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[joster]

Hi,

I have just setup a computer-based music (mainly) playback system with the following components:

- New PC (specs at http://aleutia.com/relia-fanless-industrial-server) with Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bits) and last version (18.0.158) of JRiver Media Center. No other software installed (Operating system was updated after the installation);

- Dangerous Source (http://www.dangerousmusic.com/products/source) as the outboard DAC (attached via USB 3.0);

- CEntrance Universal Driver (version 7.4.2) for ASIO support (http://centrance.com/downloads/ud/) (note: I have used the Dangerous Source supplied driver, which I believe is exactly the same one from CEntrance);

I have followed the Dangerous Source installation guidelines and all software was installed without any issues.

The problem is that when I configure JRiver Media Center to use the ASIO interface, or even WASAPI, I get some loud hiccups during playback. The only way to have a "smooth" playback is using the Direct Sound interface (meaning the signal goes through the system mixer).

Now, I wonder what's going wrong here? What settings should I apply?

The written information on how to setup correctly the Dangerous Source is very scarce. Even the feedback received from Dangerous Music is not being very helpful. It seems everything should be plug-and-play and I shouldn't have problems! (no "check this, disable that, change those options", etc.).

After searching for a solution on the internet, I came to believe my problem could be related to a latency issue. So I run the DPC Latency Checker and also LatencyMon to check any latency problems.

According to DPC Latency Checker output everything is okay. All green (good) bars with the highest value being 556 microseconds (µs) (= 0.556 milliseconds) and the following message:

"The machine should be able to handle real-time streaming of audio and/or video data without drop-outs.".

With LatencyMon output I could see the latency values per driver with the 10 highest values from the following drivers:

Code: [Select]

ndis.sys 0.547994
USBPORT.SYS 0.267362
ntoskml.exe 0.116970
ataport.SYS 0.084079
dpdat_driver.sys 0.067691
dxgkml.sys 0.064158
netbt.sys 0.052829
tcpip.sys 0.040058
HECIx64.sys 0.023862
ACPI.sys 0.023545
Now, even if individually any of this values could not mean a problem, the total latency (1,288548 ms) of these 10 drivers can be. (Including the remain drivers the total latency value in ms is 1,552280).

Now, is the latency the reason of the hiccups I am hearing? Is the solution just to disable some of those drivers? Which ones are safe to disable. Should I just increase buffer value (MC or/and CEntrance control panel)?

Any guidance would be helpful.

Thank you (and sorry for the long post).

Joster

[Matt]

Does adjusting the primary buffering in Options > Audio > Output mode settings... help?  How about the checkbox for ASIO 'Use large hardware buffers'?

Is there a hardware buffering setting you can set in the driver control panel?  If so, try picking the largest value and see if it helps.

[joster]

Hi Matt,

Thank you for the feedback.

Does adjusting the primary buffering in Options > Audio > Output mode settings... help?  How about the checkbox for ASIO 'Use large hardware buffers'?

I cannot reach the system right now, but I recall by memory that the Buffering settings were towards the "More Responsive" side (something around 0.25 seconds) and the "Use large hardware buffers ..." was on.

Now, regarding the Buffering should I move towards "More Skip Resistant"?

Is there a hardware buffering setting you can set in the driver control panel?  If so, try picking the largest value and see if it helps.

The largest value is 20 ms. I tried it already. Did not work.

By the way, those buffering values should be exactly the same either in the JRiver Media Center and in the CEntrance USB Driver Control Panel?

What about the "Present 24-bit data in a 32-bit package (required by some hardware)" option? I could no find it the last version of MC. It is not available with ASIO output format?

Anyway, I will review the settings again when I get home. Including changing for a USB 2.0 port (by now the DAC is attached to a USB 3.0 port). Maybe, it can be "the solution".

(While I have "seen" the convenience of a computer-based music system, it turned out not to be so plug-and-play as the old, traditional (and trusty) stereo hi-fi system. Well, I will keep my struggle to get this PC system working smoothly.)

Best regards,
Joster

[joster]

Hi Matt,

I have tried the suggested settings - increasing/decreasing the buffering and "Use large hardware buffers" on - without success! I have been also "tweaking other possible working solutions" as suggested either by the ASIO driver and DAC makers - like re-installing the driver, change the USB port, etc., which did not worked.

It seems I am running out of solutions... Well, I will try a couple of options more like using a different player and ASIO driver (although I don't understand how using the driver supplied by the maker could not work?!).

