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Author Topic: A few off-topic thoughts on government  (Read 18775 times)

JimH

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A few off-topic thoughts on government
« on: March 03, 2002, 11:33:38 pm »

I think I'll just post this and see what happens.  I really don't have a clue.

I'm taking a few days off to find out what's really going on, and this is where it has led so far.

Jim


Imagine this.  The next time you pull a few coins out of your pocket or purse, you find that they have the words “In Allah We Trust” written upon them.

That’s how American coins feel to someone who has a non-Christian belief or is a non-believer altogether.  That’s how they feel to me.

Does it matter?  It does if we want to preserve our freedoms.  And it does if we believe in our Constitution.

We are now being asked to give up a few of our civil liberties in the fight against terrorism.  Fine if the period has a definite end; not good if there is no end in sight.

You might ask, “How are religious freedom and terrorism connected?”

Terrorism is rooted in religious differences.  If we do not address this fundamental fact, and recognize that the problem exists within American society, then we will see a very long period of terrorism and of “reduced civil liberties”.

Here is an example of the subtlety involved.  

If you see a man with a turban or a woman with a scarf as you walk down the street, do you assume sub-consciously that they are second class citizens because they do not believe as the majority does?  You may not, but many do.  

No citizen should be expected to adhere to the religious beliefs of the majority in order to be something other than “second class”.

The United States is a country in which religious differences have no role in governments, or so the Constitution says.  But governments have a way of drifting away from principle and toward the satisfaction of individual greed.  Power can shift from “the people” to “those people”.  The U.S. has shifted and it will continue to shift unless we act.

This change came about because television brought the ability to buy political power through advertising.  Perhaps the Internet may help restore power through communication.  

Campaign finance reform may help if it means that less money will be spent to win a seat.  Reducing the power of money to influence public opinion will enhance the value of careful discussion and consideration of issues.

We must consider these issues if we expect to have a chance for peaceful resolution of our differences.
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Jim Hillegass
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Scronch

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2002, 12:09:17 am »

Well, Jim, I completely disagree with you.  The all-show, no-go Clinton era gutted our military and intelligence agencies and re-directed those funds, plus more, into feel-good spending that delivered nothing.  Those policies led directly to the lack of intelligence that allowed 9/11.  The Clinton legacy is [removed] in the oval office and 3,000 dead in NYC.

>>That’s how American coins feel to someone who has a non-Christian belief
>>or is a non-believer altogether. That’s how they feel to me.

Then use credit cards.  The path you're going down will have every street sign printed in 17 languages.  The original concept of this country was for people to immigrate here, learn the language, work hard, and thrive.  It is evolving into: "Come to the United States, milk the government for everything it's worth, and maintain your loyalty to your home country first, even though you have U.S. citizenship."

>>Terrorism is rooted in religious differences

That's crap.  Religious differences are the facade the terrorists hide behind.  The biographies of terrorists that I have seen speak to greed, power and anti-western sentiment, not specifically anti-Christian sentiment.

>>The United States is a country in which religious differences have
>>no role in governments, or so the Constitution says

No, our Constitution does not say that.  We've been through this before in this forum.  If you are going to reference the document, you really ought to read it first.  Like it or not, our government and laws are firmly entrenched in Christianity.  Every session of Congress opens with a prayer.  Those that equate this with "second class citizenship" are simply weak-minded.  Shall we outlaw stupidity?

>>The U.S. has shifted and it will continue to shift unless we act.

I agree.  Except that it has shifted strongly left over the last 4 decades.  We do need to act to correct that.  Clinton's policies, especially, have put us at substantial risk.

Personally, I am tired of the cry for multi-culturalism and multi-nationalism and tolerance for social and sexual deviance.  The 60's revolution has led to sniveling and whining as our way of life.  One good change that came out of that period, acceptance of other races, emerged almost as an aside; those "experiencing" the revolution were more interested in mind expansion and "me, me, me" than racial equity.

I must say that the undercurrents that appear in your post surprise me, given that you own and run a company in this country.  That's not a criticism; different can be good.  I just think you are way off base on this one.

An example: Many have been critical of the way the terrorist "detainees" have been treated while in captivity.  Fine, then those are critical can go take care of these guys.  Sitting on the sideline and complaining is easy.  It appears that whining is "in".

