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[flac.rules]

If i get 5 2-channel usb soundcards to run my multiroom-setup., can i excpect MC to handle it fine, with zones, synching and all that? Or can i expect trouble with that many? I am thing of running 5 Muse USB Dacs.

[struct]

Cant help but would like to know answer

[mwillems]

If i get 5 2-channel usb soundcards to run my multiroom-setup., can i excpect MC to handle it fine, with zones, synching and all that? Or can i expect trouble with that many? I am thing of running 5 Muse USB Dacs.

It depends on what your situation and tolerances are.  Media Center can link zones and output to multiple soundcards at once.  It will sync, but the syncing (in my experience) can be a little fiddly. 

I've found that it's generally good enough if you have music playing in different rooms, especially if the rooms aren't adjacent.  You can adjust the sync in a fixed way, which will generally get you close.  I found it to be slightly disorienting when moving between two adjacent rooms, but it's generally relatively close.  It seems (with my hardware) to drift farther apart as songs continue, so on long songs (ten plus minutes) it could get pretty far apart (several seconds).  It re-syncs at the beginning of each song though, which can lead to a pause in the music on the "faster" DAC, which was odd because I use matched DACs (two of the same model).

The sync (at least with the DACs I was using) was not anywhere near good enough for, say, bi-amping, but perfectly good for a party situation where I had music playing in the backyard and in the living room (with the kitchen in between).  The DACs I was using were relatively cheap, so your mileage may vary, but that's my two cents.

[Matt]

I don't stress test it, but I often let music play all day in two zones at home.  It rarely needs to pause and resync.

v18 got quite a bit better than previous versions at this.  Play Doctor works nicely with linked zones now as well.

I'm using a single piece of hardware.  This thread describes the approach:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71218.0

I have less experience with a pile of different soundcards.

[mwillems]

I don't stress test it, but I often let music play all day in two zones at home.  It rarely needs to pause and resync.

v18 got quite a bit better than previous versions at this.  Play Doctor works nicely with linked zones now as well.

I'm using a single piece of hardware.  This thread describes the approach:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71218.0

I have less experience with a pile of different soundcards.

I should be clear that all my multi-zone linking (described above) was done with multiple DACs, not a single device.  It sounds like single device may be the way to go.

[6233638]

I would not use multiple sound cards or devices for this task. You would be better off sending audio through an AVR that has a lot of channels, driving the speakers directly.

Otherwise, you are going to suffer from sync problems due to clock drift in the DACs.

Alternatively, while it's not a high-end system as far as quality goes, the Sonos system is designed to keep audio in sync across multiple devices. (though I don't have any experience with it, and I don't know if it can interface with Media Center - I've just heard that it works well for that task)

[flac.rules]

I don't stress test it, but I often let music play all day in two zones at home.  It rarely needs to pause and resync.

v18 got quite a bit better than previous versions at this.  Play Doctor works nicely with linked zones now as well.

I'm using a single piece of hardware.  This thread describes the approach:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71218.0

I have less experience with a pile of different soundcards.

I don't know if i misunderstand, but wouldn't that approach make it difficult to have independent volumes on the two zones?

[flac.rules]

I would not use multiple sound cards or devices for this task. You would be better off sending audio through an AVR that has a lot of channels, driving the speakers directly.

Otherwise, you are going to suffer from sync problems due to clock drift in the DACs.

Alternatively, while it's not a high-end system as far as quality goes, the Sonos system is designed to keep audio in sync across multiple devices. (though I don't have any experience with it, and I don't know if it can interface with Media Center - I've just heard that it works well for that task)

A 10 channel AVR where you can control each pair of stereo-speakers independently seems very rare, I haven't seen one, and I would guess the ones that exist are very expensive too?

Sonos is quite expensive, and also less flexible i feel. I already have a multichannel amp, i just need som DAC/premaps to drive it.

I guess a single piece of hardware is the best, but the reason i wanted to try 5 USB 2-channel cards are two-fold:

1. The cost, a reasonable quality muse dac costs around 30 dollars. That is 150 dollars for  all channels, I can go up to 300 or 500 dollars, but i would rather not go over that.
2. PCI-sound cards with that many channels seem to have a history of spotty drivers and unreliable support for new windows-versions, I would prefer an USB-type soundcard for compatibility.

[6233638]

A 10 channel AVR where you can control each pair of stereo-speakers independently seems very rare, I haven't seen one, and I would guess the ones that exist are very expensive too?

I assumed that you would be able to handle that via Media Center, treating pairs of channels as zones.
Another alternative would be a multichannel DAC, but I suspect anything over 2 channels is going to be classed as studio gear and be prohibitively expensive.

