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[EricTheBlue]

All true with regard to watching content recorded on a host that can be viewed by another one on the network via WMC, but I was mainly interested in the recording storage location.  Unless I missed something with WMC recording setup, it forced me to store recordings on the localhost.  I was just wondering if MC had the same restriction.

[gtgray]

In my attempts to find why SD Cable works well but HD Cable is unwatchable I updated the Intel 1 gb nic in the Client and the 1 gb Realtek nic in the Host. This appears to have had no impact SD has quite good playback and HD breakups badly as before WMC plays both perfectly on Client and Host. I also made sure the Host was not playing video while trying to get JR MC to play HD Cable. In WMC you can have 3 tuners actually more with HD Homeruns either showing Live TV or recording and it will have no impact on the Clients playback performance. In the past I have actually benn able to playback HD Cable without problem in WMC on a Notebook used as a Client through 802.11n without issue. I have had a lot of tuners running on different devices including WMC extenders, Client PCs without any indication of network saturation. So while I did update nic drivers to the latest I have no reason to believe I have a network bottleneck.

[greynolds]

All true with regard to watching content recorded on a host that can be viewed by another one on the network via WMC, but I was mainly interested in the recording storage location.  Unless I missed something with WMC recording setup, it forced me to store recordings on the localhost.  I was just wondering if MC had the same restriction.

WMC won't let you select a UNC path to record to, so you can't easily record to a network drive, but some people have found that mounting a network path to a drive letter can work in certain circumstances.  But you can definitely move the files around after the recording has finished.  The storage location limitations in WMC have nothing to do with DRM.  I believe they just designed it this way out of fear that allowing selection of a network drive might cause performance issues or maybe they just weren't thinking .  It's just one of the weird quirks of WMC that one either gets use to or finds a workaround for.

My solution has been to put the WMC box in a big Norco rack mount chassis in the basement were it doesn't need to be silent and use a combination of HDMI extenders through an HDMI matrix switch and WMC extenders so I can watch TV on any TV in the house and can also get access to the PC's in the basement rack from any TV in the house (I'm also using a KVM matrix switch and KVM extenders to get mouse and keyboard access to the PC's in the basement from any TV in the house).

[babgvant]

WMC won't let you select a UNC path to record to, so you can't easily record to a network drive, but some people have found that mounting a network path to a drive letter can work in certain circumstances.  But you can definitely move the files around after the recording has finished.  The storage location limitations in WMC have nothing to do with DRM.  I believe they just designed it this way out of fear that allowing selection of a network drive might cause performance issues or maybe they just weren't thinking .  It's just one of the weird quirks of WMC that one either gets use to or finds a workaround for.

It's a UI + service credential constraint (the recording service runs as Network Service). If you know what you're doing you can configure WMC to record to a UNC, or if you're using modern OS, leverage iSCSI.

That said, recording to a network location introduces unnecessary risk into the mix. 

[Yaobing]

Yes, our support is now limited to copy free content.  Here is the way Media Server works.  The server will do all the recordings.  You can schedule recordings from any clients (as long as you turned on the option on the server to allow clients make changes).  The clients can access the recordings and play them.  The clients can also play live TV, using the tuners that are accessed on the server (the server serving the video stream to the clients).

If you prefer not using the client-server method and want to use each computer as stand-alone machine, then the way to solve the problem of simultaneous access to the same tuner is to add configuration on each computer to specify which tuner is disabled and which tuner is enabled.  Isn't this sort of the way WMC does it?

[EricTheBlue]

Yaobing,

I think what you're describing for MC server-client TV would work for me, and I'd like to give it a try but I have some questions about multiple MC clients simultaneously accessing a pool of eight Ceton tuners on the server.  How would the UI look from the client's perspective?  For example, if a client user selects a channel to watch via his/her local theaterview TV grid and records another simultaneously, the channel selected for live view and the other will record on the server in the background correct?  If so, what happens when other clients want to watch TV simultaneously?  Will the server be aware that two tuners are in use and allocate the remaining ones for clients on demand?  If yes, I think this functions much like Silicont Dust network tuners currently do, as they assign tuners on demand to WMC clients as required (as opposed to Ceton network tuners that are statically assigned per client).  What would happen if all tuners were in use and a client tries to access another tuner?