Scronch
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JollyJim

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2002, 01:09:12 am »

I agree with Scronch. Over here in England, we've become a nation of apologists for the world. We are not supposed to fly the English flag (not the Union Jack, the flag of St George) on St Georges Day (the patron saint of England) in case we upset an ethnic minority. In fact, it's almost verbotten to state that you're English. You're supposed to say that you're British. The rule for minorities is that they then add 'Asian' or 'Indian' or whatever to the 'British' thus immediately separating themselves. We have no rules for immigrants to this country in the way that you have. No need to declare an allegiance or to speak the language. There's no intent on their part to integrate and follow the way of life, but they do intend blaming the indiginous population when it all goes wrong. If this sounds racist, then I don't really care. I'm fed up with having to watch every pc word that I say. It's not racist actually, it's just common sense that 'seeming to favour a minority group over a majority group' don't make sense. And, it's not really anything whatsoever to do with religion. It's to do with people wanting to get on with people, mixing and showing tolerance and understanding on BOTH sides.
A few weeks ago, a 70 year old man was jailed for refusing to put British on his census form. He wanted to put English but it was'nt allowed. He could have put Scottish or Welsh or Irish or Martian but he could'nt put English.

The world has gone mad.

So there

Have a good few days off - Jim
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2002, 01:38:44 am »

>>You might ask, “How are religious freedom and terrorism connected?
Been around for along time and gives leaders an excuse to kill another, Be it Allah or God

>>That’s how American coins feel to someone who has a non-Christian belief or is a non-believer altogether.
I am a Non-Believer and I don't care what they put on the US coin as long as it says "LEGAL TENDER"

>>do you assume sub-consciously that they are second class citizens because they do not believe as the majority does?
No, I Don't care if they want to worship roots as long as they do not push it on me Or "BLOW ME UP"
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sekim

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2002, 03:29:01 am »

How about this in reverse. If you were to emmigrate to one of those nations, do you think they would bend over backwards for you. Not likely. So, come on over we'll kiss your feet or whatever else. Feed,clothe,house you and make sure you get your seperatist label that you never had where you came from.
That is crap. Americans should be just that, Americans. No different and all equal. Believe in whatever you want as long as you don't try to force it upon me. If you don't like it, go back to wherever you had it oh so good before.
I'm sure someone is gonna label me now-whatever. I am not racist, just sick of having to make exceptions for everyone else when no one is making an exception for me.
Somehow I thought this country was supposed to be a 'Melting Pot'. Maybe the fire needs to be stoked.
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tWEAKER

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2002, 03:52:51 am »

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

Enough said!
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IQ10

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2002, 04:35:45 am »

Unfortunately, or fortunately (one of these just has to be correct!), the only thing that apparently changes is technology.  By this I mean, that the issues presented above have been going on forever.  I kind of like the approach taken by B.F. Skinner in his book Beyond Freedom and Dignity.  Here are two references:
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/skinner.html#Beyond_Freedom_Dignity
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/skinner.html#Skinner
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/bhskin.html

Frankly I like the first URL reference best, because it allows you to change the color of the background for reading, with a single mouse click! That could not be done, just a short time ago.  It illustrates that technology may be the only thing that changes.

The title Beyond Freedom and Dignity is interesting.  To me, it tries to frame discussions like this one, in terms that are less driven by emotion, fervor, religion, or 'principles'. Skinner's point was that the ultimate value was SURVIVAL. Not so much an individual's, but I guess the species.  Skinner pointed out, that if a rock had consciousness, it might feel that its journey, when falling to the ground, could be characterized by terms like freedom or dignity.  There might be important rules promulgated by different groups, as to how the rock should be treated, during its journey, to promote values like freedom and dignity of flight.  But of course, the rock's flight is really determined by causes. Kinematics.  In the behavioral world, Skinner felt the causes could be understood by operant conditioning.  For instance, which posts here are edited, which are deleted, what kind of peer review do they receive.  My understanding, is that for Skinner, the 'feelings' of 'freedom' and 'dignity', are no more or less, than the effects of an appropriate operant conditioning system.  Not that this is 'bad'.  In fact, blaming things on an 'operant conditioning system' is as much tautology as a solution.  However such a framework, does lead to the opportunity to get 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity' and use technology to change our lives.

Two extreme example of the use of technology:  One was a proposed solution to the horrific expense called assured mutual destruction (MAD) during the 'Cold War' error.  To avoid the cost of expensive delivery systems (missiles), there was a proposal that we would allow the Russians to bury 100 H-bombs in the U.S. and they would do likewise.  Another example is at birth, everyone receives not only ankle bracelets, but a lethal encapsulated and trackable bullet.  Get on a plane, and threaten to destroy its occupants, and puff you are dead.  Remove the capsule, and you will find it very difficult to travel anywhere.  I present these examples, only to make my point that perhaps only technology has and can change where and how we live.

