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Author Topic: A few off-topic thoughts on government  (Read 18810 times)

hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2002, 09:51:39 am »

>The circumstances are not anywhere close to be as dire as then.
MHorton:
Sorry I have to take issue with that. They are worse now. Then we new who the enemy was now it might be the guy next door.
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Doof

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2002, 10:04:31 am »

So. Anybody up for a heartwarming conversation about stem-cell research?
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2002, 10:33:11 am »

>So. Anybody up for a heartwarming conversation about stem-cell research?
Doof:
You have created a monster here. For what it is worth I'm for anything that would give you a few more years to live.  You think that way when you get older.
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Severian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2002, 10:36:35 am »

hvy duty > Then we new who the enemy was now it might be the guy next door.

"Mr. Jones: Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the terrorist party?"
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2002, 11:13:09 am »

Severian:
I stick by my post I didn't say we needed to start a witchhunt only you don't know the enemy. Those people that got on the plane was somebody's next door neighbor (Think About It)
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2002, 11:17:15 am »

One other point it doesn't have to be an Arab we have little john walker (no caps on purpose) who knows what he might have done after the training camps had he come here.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2002, 11:19:11 am »

>The circumstances are not anywhere close to be as dire as then.
MHorton:
Sorry I have to take issue with that. They are worse now. Then we new who the enemy was now it might be the guy next door.

I understand how you could feel that way. I just don't agree. Had the axis powers won the war, where would our country have been then? Where would we have sold our lawn mowers and refridgerators? But now, were facing terrorists. They're inconvenient. I don't like seeing ANY Americans killed by bombs, buch less by the thousands on our soil. But other countries, Isreal, Greece, Spain, etc., have managed to live for a long time with terrorists, and their worlds have not come to an end.

Tullio
funny  Next Page

but I think that Mme de Grafigny actually had to give up doing hair to act as host of her salon, so maybe exceptions can be made
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2002, 11:26:52 am »

>They're inconvenient
Tell that to the seven family's loved ones that was brought off the plane in Germany today I don't really think they would agree with you
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2002, 11:29:33 am »

hvy duty

>>>>>>I don't really think they would agree with you

Understood. and "inconvenient" was a very poor word choice on my part. But, it it's too much to ask to want everyone to agree with you. (one is asking too much if they are seeking that everyone agree with them.)
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2002, 11:44:37 am »

HyvDuty
Hello!
I understand how you feel,and what you want to say.But try to sit a little and to calm down
If you let the fear to lead you, you  give them a victory
I am sorry for the 7 soldiers,but this is risk of they job.The same day,truck drivers,ppeople on building sites met they end.Risks of they jobs,the same

la peur n evite pas le danger-french saying
more or less :  fear do not spare danger
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2002, 11:49:55 am »

NO MHorton:
We usually agree on 90% of the topics and your input is valuable and well taken. I think JimH started this thread to get the best from all of us. I agree with some,don't talk about religion or politics I ask why not you cannot hit someone with a computer maybe send him a virus but you get a lot of input of how people feel better than the pol's they show now. We have people from all over the world posting to this forum so you get many opinions, speech is a great asset to anybody and everybody should use it whether we agree with them or not.
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2002, 11:59:10 am »

Last post
I just wish I could find some bugs in MJ I only use it as a player and burner haven't figured out all the fancy stuff yet. Since I can't find bugs maybe we go with Doof and start the thread Stemcell research
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NY40Male

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2002, 12:30:25 pm »

Just adding my name to the longest darn thread ive seen on here yet
i didnt read too many of the 109 responses..but at least MY NAME is
included
lol
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2002, 12:49:52 pm »

When I was gathering info for my post in the "hall of fame" thread, the longest topic that I noticed had 109 posts. There may have been longer threads that I overlooked. And there may have been longer threads at one time that were deleted as offensive. But, I believe that we have set a record. Go over and post something in testII. I'd personally rather have the longest post in MJ history be about music rather than about nukin' somebody. Anyone disagree? If so, take it up in the new "Mhorton's an idiot" thread. . . .bet that one'd set a new record . . .
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2002, 12:55:47 pm »

