Topic: Theater view scrolling smoothness in .194 (Read 10901 times)

rayooo · « **on:** June 04, 2013, 10:15:58 am »

Maybe something else going on... but installing .194 caused any scrolling within Theater View to be very "Jerky".
I went back to .193 and menu and album cover scrolling is silky smooth.

I'll try going to .194 again and look a bit deeper.

Win7, Asus P8Z77-M i7 3770s (using embedded graphics engine)

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** June 04, 2013, 10:19:31 am »

What OS are you on? What's your video card?

You can hit the Pause/Break key in Theater View to see some statistics like FPS, etc.

rayooo · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2013, 10:20:21 am »

sorry, got ahead of myself with not putting any additional info in initial post!. will check further.

rayooo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2013, 11:00:00 am »

rayooo · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2013, 11:24:41 am »

Interesting that immediately after the .194 install, scrolling remains smooth. It's not until first re-boot that the "jerkeyness" begins, and continues...

mathewphillips · « **Reply #5 on:** June 04, 2013, 11:30:04 am »

I am also having the same problem. Another problem introduced in this version is that "fullscreen exclusive mode for drawing" just leaves the screen black. You can go back by pressing "Esc" and then "Enter".

OS: Windows 8 64 bit
MC Version: 18.0.194
GPU: GeForce GTX 660 Ti
GPU Driver: 320.18

Matt · « **Reply #6 on:** June 04, 2013, 04:13:38 pm »

I'm not sure on this one, but I did some tuning today.

Please try the next build and let us know if it helps.

And sorry for the trouble. It's a result of switching the render model to one that should be more efficient on Windows 7 and 8 (and that also won't dead-lock due to a Win8 bug).

rayooo · « **Reply #7 on:** June 04, 2013, 04:50:33 pm »

No problem at all!

Just a bit more info (strange as it may seem)

...booting directly into theater view with .194. extremely erratic scrolling and menu movement.
Exit Theater view to desktop, then immediately reselect "theater view" from "view" pulldown.
Menu/scrolling MUCH smoother.

Re-boot into Theater view, erratic scrolling back.

Confirmed again, if booting directly to Theater view, Frame Rate display shows: approx 40FPS
..exit theater view to desktop, immediately re-enter theater view, Frame Rate Display shows approx 60FPS

Matt · « **Reply #8 on:** June 04, 2013, 05:11:49 pm »

Please try this build:
http://files.jriver.com/temp/MediaCenter180195.exe

rayooo · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2013, 06:08:50 pm »

Quote from: Matt on June 04, 2013, 05:11:49 pm

Please try this build:
http://files.jriver.com/temp/MediaCenter180195.exe

.195 seems about the same... I've got two pretty much identical systems... FWIW they both have the same issue.

I've experimented with some of the driver settings, no help. (Intel 9.18.10.3071 - 3/19/13)
still, just going to the desktop for a second and back to theater view, eliminates the issue until a re-boot back directly into Theater view.

I did try "use full screen exclusive mode for drawing" just as a quick test. I get a black screen only in that mode.
More to follow if I can figure out what's happening.

rayooo · « **Reply #10 on:** June 05, 2013, 06:31:00 pm »

Tried .195 on both machines this evening, same basic issue with very erratic scrolling/operation in Theater View.

Going back to .193, scrolling/operation in theater view is very good.

I tried all kinds of video driver settings. Tried various low/medium/high/auto video settings within MC, no change.

What continues to amaze me is that on occasion, the scrolling will be smooth, re-boot erratic, re-boot smooth again.
Each case of erratic scrolling the Frame Rate Display shows 40-50 FPS, when good, it's 60-70.

Looks like I'm the only one with this issue so I'll keep poking around to see if I can come up with anything conclusive. ?

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** June 05, 2013, 06:50:40 pm »

We're trying to work around what we think is a Win8 bug. It's not easy. Thanks for your patience.

Matt · « **Reply #12 on:** June 05, 2013, 07:00:59 pm »

To add to what Jim said, any extra data points from other machines would be appreciated.

On my home system, which has a good video card, the frame rate stays near 60fps but the scrolling sometimes _feels_ just a little strange since this change. It's like it jumps a little more than I'd expect (like maybe a frame dropped). However, I can't reproduce it reliably.

I also tested on a 2500k with no video card (HD3000), and it seems to be working great.