Sonos is quite expensive, and also less flexible i feel.

I agree - but if you are wanting sound to be synced across multiple rooms, it's one of the solutions that (supposedly) actually works.

I guess a single piece of hardware is the best, but the reason i wanted to try 5 USB 2-channel cards are two-fold:

1. The cost, a reasonable quality muse dac costs around 30 dollars. That is 150 dollars for  all channels, I can go up to 300 or 500 dollars, but i would rather not go over that.
2. PCI-sound cards with that many channels seem to have a history of spotty drivers and unreliable support for new windows-versions, I would prefer an USB-type soundcard for compatibility.

That's completely understandable. The thing is, it's easy to send a single source to multiple rooms, or have multiple sources work independently, the problem is when you want multiple devices to sync together and they're not running off the same master clock.

That being said, I do wonder how big an issue sync would actually be in the real-world, if each is going to be in a different room.
Trying to run three stereo DACs to create a 5.1 setup is a nightmare unless you can run them off the same clock (as you can with the Mytek DACs) but if the devices are all separate two channel setups in other rooms, I wonder if it's actually going to matter - I have to assume that you're probably going to get some degree of "echo" due to the distances and other factors involved anyway.

[flac.rules]

Yeah, yo could be right, maybe a slight offset bewteen zones isn't that big of a deal when they are in seperate rooms. I don't know if buying 5 of the excact same type also means that they might drift less between eachother.

[csimon]

If i get 5 2-channel usb soundcards to run my multiroom-setup., can i excpect MC to handle it fine, with zones, synching and all that? Or can i expect trouble with that many? I am thing of running 5 Muse USB Dacs.

Do you require independent music in rooms at some point? If not, and you only require synch audio at all times, the best way might be to output just one stream from JRiver and then distribute the audio, e.g. via an audio distribution amplifer or a wireless transmitter/reciver system such as the Marmitek Audio Anywhere - http://www.marmitek.com/en/product-details/audio-video-at-home/listen-anywhere/wireless-audio-cables/audio-anywhere-625.php.  You would obviously need powered speakers or an amp in each room - options for that could be a central multi-channel amp (but these are expensive, especially when you want local valume control) or another Marmitek wireless product called Surround Anywhere http://www.marmitek.com/en/product-details/audio-video-at-home/listen-anywhere/wireless-audio-cables/surround-anywhere-220.php, if the rooms are in reach wirelessly.

[flac.rules]

I require independent streams, and i already have a multichannel amp centrally placed.

[JimH]

MC can split a multi-channel card into several zones.  A 5.1 card, for example could be three stereo zones, using channels 0-1, 2-3, and 4-5.

[flac.rules]

MC can split a multi-channel card into several zones.  A 5.1 card, for example could be three stereo zones, using channels 0-1, 2-3, and 4-5.

Hmm, that might be a possibility, how normal are 9.1 soundcards?

[Matt]

I don't know if i misunderstand, but wouldn't that approach make it difficult to have independent volumes on the two zones?

You have fully independent volume, DSP stacks, etc. with each zone using the approach here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71218.0

The only thing you can't have is hardware exclusive output, since if any one zone locked the card, other zones wouldn't be able to talk to it.

[kstuart]

Just curious.... different DACs implies you are playing different music (different songs, different styles, different lengths).

So what does "sync" mean in that case ?

[mwillems]

That being said, I do wonder how big an issue sync would actually be in the real-world, if each is going to be in a different room.
Trying to run three stereo DACs to create a 5.1 setup is a nightmare unless you can run them off the same clock (as you can with the Mytek DACs) but if the devices are all separate two channel setups in other rooms, I wonder if it's actually going to matter - I have to assume that you're probably going to get some degree of "echo" due to the distances and other factors involved anyway.

As I noted at the top of the thread, my experience running two synced zones off of two separate DACs (of the same make and model) in different rooms was that the lack of sync was a little disorienting but not unusable.  Separation between the rooms helps, and makes it almost a non-problem.  Sync between adjacent rooms had "echo" issues that made it less ideal.  

To OP: If you can't find a single integrated DAC in your price range that could handle all the zones, you could use one eight channel DAC with one additional two-channel DAC so only one room would actually experience any sync issues (you could pick the most remote zone).  As Jim noted above, you can fence off the channels to create four stereo zones on a 7.1 card or receiver.  

It sounds like you already have a multichannel receiver, so you could try seeing how it drives multiple zones as a (free) first step.

[flac.rules]

Just curious.... different DACs implies you are playing different music (different songs, different styles, different lengths).

So what does "sync" mean in that case ?

