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[Otello]

Well, I have a 30 minutes experience using JR for video...
My problem is 90% of my video files contain music: operas, rock & classical concerts, etc., so I'd need to use tags such as Composer or Conductor, which apparently are not available for video files.
Please, tell me I'm missing something obvious. :-)

Thanks
Marco

[JimH]

In the tag window, you can add new fields to display.  Click in the upper left corner.

[Otello]

Hi Jim, thank you for the quick reply.

I did try "also show" and "show all tags", too, but I don't see the Composer and Conductor fields...

[InflatableMouse]

When you open Tools/Options/Library & Folders and go to Manage Library Fields, find Composer in the list. You'll see that the property 'Flags' is greyed out and only contains 'Audio'. This is the reason why this field (and some of the others) are not available for Music Videos.

I have a few concerts as well and wanted to use certain fields that weren't available in the past. I think its been requested a few times before.

The only thing you can do is create a custom library field and use that instead.

[Samson]

You may find these posts helpful about mixing audio and video files and more advanced stuff mixing audi and video files

Re creating a custom field its easier than it first looks, try Tools > Options > Library and Folders > Manage Library Fields > Add New field....see attached. You then "also show" and select the custom tag as you mentioned in your post. You can now tag your files with whatever you choose to write in this field and customize your view scheme accordingly (r click >customize view and "Add" , set rules etc
HTH

[Otello]

Yes, I can create a custom field, or even hijack some unused tags, for the record I got the temporary solution of using Author for Composer and Director for Conductor, but this way - for instance - I cannot look for all the files (audio AND video) of a given composer.
(Please, do not suggest me to tag from scratch my audio collection with out-of-standard custom fields!  )
Frankly speaking, it's hard to understand why some tags are not available with video.

[Samson]

Im not sure whether Jmone's workaround here is applicable to composer,conductor.

Jim,if you are still there, I also wondered why audio and video fields are not made interchangeable I get there might be conceptual grounds but is there a technical reason? Would it be hard to do?

Cheers,
David

[InflatableMouse]

Just gave it a quick test but it looks like you can simply set Media Type to Audio and get all the audio tags to edit. Since Media Sub Type is still Music Video, playing the file still plays the video.

So when I add the Field Composer and give it a value, do an update tags from library it neatly updates the XML sidecar file to include the Composer tag. Editing this file manually and updating library from tags adds the value to MC too.

Disclaimer: I've only done a quick test so I don't know if there are any other concequences to doing this.

[InflatableMouse]

Ah, Updating library from tags resets the Media and Media Sub Type fields to Video and Movie respectively.

[jmone]

Here you go.  If you want to manage your Music Video like your Audio Files then all you have to do is make them appear in the "Audio" section of MC and then all the "Audio" tags like Conductor and Composer are exposed and you manage the Music Video tracks just like Audio Tracks.

As per the pic, Right Click on "Audio" --> Set Rules for File Display and change the values to also include Music Video.  Easiest way is to press Import/Export and past this in without the quote "([Media Type]=[Audio],[Playlist] or [Media Sub Type]=[Music Video])".  All your "Audio" views will now include Music Videos.

You now can tag away! (see 2nd PIC).

[jmone]

FYI - if you want to know how to break up a Music Video (BD) using particles then the Wiki has been updated on this - http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Particles .

[InflatableMouse]

What I didn't check is if you update library from tags and it resets the Media and Media Sub Type fields to Video and Movie respectively, whether the audio only tags remain in the XML and library, or whether their values are cleared too.

[jmone]

The other option is to create a new Library View as follows.  All your Music Videos in One Place - all the Columns are exposed and editable.  All good.

[Samson]

Here you go.  If you want to manage your Music Video like your Audio Files then all you have to do is make them appear in the "Audio" section of MC and then all the "Audio" tags like Conductor and Composer are exposed and you manage the Music Video tracks just like Audio Tracks.

Right Click on "Audio" --> press Import/Export and past this in without the quote "([Media Type]=[Audio],[Playlist] or [Media Sub Type]=[Music Video])".  

Thanks for your input here in this post !

I must be missing something. I followed the directions and as anticipated it set up views with audio mixed in with music videos (like I had with a different rule set, Audio;Video then exclude non-music-videos).The trouble is the actual file is still marked as Media Type is [Video], and therefore doesnt show dedicated audio tags (for me).If I delete the video media type and leave blank it wont play at all (MC crashed at one point) and had to restore tags using, strangely, "update Library from tags" (i would have thought the other way round but no matter). It restored the Media type = [Video] and subtype =[Music Video]

If now I change the Media Type from [Video] to [Audio] yes the audio tags appear as available, the file plays , but only audio, no video........Is this waht you meant to happen?