Thinking about it more, I wonder if flip presentation changes the number of queued frames? When we build a frame, we use the current time (build time) instead of the time when the frame will be shown (present time) since we don't really know the present time. If frames are being accepted / presented in a lumpy fashion, we might not be moving the frame time smoothly.

We'll keep digging. Like I said, any extra testing or data from anyone would be appreciated.

Boltron · « **Reply #13 on:** June 05, 2013, 08:09:41 pm »

I also have the same issue with latest build, was OK before. Win8 with GTX660.

rayooo · « **Reply #14 on:** June 05, 2013, 09:24:48 pm »

I did roll back to 9.17.10.2932 (Intel 4000 series drivers) 12/12/2012 same issue
I went back to most recent: 9.18.10.3071 (3/19/2013)

It still astounds me as I can boot 2 or 3 times in a row with no problem.
Then on 4th boot immediately have the issue, boot 3 or 4 more times with the issue.
...then have a few more boots with no issue.
One of those cases where if someone was telling me this on the phone I'd not believe them!

I did check my desktop computer. (GTX570 i7 3960X) Can't really say the issue shows up on this machine at all.

THANKS Everyone!!

More to follow if I can figure something out..

Matt · « **Reply #15 on:** June 06, 2013, 09:03:00 am »

If you are experiencing this problem, please test this build and report if it's any better or worse:
http://files.jriver.com/temp/MediaCenter180196.exe

Thanks.

rayooo · « **Reply #16 on:** June 06, 2013, 10:34:51 am »

Tried .196 on both systems.... still happening.

I disconnected the DACs (USB Devices) for this latest test just to be sure. (not that I need to play music anyway to see the issue)

Thanks again for all the help !! I'm going to try a few more things.

Belarathon · « **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2013, 06:53:05 pm »

I can confirm....still happening for me as well.

Nvidia GT430, W8 x64

I thought it was Xonar ASIO nastiness. Glad to find out it's not.

rayooo · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2013, 09:07:55 pm »

So I went ahead, left .196 installed and started using MC.

Boot up - directly into Theater - scroll around and pick an album, or smartlist - very "jerky" scrolling display of album covers and menus.

select play to initiate selected album or playlist. scrolling now VERY SMOOTH!

press stop.... jerky scrolling.... press play.... silky smooth.... press stop... well, you get the idea.

'not making this up, I promise!

Belarathon · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2013, 09:36:21 pm »

Quote from: rayooo on June 06, 2013, 09:07:55 pm

So I went ahead, left .196 installed and started using MC.
press stop.... jerky scrolling.... press play.... silky smooth.... press stop... well, you get the idea.

Ditto.

Chauncey · « **Reply #20 on:** June 07, 2013, 01:30:01 pm »

I'm having the same issue. Win 7, Intel 4000.

Matt · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2013, 01:35:29 pm »

Quote from: rayooo on June 06, 2013, 09:07:55 pm

Boot up - directly into Theater - scroll around and pick an album, or smartlist - very "jerky" scrolling display of album covers and menus.

select play to initiate selected album or playlist. scrolling now VERY SMOOTH!

press stop.... jerky scrolling.... press play.... silky smooth.... press stop... well, you get the idea.

What type of playback (WASAPI, ASIO, etc.)?

Are you using an audio visualization? Does changing it matter?

rayooo · « **Reply #22 on:** June 07, 2013, 02:40:59 pm »

WASAPI Event (Esoteric D-07X)

No visualizations or other at all. album art on a black background.

It's just very strange, basically every time I boot it's a little different.
Just now, booted into Theater View, immediately noticed extremely jerky menu/album art scrolling.

Selected Play, everything smoothed out a little, but not nearly as good as .193 and prior.

I just can't seem to get a handle on this.
Only thing for sure is leaving Theater view to desktop for a second and back to theater view, fixes everything.

UPDATE:
Did same test using Kernel Streaming, same basic improvement.
that is, menu scrolling in Theater view improves when actually playing back track(s)
Stopping Playback, worsens the menu/album art scrolling quality.

Belarathon · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2013, 02:56:06 pm »

Quote from: rayooo on June 07, 2013, 02:40:59 pm

I just can't seem to get a handle on this.
Only thing for sure is leaving Theater view to desktop for a second and back to theater view, fixes everything.