I lied one more
>Had the axis powers won the war Where would we have sold our lawn mowers and refridgerators?
You would not have to worry if you were not blonde and blue eyed you would not have been around.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2002, 01:07:33 pm »

HE IS BLONDE ,do not know about the eyes
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2002, 01:16:07 pm »

? you think JimH is on his little vacation laughing, let's start a thread how we can get back at him.
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2002, 01:58:32 pm »

It's disturbing to see how badly so many people have lost perspective over this.

You have ALWAYS been more in danger from your next door neighbor than from an unknown enemy.  Any actuary will tell you that your chances of being killed by someone you know are far, far greater than of being killed by a stranger.  And also, unless you're a young black male, your chances of being killed by anybody at all are miniscule.  It's your next door neighbor who one day picks up an AK47 and butchers his co-workers.  It's your next door neighbor who goes to work at the local hospital and systematically poisons patients.  It's your next door neighbor who hijacks a bus and drives it and all its passengers over a cliff.  And it's your next door neighbor who one day in a fit of unfocused rage picks up a garden shovel and beats you to death for no reason at all.

I can understand the horror, the anger, the revulsion, the shock, even the patriotic fervor that followed the Sept. 11 attack.  But I remain totally mystified by the irrational fear that followed in its wake.  For the typical American the increase in personal risk has been almost zero.  Certainly, it was wise, and long overdue, to increase airport security.  And sending troops to Afghanistan to destroy the training camps and capture the leaders was an appropriate response, as was increasing our cooperation with other governments worldwide to clamp down on terrorist activities (again long overdue).  But to inflame the fears of a frightened and confused public with alarmist rhetoric about the dangers they face is nothing but self-serving  political charlatanism.  It's one thing to metaphorically declare war on terrorism as a way of showing our national resolve and unity.  It's quite another to put the nation on a wartime footing and suspend personal liberties.  There is simply no justification for either action.  Nor for the overwhelming majority of Americans is there any justification for this lingering sense of imminent danger.  The average American is in far greater danger from the emergence of a deadly flu virus than from terrorist attack..

But if we must have these fears, how much better to minimize the perceived danger by enlisting the aid of our Islamic-American population than by raising the specter of a shadowy Axis of Evil.  Instead of pointing fingers at regimes thousands of miles from our shores, we should be reaching out to those among us who best know and understand the anger and motivation of these prospective terrorists.  Instead of looking with suspicion on every dark complexion and accent, we should be making a concerted effort, as individuals and as a government, to let Islamic-Americans know that we value their presence in this country, that we trust them as we trust all other Americans, and that we know that these extremists bent on terror no more represent Islam than the Ku Klux Klan represents Christianity.  For when these fanatics come to this country intent on doing us harm, they will not be your neighbors or mine.  They will be theirs.
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Callithumpian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2002, 02:14:06 pm »

Tullio above...."The vast majority of Americans.... don’t grasp that much of the rest of the world looks at our social (health care, unemployment, welfare) and foreign (my way or the highway, what have you done for me lately, support of oppressive regimes) policies and sees us as arrogant, selfish, and hypocritical"

This is largely true because America is such a strong, dominating influence upon culture and and across the financial and social sprectra.  Other cultures, those upon whom the American sun does not shine, feel suffocated, threatened.
In this way are the influences that feed ill-will and fester into terrorism engendered.

My solution - undermine those root causes.
Don't allow US corporations and government instumentalities to run toughshod(sic) over cultures and societies which, for whatever reason, seem "foreign" to American ideals.

A good start:-
Remove US troops from Saudi Arabia.  This is a essentialy a puppet regime ala Shah of Iran - and that ended in tears.
Devote an investment, in time, money and benevolence, to establishing and maintaining a Palestinian State equal to the investment expended on establishing and maintaining the state of Israel - no more - just an equal amount.