Final question:  With this MC network setup (all tuners on server, all recordings saved to the same server), is any tuner management required by clients or is tuner allocation handled by the server in the background?   

[Yaobing]

Tuners are allocated by the server.

A client has a copy of server's library and thus will look just like the server.  There is a small difference when playback is for live TV, in that the client only plays a file that is temporarily saved on the server, instead of playing from the tuner.

On the client, the user selects a program to record.  The server's TV recording library is updated, so the server will start recording when it is time.  The client copy of the library will be updated to reflect the addition of the new recording.  For live TV playback, the client sends the request to the server.  The server will use the tuners most economically, i.e. if a tuner is already being used to play the same channel, the server will just tag onto that tuner and serve the stream the the new client.  If no tuner is currently playing that given channel, then the server will start a new tuner on that channel.  If all tuners are in use for other channels (for recording, for serving clients, or for playing live on the server itself), the new client will not be able to play and get an error message.

[gtgray]

So Yao,

Any ideas on steps I might take to get the HD streams running without constant pixelization and breakup of both audio and video?

[JimH]

Yaobing said he can duplicate the problem.  We should be able to fix it soon.

[JimH]

In MC18, I can use the tuners on different computers (after enabling DLNA options).  There are a couple of problems. ...

1.  MC is not sorting the four tuners even if I move them up or down in the device list.

This was fixed in 18.0.149, available here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=79144.0

[BartMan01]

All true with regard to watching content recorded on a host that can be viewed by another one on the network via WMC, but I was mainly interested in the recording storage location.  Unless I missed something with WMC recording setup, it forced me to store recordings on the localhost.  I was just wondering if MC had the same restriction.

I let WMC record to the local drive for performance reasons. I then move shows off to a 2TB internal drive or off to a network drive if space starts to get below 50% on the 1TB recording drive.  WMC has no problems playing back the network located items.  Glad to see the beginnings of CableCard support in MC, especially given the dwindling interest from MS to do the same.  Really not useful to me without protected content support - but nice to see the progress.

[JimH]

So Yao,

Any ideas on steps I might take to get the HD streams running without constant pixelization and breakup of both audio and video?

This should be fixed in build 153:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=79256.0

[gtgray]

This should be fixed in build 153:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=79256.0

It is greatly improved as far as pixelization is concerned but the stream is too slow or there are not enough buffers as after a few seconds the audio falls behind and then it varies between a slide show and a stutter fest. As I said it is much improved but only half way there. It still unusable. I have also tried every comebination of RO/HQ, hardware acceleration on and of, videoclock on and off. You can pause the video and restart and again for a few seconds video and audio will be in sync and that audio lags and then it becomes a stutter fest. It is slightly better (not much) on 720P.

[Yaobing]

Confirmed.  I am looking into it.

[gtgray]

Confirmed.  I am looking into it.

I guess no more progress was made on Ceton HD streaming? At least not in time to make the 154 release

[Yaobing]

I guess no more progress was made on Ceton HD streaming? At least not in time to make the 154 release

I am still working on it.

[cebalaw]

I just saw this post and made an attempt to configure my Ceton tuner. I was eventually able to set it up, and was happy to see it work, but either I haven't configured it properly, or it just won't work for my setup.

I have 4 TVs each with their own HTPC. PC 1 has a Ceton USB tuner connected to it, and currently uses all 4 tuners for my recording (through WMC). This is, also, the PC I run my Media Server on, as J River is much better at handling my DVDs, BluRays, Music, and Pictures than WMC. A second PC, has a second Ceton tuner which has 1 of its tuners configured to that PC, and the other three networked to my 2 other PCs using Ceton Network Tuners. The setup has worked great for the last year, with some minor glitches on the server when JRiver and WMC run at the same time, but overall it works.

I setup the TV on the Media Server and was able to watch TV; I, also, was able to watch it on a client. The video, however, stuttered quite a bit, and took a good 5-10 seconds to change the channel. It also caused JRiver to crash twice. Compared to WMC, this is not acceptable. I, also, admit liking the RecordedTV HD plugin for WMC better for TV management than JRiver.