Same here. There's no rhyme or reason, but definitely been just the last few builds.

ASIO, 50ms latency on Xonar.

I used to have terrible scrolling issues with the Xonar and MC, but upping the latency resolved that completely.

rayooo · « **Reply #24 on:** June 15, 2013, 11:03:21 pm »

Finally figured this out.... I'd had Aero turned off (Selected some windows classic theme for desktop.

Enabling the default Windows7 theme (with Aero or whatever it's called) ON, then the scrolling in .194 and up is back to normal.

I didn't go through the themes to specifically determine what works and doesn't.
In my case, Windows Classic and One other without transparency cause the jerky scrolling in MC. ...go figure.

Matt · « **Reply #25 on:** June 16, 2013, 12:49:45 pm »

Quote from: rayooo on June 15, 2013, 11:03:21 pm

Finally figured this out.... I'd had Aero turned off (Selected some windows classic theme for desktop.

Enabling the default Windows7 theme (with Aero or whatever it's called) ON, then the scrolling in .194 and up is back to normal.

Good detective work.

The new flip presentation system works with Aero, so I'm not really sure what it'll do if Aero is off. We'll try to detect this and not use flip presentation in these cases.

Boltron · « **Reply #26 on:** June 17, 2013, 08:15:09 am »

I found that on my Win8 HTPC if I set my TV to 23Hz default refresh rate then I have the scrolling problem. If I set the TV to 60 Hz it works fine. I prefer to have it at 23Hz so madVR doesn't need to change the rate for movies but at least I have a work around.

adamt · « **Reply #27 on:** June 18, 2013, 11:35:58 am »

I tried enabling and disabling Windows Aero and it had very little effect on theater view. If anything, "Milliseconds per draw" was slightly faster with Aero disabled. Still can't reproduce scrolling problem.

rayooo · « **Reply #28 on:** June 18, 2013, 01:01:10 pm »

Quote from: adamt on June 18, 2013, 11:35:58 am

I tried enabling and disabling Windows Aero and it had very little effect on theater view. If anything, "Milliseconds per draw" was slightly faster with Aero disabled. Still can't reproduce scrolling problem.

I wonder if it was something other than Aero itself that I'd stumbled upon. To get it bad for me, selecting "windows classic" as desktop theme kills theater view scrolling every time. Selecting "Windows 7" (Aero theme) fixes it every time.

...I didn't specifically try enabling/disabling Aero itself. I might poke around a bit more. (I'm using Intel CPU/Chipset Graphics 4000 series)

Belarathon · « **Reply #29 on:** June 18, 2013, 01:14:21 pm »

Windows 8 here. And as far as I can tell, Aero really isn't Aero anymore. I notice the stuttering more when scrolling through Genres more than anything else. Oddly enough, they have smaller thumbnails than any other category.

Daveyravey · « **Reply #30 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:20:25 am »

windows 8 here too and running @50hz seems worse jerkier than 60hz....

Belarathon · « **Reply #31 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:33:29 am »

I'm not having any trouble with .206 at all.

Daveyravey · « **Reply #32 on:** June 30, 2013, 12:21:25 pm »

Im afraid im still seeing jerkiness whilst scrolling through the tabs etc almost as if the theaterview is set to the wrong refresh rate.
I run a plasma panel @ 1080 p 50 Hertz what i have noticed if i default to 720p 50hz everything is silky smooth..I am running an AMD 7750 Graphics card.

Any thoughts? ideas if i go back to an earlier version on MC18 everything is silky smooth!

Daveyravey · « **Reply #33 on:** July 01, 2013, 12:21:10 pm »

I just went back to .193 and menu and album cover scrolling is now back to being silky smooth again so i can only assume this problem is to do with AMD graphics hardware as it looks as if its fixed for other people
but just to reiterate i am running the latest amd drivers 11.6 and if i install .206 everything becomes jerky, remove .206 and install .193 everything is smooth again!!!

rayooo · « **Reply #34 on:** July 01, 2013, 01:57:10 pm »

In my case I could definitely break it by going into Windows "Personalize" and picking the theme "Windows 7 basic".

Picking any of the "Aero" themes, fixes it.

In this case the issue was related I think to an issue being addressed in Windows 8, but I've lost track.