How technology can or will be used is another question.  Here, I hoped the concept of open source and education would find an economic way to be embraced, because of my feelings that only technology really changes. Hopefully to create and share abundance.

[former member]
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JimH

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2002, 04:59:13 am »

[moved from another post]

 

  Please create a new forum for political discussions...  


dwex 03-04-2002 08:30:00 A.M.



JimH, please don't take this as a flame, because it's not in any way intended as such.
I realize this is your bboard, and you can put whatever you want wherever you want. But please consider creating a second forum for non-MJ-specific discussions. FWIW, I tend to agree with the vast majority of your politics. But I find it disconcerting to see political topics thrown in the middle of technical discussions. I think it detracts from the professionalism of the product and organization, and it honestly makes me feel uncomfortable. With the way things are presented in this forum, I feel like I have to take a political position to decide whether or not to use a great piece of software.

Anyhow, just MHO...

--dwex


 HOST/IP: 152.163.190.1





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[former member] 03-04-2002 08:49:22 A.M.

Modify  |  Remove

Dwex wrote> "But I find it disconcerting to see political topics thrown in the middle of technical discussions"
There you go! Pehaps without realizing it, Dwex is asking that we focus on the essential operant ingrediant in Beyond Freedom and Dignity

Thanks, Dwex.

[former member]
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Jim Hillegass
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JimH

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2002, 05:16:18 am »

Wow!  I won't bring up culturally sensitive topics like red meat.

Scronch, you win the .50 inch TV for making Clinton responsible for the World Trade Center.
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Jim Hillegass
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2002, 05:23:10 am »

I do not see USA as a secular state,but as a christian state
Religion is the root of most of terrorisms.Including the one who kill doctors making absortion in your country.But most of the time the leaders use"empty stomac people" as a tool ,and very often "empty head people" as well
I live in a country where security was and is the first priority.But i will say that it is ONLY security in the game.When they type my name on the computer at Ben Gourion airport,there is not  a "second screen' with"may smoke dope,do not pay taxes in time,was 6 months in jail for dangerous driving and so on" when they check me at London airport on my way back,they do not care if i have much more cds than the amount i can have free of taxes,they do not call customs in Israel.They are just about security.They do not want a bomb in the plane,ONLY THIS
I do not know if you understand that i try to say
I cannot speak about USA,but in France,you feel that the new secutity mesures are a tool to police to annoy even more people[if such a thing possible]
Here,because of the way secuty is done,there is a 100% cooperation from people
For a start,secutity is a special force here.Police is police,army is army security is security .They are looking for a bomb,not for an under-age beer or grass cigarette.If they see it,they just do not care,they want people to trust them and to be cooperative
Now,why not to think of terrorist as a acceptable new part of any war?Why still keep the hypocrite difference between soldiers and civils?
Most of the countrys who are targets of terrorism are democratics countrys.Not matter which
president,head of army,politics,there is a common ground that all citizens share.Clinton was not Mao,Bush is not Franco.From a common idea of your country,values,you voice differences,but you still share the same global view.Let say some want wallpaper,other paint on the walls of the house.But none want to burn down the house.The house is exactly what terrorists want to destroy.It is logic to say that in this case there is not soldiers and civils
A whole concept is the enemy.If you keep this reasoning,better to kill 20 kids than 100 soldiers,thousands people in a tower than a group of GI'S
And this is very hard to swallow, even more if you want to stand to your civilised values AND WE HAVE TO
Most racism and intolerance is a form of fear.Thy won big on this side.Fear is everywhere now,and fear needs scarecrows,of the same color or not of the same religion or not

JimH
Can i call you a men of quality?
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Severian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2002, 06:48:01 am »

I'd have to say I agree with the majority of thoughts posted here. I think the business of writing 'in Allah we trust' on currency is a little bit misleading. We don't write that for the same reason we don't write 'in Dios we trust' even though we almost have a Spanish-speaking majority in this country. 'God' is there because although the original intent of the framers and the tradition behind it are certainly open to argument, that's the vernacular in this country for the generic Dude, whether you're into the concept of his existence or not. You're allowed to be into his existence or not. Personally I dig that.

You can split hairs about 'Allah' meaning the same thing, but I think the truth is that when you use that word in an English sentence, you're not using it generically. You're using it to mean the Dude but approached specifically through one religion's tenets and its associated culture. You might as well write 'in Isis we trust' or any other specifically named deity, and all the baggage associated with it.