I would like one media player to handle all my needs and think this is a great start to incorporate the Ceton tuners (by far the best I have used), but either would like assistance in troubleshooting my issues, or see some improvements to its stability and responsivenes.

[JimH]

There is a known problem in the HD playback.  It will be fixed in the next build.  Thanks for your patience.

[JimH]

Here's the build that should fix the HD problem:
http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/channels/v18/latest/MediaCenter180156.exe

[gtgray]

Here's the build that should fix the HD problem:
http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/channels/v18/latest/MediaCenter180156.exe

This 18.0156 build works well with the Ceton in HD now, thank you so much... now if I can bring up the operation and responsiveness of the Remote:

I have disabled WMC, so no one should pull that excuse on me anymore. With SD I can use the channel up and down button to change channels to another SD Channel or I can go into the OSD and change to an SD Channel but not to an HD Channel. From an HD Channel neither the channel up/down or the OSD will change channels. In the OSD the numbers change and you can then hit enter but unlike in an SD Channel nothing happens.

Also why can't I type in a channel number in the guide or in Theater View and go to that channel? This is the way it should work.

[JimH]

I think that the last time we talked about this, it turned out that you had not let MC disable WMC.  Please start a thread on this problem after you've tried that.

It's great news that the Ceton is working.  Thanks very much for your patience and help.

[Yaobing]

This 18.0156 build works well with the Ceton in HD now, thank you so much... now if I can bring up the operation and responsiveness of the Remote:

I have disabled WMC, so no one should pull that excuse on me anymore. With SD I can use the channel up and down button to change channels to another SD Channel or I can go into the OSD and change to an SD Channel but not to an HD Channel. From an HD Channel neither the channel up/down or the OSD will change channels. In the OSD the numbers change and you can then hit enter but unlike in an SD Channel nothing happens.

Also why can't I type in a channel number in the guide or in Theater View and go to that channel? This is the way it should work.

Channel changing for Ceton is known to be not working, regardless of whether you use remote or not, and regardless of whether it is SD channel or HD channel.  I am still working on it.

[gtgray]

I think that the last time we talked about this, it turned out that you had not let MC disable WMC.  Please start a thread on this problem after you've tried that.

It's great news that the Ceton is working.  Thanks very much for your patience and help.

Jim, I have disabled WMC it was stated so in the post above... I will start a new thread.. Just curious don't you use MC 18 for Live TV yourself?

[JimH]

I use the remote and MC's TV a lot.  I don't see the problem you describe.

[EricTheBlue]

John is ordering the USB model and will test it next week.

Does the Ceton USB tuner work with MC?

[Yaobing]

Does the Ceton USB tuner work with MC?

It works.

[Yaobing]

The on-the-fly channel changing now works.  Please try the latest build available on this board.

[EricTheBlue]

The on-the-fly channel changing now works.  Please try the latest build available on this board.

Thanks for the reply and well done on channel changing Yaobing.  MC is close to, if not already, the standard for all Media Center software in terms of features and performance.

[gtgray]

I now have channel changing on the fly with the remote. Hey the remote up and down channel buttons are working with this build. I also can enter a channel number from the remote which did not work before. Not really smooth but definitely getting there.

ROHQ looks very nice still not realy smooth changing channels... but it works.. a lot of stuttering during changes. So a little more optimization required. I have a more robust GPU enroute. Going from a GTS 450 to a Radeon HD 7790. I am also getting some pops and some pixeliaztion. Not seeing any of those issue with the another i3 Sandy Brige with an HD 7770.

So congrats we are definitely moving in the right direction. Good work!

[JimH]

Good news.  Thanks.

[JimH]

18.0.166 is now available.  It has some fixes and improvements for TV.

[douglaskeene]

Howdy
I have a Ceton InfiniTV tuner installed and it works under WMC, although it crashes with invalid driver messages frequently, despite having most recent drivers. JRiver does not SEE the InfinitTV card in the setup, although I have version 170 installed. Any suggestions? I have rebooted, etc., nothing allows JRiver to see this card...
Doug

[JimH]

This is Ceton InfiniTV specific support.  We only tested Ceton InfiniTV 4 PCIe device, but InfiniTV 4 USB should also work.

