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[Samson]

IMO MC needs a simplified Wizard-based user interface for beginners and those that just find sophisticated computer programs too complicated. It could be disabled for advanced users.

MC is sophisticated IMO, it is part of its very attraction….for advanced users and tech savvy users. This sophistication is IMO a source of frustration to many novices and at times, neophytes and wanna-be power users , like me. I disagree with any claims that MC is relatively straight forward or intuitive for beginners but even for those that happily find it to be so, how would it hurt to provide Wizards for those that do not ?

Paraphrasing one of the admins here, it is difficult to create a simple program that has all the advanced features people want. I am not trying to be controversial here but in such circumstances, IMO, you then need to maintain an up-to-date and clear self contained documentation in the form of How-To and user guides. IMO the Wiki nor "Start here" nor the current "User Manual" nor the forum achieves this. And no, I cannot see why this should be too difficult for programs with frequent nightly re-builds.

In lieu of documentation, or to supplement it, Video How-to guides might be produced.

In lieu of any of the above, or to supplement it, then it seems reasonable that at least a Start-up wizard-based interface be offered.

This could/should include an opening welcome GUI with a selection of Wizards like "What do You Want to Do ?…" :
   • Import My Media Files
   • Rip My Cd's
   • Organize My Media Files ..( with pre-sets and an image of the layout)
   • Setup My Video and TV Preferences
   • Setup My Audio Preferences
   • Play My Media Files
   • Etc
  
Each wizard with an advanced button for the more adventurous taking you to the relevant area in the Standard Interface.

Re "Import Your Media Files", yes I am aware that MC does this at installation (unless you're quick enough to catch it and stop it) but importing every media file type from everywhere can cause more problems than it solves. A simple wizard IMO is the way to go.

Other programs do it and make it dead simple (see screenshots) of Paragon Hard Disk Manager.

Cheers,
David aka Samson (re Regina Spektor song, but that’s another story)

[fitbrit]

Some Wizards might be a good idea. One can imagine what the main tasks that a user would want to achieve are. Like you said, and additionally:
Import media
Set up Video
Set up Audio
Set up Zones
Set up Media Network
Basic views for standard and theater view
Smarlists
Navigating the panes, tabs, trees and split screens

Alternatively, a collection of video how-tos would be a great addition too. Next time I reformat a drive, reinstall Windows and MC, I will try to capture what I am doing in the initial MC set up. I think the idea of Wizards needs consideration, but there are likely some reasons I can't think of why it will not get that. The video how-tos will also likely have to come from the user community.

[marko]

For me, the problem with the videos idea, attractive as it may seem, is that they could be out of date almost as soon as they are posted. Then what do you do...

Keep the old ones there for the benefit of those that haven't updated or upgraded, and post new, up-to-date ones?

You would need to stay on top of them too, as well as fending off a tsunami of requests for videos of just about anything MC related you can think of. I think the workload would be quite substantial

The fresh install, auto import thing is frowned upon by many, but it's there, and it is what it is. Personally, I think it should at least be stopped from importing media that resides in our 'Program Files' folders.

[Samson]

One can imagine what the main tasks that a user would want to achieve are.

They are the perennial topics when you look back through the forums.

there are likely some reasons I can't think of why it will not get that.

I think Marko is right when he said in relation to How-to-videos

I think the workload would be quite substantial

...and perhaps this might apply to updating Wizards also. However we are firstly talking about a finite number of the most obvious topics. Secondly, it is 'swings and roundabouts' in that efforts here may reduce workload in addressing newcomers repeatedly asking the same questions.

Wizards obviously need to be modified whenever there is a relevant change in the program's coding. I am not sure how often or difficult this would be.

Videos may go out of date but usually they maintain some kind of generic utility. Just enough to be able to adapt what you see in a dated video to the new changes in the current program.Heck, I learnt tons of Photoshop from 'outdated' how-to guides.

Some people learn from visually presented (graphics or video) information far better than verbal and/or written information.These abilities use different parts of the brain.We specifically assess these cognitive functions eg following stroke.