[InflatableMouse]

If now I change the [Media Type] from video to Audio yes the audio tags appear as available, the file plays , but only audio, no video........Is this waht you meant to happen?

No, if Media Subtype is still set to Musci Video, video should play as well, not just audio. I tested that yesterday and that's how it worked for me.

However, when you do the update library from tags, it restores the media type and media subtype, and probably also removes any illegal fields too. But I need to test this to be sure which I can't right now as I'm at work.

[jmone]

You can Tag these files by adding Columns to the Details Windows and editing them in there.  The Tag Windows will not show the tags (but that does not matter).  In the Pic below you can see the "Conductor and Composer Col" but not in the Tag Window.  Just edit the values in the Col (you can multi select).

There is no need to change Media Type.

[InflatableMouse]

Epic! 

[Samson]

Picture 1 shows my Audio rules and Pic 2 the avi file. If it is Audio, no video plays (not sure how you achieved this, InflatableMouse), if it is Video then no audio tags are available..........

So you are saying to keep  Media Type = [Video] , all audio tags disappear , but you can then create columns in the details list pane with say composer by "add expression" column. This will not add [Composer] as a field property but it can be used for sorting the view and revealing who the composer is. Its kinda the next best thing but havent thought through the implications.

[jmone]

Almost, Just right click on a COL then just select "Composer" and "Conductor" from the drop down list (not the expression option)

[jmone]

You can then edit the content of these fields directly while keeping Media Type as "Video" so it plays correctly.

[InflatableMouse]

Picture 1 shows my Audio rules and Pic 2 the avi file. If it is Audio, no video plays (not sure how you achieved this, InflatableMouse), if it is Video then no audio tags are available..........

I might have done a update library from tags but the first time I did that I didn't realize it had reset media type tags, that's probably why it played.

[jmone]

FYI I just tested updating Tags.  I added to a MPG file Conductor = "A" and Composer ="B" and then did a:
- Update Tags from Library and these values were written to the sidecar file (see code)
- Did an Update Library from Tags at it was read back just fine

Code: [Select]

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes" ?>
<MPL Version="2.0" Title="JRSidecar">
<Item>
<Field Name="Filename">\\MAIN\Media\Video\Music Video\Eagles\Hell Freezes Over\21 - Desperado.mpg</Field>
<Field Name="Last Skipped">1351130861</Field>
<Field Name="Compression">mpg video (video: MPEG-2 Video, audio: DTS Audio)</Field>
<Field Name="Bitrate">7863</Field>
<Field Name="Number Plays">15</Field>
<Field Name="Bit Depth">16</Field>
<Field Name="Genre">Music Videos</Field>
<Field Name="Track #">21</Field>
<Field Name="Conductor">A</Field>
<Field Name="FPS">25</Field>
<Field Name="Last Played">1308285348</Field>
<Field Name="Artist">Eagles</Field>
<Field Name="Stack Top">-1</Field>
<Field Name="Channels">6</Field>
<Field Name="Composer">B</Field>
<Field Name="Bookmark">15716</Field>
<Field Name="Media Sub Type">Music Video</Field>
<Field Name="Stack View">0</Field>
<Field Name="Album">Hell Freezes Over</Field>
<Field Name="Playback Info">(1:4)(9:CropEdges)(1:0)(12:CenterOffset)(3:0,0)(11:AspectRatio)(1:0)(11:ZoomPercent)(3:100)</Field>
<Field Name="Skip Count">6</Field>
<Field Name="Date">38931.6581597222248092</Field>
<Field Name="Name">Desperado</Field>
<Field Name="Sample Rate">48000</Field>
<Field Name="Duration">380</Field>
</Item>
</MPL>

Note:  Particles don't support sidecar files (unfortunately) so if you try to do a "Update Tags from Library" it will fail.  Don't try "Update Library from Tags" or you will lose meta data.

[jmone]

Gents - Keep things simple!  Leave Media Type as "Video" and Media Sub Type as "Music Video".  Just change the view (as you have done) to include "Music Videos" then add cols to expose the tags you want to see and edit.  This way you can see, sort and track the meta data you want and the file still plays.

[Samson]

Almost, Just right click on a COL then just select "Composer" and "Conductor" from the drop down list (not the expression option)

Even simpler.....and Holy Sh*t, Batman, that works ! I mean it actually DOES tag the file with the field property [Composer]. I tested it by creating brand new libraries grouped by Composer and it worked, also tested searching for a fictitious composer I entered as a value and it worked ! That is awsome. It just doesnt DISPLAY as a field tag under the Action Window.