The device comes with setup instructions for Windows Media Center.  Make sure you have already done that, especially CableCARD pairing.

MC is a little slow to discover the device, along with other DLNA devices.  After you start MC, it may be a few minutes before the device is available.

Once the device has been discovered, you will see its four tuners under Devices in the Television Options window.  Do not click Configure button though, because there is nothing to configure at this time.

You can scan for channels.  The first wizard page will contain check box "Scan for CableCARD channels".  It uses EPG data to load channels, so it may find more channels than your cable company allows.  You can delete them after the scan finishes.

If you have not previously turned on DLNA option in MC, you should turn it on.  Go to Tools > Options, and select Media Network.  Check the checkbox "Use Media Network to share this library and enable DLNA", and restart MC.

Other operations are just like other types of TV tuners.

[douglaskeene]

But I DONT SEE the ceton card as an option to configure anything. Why?
Doug

[Yaobing]

But I DONT SEE the ceton card as an option to configure anything. Why?
Doug

Make sure you turn on DLNA network sharing.  Then you need to wait a couple of minutes after MC start up because it takes some time for MC to discover the network devices.

After waiting  a short while you should see the devices under Tools > Options > Television, in the list of Devices.

[gtgray]

Each release seems to be better and better with the Ceton. Still not near as stable as WMC. Last night I got a MadVR exception error and a lockup changing channels. But it is very much on the right track. I also threw additional GPU horsepower at it, so we shall see.  I am still waiting for the EPG to center on the now playing or last played channel.

Here is my broken record comment, use the WMC guide for a bit.  Ddo some channel change with and without the guide and then go back to the guide. Make big jumps, see how a guide should work  

[douglaskeene]

Is DLNA something turned on through MediaCenter or Windows?

[JimH]

DLNA is part of MC's Media Network feature set.  You could read about it on our wiki.

[greynolds]

Here is my broken record comment, use the WMC guide for bit do some channel change with and without the guide and the go back to guide. Make big jumps, see how a guide should work 

In addition, spend some quality time looking at the various ways recordings can be setup in WMC, both via the guide and via the "Add Recording" option when in the list of recorded shows.  Though I'd change how the UI works in a few cases, WMC offers pretty powerful / flexible recording capabilities.  ALL of this really needs to be able to work from TheaterView for MC to be a viable replacement for WMC's TV capabilities.  JRiver has a pretty good start and enhancing the recording functionality probably wouldn't take a ton of work - the hardest parts would probably be the enhancements that would be needed in the guide data (to include actors and other fields so that some of the recording capabilities, such as recording based on an actor name, could be implemented) and the work that would need to be done to get all the functionality accessible from TheaterView.

[gtgray]

There is an issue that I have no way around. 

Unless otherwise specified I am reporting on MC 18:

My living room HTPC, my main TV, is also the physical host for my Ceton Card. I have 3 tuners assigned to it.
My Workstation has 1 Ceton tuner assigned to it.

The living room TV is on most of the day playing CNNHD and later on other Live TV Programming. If I try to launch a Cablecard program, usually CNNHD on the Workstation while the Living Room box is playing it will freeze playback on the HTPC in the Living Room getting me lots of angry comments from family in that room.

The reverse is true. If am running Ceton live TV playback on the Workstation and someone tunes to a CableCard station on the HTPC it freezes the workstation. You can have ATSC running somewhere else and lauch CableCard content without a problem. So it seems that Ceton is not able to do simultaneous network sessions as in WMC.

Last night I had to reboot the HTPC in the Living Room to free up the tuners after one of the events even though I had already shut down the Workstation. That was ugly. It is no fun standing in the front room in front of a 92 inch screen doing a reboot, verifying in WMC that tuners are seen, then closing WMC, going to MC, than to Theater View, then to EPG, then to CNNHD.. Naturally there was some breaking news at the time.

