Topic: sending digital signal through wifi or bluetooth (Read 15668 times)

whataboutbob1 · « **on:** February 15, 2014, 12:25:55 pm »

I am looking for an idea as to how to send a digital (up to DSD files) file to a remote DAC in my upstairs (secondary) stereo system. For my downstairs main system I currently run a USB cable from my computer (PC) with the digital signal output of my computer from Media Center going to a separate DAC connected to my downstairs (main) stereo system. For my upstairs secondary system I am currently using gizmo to run the signal to my android phone, with the blue tooth output of the phone sending a bluetooth signal to connected to a bluetooth device input-ed to the pre-amp of the stereo. This, of course, offers a much lower resolution signal/sound at playback.

So I am wondering if there is a way to wirelessly transfer the digital output from my PC/Media Center to a device of some sort that could go to the input of the DAC to be converted to analog.

Thanks,

Bob

connersw · « **Reply #1 on:** February 15, 2014, 01:54:20 pm »

There are endless options. What is your budget? Is your upstairs DAC actually a DSD DAC or do you just want to send DSD files to it?

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 15, 2014, 05:21:33 pm »

My budget is flexible but since this is a secondary system I don't want to spend too much on this. The DAC is a TAEC that plays most formats up to and including DSD files.

Bob

connersw · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2014, 06:26:24 pm »

For actual DSD playback, the only DMRs I know of that support it are the Oppo 103/105/103D/105D. The other option would be to set up a headless CAPS or maybe a NUC.

Edit: I think a Logitech Squeezebox can also do DSD as DoP.

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2014, 02:38:40 pm »

Hi,

I went on line to research the solutions you mentioned. I am a little bit less advanced than you seem to be as I was completely lost as to how to use the devices you mentioned. I think I was able to get the jist of what they do but how to put them together and use them is a mystery to me. It almost looks like they are small computers themselves but need to be assembled by the user? If that is true, would it do the same to get a tablet with a two USB ports to run MediaCenter on, run a USB cable to an external drive that would have copies of my digital files stored on it, and run a USB cable to the DAC from the other port? I see the Asus EP121 has two USB ports on it. That would be an outlay of about a grand for the tablet, external drive and decent cables.

That seems to be a bit much just to get my files to the upstairs DAC! Or maybe there is an easier/cheaper way to access the hard drive if I store my files on it?

connersw · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2014, 04:41:44 pm »

CAPS and NUC are small computers. I'm not sure if you have a full A/V system upstairs or just an audio system. In a plain audio system, you would set them up with a monitor first and then run them headless where you control them with your phone (Gizmo/WebGizmo), and any updates could be handled through Remote Desktop on your main PC.

If you wanted to go the tablet route, the Asus EP121 would work or you could use a Dell Venue 11 Pro or something like a Lenovo Yoga. Intel i5 processors will handle DSD, and i3 should (I have never tried it though--maybe someone else could chime in). I know that the Atoms will not (too much stutter). Of course, you could use a laptop as well (lots of options there).

However, you would not need to have a separate external hard drive upstairs. You could use MC's Media Network capabilities to send the files from your main PC (Library Server) to your upstairs one via WiFi. Info:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Network
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Library_Server

The Oppo's are Blu-ray players that can act as a Digital Media Renderer using DLNA. Again, your main PC serves as the Library Server and you would send files upstairs via WiFi. They could be controlled through their own on-screen display or through your phone if you don't have a TV/monitor upstairs. With the Oppo 105/105D, you get a pretty remarkable DAC/analog section. Depending on how you judge the sound quality, it could even replace your TEAC. Info:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DLNA

A Logitech Squeezebox is a Network Music Streaming Device. Again, this could be used via DLNA. They have gone up in price since being discontinued, so while it may be the least expensive option, I'm not sure it gives the most value. It would require some set-up to play high resolution and DSD as well since it doesn't do it out of the box, but it is possible. I do not use one so my knowledge on them is limited, but there are several here that do who could probably chime in.

As I said in my original post, there a lot of options. Without a budget, an idea of what you have upstairs, and what you would like to accomplish, the recommendations could swing wildly in both price and function. Requiring DSD playback does limit you a bit and anything in that realm will not be "cheap." These are general ideas to get you started on your research. Once you pick a specific path, there are plenty here that would be willing to help answer questions.

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2014, 04:53:45 pm »

You might have a look at streaming audio players.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/DAP.htm

Most of them are DLNA compatible and JRiver is DLNA too (Media Network)
As you have an Android, you might try an app like UPnPlay too fool around a bit with DLNA.

Another option is a laptop with a USB DAC.
Simply the full power of JRiver.
Probably a better end-user experience than DLNA
Don’t duplicate the files, share them with the PC.

connersw · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2014, 05:57:42 pm »

A manufactured streaming audio player that does DSD will definitely not be cheap.