Continued terrorism from the Arab World would have no foundation.
It would cost a lot less money, a lot less American lives, both armed and civilian and would enable Americans to correctly see themselves as the "generous, freedom-loving, beneficent nation intent on spreading good in the world" that is America's potential and highest aspiration.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2002, 02:17:40 pm »

thank you tullio. I agree with you unequivocally. More so, if that were possible. We are of like minds on this issue, but it is in the statement, "It's quite another to put the nation on a wartime footing and suspend personal liberties.", in particular, that we share the closest bond. thank you.
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2002, 03:00:13 pm »

>Remove US troops from Saudi Arabia. This is a essentialy a puppet regime ala Shah of Iran - and that ended in tears.
Tullio:
I think 80% of Americans would agree but OIL,OIL,OIL.
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sekim

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2002, 03:18:05 pm »

I believe the U.S. gets most of its foreign oil from south american countries. Not the middle east.
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Callithumpian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2002, 03:33:36 pm »

OIL, OIL, OIL.
Now we come to the nub of the matter.
To properly fulfil its potential (and self view) as the benevolent World Leader, America will have to lead the way by placing ethics, humanity and global cultural equity ahead of corporate profit.
This would be unprecedented since the invention of personal wealth in Renaisance times, but I believe that only along this road lies genuine human Evolution.
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2002, 04:01:41 pm »

According to the Energy Information Administration this was the breakdown of US oil imports in 1999:

Saudi Arabia – 17%
Canada – 16%
Mexico – 15%
Venezuala – 13%
Iraq – 8%
Nigeria – 6%
Columbia – 5%
Norway – 4%
Britain – 2%
Angola – 2%

This list accounts for about 90% of our imports.  The remainder comes from a variety of sources, including Russia.

The most surprising figure is the 8% from Irag.  But I suppose Evil Axis oil burns as well as any other.

Angola reminds me that Jonas Savimbi, thie strongman, was killed recently.  Here was a man who was responsible for the deaths of about 500,000 of his countrymen and who personally beat to death the wife and children of one of his rivals, but who was not only supported but honored by the US.  Do some Angolans hate us?  You bet.
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2002, 04:07:16 pm »

tullio

>> but who was not only supported but honored by the US.
I don't remember me or anyone I know who shares that belief
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Charlemagne 8

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2002, 04:24:08 pm »


tullio 03-05-2002 05:58:32 P.M.

It's your next door neighbor who one day picks up an AK47 and butchers his co-workers. It's your next door neighbor who goes to work at the local hospital and systematically poisons patients. It's your next door neighbor who hijacks a bus and drives it and all its passengers over a cliff. And it's your next door neighbor who one day in a fit of unfocused rage picks up a garden shovel and beats you to death for no reason at all.


You've met my next-door neighbor, apparently.

MHorton,

I will not idly stand by while someone accuses me of being "polite company." Your country is now on my list. And just where are you located again?
planet-busters? someone failed elementary double-speak



What did I say? BTW, I'm in Tennessee and my profile can be found on MJ's home page.

CVIII
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2002, 05:02:26 pm »

CVIII

>>>>>>>What did I say?

Apparently, I'm very, very bad at this tongue-in-cheek stuff. To be expected, I suppose, as I practice it little outside this forum. "I will not idly stand by while someone accuses me of being 'polite company.'" Commentary on the "new paranoia" perhaps. Or, what what is that famous saying by Marx? Something like: I wouldn't be a member of any group that would have me as a member.

Re the planet-busters: sorry, but that name is far too accurate, and therefore inflamatory. If you want to coin a term for the new powerful nukes, you'll have to come up with something ala "daisey cutters." I'm going to shut-up, as previously promised. Red Skelton once said something along the lines of "If you have to explain the joke, then . . .." Well, you get the idea.
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Callithumpian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2002, 05:13:43 pm »

King Sparta  "..I don't remember me or anyone I know who shares that belief.
But in democratic society you, yes you personally, agree to be represented by your elected government, and its policies.
[enter hazy teritory]
Was it Thomas Jefferson who said that the only thing necessary for evil to flourish was that good men do nothing?

