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classical tag

[filippo]

I am just beginning to rip my set of classic CDs in WAV to get the best quality. it is very tedious to have a 'standard' simple file organisation.
this is the example:
this is what JRiver makes:
\\NAS\media\MUSIC\Classical\Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert Von Karajan\Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart,Große Messe C-Moll Kv 427 (417a)\Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert Von Karajan - Wolfgang Amadeus  Mozart, Große Messe C-Moll Kv 4.... gloria_ cum sancto .wav

and this what would be enough:
\\NAS\media\MUSIC\Classical\Mozart,Wolfgang Amadeus\Große Messe C-Moll Kv 427 (417a)(Karajan, Berliner)

it is therefore necessary to be able to organize the NAS file before ripping and not after as well as the tags and in a big window.

somebody an idea?

[BillT]

You'll have to do two things. Change the title of the CD to match what you want rather than the title found on the internet and make MC to the location that you wish to use. The settings are in Options/File location and you would want to change the Folder rule to suit your set up - presumably the base location is set as you need it to be set.

Unfortunately classical music has no standardised tagging system, so I don't think that there's a simple automated way of doing what you want.

The way I do it is to set the Folder rule to [Album] and then make the location point to the folder that you want to keep the CD in; in your example it would probably be \\NAS\media\MUSIC\Classical\Mozart,Wolfgang Amadeus\ and you would have to rename the CD to Große Messe C-Moll Kv 427 (417a)(Karajan, Berliner). If your filing system is a simple \Composer\CD title scheme then you could retain the [Artist]\[Album]\ Folder rule and edit the Artist field for the CD to the composer value that you use as well as editing the CD title before ripping.

[AndyU]

 I would definitely NOT use the artist or the album artist field for composer! Artists are artists, composers are composers, so leave them be. J River has fantastically configurable view schemes so you will have no problems getting views of Classical by composer, Classical by artist, Classical x Composer x Catalogue number .. whatever schemes you want are yours. As far as the folder structure is concerned use any convenient one and then forget about it; tags are a far more versatile way of attributing your media. And do you really want to use WAV? All your tagging work may be lost if you move them to some other environment, as not all players read WAV tags, whereas if you use FLAC then the tags will move with your media. There is a reasonably decent argument for splitting cds that contain say two works by different composers - ie the common pairing of the Beethoven and Mendlessohn Violin Concertsos - into two 'albums', one for each composer. Or you could not abandon the construct of 'album' and just go for 'work'. Many possibilities. It is very easy to add your own tags to the JRiver library and mess about. You have the option of making the tags reside in the library only, which can speed things up, especially if you have a NAS. Once you've got the tags to your liking, then you can write them back to the media if you want.

[MrC]

An alternative to having to modify your longish Names, Albums, etc. for ripping.

Create yourself a new user field, called, say Album Folder Location.  You'll use this in your Audio path rules to define the path (segment) for newly created audio files (such as when ripping).  The rule can test emptiness of the field, and use simpler (e.g. Artist\Album) rules, or use Album Folder Location otherwise.

This way, you can use the Tag Action Window when required to fill in a value before you start the rip, and this will locate your files where you want, retaining the more complex Names, etc.

[AndyU]

You'll also need to consider how you want to handle collection or recital type albums, where there might be pieces by many different composers but typically one artist. You probably will want the folder structure to be based on the artist rather than the composer, but tag the individual tracks with the correct composer, and possibly the whole album as a collection. You may or may not want the individual tracks to show up under Composer based views. My standard Classical view is by Composer if the album is not a collection and by Album Artist if it is, so I get  Bach, Balsom, Beethoven ..Bonney .. Brahms etc as my second level. Suits me.

[BillT]

No, I wouldn't do it that way either. The OP asked a question about getting his CDs in the folders structure that he wants and I made a 2 suggestions that would achieve that.

I don't think that a /Composer/Album folder structure is a particularly good way of filing CDs if you have a large collection, but is OK if you only have a small one. A rational folder structure is good if, for any reason, you want to manage your music without using JRMCs excellent database. If you just let it use the more or less random folder structure that MC will generate then you'll have major problems finding things outside MC.

My folder structure splits into genres, like chamber music or opera, then by composer and album and a similar structure for recitals with multiple composers. The view schemes more or less replicate that so that I can play the album as originally presented, but with additional schemes that let me select individual works by composer, orchestra or conductor etc. I don't use the Artist field at all. That works for me; no doubt others would find that unwieldy.