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2014, 06:10:07 pm »

Hi,

Thank you for taking so much time to describe all the different options. I only saw one streaming player that seems to go as high as DSD levels. It is the Sonore "Rendu" at $1369.00.

Is a lap top a better option than a tablet? When using a tablet would it be running through DLNA? I was thinking a tablet would be less conspicuous in a bed room and take up less dresser space. And maybe even cheaper. Although lap tops can be pretty inexpensive too nowadays. I may even have an old lap top around here somewhere.

I will take some time and look over all the different options and check in as I go.

You have been very helpful!

Bob

connersw · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2014, 06:33:29 pm »

No, with a laptop or tablet running Windows and MC, you would not use DLNA. You would set it up as a Client using MC's Media Network.

To get the audio quality you want, the tablet would have to run Windows and have a fairly strong x86 processor. Those are fairly new, limited in options, and on the more expensive side. In general, you could find a laptop that did what you needed cheaper.

Laptop Advantages:
Generally cheaper
Bigger selection and broader range of manufacturers
Upgradeable (start cheap and add more RAM or an SSD later)
Full Keyboard if you use it for other things

Tablet Advantages:
Form factor (light and small)
In general, newer technology
Touch input (more expensive laptops may have this too)
Completely fanless (more expensive laptops may have this too)

If you have an old laptop around, load up MC on it, and set it up as a Client to see how you like it. The Library Server (Access another PC on your LAN) link above should get you started; just ask if you run into problems.

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2014, 08:35:44 pm »

I did find an old laptop and just tuned it up a little. Do I need to buy/install Media Center on the laptop?

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2014, 09:17:00 pm »

You can use one license on all "your" PC's, within reason. See "Restoring a License" on our wiki for more.

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2014, 01:07:49 am »

Ok. I am as far as getting MC installed on laptop. It appears in order to run MC from the laptop I must also have MC running on my main PC too? If so could I just run an external hard drive with copies of my music files on it and not have to run the main computer simultaneously?

Bob

connersw · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2014, 06:49:43 am »

Yes, to use Media Network, you would keep your downstairs PC on. It would be the Library Server, and your upstairs laptop would be the Client.

You could of course keep an external drive upstairs and just play from it. However, you are then no longer sending a digital signal through WiFi (your original request in this thread). You would essentially be creating a 2nd Library (ie Database). There are pros and cons to this approach.

Pros:
Files are local
Lower power consumption (only have one PC running)
No issues with drop outs (WiFi signal)

Cons:
Meta-data does not sync (ie if you use things like number of plays, ratings, etc for smartlist)
Any file changes will not sync (ie catch a name spelled wrong, fix capitalization, etc)
Settings do not sync (ie, you would need to create all your views on both PCs)

Lots of threads on this topic. Here is just one: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71413.0

Another option is to run Media Network and keep a "main" Library on your downstairs PC with all your files, and keep a small local Library of just the classics (stuff you always listen to) on the Laptop. You could then use Media Network when you want the full experience/music selection, but if the downstairs PC is turned off, you could just switch to the laptop local Library for the time being. Here is a post from Glynor on how he does it and keeps his views in sync: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87000.msg595782#msg595782

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2014, 03:55:33 pm »

OK. Thanks for the different options!

I spent a lot of today trying to get my laptop to be able to play dsd files through my TEAC DAC. And doing this reminded me that when I initially set up to do this using MC 19 and the TEAC it took a bit of doing. But for the life of me I can not remember how I did it. I did try to duplicate the settings from my PC to the laptop but to no success. I do know the TEAC uses it's own driver which I had to download and install and I do have that selected in options/audio. But on the DSD Studio I have to have the PC's DSD Studio set to "none" in the output encoding options.... and the bitstreaming set to "Yes (DSD)". But on my laptop with those same settings it continues to play at CD standard output without being able to play the higher resolution PCM files/levels or DSD levels. It still plays the files just at a lower CD standard resolution. The TEAC has a readout of the input signal is how I am able to tell this. When I tried moving the DSD Studio setting the the DSD settings it palys all files at what I am guessing is an upsampled rate but the output has cut outs. Plus I am not interested in playing all files upsampled. I am guessing the cut outs couls be due to the older slower laptop computer.

Any ideas

PS - does the sound quality (other than possible cut outs from lack of speed) have anything to do with the quality of the computer.... or just the quality of the software?

connersw · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2014, 04:36:04 pm »

In DSP Studio, under Output Format -> Sample rate, is it down sampling any Sample Rates or are they all set to No Change?

The drop outs could very well be caused by the CPU not having enough processing power to handle DSD. What are the specs on the laptop?