Jmone you should do a guide for this, it is a common and confusing issue I believe even for intermediate and maybe advanced users. Well Done, very clever mate !

[jmone]

OK - you guys will love this then..... I'm not a user of the Tag Pane (as I do it all in COL in the Details area)... BUT.... if you right click in the Tag Pane --> "Show Tags In Current View" you will then see the stuff you have in the COLs such as Composer and Conductor

[jmone]

Jmone you should do a guide for this, it is a common and confusing issue I believe even for intermediate and maybe advanced users. Well Done, very clever mate !

   My first Guide on this was in 2007 and posted http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/277756-How-To-Rip-and-Manage-Music-DVDs-just-like-Music-CDs-in-JRiver-Media-Center - It is way out of date as it is pre Particles and the existence of "Sub Media Type" in MC (we had to use Genre)!  That said I still use DVD Decrypter to break up DVD's by chapter as MC can not (yet) do automatically for particle creations!

[jmone]

Samson, can I suggest that after having a play and have it working as you like then have a go at creating the guide with IM as I don't use stuff like Conductor / Composer etc.  Happy to help out with any details and when we are happy I'll add it to the Wiki.
Thanks
Nathan

[Samson]

"Show Tags In Current View" you will then see the stuff you have in the COLs such as Composer and Conductor

For some reason I cant replicate this but can see it in your pics so will work on it later

[Samson]

  My first Guide on this was in 2007 ...

Yeah, there has to be a better way of keeping the Wiki up to date or dare I say a user manual.I know there are heaps of people like yourself and Inflatablemouse willing to help but just saying...

[Samson]

Samson, can I suggest that after having a play and have it working as you like then have a go at creating the guide with IM as I don't use stuff like Conductor / Composer etc.  Happy to help out with any details and when we are happy I'll add it to the Wiki.
Thanks
Nathan

Sure Nathan, will give it a go and no doubt seek your further advice   Thanks again!

David

[Otello]

Ehm, shouldn't be simpler if JR just accepts all the standard audio tags for musical videos? 

Ciao
Marco

[jmone]

Yes    This request is in but .... in the interim (and that could last for ever) this is what we have!

[Samson]

Ehm, shouldn't be simpler if JR just accepts all the standard audio tags for musical videos? 

Yes    This request is in but .... in the interim (and that could last for ever) this is what we have!

There are some very quirky things about MC and this is is definitely one.

It is a no brainer that people will want to mix music with music videos.I have seen a number of similar threads on the topic.

Here is the strange part.There appears no obvious solution to the problem that audio tags cant be used on video files.I assumed there was some technical reason way beyond my comprehension.In reality, the answer is.... 'just tag from the details list pane on the right of the page'. No,You cant do it from the left pane where it says "Tag Window" nor can you even see the respective tag fields there.Where's the sense in that ? Sorry to sound cynical but this is just silly !

EDIT- perhaps thats too harsh, there has to be something Im missing here. If not, Jim if you are there, surely the tags can be placed under the Tag Window ?

At any rate the problem is effectively solved, one way or another, thanks Jmone.

[Otello]

I'm sorry Samson, but there's no reasonable tech reason to disable some audio tags for video files; after all, is just a tag in a sidecar file: you only need to tell the program not to discard it.
BTW other programs may handle Composer and Conductor for video files.

My very personal feeling is that classical music is seen by JR staff as something esoteric, maybe dangerous and even subversive.
(Of course I'm joking)

[glynor]

I'm sorry Samson, but there's no reasonable tech reason to disable some audio tags for video files

We've been discussing it on the beta board a bit....  It isn't for technical reasons, it is for user-experience reasons.  Essentially, there are a metric crap-load of available fields.  Exposing the entire list everywhere would overwhelm many new users, so they hide ones that aren't generally relevant to particular media types: [FPS] for Images and Audio files.

Matt has agreed that the list probably needs revising, and they are just trying to come up with the best way to do it.

[Otello]

We've been discussing it on the beta board a bit....  It isn't for technical reasons, it is for user-experience reasons.  Essentially, there are a metric crap-load of available fields.  Exposing the entire list everywhere would overwhelm many new users, so they hide ones that aren't generally relevant to particular media types: [FPS] for Images and Audio files.

Matt has agreed that the list probably needs revising, and they are just trying to come up with the best way to do it.

What about  separating Music Video from standard video?  I mean a new media type. (no more a subtype).
in my opinion, musical video tagging has completely different needs from films, TV series, etc.