Bart Simpson-like "I didn't doit" only gets you so far.
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Harry|PLS|The|PLS|Hipster

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2002, 05:54:40 pm »

Tullio:

I was going to write a longer response, but for a variety of reasons decided not to.

I accept much of what you say. However, different bottom line: is this a justification for behavior that is bestial in any acceptable ethical system? How do you find a moral (not political) justification for deliberate targeting of non-combatants?

I am willing to consider - dispassionately - the circumstances that lead to blind rage. I am willing to support long-term policies that ameliorate that rage; in fact, I consider them crucial, one of many reaasons I reject the Axis of Evil nonsense emanating from DC. However, I am not prepared to stand by like a eunuch while my friends and family succumb to mortal danger. And please, don't tell me how small the actuarial risk is. If it moves from 1/10,000,000 to 1/3,000,000, and I (or someone I care about) draws the short straw, it isn't going to make a difference in how I feel after the fact.

In brief, I'm not prepared to play Mahatma Gandhi or MLK to this bunch. I'll continue to work diligently (and have in fact done so in the past) to correct the errors and arrogance that breed these problems, but at the same time, I'm going to address the short-term crisis. This is not zero sum analysis. The two critical paths are not mutually exclusive. Railing at our mistakes and misdeeds is a powerful purgative, but resolves nothing.  

Determinism is a powerful analytical tool. Your observations are important. But they're not a solution in dealing with folks who are committed to killing me and people like me. Time enough for that later.


HTH
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2002, 06:53:45 pm »

HtH

>>>>>>>>>I'm not prepared to play Mahatma Gandhi or MLK to this bunch

I didn't read that in Tullio' statements, directly or by implication. It's very likely that I just overlooked it. Could you, if you have time, point me in the right direction.

This is what I saw: "Certainly, it was wise, and long overdue, to increase airport security. And sending troops to Afghanistan to destroy the training camps and capture the leaders was an appropriate response, as was increasing our cooperation with other governments worldwide to clamp down on terrorist activities (again long overdue)." Is he a pacifist simply because he doesn't want to nuke 'em?
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Harry The Hipster

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2002, 12:46:53 am »

MHorton:

How did I get there? Reading the subtext as well as the text.

Tullio's major premise, running through several threads, is that the US is largely responsible for the poisonous environment in which it now finds itself, and that we're misguided in responding with an emphasis on security:

"The vast majority of Americans simply don’t understand how much this country is hated, because they see themselves as a generous, freedom-loving, beneficent nation intent on spreading good in the world. They don’t grasp that much of the rest of the world looks at our social (health care, unemployment, welfare) and foreign (my way or the highway, what have you done for me lately, support of oppressive regimes) policies and sees us as arrogant, selfish, and hypocritical. We’ve come a long way since WWII and the Marshall Plan."

and:

"You have ALWAYS been more in danger from your next door neighbor than from an unknown enemy. Any actuary will tell you that your chances of being killed by someone you know are far, far greater than of being killed by a stranger. And also, unless you're a young black male, your chances of being killed by anybody at all are miniscule. It's your next door neighbor who one day picks up an AK47 and butchers his co-workers. It's your next door neighbor who goes to work at the local hospital and systematically poisons patients. It's your next door neighbor who hijacks a bus and drives it and all its passengers over a cliff. And it's your next door neighbor who one day in a fit of unfocused rage picks up a garden shovel and beats you to death for no reason at all."

Articulate and well-reasoned, and there's much in there (to repeat) I agree with. But not the suggestion that seems to flow from it that we're focused entirely on the wrong thing with heightened emphasis on airport security, immigration, control of access to public places, etc. while neglecting what's really essential.