For the most part, the audio quality will be the same as long as the CPU can keep up. The only other issue would be loud fans adding to the noise floor. I won't get into any electrical noise, PSU isolation, special PCI USB cards, etc. There is plenty of discussion about it on Computer Audiophile if you'd like to read it, but the validity vs hocus pocus is a can of worms I'd rather not open.

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2014, 07:27:54 pm »

Hi,

All are set to no change.

Her are the original instructions I received fro Acoustic Sounds that helped me fix this when I first had problems getting a DSD signal out to the TEAC DAC. But it appears that MC has changed some of the catagories since that time? So these don't seem like they will currently work:

To properly configure JRiver Media Center with your Teac UD-501 you'll want to go to the menu at the top of your screen and then choose Tools-->Options

Under the "Audio Output" heading choose "ASIO" as the output mode and in the "Output Mode Settings" make sure that you have "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER" selected in the "Device" drop-down menu and click the OK button.

Next, under the "Settings" heading click on the "Bitstreaming" option and choose "Custom" from the menu. It will then pull up the "Bitstreaming Formats" settings box. Place a checkmark in the "DSD over PCM (DoP)" option and be sure that "DoP 1.0 (0xFA / 0x05)" is set as the "DoP Format". Click OK on this menu and OK on the main Options page and you will now be listening to your DSD files properly without conversion to PCM.

The lap top is a tougher answer. I had out IT person at work try to make it move faster, which he did. So I don't think I have any accurate info about how fast it is. I know he took out the hard drive and replaced it with a hybrid (part solid state) to improve it's speed. When I pull up the "properties" of the computer it tells me that it has a Intel Celeron processor with 420 @1.6 GHz speed (?). It says it has 1.5 GB of RAM and a 32 bit operating system. So it is a heck of a lot faster than it used to be. But compared to my PC which is a 64 bit operating system with an AMD FX-6100 Six-Core processor at 3.3 Ghz that has 10.0 GB of RAM, the laptop moves at a snails pace. I am not sure if those are the specs you are looking for, so if not, please let me know.

Bob

connersw · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2014, 03:29:03 pm »

OK, first off, that Laptop is incredibly under powered. Lets see if we can get it to play back files locally first, then we can work on Media Network.

With all other applications except for MC closed, please go to Help -> Benchmark -> Run Benchmark. Let it run without doing anything else on the Laptop (will take a few minutes). Please go to this thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54396.200 and post the full results along with this info:

Quote from: whataboutbob1 on February 17, 2014, 07:27:54 pm

Win 32-Bit, Intel Celeron 420 @1.6 GHz, 1.5 GB RAM

(FYI: MC runs in 32-bit, so it is not the OS that is the bottleneck. It is the difference in a 1-core processor with a tiny cache and slow clock speed vs a 6-core processor and RAM to spare).

I'm just curious what the score will be.

I do not have a TEAC, but I will do my best to adjust the directions you gave me to MC19's current build. Maybe Inflatible Mouse can chime in since I think he owns a TEAC.

Tools -> Options -> Audio -> Audio Device -> TEAC USB Audio [ASIO] (Note: the wording may be slightly different, but the idea is to make sure the TEAC ASIO driver is selected).
Click Device settings. In the pop-up window -> Tools -> Check DSD bitstream in DoP format -> OK
Now under Settings -> DSP & output format -> In the pop-up window make sure nothing on the left side is checked (ie no DSP processing)
Bitstreaming -> DSD (you may need to toggle this to None if DSD does not work)

Take a thumb drive and copy a few tracks from your main PC downstairs to it. Try to get a sampling of the different file types you have; regular 16Bit/44.1kHz FLAC, high-res 24Bit/192kHz FLAC if you have it, and DSD (both SACD iso and DSF if you have them). Copy those files to the laptop and try to play them now through MC. Please let me know what plays correctly and what does not. If it doesn't play, please tell me what it does instead (ie error message, no sound, stutters, wrong Sample Rate, etc).

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:32:12 pm »

Hi,

I borrowed and set up another lap top that is newer and faster and used the setting you suggested. When playing it as "the client" I had the same issues (played only as cd resolution regardless of the format it actually was). But when downloading the files on the thumbdrive and playing directly from the drive it played them at their actual resolution, including the dsf files.

So out of curiosity I tried my older laptop and used the settings you suggested with the thumb drive and it also played the files at their resolution.

So my hypothesis is that either MC can not play resolution higher than cd levels when playing them as "the client", or I am somehow not using "the client" properly.

Additionally, I need to do some more A/B comparison but it did seem like the sound quality from either lap top matched the MC playing through my downstairs much better computer. So I looked at the settings on my better computer and they are different than the ones you recommended. And it still plays all the files at their proper resolution. The only difference in the setting was the DSD over dop setting. So I unchecked that and it did seem to improve the sound to what I hear from my better computer.