[AndyU]

Strikes me that the o/p's belief that WAV offers the best sound quality should be questioned, particularly if that is leading him to depend on a folder structure to navigate his music.

[filippo]

many thks to you. I am going to try...
I have just bought the new classe audio cp800...anyhow what a time consuming activity...

and I am wondering if wav is really better than FLAC...

[6233638]

and I am wondering if wav is really better than FLAC...

FLAC, ALAC, and other "lossless" formats are losslessly compressed. This means that the audio data is identical to uncompressed formats such as WAV and AIFF when decoded, but you can save ~50% disk space with these formats due to the compression. (think of them like ZIP files for audio) This is also useful when storing files on portable devices, or accessing the files via a networked device.

WAV typically has poor metadata/tagging support, so AIFF is preferred as an uncompressed format, but generally FLAC or ALAC are the most popular formats to use, and both have very good metadata support.



As for how classical music is tagged, I still haven't quite decided on everything yet, but I generally put the Conductor in the Artist field.


I'm not sure which of my tags are custom ones now, but for classical music, I am also using:
Composer, Composition, Composition Name, Conductor, Movement, Opus #, and Orchestra tags.


An example might be:
Composer: Ludvig van Beethoven
Composition: Symphony № 3 in E-flat major
Composition Name: Eroica
Conductor: Herbert von Karajan
Movement: 2
Name: Marcia funebre: Adagio assai
Opus #: 55
Orchestra: Berliner Philharmoniker

I then have expressions set up to display this as: Ludwig van Beethoven, Symphony № 3 in E-flat major, Op. 55 “Eroica” ‒ Ⅱ. Marcia funebre: Adagio assai
One of my classical views is set up to group by composer, then composition, rather than albums.


Media Center doesn't care about your file structure, so that doesn't actually matter. And as long as the files are imported in Media Center's library, there is a very powerful renaming tool that will rearrange where your files are located on the disk with ease.

The advantage of splitting out all this information into separate fields, rather than simply filling out the track name as "Symphony № 3 in E-flat major, Op. 55 “Eroica” ‒ Ⅱ. Marcia funebre: Adagio assai" is that I can omit many of these fields from the filename to avoid running into the 260 character limit.

[JimH]

The device you play to will receive exactly the same stream of data whether you play FLAC or WAV or any other lossless format.  No difference.

[Listener]

filippo,

Unless you really know why using WAV files is essential for you and how to get tags into WAV files, you should rip CDs to FLAC files now.

Take some time to gain your own understanding of ripping CDs, tagging the resulting files and viewing your files before you plunge in ripping your entire library.

JRiver can be set up to begin ripping a CD as soon as it is recognized in the CD/DVD drive. (auto-rip).  Turn auto-rip off so that you can inspect the tag values the ripping software finds.  Edit anything you need to change before you start the ripping process.  The edited tags

For classical music, I use the following tags

rip_to_folder - I manually type in a folder name for all the ripped files from a CD.  The folder.jpg filke with cover art will go in this folder along with the secure ripping log file.

Composer - a short form of the composer name goes here. (e.g. "Mozart" or "Bach, JS")

Work Name - name of a piece of music in a form I can recognize (e.g. "Symphony No. 38 'Prague'")

Artist - the performers: soloist_conductor_orchestra (e.g. "Fleisher_Szell_Cleveland Orchestra")  I use short, easily recognizable forms of names. 

Name - something to identify this track (e.g. "1 - Allegro").

Genre - "Classical"

Sub_genre - something to separate groups of works for composers like Bach, Haydn or Mozart who wrote lots of works.  I use
"Chamber", "Concerto, Piano", Concerto, Violin", "Orchestral", "Piano" and a few others.

Version - something to distinguish different recordings of the same work with the same performers.  (e.g. "Original Jacket set" or "mono")

I use a few other tags for special cases.

Here is a JRiver view I've used for classical music for years.  It is a "pane" view that lets me see lists of composers, works, artists and versions at one time.  I can select  one or more values for any of those tags in whatever order I choose.



Even with a good sized monitor, screen real-estate is a constraint.  I chose the tags and the view to use that space efficiently.  Your  choices may be different from mine.  Take the time to learn more about JRiver's capabilities and what you want to do with them before plunging in.

There are some good forum threads about using JRiver for classical music.  Search and you will find more advice from a number of people.