I accept the second part of that equation, but not what I perceive as the first. The point I've tried to make - apparently unsuccessfully - is that the two are not mutually exclusive. We're fools when we neglect the long-term considerations for a paranoid concern with security measures at courthouses, but we'd be imprudent fools if we prioritize the long-term strategy to the complete exclusion of legitimate concern about personal safety. It's not either/or.

Ask Zevele. He lives in a country where ordinary civilians walk around feeling they have targets on their backs. There's lots to argue about in Israel's foreign policy and its mishandling of the crisis with the Palestinians, but in any rational universe that does not justify bombs in shopping malls as a deliberate not incidental strategy. Even the most committed Israeli dove isn't about to propose dismantling of major checkpoints and similar national security measures.

Well, what about the civil liberties issues? That is where JimH began eons ago. I'm troubled too, not the least because I don't trust the basic instincts of those responsible for steering us through this passage. Some of the suggestions are outlandish: secret military tribunals, indiscriminate targeting of citizens of Middle Eastern extraction, official curtailment of First Amendment rights, etc. We need to resist unreasonable encroachments at every turn. But again, why is this inconsistent with a legitimate concern about people whose sole motive for wanting to kill us is because of who we are? And why is this inconsistent with taking appropriate and Constitutional steps to mitigate that risk?

Tullio's threads are subtly reasoned and well-articulated. If I've misread them, I'm sure I'll hear about it. But I don't accept the premise that if I ignore one critical concern in pursuit of a second, doing so somehow undercuts the legitimacy of the second concern. It just doesn't follow.

HTH
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IQ10

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2002, 02:44:52 am »

ooops ... to correct a couple of typos.  Please delete previousNext Pageost this.  Thanks.  [former member]
---------------
Scronch wrote> "P.S. - You feel you have to remove the "blowjob" oral sex word from my commentary, when that is this president's lasting legacy. He was getting one while on the phone with a congressman, discussing national policy. You defend this guy, but you feel you have to remove descriptions of his activities from your forum. Think about that for a while."

Mahatma Gandhi wrote> "I have not conceived my mission to be that of a knight-errant wandering everywhere to deliver people from difficult situations. My humble occupation has been to show people how to solve their own difficulties ... my work will be finished if I succeed in carrying the conviction to the human family that every man or woman, however weak in body, is the guardian of his or her self-respect and liberty.” [Gandhi quote from Raghavan Iyer’s, The Moral and Political Thought of Mahatma Gandhi, Oxford University Press, New York, 1973, p. 373.]

Voltaire’s Candide wrote> "Cela est bien dit, répondit Candide; mais il faut cultiver notre jardin."
[English translation: 'That’s well said,” answered Candide, “but we must cultivate our garden.']
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2002, 03:49:44 am »

WOW!!!!! It is the first forum on this subject i see with so much respect to anyone and such deep thinkings.And the 1st one i allow myself to be part off
It is really difficult for me  to try to write a proper text.So,just few sentences

IRAN-when you had tea with the Sha,France had tea with Komeny,in his house close to Paris.I feel that today France is not that far to US on they top 10 hate list

NEIGHBOUR  there not us- arab neighour involve as far as i know
was thousand arab-us neighours translators volunters, this i know

You need to do some 'mea-culpa'. But keep in mind that,on the map,close to mea-culpa,there is "systematic auto--culpability',auto self -depreciate.Do not make the same mistake than Europe few years ago'all is my fault,cause i am white and have food-i have to pay for the wrong doings of my ancestors'.This do no good to anyone

You are not the only ones to give hand to dictator and massacres.But the anglo culture is more cynic and less hypocrite than other cultures.Kind of "well .he is a dictator,but i need oil-iron-to have air base here".Others countrys do the same but" in name of the strong links between our people" And,easy game for them to say"unlike the cynical US".
Tell me about France and the massacres in Rwanda.................