Honestly, I am reaching the limit of my tweakness with this issue and I don't want to risk damage my loudspeakers by continuasly hear these loud hiccups while looking for the solution. Seems like a betting game!

Best regards,
Joster

[Matt]

It seems I am running out of solutions... Well, I will try a couple of options more like using a different player and ASIO driver (although I don't understand how using the driver supplied by the maker could not work?!).

It might be worth trying Foobar to see if the hardware does the same thing.  Last we benchmarked, JRiver had the fastest ASIO buffer fill performance.  So I would expect it to hiccup less than other programs, but if not, it would be a good clue.

Also, what is your JRMark score from Help > Benchmark?

[Matt]

Also, does toggling 'Play from memory' or changing the output sample rate (DSP Studio > Output Format) make any difference?

[joster]

Matt,

Not sure about the "Play from memory" setting (I am at the office now) but the "DSP Studio > Output Format" settings are as follow:

Sample rate: Default values (no change);
Channels: Source number of channels;
Bitdepth: 24-bit (also use Source bitdepth).

Changing from "24-bit" to "Source bithdepth" did not solve the problem.

Matt, on the "Sample rate" option MUST I change the Output value to be same as the Input one?

Regards,

[Matt]

You shouldn't have to change anything.

I'm just suggesting some things to try that might give clues.  Play at 44.1kHz, 96kHz, 192kHz, etc. and see what it changes with regards to the sound.

The same with memory playback.

Note that the bitdepth is ignored when using ASIO since the hardware controls it in that case.

[joster]

It might be worth trying Foobar to see if the hardware does the same thing.  Last we benchmarked, JRiver had the fastest ASIO buffer fill performance.  So I would expect it to hiccup less than other programs, but if not, it would be a good clue.

Also, what is your JRMark score from Help > Benchmark?

Benchmark results:

Code: [Select]

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 3,787 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2,538 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 1,307 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 0,862 seconds
Score: 2237

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0,152 seconds
    Flood filling... 0,430 seconds
    Direct copying... 0,570 seconds
    Small renders... 1,213 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 0,859 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 0,568 seconds
Score: 5802

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0,387 seconds
    Populate database... 1,137 seconds
    Save database... 0,168 seconds
    Reload database... 0,042 seconds
    Search database... 0,977 seconds
    Sort database... 0,917 seconds
    Group database... 0,592 seconds
Score: 5095

JRMark (version 18.0.158): 4378

[Matt]

Benchmark results:
JRMark (version 18.0.158): 4378

That's a fast machine, so I don't think it's anything related to processor usage.

[joster]

Hi Matt,

I find it a bit bizarre, but can it be possible to have a different playback output with another music player? I have just played a track with AIMP3 and this time no glitches/hiccups (when playing that same track with JRiver MC I get those loud glitches/hiccups).

AIMP3 player can play via DirectSound, ASIO and WASAPI (default interface, and the one in use). With JRiver Media Center both WASAPI options did not work.
 
The full settings of AIMP3 as follow:

Device: WASAPI: Windows Default
Parameters: 44100 Hz, 32-Bit, Stereo
Cache size: no setup (0).

Now, is it possible to "route" JRiver Media Center to use an external player? I mean using all the good features for managing a large music collection and have, for instance, AIMP3 for doing the music playback?

Best regards,
Joster

[Matt]

If 32-bit WASAPI works with AIMP3, maybe you could test the same with JRiver?

In DSP Studio > Output Format, pick 32-bit Integer and/or 32-bit.  Then test again, with both WASAPI and WASAPI - Event Style.

Does that work?

[joster]

In DSP Studio > Output Format, pick 32-bit Integer and/or 32-bit.  Then test again, with both WASAPI and WASAPI - Event Style.

Tried that last night. Did not work!

The AIMP3 player seems to works fine with "WASAPI: Windows Default" only. Last night I tested the "WASAPI: CEntrance USB Audio" and "ASIO: CEntrance USB Audio" options and both of them resulted in loud glitches, clicks, hiccups!

So, it seems the problem is the "dialogue" between the ASIO and WASAPI and the Dangerous Source. That is, the playback with "WASAPI: Windows Default" is okay, with "WASAPI: CEntrance USB Audio" is NOT okay!

Can it be a problem with ASIO driver?

What ever it is, I am getting a bit desperate here. I mean, I have invested quite a lot (financially and emotionally) on a system... that is not working! I am feeling I choose the wrong route! (The dealer I bought the Dangerous Source from praised it to be undoubtedly superior than the Lavry and Benchmark offers (the other options I was considering)! Or, maybe the dealer's mark-up was undoubtedly superior on the Source. Anyway, that is history).