I know when using Intel embedded graphics, below 4000 seemed overall a bit more jerky, 4000 better and the newer 4500 better still.

Chauncey · « **Reply #35 on:** July 08, 2013, 11:07:49 pm »

I am still having this issue. I've tried selecting different themes in WIN7 but it did nothing. I run Windows 7 with an Intel4000HD. The signal is sent to an Oppo 103-BDP. The display is a Sony HDTV. I've tried everything I can think of, but scrolling in Theater View is still extremely jerky. All drivers are up to date and I'm running the latest build.

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** July 09, 2013, 07:11:38 am »

Try Intel support. There was a similar Theater View problem (3d drawing) recently that was fixed by updating Intel software. It should be in the top 50 threads here.

Matt · « **Reply #37 on:** July 09, 2013, 10:10:33 am »

If you're still having problems, what is reported when you push the Pause/Break key while in Theater View? Does it report that it's drawing slowly or struggling to keep up?

Chauncey · « **Reply #38 on:** July 09, 2013, 11:24:41 am »

I've updated the Intel driver. I will research the 3d drawing issue to see if there is anything else I can try. I am at work now but will post the Pause/Break report as soon as I can.

Thanks.

Daveyravey · « **Reply #39 on:** July 09, 2013, 11:38:28 am »

On my amd hd7550 card theatre view is set to 60hz but fps is all over the place averaging around 26-30 fps

Going back to .193 fps is 57-60 fps

Chauncey · « **Reply #40 on:** July 09, 2013, 06:06:12 pm »

Quote from: Matt on July 09, 2013, 10:10:33 am

If you're still having problems, what is reported when you push the Pause/Break key while in Theater View? Does it report that it's drawing slowly or struggling to keep up?

I checked the numbers and here's what I found when I'm not scrolling through cover art:

Frames per second: 64-74 (goal of 60) NOTE: the fps numbers were constantly changing but this is the range
Milliseconds per draw: 1.9 - 2.0 (capable of 490-525 fps at 100%). NOTE: these numbers were constantly changing too
Exclusive: no; Flip: yes

Now, when I scroll through the covers I noticed the fps figure plummet to the teens and the milliseconds per draw jump to as high as 50-60 when the cover jerks or skips into place.

I have no idea what these numbers mean, but hopefully they can help pinpoint the problem!

Matt · « **Reply #41 on:** July 09, 2013, 06:24:11 pm »

Are you saying that it's perfectly smooth as you move the cursor around in the list, and only slows down when the list scrolls?

If you build all thumbnails (Options > Tree & View > Build missing thumbnails...) does it make a difference?

Chauncey · « **Reply #42 on:** July 09, 2013, 07:03:03 pm »

Quote from: Matt on July 09, 2013, 06:24:11 pm

Are you saying that it's perfectly smooth as you move the cursor around in the list, and only slows down when the list scrolls?

If you build all thumbnails (Options > Tree & View > Build missing thumbnails...) does it make a difference?

I'm building thumbnails now. I'll let you know if it does anything.

The selected album/movie cover skips/jerks into place as it centers itself after scrolling. It happens during the cover flow list style. Does that make sense?

Chauncey · « **Reply #43 on:** July 10, 2013, 02:43:03 pm »

Quote from: Matt on July 09, 2013, 06:24:11 pm

Are you saying that it's perfectly smooth as you move the cursor around in the list, and only slows down when the list scrolls?

If you build all thumbnails (Options > Tree & View > Build missing thumbnails...) does it make a difference?

Thumbnails built. It made no difference.

Matt · « **Reply #44 on:** July 10, 2013, 02:57:15 pm »

Quote from: Chauncey on July 10, 2013, 02:43:03 pm

Thumbnails built. It made no difference.

Was it faster in an old build for you, or is it possible it has always been this way?

You might be seeing something totally different than daveyravey1972.

Also, are flat grid style lists slow, or only flow-style 3d lists? The flow style lists load the full resolution image in when you stop on an item, and it's possible this just lags drawing a little if you use extra high resolution artwork.

Daveyravey · « **Reply #45 on:** July 11, 2013, 12:35:41 am »

Matt not sure if this will help you track down the problem but I have now removed my amd hd7750 and running just Intel hd5000 graphics. On the latest build everything is now silky smooth!!!

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Author Topic: Theater view scrolling smoothness in .194 (Read 10901 times)