There is a lot of things who are not your fault,but many want you to pay the full bill
-it is not your fault if part of Europe was imperialism using guns and christian cross
_it is not your fault if arabs kids in Maroco,Algeria,Tunisia had to learn"our ancestors the gaulois-our king Louis the ..' and got beaten when speaking arabic in school
it is not your fault,but one or more from this countrys are involve in september
-it is not your fault if you are the only super-power in the world right now
but you are even more visible,an even easyier scarecrow to point at.
and there is no filter anymore.Hard to imagine september in times of cold war

i do not think that your welfare system,and things like this have something to do  with the way people see you

you positions at environnemental,economical,trade world  mettings . This has to do,and BIG
There is a very stong stream in Europe against death penalty in USA.Your answer?
mind your own problems,this is interference.
ok,but in this case can you mind ONLY your own problems ,and not interfere with any of us,dear friends
You want the world to buy you corporates,no take prisonner profit  view.ok,but why ,from next week ,you put a 30% taxes on iron imported? Your rules are good for them,not for you?can you free yourself from the rules you want to oblige on everyone?

once i had a long talk with my father about september.he is kind of humanist,very tolerant
intelectual old man
at the end he said"anyway was less killed than with they f## mess in Chili.And now they know how it looks'.  very provocative this one.I said many times,it is not my goal.Just to show you how deep is your problem with your "public image"
The Chili episode is "history" for you.Not in Europe,as you saw with the Pinchet saga not long ago

anyway,next steep in March in Monterey-Mexique.it seems you are full of good,generous ideas.

and even full of sincerity.Let se if,at the end just again"let'us fead them with hammburgers'
or something new,for the best of all

I see the greatest treat to you inside yourself,not in islamics militants.But no more strenght to speak about it

I much prefer to walk in the streets of Israel,despite all the dangers,than to be a loyal arab citizen  of USA
my task is more easy ,and less unfair

shalom-salem-peace
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Harry the Hipster

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2002, 04:20:49 am »

Zevele - beautifully said. Nothing to add. Thanks for your contributions and your solicitude for the US.

HTH
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2002, 04:34:12 am »

King Sparta

Despite what you, and other people of good sense, might have thought of Savimbi,
Jeane Kirkpatrick toasted him as "one of the few authentic heroes of our time," and President Reagan described him as Angola's Abraham Lincoln.  I expect they both knew better, but this is exactly the type of empty Cold War rhetoric that made us so many enemies among the oppressed.

Harry

You did misinterpret what I said, but the problem is not your reading but my writing.  I seldom participate in forums like this, and I'm always afraid I'm breeching etiquette by writing too much.  Apparently, in my attempt to address several different issues in the same message, I created some serious misimpressions.

The destruction of the World Trade Center and the slaughter of 3000 innocent people was a heinous atrocity, one of the worst in our nation's history.  There was never any question that we had to make every effort to capture and punish those responsible.  I believe the administration's response--sending troops to Afghanistan to destroy the terrorist havens and capture its leaders--was sound and appropriate.  And it was equally sound and appropriate for us to (belatedly) lend our wholehearted support to combating organized terrorism worldwide.  These are evil, fanatical people, and we've got to do our best to root them out and stop them.  Harry, I grew up in and around New York.  I still have friends and relatives there.  This attack hit me hard personally, and I have no compassion for, or illusions about, those responsible.

Here's what I object to.  

1. The declaration of war that goes beyond the symbolic and is indeterminate and indiscriminate in its scope. With whom are we at war?  Al-Qaida?  Fine.  Let's go get them.  Hamas? Islamic Jihad? The IRA?  The 12 year old kid being "educated" in a distorted version of Islam in a Saudi school?  The Basques?  Anybody we don't like or who doesn't like us?  In the old days, we would have sent an expeditionary force to catch and punish the bad guys.  Instead, this administration is playing to our worst instincts and fears and opening the door to blind hatred.  It scares me.

2.  The use of this declaration of war to suspend individual liberties and throw a veil of secrecy over all the administration's actions.  It scares me.

