Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[goatherder]

+ 1

Touch is dead unless it's an iPad specific app that actually works.

This could only come from someone firmly indoctrinated in the world of Apple, but I'll humour you. The point of W8 touch is that it affords additional options, provided the application is engineered for it (in the same way as a standard application ported to the iPad doesn't work, or why Metro apps designed for entirely touch input can leave mouse users frustrated). By having all the input options available I can mix and match prodding and touchpadding/mousing on a W8 machine depending on what I'm running it on, or how I'm running it. It's suited for smarter use of whatever you have, and ironically it suits those of us who like to get more done on the move, than the "fat pen and stand keyboard cover that weighs more than the tablet" sporting brigade.  

MC is still stuck firmly in the era of mice - arguably it's not even that trackpad-friendly at times. Which is why I'm asking.

[Vocalpoint]

This could only come from someone firmly indoctrinated in the world of Apple, but I'll humour you.

You should know I am about as "anti-Apple" as one man could possibly be. But I just got an iPad 2 handed down to me - and I know when something works well and the iPad is it.

The point of W8 touch is that it affords additional options, provided the application is engineered for it (in the same way as a standard application ported to the iPad doesn't work, or why Metro apps designed for entirely touch input can leave mouse users frustrated). By having all the input options available I can mix and match prodding and touchpadding/mousing on a W8 machine depending on what I'm running it on, or how I'm running it.

Clearly understood - but just because Microsoft suddenly decided to join the touch party by complete bastardizing their "bread and butter" system into the hideous UI disaster than it is - does not mean it works nor does it mean that companies like JR should fall over themselves to suddenly make their apps "touch friendly"

MC is still stuck firmly in the era of mice - arguably it's not even that trackpad-friendly at times. Which is why I'm asking.

Well - I am glad the MC is still firmly mouse centric AND still firmly "standard" Windows standard - Gizmo and JRemote pretty much do everything I could ever need via "touch". And MC - with it's current design probably would never be a candidate for any touch action. It would need a complete separate build designed specifically for touch - but with the advances in the remote area - I do not see any reason to devote months of dev to that. Us standard Windows guys would go nuts if the primary MC dev suddenly turned to touch.

JRiver is going Linux next anyway - so anything Metro is probably a pipe dream.

VP

[goatherder]

You should know I am about as "anti-Apple" as one man could possibly be. But I just got an iPad 2 handed down to me - and I know when something works well and the iPad is it.

In which case, I think we have an experience gap here.

No-one's disputing that when you reduce the something down to the simplest component, it works.

The difference to the extrapolated / short-term experiences of many may be that I'm fully steeped in (i.e. work with to do stuff, not support) flagship OS/X, Linux and Windows-running hardware for mobile, desktop and datacenter. In my case I have pretty everything Apple manufactures - used for work, keeping up to date and (in limited cases, such as the iPads I use almost exclusive as remotes these days) entertainment - especially since their Intel switch. That on the converse with my experience pool doesn't make me feel any less that on the whole that their gear is overdesigned (not that that's a bad thing as such, as long as there are no compromises involved - but in the case of Apple there certainly are), overmarketed yet underengineered and is too lowest-common-denominator for me.

And I find with every major change which involves a learning curve people moan about progress. I like progress, and I think the hybrid aspect represents progress in the medium term - and it represents a move to not just touch, but opportunistic use of other interface technology at the user's self-determined optimums.

jR has consistently struck me as a very conservative outfit in terms of UX, but trying to adopt 'safe' Linux and attempting 'business as usual' in OS X is not the answer IMO. I can now carry 'a proper computer' with me that is optimised for highly mobile use that goes all day and weighs a kilo or less. And at the same time, I - and I'm sure a lot of others - sit down to music with a desktop computer or a HTPC much less. The UX just doesn't lend itself to non-desktop use, and the Theater mode is, as I said, a cumbersome mode that may be a necessity of Theater systems but has no place on a Windows tablet - and arguably, even a truly contemporary laptop (again IMO).

[Vocalpoint]

And at the same time, I - and I'm sure a lot of others - sit down to music with a desktop computer or a HTPC much less. The UX just doesn't lend itself to non-desktop use, and the Theater mode is, as I said, a cumbersome mode that may be a necessity of Theater systems but has no place on a Windows tablet (again IMO).

