, this issue was already known in MC17 as "Vocalpoint" mentions
The Thread is here.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=70316.0

Now it should be easier to solve it.
MC Team: how was it solved in MC17?

Peter

[JimH]

When MC is playing to a DAC, the DAC usually specifies what formats can be played.

[pschelbert]

Yes, the DAC can do 44.1, 48, 88, 96, 176, 192kHz.
 
If I make the procedure of hard-stop and play, then the switch of sample-rate happens.
If I close JRiver MC18 and restart it works (switch of sample rate happens).
For whatever reason JRiver does not allow the DAC to switch.

Obviously, if a new file starts playing, the sample-rate change is sent to the DAC, but JRiver is blocking the change.
Unblocking obviously by double-klicking "stop" or by closing JRiver..

So there a change in the software of JRiver has to be done, now I am sure.

DAC is Motu828mk3hybrid and RME Fireface UFX, with both same problem.
Driver is: ASIO
Operating System: Win7 64-bit


Peter

[pschelbert]

I updated to MC18.0.146, but same issue.
I expected this as in the list of changes this issue did not show up, just to be on the safe side though..

Peter

[pschelbert]

to MC-Team:

1) would it help to turn logging on?
And to send the log afterwards?

2) makes it sense to send "system info"?

Peter

[JimH]

Yes, the DAC can do 44.1, 48, 88, 96, 176, 192kHz.
 
If I make the procedure of hard-stop and play, then the switch of sample-rate happens.
If I close JRiver MC18 and restart it works (switch of sample rate happens).
For whatever reason JRiver does not allow the DAC to switch.

Obviously, if a new file starts playing, the sample-rate change is sent to the DAC, but JRiver is blocking the change.
Unblocking obviously by double-klicking "stop" or by closing JRiver..

So there a change in the software of JRiver has to be done, now I am sure.

You could use MC's DSP Studio/Output Settings to resample everything to whatever the device does accept.

You could use MC's Output Format (in DSP Studio) to resample everything to the highest bitrate that the device supports reliably.
DAC is Motu828mk3hybrid and RME Fireface UFX, with both same problem.
Driver is: ASIO
Operating System: Win7 64-bit

The ASIO driver should be one supplied by the manufacturer, and it should be set according to their instructions.  Some drivers have limits depending on the connection type.

I know you think this is an MC problem.  I don't think so.

[Vocalpoint]

The ASIO driver should be one supplied by the manufacturer, and it should be set according to their instructions.  Some drivers have limits depending on the connection type.I know you think this is an MC problem.  I don't think so.

Agree with Jim on this one. It's the RME drivers that are delivering the goods here and since their drivers are specifically designed for pro audio recording - their drivers may not react like other interfaces out there.

I also have never seen any interface handle 192khz over Windows USB - I thought the upper limit of the USB protocol on WIndows was 96khz or similar  (but I am happy to be wrong on this).

VP

[rayooo]

Most newer DACs do support 192/24 and even higher over Async USB in Windows. It does however require a driver installation.
I believe MAC and Linux include the necessary driver(s) for Async USB.

I've used it with both W4S DAC-2, and Now Esoteric D-07X, both support Async USB @ native 192/24 in Win7, or 8 for that matter.. it works wonderfully.

[pschelbert]

Hi

Status of what I know now:

1) 192kHz USB: this works actually flawless with Motu and RME over USB and ASIO. All rates work, there is no issue

2) ASIO: I tried other drivers, WASAPI, WASAPI-EVENT. With other drivers it does also not switch.

3) Why I am thinking a its an issue in MC18, because principally MC18 with these DACS and USB, ASIO, all rates work.
The problem is changing the  sample-rate from one track to another. This does not work.
It must be something like MC18 is not resetting or releasing the interface so that the sample-rate change cannot happen.
-If I close MC18, then the switch happens (to the sample rate of the next track), this means MC18 sends the command of a sample-rate change. Change is somehow blocked by MC18.
-If I double klick "stop", then after a while, sample-rate changes. I can klick "play" then

So the mechanism is working, something in MC18 is just locking the rate if a new track requires a different sample-rate.

If MC18 logging helps, I can do it

Peter

[pschelbert]

to ease debugging, I just runned two times MC18:

each run with two files:
aria96.flac=96kHz, 24bit
aria192.flac=192kHz,24bit

1.run)
 playing 96kHz (aria96.flac), then let it play to the next file aria192.flac.
What happens: 96kHz is playing. MC18 jumps after this to the next track i.e. aria192.flac. It does not play and in the file-progress-bar it does not advance.
Motu828mk3hybrid shows always a sample-rate of 96kHz (LED display on Motu)

2.run)
playing 96kHz (aria96.flac), then let it play to the next file aria192.flac. Now klicking "stop", waiting a moment.
Motu828mk3hybrid changes sample-rate (LED on Motu). After a moment klicking "play" and the aria192.flac plays.

I attach the two logs.
1.run) I see in the log that MC18 issues a sample-rate change. A response form ASIO is okay (value zero). However the sample-rate did not change at Motu.

2.run) Same as above. If stop then play is applied, MC18 is resetting various things, ASIO, buffers etc (I looked at the log-file). Then it works. There is a fundamental difference between playing from one track to another and play-stop-play.
If MC18 would do the same for each track as play-stop-play, then It would be solved.

Strange at least why setting sample-rate by MC18, MC18 get a reply "successful" in the log file, when at the hardware the sample-rate was not changed..Why this is so, I have no idea.

enclosed the log file for run1, run2

Peter

[Matt]

The logs show the ASIO plugin succeeding in both cases.

So it's a mystery why it's not playing.

Sometimes an ASIO driver issues a reset (kAsioResetRequest), but MC will accept that and restarts playback.  I don't see these resets in the log.

I think we need help from MOTU.  I'd be happy to work with them if you have contact information.  I'm matt at jriver dot com.

Thanks.

[pschelbert]

Thanks Matt.

I will do it with RME Fireface to see, if with the new version of MC18 **146 I get the same issue.
With the older version **1.38 It was equal.

As soon as I am ready, I let you know.

Yes I have a Motu support contact, let you know.

Peter

[pschelbert]

Hi

surprise surprise, with the RME it works.
I just switched off Motu and connected RME (via USB).
Change in MC18: only "output mode settings" to "ASIO Fireface USB"

REM Fireface UFX (FW 1.51, Totalmix 0.989), USB, ASIO

Version: MC18.00.146
I runned the same as above. It switches sample rates for and back without any intervention, great!

For reference here the run1_RME (same flac-files as with Motu)
run2 was not necessary as the switching just works.

Peter