So the conclusion I have is the problem was using the lap top as a client rather than using the direct music files. So since I am planning to store the files on an external drive this will not be an issue. But I am curious now.... as to whether it can work as "the client".

Bob

PS - Thank you so much for the time you have taken with this! I do really appreciate the help!

connersw · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2014, 07:59:56 am »

Great--it sounds like we are making progress.

The DSD in DoP format check mark is required if you ever want to Encode your Output Format so that all File Types play back as 2xDSD (DSP Studio -> Output Format -> Output Encoding -> 2xDSD in DoP Format). You wrote earlier that you do not want to do that, but it gives you the ability later if you want to try it. There is plenty of debate on whether it is better, sounds better, adds harmonic distortion, etc. There are hundreds of those arguments in the Audiophile world regarding what one person thinks sounds better vs what another person thinks sounds better vs the actual science behind it. In the end, as long as it plays back as you like, and it sounds good to you, that is all that really matters.

Now, lets see if we can get Media Network working in case you ever need it.

On all the computers, go to Tools -> Options -> Media Network and make sure all these boxes are checked:
1. Use Media Network to share
2. Authentication (enter whatever username/password you would like, just keep it the same on all the computers)
3. Under Advanced -> DLNA Server, DLNA Renderer, and DLNA Controller.

On the laptops, also check the following boxes under Client Options:
1. Auto sync with server
2. Show playback zones from the server
3. Audio Conversion -> Conversion: Don't convert audio

Follow these steps to load your downstairs library: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Library_Server#Access_from_another_PC_on_your_LAN
Using the guide, your laptop is the Client and your downstairs PC is the Library Server.

You should now see your entire downstairs Library on your laptop. Initiating playback from your laptop, please try to play the same tracks that you tested with the thumb drive. Again, please let me know what plays correctly and what does not. If it doesn't play, please tell me what it does instead (ie error message, no sound, stutters, wrong Sample Rate, etc).

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2014, 12:20:19 pm »

Hi,

Success!!!! I am now able to play all levels of resolution and types of files. Thank you so much for getting me through this!

Last question. You had mentioned two types of DSD files. SACD files and DSF files. All the DSD files I have run across at HD Tracks and Acoustic Sounds site have been DSF files. Are the SACD files the same level of resolution? Same recording process? I have not yet seen a download titled SACD so I am curious about that. Has Sony started offering DSD downloads anywhere? I had heard they are now putting a huge push for those downloads as they now offer some fairly mainstream equipment to play them on.

Thanks again!!!!

Bob

connersw · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2014, 01:01:01 pm »

Awesome. Glad you were able to get everything up and running.

Same resolution; same recording process. Just a different "container" for carrying the data. When Sony and Phillips originally introduced DSD (way before downloads were the norm or even possible), it was only commercially available on Super Audio CDs. An SACD .iso is a disc image of a SACD that was ripped with a PS3. http://www.instructables.com/id/Introduction-54/?ALLSTEPS Some people who have ripped their own physical SACDs use this file type.

HD Tracks and Acoustic Sounds are probably the 2-biggest sources for DSD downloads. Sony lists a few other sources on their info page: http://discover.store.sony.com/High-Resolution-Audio/, but I am not aware of them opening their own download site.

whataboutbob1 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2014, 01:14:53 pm »

Thanks Again. Don't think I would have ever resolved this on my own! It also took me from maybe 500.00 to 1000.00 in fixes to using what I currently have, to maybe 100.00 for some external storage space if I end up going that route.

Thanks,

Bob

jctcom · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2014, 04:16:00 pm »

Hello. I am curious to know of anyone has tried using the Popcorn Hour A-400,
(http://www.cloudmedia.com/products/popcornhour/store-a-400), (Or one of their other units but I own this one) for this purpose and what they think about it. They have recently added DSD support. I mostly use it to play directly from my NAS box but it does have DLNA capability and that also seems to work quite well.

Actually just found out it's even on sale now. I think I paid closer to $349.00 for mine!

Carl.

midwaybluejay · « **Reply #24 on:** March 14, 2014, 08:39:40 pm »

Carl, I just got my PopcornHour to work with JRiver. I got a setup of 3 A-200 to play my movies from my 16 TB server using MLMJ for movie art that I Love to use. I got Little over 150gigs of music that I need better control over. I was told by JRiver from Goodwin High End Audio in Waltham, Ma. I had problem with the popcorn working with each other and JR. after trail and error I found that 2-a200 connected to JR will not work well. But my a-100's would. So I'm using my A-100's as music media player with my Kindle Fire HD as the Remote and all is working "Great"

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Author Topic: sending digital signal through wifi or bluetooth (Read 15668 times)