Actually for listening - most of us sit down with our phones (Gizmo) or iPads (JRemote) now and carry on just fine without ever seeing the "real" MC on a tiny screen.  Me personally - I couldn't be bothered with MC's "real" interface on any mobile device...it just would never work as is. I want simple and I want it to just work.

But for real MC "work" (library, media insertion, client/server config - AND especially video) - none of us (I know I could not) do any of this with a dinky tablet - nor would I want to. A full on Windows client is the only way to fly.

I think you need to realize that MC capability (and infrastructure) is light years beyond the tablet "music player" you are making it out to be.

VP

[JimH]

Actually for listening - most of us sit down with our phones (Gizmo) or iPads (JRemote) now and carry on just fine without ever seeing the "real" MC on a tiny screen.

That's how I listen.  I usually start Gizmo and use the Car Radio playlists I've set.  I don't turn on the TV unless I want to watch pictures or video.

When we have friends over, I turn on the TV, and use an MC Remote with Theater View.

I agree with you, goatherder, that touch screens are important.  You can expect some changes for MC19.

[goatherder]

Actually for listening - most of us sit down with our phones (Gizmo) or iPads (JRemote) now and carry on just fine without ever seeing the "real" MC on a tiny screen.  Me personally - I couldn't be bothered with MC's "real" interface on any mobile device...it just would never work as is. I want simple and I want it to just work.

But for real MC "work" (library, media insertion, client/server config - AND especially video) - none of us (I know I could not) do any of this with a dinky tablet - nor would I want to. A full on Windows client is the only way to fly.

I think you need to realize that MC capability (and infrastructure) is light years beyond the tablet "music player" you are making it out to be.

VP

You're still fixated on the notion that I only want a Metro client. I am fully aware of the power of MC, and the problem is merely that of control when accessing it on a tablet or similarly portable device which doesn't have to deal in the half-measures of the Fisher-Price units.

The slowness is not a hardware issue such - it's in the animations in Theater mode, as well as in the limitations of the way the information is displayed. It's not slow performance on the part of MC, it's slow "workflow".

[goatherder]

That's how I listen.  I usually start Gizmo and use the Car Radio playlists I've set.  I don't turn on the TV unless I want to watch pictures or video.

When we have friends over, I turn on the TV, and use an MC Remote with Theater View.

I agree with you, goatherder, that touch screens are important.  You can expect some changes for MC19.

And not to just get all repetitive (it looks as though I will need to since it's not getting through) but again, when you have the option of running full MC on a tablet when mooching around in a hotel or at work for example, it's *much* more efficient to navigate your library / playlist with it than prodding a phone - assuming Gizmo is working and hasn't hung the media server (something that I notice happens much less when using MC as a client).

[Vocalpoint]

It's *much* more efficient to navigate your library / playlist with it than prodding a phone - assuming Gizmo is working and hasn't hung the media server (something that I notice happens much less when using MC as a client).

Well - I have to disagree here. I haven't had any issues navigating anything from either Gizmo AND especially using JRemote. Using that on the iPad is heaven compared with mousing around in Windows (Or even Gizmo).

Also - I also have no issues with my music nav in Theater view either. I am using the MC remote for that and it has been flawless to this point.

Many nav problems can also be avoided by a well maintained, properly planned and tagged library as well.

VP

[goatherder]

Well - I have to disagree here. I haven't had any issues navigating anything from either Gizmo AND especially using JRemote. Using that on the iPad is heaven compared with mousing around in Windows (Or even Gizmo).

Also - I also have no issues with my music nav in Theater view either. I am using the MC remote for that and it has been flawless to this point.

Many nav problems can also be avoided by a well maintained, properly planned and tagged library as well.

VP

I have the same options as you - Gizmo, JRemote, My River (RIP), etc - but as I said, my options don't end there, especially as my focus is on other mobile OS's which are more productive and useful for me.  As I said, lack of comparative experience is not a valid reason to dismiss other possibilities.

And yes, my library is very well tagged. It has to be, given the size.