Bill

[filippo]

thanks again to all.
what I see it is that for classical music there is a big amount of tagging necessary anyhow (wav or FLAC)...!
so better not to loose the metadata.

now that I have done most of my pop and equal music in wav, how to convert in flac without loosing anything? other question.

[Frobozz]

Classical is tricky.  There are many different opinions and methods on how to tag and organize classical.  All of them addressing the problem differently.  Which is best or correct depends on your goals and the limitations of your various media players.

My goals are:
1) Keep the tracks all together as they are on the CD.  I'm a CD/album person.  I buy as albums.  I think of music in terms of what albums I have.  Even if you buy classical as a download from a place like HDTracks or Linn Records the music is still packaged and bundled as an album.  So I keep it together as an album even if there are multiple composers on the album.

2) My library and tagging needs to work with other media players and environments, not just JRiver Media Center.  This includes working with dumb media players like can be found in car head units, portable players, NAS devices, home receivers that allow you to plug in a USB thumb drive, etc.  The dumb media players can be really dumb and only know of "Artist" "Album" and "Track" as if everything is rock or pop music.  My classical needs to fit within that limitation.  This is a significant compromise.  But ultimately makes my classical music more accessible in other media players.

As luck would have it, MusicBrainz also has the same goals for how to tag classical music.  So I've mostly followed their guides and ideas for classical music tagging.

Here's some pages over at MusicBrainz explaining how they tag classical music:
MusicBrainz Classical Music
The old MusicBrainz Classical Style Guide
The new MusicBrainz Classical Style Guide
MusicBrainz Classical Music FAQ

MusicBrainz has been trying to define how best to tag classical for years.  It's not an easy simple problem.  I started my tagging back with their "old" classical style guide, so that's what I have stuck with.  There are merits to the changes they made with the new classical style guide.

Basics:
Put the composer in the [Artist] tag
Put the title on the CD in the [Album] tag
Put the name of the piece and the movement in the [Title] tag

For example:
Artist = Beethoven
Album = Symphonies 1 & 6 (Roger Norrington)
Title for track 1 = Symphony No. 1, Op. 21: I. Adagio molto - Allegro con brio
Title for track 2 = Symphony No. 1, Op. 21: II. Andante cantibile con moto

And then fill in the Conductor tag
You can define your own tags for Orchestra or Performer
Fill in other predefined or custom tags as you see fit

[filippo]

Frobozz!
muzicbrainz tagging is probably the less time consuming way...i will apply!
anyhow Classe audio stated clearly that bit exact wav files should be the base of ripping as they represent the original cd.
thanks to all for your explanations.

 

[Arindelle]

Interesting post ... thanks for sharing how others tag "classical", people.

anyhow Classe audio stated clearly that bit exact wav files should be the base of ripping as they represent the original cd.

@filippo - However, this bothers me a bit .... seems like a misunderstanding .... could you link where Classe said this, please. Disregarding for the moment what, I believe, the majority would say about this ... other manufacturers of high end gear (Linn, Naim, as examples), do not share Classe's opinion.

Are you aware that you can revert to wav from flac without any generational loss (and vice-versa), like a zip file for a word document? Additionally, metadata is significantly limited for wav files .... so if you have already ripped to wav you can still convert to flac or go back to wav from flac (you wil lose some tag info this way though) -- it is indeed lossless, and not to be confused with "lossy" compression (like Mp3's)

Although Wikipedia may not always be the ultimate reference, this is pretty concise without going into detail

Uncompressed audio formats encode both sound and silence with the same number of bits per unit of time. Encoding an uncompressed minute of absolute silence produces a file of the same size as encoding an uncompressed minute of music. In a lossless compressed format, however, the music would occupy a smaller portion of the file and the silence would take up almost no space at all.
Lossless compression formats enable the original uncompressed data to be recreated exactly. They include the common[5] FLAC, WavPack, Monkey's Audio, ALAC (Apple Lossless). They provide a compression ratio of about 2:1 (i.e. their files take up half the space of the originals).

Maybe try and do an an "ears" A/B test before you rip your entire collection?

BTW, certainly not trying to start a debate here wav vs flac   Just so happy I didn't rip all of my cd's into wav first, thought it might be helpful for the OP.

[filippo]

the document is free for download on their site.
Filippo

[6233638]

the document is free for download on their site.
Filippo

http://www.classeaudio.com/downloads/pdfs/CP-800-AppleWindowsGuide-final.pdf

I don’t see anything recommending WAV over lossless formats. (though they do recommend ASIO4All, oh dear…)