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the Wiki and forum, it happens to be my preferred way of learning , a language based information 'scraper' if you like. Others will find this incompatible with their learning style.

[astromo]

This is my take on the matter.

My concern with setup wizards is that there's an manhour overhead to set them up and keep them up to date. I'm guessing here. The IT developers out there can comment on this point. They do make sense for simple items where the probability of procedural change is low, e.g. the TV EPG setup guide.

This sort of effort for complex tasks filled with nuance, is (for me) a resource that simply works:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80253.0
Not only are the steps set out but it includes discussion around what's important and not so.

I've been able to navigate MC using the guide above and achieve a meaningful result. This has unlocked a feature set that was hitherto, largely a mystery. Link resources like this to the Wiki so that they're not lost in the depths of the forum. For me that's a time to pop the champagne corks and exchange Australorp chooks.

Apply the Pareto principle and give me substantial content first, with the bells and whistles of automation as a follow up activity for a rainy day.

[Samson]

This sort of effort for complex tasks filled with nuance, is (for me) a resource that simply works:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80253.0
Not only are the steps set out but it includes discussion around what's important and not so.

Hey Astromo, I agree ,The madvr guide is stellar, as is Marko's Customise Current View v17 Expounded . I note it was written for MC 17 but still incredibly useful. Amalgamating these types of documents into a self-contained thematically and logically flowing user manual would be great. I don't think it would be mutually exclusive to Wizards but you do reinforce Marko's point about workload.

I see the pareto principle applying differently here. Wizards covering less than 20% of the content of MC would satisfy over 80% of peoples needs.

...and I don't need an excuse to pop the champagne and eat some chook, well New Zealand Sav Blanc anyway, speaking of which its that time downunder 

[astromo]

Hey Astromo, I agree ,The madvr guide is stellar, as is Marko's Customise Current View v17 Expounded . I note it was written for MC 17 but still incredibly useful. Amalgamating these types of documents into a self-contained thematically and logically flowing user manual would be great. I don't think it would be mutually exclusive to Wizards but you do reinforce Marko's point about workload.

I see the pareto principle applying differently here. Wizards covering less than 20% of the content of MC would satisfy over 80% of peoples needs.

...and I don't need an excuse to pop the champagne and eat some chook, well New Zealand Sav Blanc anyway, speaking of which its that time downunder 

All viewpoints are valid and can always prod matters in the right direction. I do find wizards very helpful, however they can struggle to answer the burning question of "why?". That's why 6233638's effort with madVR is a piece of gold for me.

I think that the developers that I osmose from a number of Jim H's comments is that the MC "manual" is the Wiki. Regarding how it's formatted, well that's another level of refinement again.

Enjoy the Kiwi Sav Blanc. I'm off for a curry washed down with some Indian Pale Ale (kind of fits).

[JimH]

Sweeping re-designs of the program are unlikely to happen.  Minor tweaks will.  Even not so minor tweaks.

Setup is a balance between giving expert users access to everything they might want, and making some decisions for new, often inexperienced users.  

The import at the beginning is a perfect example.  We could stop and ask 20 questions, but that would kill the experience for many users.   So we count down 45 seconds and flash the screen while we're waiting, and then go ahead.  Still some people miss that.  This results in a library that may have more than you want, but it does have everything you do want.

Wizards work well in some situations, not in others.  We've added them a couple of times.  The Action Window uses simple wizards, for example.

We've discussed adding a new screen at the beginning that asks what media types the user would like MC to manage.  We could then make the program audio only, for example.  But this adds a step at the beginning, when users are often still uncertain about whether they want MC at all.  It also adds support later, when users wonder why their program doesn't do video or images or TV.  So far, we've chosen not to do this.  We may try it some day.

I'll let this thread run a while, then lock it.

[JimH]

For me, the problem with the videos idea, attractive as it may seem, is that they could be out of date almost as soon as they are posted. Then what do you do...

Keep the old ones there for the benefit of those that haven't updated or upgraded, and post new, up-to-date ones?