Ciao
Marco

[Samson]

We've been discussing it on the beta board a bit....  It isn't for technical reasons, it is for user-experience reasons.  Essentially, there are a metric crap-load of available fields.  Exposing the entire list everywhere would overwhelm many new users, so they hide ones that aren't generally relevant to particular media types: [FPS] for Images and Audio files.
Matt has agreed that the list probably needs revising, and they are just trying to come up with the best way to do it.

OMG I am one of the biggest advocates of improving MC by specifically making it more accessable for beginner to intermediate users.Its relative inaccessibility IMHO is MC's single greatest weakness and source of complaint. I have touched on various aspects of this elsewhere and I am sure it hasn't endeared me to folks by speaking my mind. My initial impression of MC was in fact it was very much biased towards advanced users.I could but wont elaborate here.

That said, hiding tags to improve user experience is, well, crazy. Newcomers can easily scroll through a long list of tags and work out [aperture] has little to do with music. If some whine the list is too long then just group the list by categories somehow, have a hide/unhide button to deal with "irrelevant" tags (for any given contextual area) , but DONT make them unavailable. MC, it seems to me, prides itself on choice and configuration NOT for making the choice for you! The irony here, and in multiple posts like it, is that preventing access to basic tags has decidedly worsened the user experience.

I would humbly suggest you need a  non-advanced user to be on the beta board specifically to represent the "ordinary user's" perspective.

All the best 

[glynor]

I would humbly suggest you need a  non-advanced user to be on the beta board specifically to represent the "ordinary user's" perspective.

We have a few.

They also get feedback from their corporate clients, and those IT departments have lots of people on the Helpdesk who see real-world problems.

I don't think the worry is that it is particularly hard to see that [Aperture] doesn't matter for non-Images (though, it could apply to Video too).  The problem is information overload (the eyes glazed over and they read nothing and are scared away effect).  It is always a balancing act.

They try very hard to make the defaults appropriate for novice use with NO changes.  I can't comment on how successful that is, myself, as I don't run anything close to stock.  But that's the goal.

Anyway, my point was that it isn't falling on deaf ears, and there will be some kind of resolution, they're just trying to sort out what resolution is appropriate.

[jmone]

I think MC already is well equipped with a few tweaks to the results of the following Diag Box to actually display what it says:
- Show Default Tags : As now with stuff hidden based on Media Type
- Show Tags with Values : Show all tags with values regardless of Media Type default
- Show Tag in Current View : Show all tags displayed in Current View regardless of Media Type default
- Show All Tags : Show all tags regardless of Media Type default

This option should also determine what you can see as available COL as well.

Prob solved!

[glynor]

I think MC already is well equipped with a few tweaks to the results of the following Diag Box to actually display what it says

But that only solves the display problem (and doesn't Also Show > Tag override that anyway?)

The core problem is that you have to jump through hoops to tag a video file with [Composer] or an audio file with [Season].  Tweaking the display of the Tag AW doesn't solve that...

[jmone]

That Diag also has an "Also Show" option.  So if I was in Video and wanted to "Also Show" Composer I cold be able to use this feature to make it "visible".  At present "Also Show" and "Show All" still hid stuff based on the Media Type

[JimH]

I would humbly suggest you need a  non-advanced user to be on the beta board specifically to represent the "ordinary user's" perspective.

You don't need to be on the beta board to have an impact on where we go with MC.  I read most posts.  So does Matt.

It isn't a simple task making a simple program that is capable of doing what you need.

[Samson]

At present "Also Show" and "Show All" still hide stuff based on the Media Type

IMO spot on, and this confuses or frustrates the ordinary user. Advanced users always find workarounds, such is the beauty of MC.

You don't need to be on the beta board to have an impact on where we go with MC.  I read most posts.  So does Matt.

No doubt one of MC strongest assets.I have even seen it spoken about on other boards how with MC you can access the people running the show and that they listen.

Sometimes the responses however can be a little cryptic. Jim to be honest, I was a bit puzzled when you told the OP, "In the tag window, you can add new fields to display."

It isn't a simple task making a simple program that is capable of doing what you need.

Whatever I say here is like "tying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs". The only area where I am not out-gunned here is in my capacity as the "ordinary user".