The convenience of a computer-based music playback system is evident and (quite) irresistible but, clearly, it is not plug-and-play (no matter what the marketing says)!

Unfortunately, only now I found it. I tried to make the system as simple and single-purpose as possible: one new PC with more the standard requirements, a fresh Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bits) installation with all the drivers' updated, CEntrance USB driver installed and single program to running (JRiver Media Center). Honestly, I don't know what additional steps should I take, what settings should I configure/tweak, what drivers should I disable/enable,...

Maybe I should forget this computer-based music playback thing and just revert to the old and trusty hi-fi stereo system: "insert the CD and press the Play button"! (sound-wise I am not loosing anything here).

Best regards,
Joster

[Vincent Kars]

Using a computer as an audio source can be very frustrating indeed.
However, don’t give up as in the end it is very rewarding.
Can’t help you much but hanging around too long, too often on too many audio forums a couple of things come to my mind.

USB3: should be downwards compatible with USB2 but there can be problems with USB audio.
Any option to test using a true USB2 port?

WASAPI: Windows default.
What ever this means, maybe WASPI in shared mode so using DS/Win UAC1 drivers therefore it works?

Win64: you need a true ASIO 64 bit driver.
USB audio problems on a 64 are not uncommon.
Centrance more or less claims 32/64 on their website.
Any option to try it on a 32 bit Win? If this works it is very likely the Centrance driver not being true 64 bit.

Best: some strong liquor

[JimH]

Did you try playback without the USB driver you installed?

ASIO is a driver supplied by the manufacturer of the sound device.  Make sure you have the correct one.

Try a different sound device, even the one on the motherboard.  That will help identify where the problem is.

[joster]

Using a computer as an audio source can be very frustrating indeed.
However, don’t give up as in the end it is very rewarding.

Didn't give up yet, but heading closer.

Any option to test using a true USB2 port?

Tested all USB ports (either 3.0 or 2.0). Did not worked.

Win64: you need a true ASIO 64 bit driver.
USB audio problems on a 64 are not uncommon.
Centrance more or less claims 32/64 on their website.
Any option to try it on a 32 bit Win? If this works it is very likely the Centrance driver not being true 64 bit.

Just asked CEntrace if their ASIO driver "is truly as 64-bit driver"

Best: some strong liquor

Well, maybe that could be the really solution to enjoy my "defective" computer-based music playback. With the right dose I could stop those nasty clicks and hiccups!

Did you try playback without the USB driver you installed?

ASIO is a driver supplied by the manufacturer of the sound device.  Make sure you have the correct one.

Try a different sound device, even the one on the motherboard.  That will help identify where the problem is.

Jim, yes, the ASIO driver is the one supplied by the manufacturer.

Now, what you mean by "try playback without the USB driver installed"? I think I did that already - when using DirectSound -, but that way I will not get a bit-perfect playback. The playback could even be okay with 16-bit, 44100 kHz files, but not with high-resolution files.

Best regards,
Joster

[Vincent Kars]

Jim’s suggestion is a lucid one.

The DAC uses a XMOS USB receiver.
It is probably supports both UAC1 and UAC2 (USB audio class 1 /2)
Class 1 is supported by Win.
It is limited to 96 kHz
UAC2 supports everything > 96 kHz but Win doesn’t support UAC2 hence you need a third party UAC2 driver.
Bit more detail: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html

- Deinstall the Centrance drivers
- Play anything < 96 kHz using DS & WASAPI. You are using the native WIN UAC1 driver

If this works the problem is likely the Centrance driver.

If you have access to a Mac or Linux box you should be able to play > 96 without installing drivers as both support UAC2 native.

[joster]

Jim’s suggestion is a lucid one.

The DAC uses a XMOS USB receiver.
It is probably supports both UAC1 and UAC2 (USB audio class 1 /2)
Class 1 is supported by Win.
It is limited to 96 kHz
UAC2 supports everything > 96 kHz but Win doesn’t support UAC2 hence you need a third party UAC2 driver.

Hi Vincent,

Thank you for the clarification about Jim's suggestion.

I would be more than happy to have a bit-perfect playback up to 96 kHz. In fact I don't believe higher samples - like 192 kHz (or even 96 kHz) - brings an "improvement" the sound quality. Word length yes (at least in theory).

- Deinstall the Centrance drivers
- Play anything < 96 kHz using DS & WASAPI. You are using the native WIN UAC1 driver

If this works the problem is likely the Centrance driver.

I will try that (having my fingers crossed).