You would need to stay on top of them too, as well as fending off a tsunami of requests for videos of just about anything MC related you can think of. I think the workload would be quite substantial

The fresh install, auto import thing is frowned upon by many, but it's there, and it is what it is. Personally, I think it should at least be stopped from importing media that resides in our 'Program Files' folders.

Agree with most of what you've said.

The Program Files thing should be revisited.  We formerly did it because some programs stored media files there.  That may no longer be the case.

[JimH]

I think that the developers that I osmose from a number of Jim H's comments is that the MC "manual" is the Wiki. Regarding how it's formatted, well that's another level of refinement again.

Structure isn't as important now, since search works so well.  Try a Google search on any MC topic and you'll find a lot of material.

Searches have changed the way we find information.  I don't ever use a phone book, for example.  Or a dictionary.  I rarely use a manual, and when do, they often don't answer the question I have.  Search almost always works.

[locust]

For me, the problem with the videos idea, attractive as it may seem, is that they could be out of date almost as soon as they are posted. Then what do you do...

Keep the old ones there for the benefit of those that haven't updated or upgraded, and post new, up-to-date ones?

You would need to stay on top of them too, as well as fending off a tsunami of requests for videos of just about anything MC related you can think of. I think the workload would be quite substantial

The fresh install, auto import thing is frowned upon by many, but it's there, and it is what it is. Personally, I think it should at least be stopped from importing media that resides in our 'Program Files' folders.

I think that keeping the old ones would help an interested new user to see how to program has evolved. If the community made videos I really think they would be useful but it depends on how the videos are organised wherever they are uploaded to..

For instance if they were directly uploaded on the wiki they could be organised with a hierarchical structure using tags and categories.. The main version of MC would be a required tag as would be which category the video falls into i.e. importing media. Another optional tag would be sub version if someone wanted to make a video specifically about a feature that was introduced in 18.0.195. And there would be one more tag that beta users or admin could only tag would be this video is obsolete as of (version number) because the feature was changed or removed. Or even the opposite a tag specifying which versions the video is compatible with. Haven't quite thought about this in depth so I might have missed something or went wrong somewhere but something like this seems plausible and useful just as long as it is not over complicated and easy to maintain..

Then the video page could have a few different auto generated hierarchical lists made like

Categories+
              +Main Version
                                +Sub Version
              +Compatible With
                                 +Main version
              +Obsolete
                                 +as of

 
or
Main Version+
                 +Categories
                 +Sub Version

and so on

and whichever other way that would make it easy for someone to find a relevant video.

I do think the would would be substantial getting it done, but once all main areas are covered it wouldn't be so bad, it could even be a hybrid page tagging not just videos, but threads people have made regarding certain topics..

I quite like the idea but I'm probably underestimating how much work is involved but none the less it seems like a nice way even if it take a long time to grow into something useful.

[fitbrit]

The madvr guide is stellar, as is Marko's Customise Current View v17 Expounded .

Holy darn! Why had I never seen that before? Thanks for the link to a great piece of work.

[Samson]

Structure isn't as important now, since search works so well.  Try a Google search on any MC topic and you'll find a lot of material.

Jim,respectfully Google is not a substitute for a user manual !

Sweeping re-designs of the program are unlikely to happen.  Minor tweaks will.  Even not so minor tweaks.

Setup is a balance between giving expert users access to everything they might want, and making some decisions for new, often inexperienced users.

A wizard interface which experienced users could disable would solve this IMO

We've discussed adding a new screen at the beginning that asks what media types the user would like MC to manage.  We could then make the program audio only, for example.  But this adds a step at the beginning, when users are often still uncertain about whether they want MC at all.  It also adds support later, when users wonder why their program doesn't do video or images or TV.  So far, we've chosen not to do this.  We may try it some day.

they just re-run the wizard, problem solved

I think that keeping the old ones would help an interested new user to see how to program has evolved. If the community made videos I really think they would be useful but it depends on how the videos are organised wherever they are uploaded to..

Yes, I agree and there a few ways of going about it.  If asked I am sure there would be many members willing to post How-to-videos.