As far as Clinton being responsible, I only partially agree to the extent that some of our actions or lack thereof during his tenure may have been contributing factors, and it's silly to try and pin the whole mess on one guy or event. There's some interesting stuff in 'Black Hawk Down' (book, not movie) that can certainly lead you to believe that when al-Qaida saw us pull out after a bloody nose, that was a major inspiration to them to keep going. In order to talk softly, you've got to swing the big stick occasionally so that you'll be heard the rest of the time. Sad, but so.

--Severian
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Badger

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2002, 07:53:30 am »

Jim,

If these are the thoughts that go through your head on your days off....please go back to work.

>>Next Pageeaceful resolution of our differences

What, with the Terrorists?.....NOT A CHANCE.  

>>Terrorism is rooted in religious differences......

So what?.......personally, I think terrorism is rooted in the minds of the dumbest people on the face of the earth.  Religion is only ancillary to their thinking.  We had some people in San Diego a few years ago that thought they could catch a ride on the tail of the Hail Bop Comet if they ate cianide-laced pudding while wearing black Nike tennis shoes.  These people only killed themselves, but they were just as religeous and just as stupid as our terrorists.


Mind you, I'm not saying religous people are stupid, I'm saying religeon is here to stay and "resolving our differences" will never happen.  Right now, it doesn't matter where terrorism is rooted.  THE TERRORISTS WANT TO KILL US.  There's no time to sit around and think about religious differences.....COME ON!!!
We're talking survival here and if profiling Arabs in airports is necessary for my survival (and I think it may be)...it must be done.

The entire tone of your post suggests America brought this on.  My feelings about the people of this country are completely the opposite of yours.  Maybe you're just trying to stir things up?
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2002, 07:58:41 am »

>> We had some people in San Diego a few years ago that thought they could catch a ride on the tail of the Hail Bop Comet
THERE SHOULD BE MORE PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE THEY DID

that way there will be more room for people who are not dumb
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IQ10

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2002, 08:02:43 am »

>Right now, it doesn't matter where terrorism is rooted. THE TERRORISTS WANT TO KILL US. There's no time to sit around and think about religious differences.....COME ON!!!

I agree.

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MHorton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2002, 08:07:56 am »

My opinion on the general topic (not on the above statements of anyone in particular:

What created trouble from the outset, was that the USA was a country of devout Christian provincial farmers operating under a governmental system created by people vastly different than themselves--cosmopolitan, intellectual elites who were NOT Christians, but deists. Anyone with at least a freshman level survey course in US history, or who has read anything on US history not published by the Christian Right, American neo-Nazis or paramilitary militias would know this. The "fathers" of our country, the framers of the Constitution knew their target audience, and what it would take to reach their goal, but they were even more acutely aware of the dangers of religious intolerance, and they set out to create a system that would protect the minority from the fanaticism of the majority. You do not have to be a history major to pick up any book on world civ and see how a nation-state's majority imposing its religious beliefs on the minority can tear a state apart just as easily as any outside threat. A small group of worldly, educated philosophers created a system that was designed to ensure the existence of what they had all worked so hard to create, by protecting the people from themselves.  

I think that the success of the country has led us to believe that we have somehow become so powerful that we are no longer bound by the forces of our collective history. That is why the Chinese tend not to take us too seriously--looking from their perspective of 4000|PLS| years of civilization, they believe that in our hubris, we will go the way of Persia, Rome and Great Britain before us. Personally, I always thought that, ultimately, we would prove them mistaken about us. However, based upon the actions and attitudes of my fellow countrymen since 9-11, I am losing hope.

A decade and a half ago, I wrote a short essay comparing the situation of the United States to a family, successful in their business and personal lives. In a nutshell: These four family members had the same goal--maintain the level of success that they've worked so hard to achieve. The problem--they are divided in how to achieve their goal. Dad and older sister say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." They point to how doing what they have always done has gotten them to where they are and that these activities, since proven effective, should not be changed. Mom and younger brother say, "Anything that is not growing, is dieing." They point out that, they became successful in the first place by thinking differently, by looking forward--by not being manacled by the mental chains that that had tied down their parents, but now, rather than continuing that successful outlook, they are making the mistake of saying that their future is chained to the successful activities of the past.