I thought when using DirectSound and/or WASAPI I was "bypassing" the ASIO interface. When using DirectSound doesn't the audio signal goes through the KMixer? What about bit-perfect playback, say of a 24-bit, 96 kHz file? Doesn't KMixer messes with it?

Bit more detail: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html

Nice piece of information (as usual). I promise to read it carefully, but on a quick "scan" of that page I notice the following sentence: "Centrance, manufacturer of adaptive mode solutions". That means the Dangerous Source (XMOS USB Receiver) is no asynchronous?

I thought is was. (if memory doesn't fail me I got an email from the dealer say it was asynchronous).

If you have access to a Mac or Linux box you should be able to play > 96 without installing drivers as both support UAC2 native.

No Mac access. Instead I could install a Linux OS on the PC. I am aware Linux is quite a capable and suitable system or media playback, but my "problem" is that I feel like a "fish out of the water" in this Linux World.

Moreover, so far I did not find a comparable solution like JRiver Media Center (easy installation, plays "almost" everything out of the box, no worries with dependencies, "Theater View", touchscreen-able and remote control capacity) for Linux. Maybe with the exception of OpenELEC. Very nice interface, but I "heard" some quirks about it.

Best regards,
Joster

[Matt]

The AIMP3 player seems to works fine with "WASAPI: Windows Default" only. Last night I tested the "WASAPI: CEntrance USB Audio" and "ASIO: CEntrance USB Audio" options and both of them resulted in loud glitches, clicks, hiccups!

That sort of proves the driver isn't working well, since AIMP3 is having the same problem as us if you talk directly to the device.

Jim and Vincent's idea to try with the Windows driver is a good one.

Or maybe you could try another device?  Getting a DAC working should be simple.

[Vincent Kars]

I would be more than happy to have a bit-perfect playback up to 96 kHz. In fact I don't believe higher samples - like 192 kHz (or even 96 kHz) - brings an "improvement" the sound quality. Word length yes (at least in theory).

It is very simple, you can’t have frequencies above ½ fs (Shannon/Nyquist) so the higher the sample rate, the higher the frequencies you can reproduce.
As even acoustic instruments (cymbal is a well known example, 40 % above 20k) have energy above 20 k, a higher sample rate is better.
Whether you hear it is a different matter.

Bit depth increases the dynamic range. As 0 dBFS is by design the loudest the DAC can play, it is basically about resolving tiny details. 24 does this better than 16.
If you really crank up the volume you can make it audible but you do have to play fff IMHO
Having both redbook and various Hires recordings, imho the quality of the recording is far more important than redbook (16/44) or Hires.
YMMV
A nice one: try the bit tester in the DSP studio

I thought when using DirectSound and/or WASAPI I was "bypassing" the ASIO interface. When using DirectSound doesn't the audio signal goes through the KMixer? What about bit-perfect playback, say of a 24-bit, 96 kHz file? Doesn't KMixer messes with it?

This is about audio drivers, you use DS or WASAPI or ASIO. By design using one means not using the others.
Kmixer=XP but Win7 has a mixer too. It always converts to 32 float and back to the bit depth supported by your audio device and applies dither in the process.
By design using DS=mixer=not bit perfect.
I do hear a subtle difference between DS and WASAPI. WASAPI is slightly more transparent.
Again YMMV
An asset of WASAPI is automatic sample rate switching (ASIO does it too). DS resamples all to the rate set in the audio panel

Nice piece of information (as usual). I promise to read it carefully, but on a quick "scan" of that page I notice the following sentence: "Centrance, manufacturer of adaptive mode solutions". That means the Dangerous Source (XMOS USB Receiver) is no asynchronous?

Thanks

At the time I wrote this, Centrance supplied USB receivers as OEM to Ayre, Wavelength, Benchmark, etc.
They stick to long to the adaptive mode solution and where wiped of this market by e.g. XMOS.
XMOS is as far as I know async.
A simple one it to check it yourself; try Thesycon USB Descriptor Dumper

I am aware Linux is quite a capable and suitable system or media playback, but my "problem" is that I feel like a "fish out of the water" in this Linux World.

Me too, gave up on Linux.
Besides, the players I used at that time gave me the Win3 feeling interface wise.

Success

[JimH]

... the ASIO driver is the one supplied by the manufacturer.

Check for a newer one.

I think I did that already - when using DirectSound -, but that way I will not get a bit-perfect playback. The playback could even be okay with 16-bit, 44100 kHz files, but not with high-resolution files.