In this case, it means playing the same with several zones. I just want to be able to play the same, or something different in a setup that isn't expensive, and is no-fuzz

[flac.rules]

To OP: If you can't find a single integrated DAC in your price range that could handle all the zones, you could use one eight channel DAC with one additional two-channel DAC so only one room would actually experience any sync issues (you could pick the most remote zone).  As Jim noted above, you can fence off the channels to create four stereo zones on a 7.1 card or receiver. 

It sounds like you already have a multichannel receiver, so you could try seeing how it drives multiple zones as a (free) first step.

Just to clarify, i have a normal 12-channel amp, with analogue in, no dacs or anything, so it is not a traditional multichannel receiver.

[kstuart]

So, "sync" refers to a programmable delay that allows faintly heard sound from another room to arrive at the same time as the same sound from the in-room speakers ?

[flac.rules]

So, "sync" refers to a programmable delay that allows faintly heard sound from another room to arrive at the same time as the same sound from the in-room speakers ?

I guess, or, at the very least that i can play the same to all soundcards without artifacts, and that they don't "drift" too far apart. But i don't know how big the problem would be in real life, if all the speakers start at exactly the same time, the distance between them is rarely more than 10-15 meters. Which is about  30-45 ms which is just on the very edge on where we start to perceive an echo.

[6233638]

As I noted at the top of the thread, my experience running two synced zones off of two separate DACs (of the same make and model) in different rooms was that the lack of sync was a little disorienting but not unusable.  Separation between the rooms helps, and makes it almost a non-problem.  Sync between adjacent rooms had "echo" issues that made it less ideal.

But aren't you going to have that problem no matter what you do?

If the speakers are far enough apart, even if you are running all of them off a single clock, you're going to have delay issues simply due to the distance that the audio is travelling.
If you have two zones and set it up so that sound is perfectly in sync when you're listening in one room, isn't it going to be twice as bad if you're in the other?

That's why I'm actually wondering if sync is even an issue with this setup. It seems like sync may only be a problem if you're trying to combine multiple stereo DACs to create a multichannel setup, rather than multiple stereo DACs in separate rooms.

[mwillems]

But aren't you going to have that problem no matter what you do?

If the speakers are far enough apart, even if you are running all of them off a single clock, you're going to have delay issues simply due to the distance that the audio is travelling.
If you have two zones and set it up so that sound is perfectly in sync when you're listening in one room, isn't it going to be twice as bad if you're in the other?

That's why I'm actually wondering if sync is even an issue with this setup. It seems like sync may only be a problem if you're trying to combine multiple stereo DACs to create a multichannel setup, rather than multiple stereo DACs in separate rooms.

The problem you identify is an intractable problem, but compensating for those kinds of minor echoes isn't what I was describing.  In my set up I was trying to play the same music in different rooms at a party.  Given the conversation etc., I wasn't trying to compensate for the delay from different sound arriving from different rooms (a little bit of delay echo would have been acceptable).  I was trying to do something much simpler; just get it synced well enough that the transition from one room into another wasn't jarring.  The drift I experienced wasn't a few dozen milliseconds: at four or five minutes into a song the two DACs would be one or two seconds apart, not milliseconds (which got proportionately worse on 10 minute classical tracks).  

Which is jarring if you're moving between adjacent rooms, but less jarring (and almost workable) if you've got a room separating them.  Also, the room with the "fast" DAC would routinely experience several seconds of silence between tracks as the two DACs resynced interstitially.  That made the multi-DAC solution not great even for the fairly rough and ready use I was putting it to (which is why I can't really recommend a zone solution based on multiple DACs).  It works, but can be maddening if the rooms aren't far enough apart.

[kstuart]

Hmmm, if you have the same music, then if you use one DAC, you won't have drift between the DACs.

However, if you are having a party, the advantage of having multiple DACs is having different music in each room.  If someone doesn't like the music in the main room, they can hang out in a different room (just like the festival in Napa, California has three stages so there is something for every taste).

[mwillems]

Hmmm, if you have the same music, then if you use one DAC, you won't have drift between the DACs.

However, if you are having a party, the advantage of having multiple DACs is having different music in each room.  If someone doesn't like the music in the main room, they can hang out in a different room (just like the festival in Napa, California has three stages so there is something for every taste).

And that's ultimately what I wind up doing: something bright and upbeat in the backyard, something more soothing in the living room (with the kitchen in between).  It just sounded like OP was trying to get the same music playing everywhere.

[flac.rules]

And that's ultimately what I wind up doing: something bright and upbeat in the backyard, something more soothing in the living room (with the kitchen in between).  It just sounded like OP was trying to get the same music playing everywhere.

I basically want to be able to do both, depending on the situation.