I have 18.0.175 on the living roon HTPC and I was experimenting with the crazy newest version on the Workstation... but this issue has existed since Ceton support was initiated and has nothing to do with the audio changes in the latest version.

Also almost as an aside... Ceton performance is still much more iffy than in WMC. There is either a timing issue or more overhead in MC or something. Many times I will get pixelization with the Ceton to the point it is unwatchable and I close MC and go straight to WMC where it plays perfectly or in the worst case there might be infrequent pixelization. So performance is still not on parity for the Ceton between WMC and MC. With WMC I know from experience I can assign Ceton Tuners to 4 different PCs and all tuners work fine and you are totally unaware of tuners use at other machines whether they are launched, closed or set to record.

Since I run HD HomeRuns along with the Ceton PCIe 4 we tune all local OTA content on terrestrial channel numbes and don't tie up cable tuners with local broadcasts. The HD Homeruns work perfectly on both MC and WMC.

I do use madVR and LAV on MC.

i3 2100 and AMD HD 7790 on the HTPC

i3 2100 and Nvidia GTS 450 on the workstation. Currently those are the only two boxes I have running MC 18.

There are other issues but I will stop here for now or I will start really rambling about the EPG.

[Yaobing]

I am not able to reproduce the problem.

I had assigned channels 1 and 3 to computer 1 (disable tuners 2 and 4), and tuners 2 and 4 to computer 2 (disable tuners 1 and 3).  I can start and stop a channel at will on one computer without affecting what is going on on the other computer. 

I then tried to make it closer to your situation, by assigning tuners 1, 2, 3 to computer 1 and tuner 4 to computer 2.  Still no problems.

Are you sure you disabled all tuners that you do not want used on a computer?

[gtgray]

I am not able to reproduce the problem.

I had assigned channels 1 and 3 to computer 1 (disable tuners 2 and 4), and tuners 2 and 4 to computer 2 (disable tuners 1 and 3).  I can start and stop a channel at will on one computer without affecting what is going on on the other computer. 

I then tried to make it closer to your situation, by assigning tuners 1, 2, 3 to computer 1 and tuner 4 to computer 2.  Still no problems.

Are you sure you disabled all tuners that you do not want used on a computer?

You got me, I don't even know what you mean by disable tuners. With the Ceton you assign tuners to a specific PC, you do not disable tuners.... 

[gtgray]

I never enabled any Ceton Tuners in TV Options... I had configure which Ceton tuners were assigned to which box with the Ceton Tools in Windows Media Center. In the begining long before you ever had Ceton support tuner 4 which is the one designated for the workstation showed up in TV Opitons and none of the others. So now I look and all 4 show up in TV options on the Workstation. I disable the 3 that I don't intend to be able to access on this box but so far they are not showing up on the HTPC in MC Tools>Options>TV. Maybe they will show up in a bit.  They did and they were enabled. So maybe both machines were contending for the same first tuner.

[gtgray]

Curiouser and Curisouer. All the tuners will reappear on both machines, so they are not specifically assigned to on or another. What apparently was happening was both machines were contending for the tuner at the top of the prioirty list. Now the priority list is machine specific where the tuners are not. Keep in mind in WMC Ceton tuners are configured such that any tuner can be assigned to any one PC in the netwwork but only to one. It can not be used on another at the same, in fact it WMC TV Setup doesn't know it exists unless it has previously been assigned.

So the Workstation had tuner 4 assigned to even before you began your efforts to support Cetons on MC... it did not do anything of course but it was there without Media Network or DLNA being enabled. We discussed that at one point. But what I have now is 2 entries for tuner 4 on the Workstation. I only have one entry for Tuner 4 on the HTPC... So their is a legacy entry for tuner 4 which the tuner I originally assigned to the Workstation in WMC when I first got a Ceton Tuner...

[gtgray]

This legacy instance of Tuner 4 does not see it as an Open Cable device. I disabled it as it was seen as ATSC, QAM and the non-domestic tuners.  I am able to have Ceton working on both machines now. Too bad this latest 2 releases are so goofy now I have to figure out why I can't close a TV program without causing an MC is not repsonding message.