If DirectSound works, that tells you that the problem is probably with something other than MC.  The driver or the device.

[tkolsto]

Hi

I can see from the posts that You are a advanced user. I have had problems with my asus stx audio card and soundproblems like hikkups. I also use asio driver. What did the trick for me was when I went into control panel in windows and battery. Here went into advanced settings and i made it to always use "high performance" not "balanced". I have win 8 64 bit but the settings in windows 7 much the same I think. You probably done this but couldent read i inn the posts. When I did this the system was stable and the hikkups dissapeared. I saw that you had done a test of how fast your pc responded but try it if you havent done this adjustment. Kind reguards, Thomas

[joster]

Check for a newer one.If DirectSound works, that tells you that the problem is probably with something other than MC.  The driver or the device.

Yes, DirectSound works. It is the only output that don't give me those nasty clicks, glitches and hiccups! If I could have a bit-perfect playback up to 24-bit, 96 kHz with DirectSound, I would be more than happy.

Hi

I can see from the posts that You are a advanced user. I have had problems with my asus stx audio card and soundproblems like hikkups. I also use asio driver. What did the trick for me was when I went into control panel in windows and battery. Here went into advanced settings and i made it to always use "high performance" not "balanced".

Thomas, I did that already (and follow a few other "tweakings"). Did not worked.

Joster

[JimH]

You could use MC's DSP Studio / Output Settings to convert everything.  By doing that you may discover the highest bitrate and sample rate that the device can reliably play.  Some devices have trouble when they switch.

[joster]

I thank you all for the postings.

The things are not working (at least for me). Other than the relative success of having AIMP working with "WASAPI: Windows Default", so far I could not manage to have the Dangerous Source working with the provided ASIO driver.

Actually, the things are getting worse! Now, I can hear a low and continuous noise from the tweeters' speakers (both). A kind of buzzing sound. This hum/buzz problem is a very recent one which I hadn't with the my "traditional" hi-fi system (CD player + amplifier + loudspeakers).

I have remove the recently add new gear - PC and Dangerous Source, including all their cables - and buzzing noise is still there. Even with ONLY the amplifier and the speakers connects that!

Is it possible that those loud pops and clicks could have damage the tweeters? According to some sources tweeters can be damaged by amplifier clipping!

This computer-based music playback turn out to be a hell of a experience (for me). I think I will revert to my old and trusty hi-fi system (and cross my fingers my loudspeakers are not damage).

Regards,
Joster

[joster]

2nd round... to have my computer-based music playback to work properly.

After reading this:

"Is your M-Audio USB interface connected to a USB port on your keyboard, monitor, or to a multi-port USB hub?  If so, this could be the source of your problem.  Connect the device directly to the computer and test the audio quality.  If the problem persists, continue testing all USB ports."

I came to believe that this is the source of all my problems (pops and clicks during playback).

I did test it with my computer and I realized no matter what USB port I use for any device (pen, DVD driver, keyboard, outboard DAC) they all fall under the control of the same USB host controller - although I have three main entries as per the Device Manager.

Now, is there a way to force a device, say the outboard DAC, to be controlled by a specific USB host controller?

The idea is to have the outboard DAC only in one USB controller and all the other devices on a different one.

Regards,
Joster

[6233638]

Now, is there a way to force a device, say the outboard DAC, to be controlled by a specific USB host controller?

The idea is to have the outboard DAC only in one USB controller and all the other devices on a different one.

You will have to swap the ports that it is connected to, as each controller is physically linked to a certain set of USB ports. For example any front-panel USB connections may run off a separate USB controller than the ports on the back of a motherboard.

Windows' device manager will let you check what devices are connected to which USB controller/hub. Unfortunately there's no easy way to know which ports are being run off a separate controller without swapping devices around and checking what they are connected to.

You may even find that you have additional USB controllers and don't know what they are connected to.
For example if I disconnect everything from my PC, I have three USB2 controllers listed. One handles all USB2 ports on the back of the motherboard (even though some are different colors) another handles the front-panel connections (which I'm not actually using, as I have a USB3 front-panel connection) and I think the second motherboard header must be what the third controller is for - I can disable that and all my USB ports continue working.

You may also find that some devices add another USB hub to the device manager, so it's easiest to troubleshoot with only a basic mouse connected.
For example, my keyboard has two USB2 ports on the back of it, and even though it's just a mouse, my DeathAdder 2013 shows up as a mouse, a keyboard, and a USB hub when it's connected.

[Vincent Kars]

If you do have the space and a slot on the PCI, a separate USB card on the PCI will do the trick