In this specific case of the missing tags I think Jmone is right and as an ordinary user that would make way more sense to me. (sorry Jmone if I am 'tainting' you by association, lol)

Talking more generally and forgive please for what may be seen as a rant. When I first encountered MC it struck me as complicated. The standard view full of panes, split screens, buttons, columns, menus...where to begin. TV was under "Drives and Devices" but Video had its own category; I couldnt put my music videos with my music; Some TV options were under tools > options| some accessed as a button under TV in the left pane|some as r click on the display; Things configured in standard view had no carry-over to Theatre view; There is an "inherit parent view rules" option in standard view but not in Theatre view; When you "set rules" under customize view it says "edit search" and if you wondered what the "Import/Export" button was, it says something about "smartlist"..............a few months down the track and I dont even register these things anymore than I think "The Beatles" is a strange name for a singing group. Then there was no real user manual to speak of and the wiki can be, as it sometimes says across the top, "this is out of date".

I am aware at least some of these things like user manual for each new MC version and a glossary of terms have been considered and decided against for whatever reason.

I understand it is difficult to strike a balance between cram everything in for advanced users but "keeping it simple, stupid". Some programs get around this by having a wizard based beginners GUI until you elect to switch to the "advanced" back of house view. You would have already considered this and decided against it.

I don't think anyone will really see it my way but who knows what's possible with a little encouragement (see attached ) , all the best
David

[jmone]

FYI - I had a bit more of a play with this and from what I see, if you include in a single view a mix of Media Type = Audio and Video then you will be able to see and edit tags related to either.  So my earlier example works well of including "Media Sub Type = Music Video" into the existing Audio view.

Another way is to create a New View at the Top Level called say "Music Videos" where the rules for File Display are just something like "[Media Sub Type]=[Music Video] ~sort=[Album Artist (auto)],[Album],[Disc #],[Track #],[Name]".  Eg there is no rule on Media Type.  Now if you import a single dummy file (anything really) and tag it as Media Type = Audio and Media Subtype = Music Video it will then appear in this view and if you select the "All Artists" from this view you will then be able to see and add columns for all Video and Audio fields. 

Let me know if this is enough info - else I'll put together a step by step guide.

[Samson]

FYI - I had a bit more of a play with this and from what I see, if you include in a single view a mix of Media Type = Audio and Video then you will be able to see and edit tags related to either.  So my earlier example works well of including "Media Sub Type = Music Video" into the existing Audio view.

This is exactly how I set it up in the first place.You still cant choose audio tags for the video files or vice versa within the AW > tags. I changed from this view to your original suggestion which I now prefer.

Another way is to create a New View at the Top Level called say "Music Videos" where the rules for File Display are just something like "[Media Sub Type]=[Music Video] ~sort=[Album Artist (auto)],[Album],[Disc #],[Track #],[Name]".  Eg there is no rule on Media Type.  Now if you import a single dummy file (anything really) and tag it as Media Type = Audio and Media Subtype = Music Video it will then appear in this view and if you select the "All Artists" from this view you will then be able to see and add columns for all Video and Audio fields. 

Thanks will also try this but as good as it may be it still doesnt allow the tags to appear in the Tag window. As you pointed out tagging in the cloumns works fine.

Let me know if this is enough info - else I'll put together a step by step guide.

The OP may need this but I am fine with your explanations above, thanks a lot.

You are a 'gentleman and a scholar'.....but am I to infer by your questionable inclusions of Aussie music that you are from Oz (like me) ? Perhaps Aussies are just natural "trouble makers" , well okay just me,lol. I also have to retract my "questionable" comment, I like Angus and Julia Stone (they grew up on Sydney North Shore my daughter tells me, Eastern suburbs is my old stomping ground  ).

Really, thanks again for all your efforts !!

[jmone]

I wont hold the "Eastern Suburbs" background against you....  and as being a You are a 'gentleman and a scholar' would you expect anything less from us North Shore type? 

[Samson]

would you expect anything less from us North Shore type? 

Given how badly we kicked your ass in every inter school sporting event, it is a credit to you, sir, that you have turned out so very, very well ! I doff my hat to you...Oi...Oi....Oi 

[Otello]

The OP may need this but I am fine with your explanations above, thanks a lot.

Ehm, the OP (me) just needs Composer and Conductor Tags enabled for musical video files.
Better: the OP just needs Video Media Type is not Classical Music unfriendly. 

Ciao
Marco

[Samson]

Ehm, the OP (me) just needs Composer and Conductor Tags enabled for musical video files.
Ciao
Marco

Oh, are you still there? (just kidding !). If I have undertood this thread,they are enabled just hidden in the Action window > Tag window (so as not to confuse you  ). Not sure if this applies to ALL tags but would appear the case for [Composer] and [Conductor].You can access these tags from the "details list pane" as explained by Jmone.

[MrC]

A simple way to add a column for a field that isn't shown for a given media type is to use an expression column:

So, for composer, just add:

  [Composer]

as the expression, and give Composer as the name.  I use [Composer] as the name so I know its an expression column.