[Yaobing]

I am not sure how Ceton utility assigns tuners.  All tuners appear on all machines. As for WMC, my guess is that WMC internally remembers which tuner the user assigns to the computer.  That is the way I was trying to do inside MC.  User has to tell MC which tuner to use.  We do that by disabling the ones you do not want to use.

On TV Options window, select a Ceton tuner, and click Configure...

The first page of the resulting property sheet is "Tuner Type".  In the case, the "type" is either "Open Cable" or "disabled".

Anyway, I am working on a new way so this will become unnecessary.  Until then, you need to disable some tuners on both machines (i.e. specifically tell MC which tuner you want to use on a machine).

[gtgray]

The first page of the resulting property sheet is "Tuner Type".  In the case, the "type" is either "Open Cable" or "disabled".

Anyway, I am working on a new way so this will become unnecessary.  Until then, you need to disable some tuners on both machines (i.e. specifically tell MC which tuner you want to use on a machine).

I was trying that but it did not seem to work. Tuners were still enabled. I will give another go when I won't be driving the family crazy. It would seem to work and then the tuners seem to renable themselves. I was very tired so perhaps I did not do it right. Can't imagine what I could have done wrong though.

[gtgray]

I enabled/disabled again last night and it appeared to stick. We will see. No doubt there is some flakiness as the configure dialog can be different from time to time on the same tuner. One time it will have only the disable/open cable option, next time it might have the disable/ laundry list of tuner types. So there is definitely some way to screw that up and leave it to me to discover it.

[gtgray]

There seems to be a significant amount of additional overhead involved in the video processing of Ceton output at the same resolution as ATSC when both are rendered in madVR. I get very few if any dropped fames in ATSC and it is a big battle with Ceton stuff. Part of it is that with the Ceton there is more pixelization when played in madVR than either RO Standard or WMC.... and of course that adds to the count on dropped and repeated frames. Even taking that into account I often see a thousand repeated frames in an hour and perhasp several hundred dropped frames. 18.0.75 was better than the current release and I have gone back to it.

I don't really understand the problem a 1920x1080i frame is a 1920x1080i frame and the bit rates are essentially the same as ATSC. Their should be no difference in rendering performance with either source. With ATSC I may get a few frames drop at start of playback then a frame or two if there is a bad glitch in the broadcast, otherwise playback is as smooth as RO Standard or WMC albeith without the improved image quality that ROHQ brings.

I have an HD 7790 and even with overclocking it, it does change things much. With the latest release they broke ROHQ with hardware acceleration which did not help with the dropped frames. That is part of the reason I had to roll back. For me the whole point of MC is to get madVR rendering of cable card content..

[pearlvr4]

The support of the Ceton Infinitv tuner card with JRiver MC is like magic.  About a year ago I dreamed up an idea to build a home theater pc with an ATI (now AMD) Eyefinity graphics card.  I bought 4 47" led tvs with thin bezel and configured the tvs in a 2x2 setup. The system works great, as I am able to watch live tv enlarged to the size of the 2x2 tv setup (basically 94" diagonal) Using Windows Media Center.  I can also minimize the view as small as I like anywhere within the the desktop.  My goal wa to be able to watch, using the 4 tuners, 4 simultaneous tv shows (especially for sports) all on the one pc split to the 4 tvs.  Unfortunately Windows Media Center is limited to one instance - killing my goal of 4 shows on one system. I  did not want to use media extenders or 4 pcs with Windows Media Center.  It would become tedious to switch between 4 differwnt systems.  I WAS browsing te web and came across this forum and was happy to see that JRiver Media Center could use the tuners.  I installed it, and went into adcanced settings and selected multiple instances.  It works, as I am now able to open one Windows Media Center, and 3 instances of JRiver MC and watch 4 live programs on one giant screen. I've been on many forums and done a lot of research, and finally found a solution to make my setup complete.  System specs are:  Windows 7 64 bit, Radeon HD 7970 Eyefinity with 4 displayport to dvi adapter to hdmi cables to 4 LG 47" (47lm7600) LED LCD tv's, intel 3770k cpu, 32 gb's corsair 1833 speed (4 x 8 ) memory.