[Vocalpoint]

but as I said, my options don't end there, especially as my focus is on other mobile OS's which are more productive and useful for me.

Well - your options (for Media Center) as always - are directly related to what JRiver decides to supply.

That said - I really dig our current "mobile" options (Gizmo etc). In my opinion - they are enough for any user in terms of basic media enjoyment.

Personally - I would rather see JRiver devote their time to building out a more robust client/server networking infrastructure and improve the video "presentation" end of things well before committing any further time to mobile.

MC - for me - will only ever be my "go to" within my own home environment. As much as I like the app - it's not something I would want to drag around on any mobile device. And due to the flaky nature of mobile streaming - even here in tech heavy Calgary - no mobile app can actually deliver. Things are always cutting out or failing in some way or another - so mobile as a music "enjoyment" platform - is dead to me. Nothing annoys me more than getting into a track and then have it disappear because I drive under an overpass - for clean, high quality uninterrupted (the key word here) music - nothing beats my iPod even to this day

Cheers,

VP

[goatherder]

Well - your options (for Media Center) as always - are directly related to what JRiver decides to supply.

Yes, Which is why I'm asking if they would at least spruce up the UX to address this decade.

That said - I really dig our current "mobile" options (Gizmo etc). In my opinion - they are enough for any user in terms of basic media enjoyment.

MC isn't 'basic'. That's why many people use it.

Personally - I would rather see JRiver devote their time to building out a more robust client/server networking infrastructure and improve the video "presentation" end of things well before committing any further time to mobile.

Apart from the use below, I've given up on MC as a video component - there are (admittedly much more expensive, but that's not an issue for me) much more usable solutions that I've now turned to full-time. And as for client / server - yeah, that's actually pretty important to me as you'll also see below, but the UX is just as pressing as it's a core usability matter.

My use for MC is
- Outside-firewall media streamer
- Media organiser
- Occasionally, media syncer (though since I dislike Android, iOS sync is useless in MC and I don't like the Windows Phone 8 media arrangement either, I don't really use this feature)
- PC-based, single zone (either remote controlled or directly interacting) 'high grade' listening

In terms of general at-home listening though, Sonos parses that same library independently and I simply pick up one of the iPads and use the Sonos/Crestron remote - I'll never touch MC for the vast majority of home listening, because it's far more cumbersome. It's only when I'm listening to high-bitrate material on the H*A*PC in the den or directly sitting at a PC that I turn to MC as a single-machine playback system.

As for video and use as a full HTPC - until I abandoned the idea of using MC for any kind of full-on HT use and went entirely Kaleidescape etc-based, I always felt it was too rough-edged a solution if you wanted to do things properly and part of me feels that being a computer-based solution, it'll always be that way. And as I said before, I find the Theater view actually quite unproductive and dull on anything - I've thrown dual-Xeon, upper-midrange GPU's with locally-sinced, all-SSD storage at the HTPC role in the past, and it's not so much the hardware as I said but Theater View is sluggish in terms of the general response and 'workflow'. Which is why I still either bring up the main MC screen on the current HAPC directly and interact via touchpad-integrated keyboard, or do the same thing through a Windows tablet / laptop acting as remote. And again, in that situation the resolutely 2000's UX of MC hampers effective use by touch-capable local-remote clients: The problem isn't just on the move.

MC - for me - will only ever be my "go to" within my own home environment. As much as I like the app - it's not something I would want to drag around on any mobile device. And due to the flaky nature of mobile streaming - even here in tech heavy Calgary - no mobile app can actually deliver. Things are always cutting out or failing in some way or another - so mobile as a music "enjoyment" platform - is dead to me. Nothing annoys me more than getting into a track and then have it disappear because I drive under an overpass - for clean, high quality uninterrupted (the key word here) music - nothing beats my iPod even to this day

I travel a lot so having the ability to have my entire library available to me with the same user interface as the main MC is a very valuable asset to me. When on transport where the internet is erratic I'll probably be more likely to be listening to my synced podcasts. However when I'm back at the hotel at the end of the day and I'm doing a bit of writing in the evening, it's great to have 'the full MC experience' outside.

[JimH]

Split video discussion