3. (different topic) Someone suggested that this "war" is different from previous engagements because the enemy might be out next door neighbor.  I'm afraid I responded to this more passionately than necessary.  Harry, I've gathered from some statements you've made that you've blown out more than a few birthday candles.  So have I.  And I've lived through a wide variety of "enemies among us."  Back in the 1930s. as a kid growing up in an east coast Little Italy, I knew we were considered to be "different" and not quite American.  When the war broke out, I quickly realized how distrusted we were.  And I saw the people in Germantown being treated the same way.  And we're all aware of what we did to the Japanese Americans on the West Coast.  Then there were saboteurs among us (maybe our next door neighbor).  After the war it was the communists who were living among us, etc., etc.

4. (another topic).  I think this is where I really misled you.  I let my annoyance with the "enemy within" attitude slide into my greater annoyance with the obsessive fear of danger that seems to have gripped the American public.  We seem to have become terrified of everything, from household germs to divergent opinions.  We seem to be constantly running scared from shadows.  But by pointing out that our risk of personal injury from terrorists is tiny, I did not mean to imply (as you apparently think I did) that we should ignore them.  Because as individuals, we have little to fear from them does not mean that we shouldn't do whatever we can to find them and stop them.  But I'm annoyed when I pull into a motel and am greeted by a sign that thanks me for traveling, as if I've done something brave.  And I'm annoyed by people who are afraid to step on an airplane.  As zevele 10 will confirm, people who live with a real threat of terrorists know that if they bomb the market on Monday, you had better be there with your shopping bag on Tuesday.  There is no point in sending troops to capture them if we are going to cringe in fear from them in the meantime.  They've already won.

5. (another topic)  In response to several messages about anti-American sentiments throughout the world, I tried to confirm that I have seen such sentiments first hand and that they are not always unjustified.  Here I think my attempt to be brief did me in.

I've seen two distinct types of anti-Americanism.  One I'll call envious resentment.  This is common in Europe.  It was directed at the British in the glory days of their Empire, at the French when they ruled the roost, at the Turks during the Ottoman years.  It's a resentment born of objection to the political, cultural, and economic influence a strong nation has on the life of a weaker one. Europeans are very familiar with it.  They've lived through many variants over the centuries.  In the case of the US, however, the resentment is accompanied by an increasing sense of betrayal.  In the eyes of Europeans, especially since WWII, we were supposed to be better than the rest, and we're turning out to be a major disappointment.  These people don't really hate us.  But they are angry and disappointed at the way we've turned out.

On the other hand, our myopic support of oppressive regimes and tyrants during and after the Cold War has bought us real hatred among those who were oppressed, and in recent years this hatred has been spread to other oppressed people by those, like Bin Laden, who hate us for their own reasons.  I see this as a really serious problem in the fight against terrorism.  The numbers are large, and growing.  There are tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions, of uneducated, poor, and desperate people out there who have come to see us as their enemy, and they constitute a huge pool of potential recruits for terrorist groups.  The question is do we extend our "war" to include these people, or do we try to win them back?  We seem to have opted for the former course. and I think it could be a disastrous mistake.

Does that help?
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #135 on: March 06, 2002, 04:53:36 am »

By the way
there is a hudge pipe-line to be built other there
not so long ago,a poor country under talibans rules was kind of a stable country to choose as the main  road  for this pipe-line,at least according to another country

under talibans rule  was Afghanistan,the other country was US.......................................
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JimH

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #136 on: March 06, 2002, 04:59:21 am »

I'm giving Tulio and Zevele last words here and closing this chapter in the book of Why and How.  Amazing thread!  For those who thought this was inappropriate, my apologies.  Think of this place as an experiment, always subject to change.

Thanks to everyone for the wide-ranging but intelligent discussion.

Jim Hillegass

P.S.  The real reason I'm closing it is that I'm on a 28K connection.
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Jim Hillegass
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