In my essay, there were lots of examples, analogies, demonstrations, elaborations and the like, of course. Skipping all that for now, let me just say that I see our country as being divided along similar lines--those that cling to the past vs. those who look to the future. The first group tends to point to some make-believe, mythological point in the past when everything was perfect, and after which, everything went to pot. The second group looks to some hypothetical, idealized point in the future, achievalbe by discarding the chains of the past and by striving toward an as yet unrealized perfection. To me, there is nothing quite as obviously black and white in political discessions as this division. This past presidential election, polls on many hot topics that show Americans evenly divided, and in all liklihood, this thread--should it continue for any length of time--all point to this seemingly irreconcilable division within America. This, in my opinion, is the greatest danger to our country. Not the "new Americans" bringing their differing ways and religions. Not terrorists. Not even environmental degradation. But the division over whether we should turn around and go back, or whether we should keep driving.


It's OK, go ahead--I have my flak jacket on . . .
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MHorton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2002, 08:11:10 am »

>>>>>>can certainly lead you to believe that when al-Qaida saw us pull out after a bloody nose, that was a major inspiration to them to keep going.

think Boxer Rebellion and the Russo-Japanese War combined, I think
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2002, 08:21:50 am »

Badger
This time is not a time only for guns and bombs.You need guns and bombs but ,at the same time you need  people sitting and thinking.The mix of this 2 things has a name CIVILISATION
There is a logic to profiling arabs in airport.As far as i know if the terrorist had been  1,80 meter tall ,blond hair,blue eyes with Peter,Christiansen,holg as names; any airport will profile people from Scandinavia ,rigth now
I know that America strongly believes that force only can cure anything.You did this mistake many times before,to no good to yourself.If you do again the same mistake,you will loose,big i mean

I do not stand that much on Jim side.To put "in our God we trust" on money is a rigth for a nation.To want anyone ,everywhere to use this money lead to......
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Severian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2002, 08:23:05 am »

Nobody invited me to either of those. What happened there again?
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Badger

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2002, 08:38:44 am »

Zevele10,

I believe we agree.  This is without question A TIME FOR GUNS AND BOMBS.   And I think you would agree that America's diplomacy in world events (without guns and bombs) is without precedent.  I was just saying that sitting back and trying to analyze the source of our enemy's actions, (except as to where we drop the bombs and shoot the guns), is dangerous to me, my family, my friends and my country.
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MHorton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2002, 08:46:09 am »

Russo-Japanese War (1904-05)

The Japanese really whipped the pants off the Russians on the land and on the sea. So? Major turning point in modern world history--the first time in modern history that a non-white country had beaten any the imperialistic European nations in open warfare. What we (Europe) thought, yea, so what, it was the Russians--look at their state of readniess for warfare at that time. What they (non-western world) thought: they are not invincible! Encouraged many revolts against the West throughout Asia and the Middle East.

Best of my memory anyway--it's been many years since I studied it. Others can elaborate

Boxers . . .
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2002, 09:07:29 am »

Badger
You need people using bombs and guns,you need people ,million people to sustain[?]endure[?]-sorry about my english- the first ones,but you do need some people sitting and thinking
There is something you have to realise,even terrorists have thinkers at they head.they maybe evil thinkers,fanatics thinkers,but they start from an intellectual view all they acts.
There is a war going on,this time a big hammer is not enought,there is a need for a scapel to be use at the same time.You know how to use the big harmmer,i hope you will learn how to use the scapel.And not only for your best,for my best as well,and the best of millions others

By "sustain-endure" i meam to give support,to give moral support

Of cause,if one day you have more people sitting and thinking that people acting,BIG PROBLEM
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mphorton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2002, 09:11:09 am »

Jeez--I wrote a paper on the Boxer Rebellion 20 years ago, and it seems to be coming to mind as relevant here for some reason, but I’m not able to place finger on the exact tie-in.
Something about Chinese patriots circa 1900, disliking Western domination, and rebelling, and the avoidance of a massacre of western forces achieved by setting arrogance and compositeness briefly aside, and achieving an unusual level of cooperation among the forces of Germany, France, Britain, US (what the US and UN forces didn't do in the Black Hawk down story).

Sorry, an old alias somehow slipped in--MHorton)
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2002, 09:22:24 am »

compositeness? I think that you mean "competitiveness," don't you Barbarosa?

Yes, but "competitiveness" isn't a real word. See what happens when you let those silly spell-checkers run wild?

OK, I get you now.

Alright

(and add to Russo-Japanese War comment above--Japan kept that victory against the West in mind, as well as the effect of its initial surprise attack on Port Arthur, but the West forgot, so the West had a little problem with Japan again few years later, and with the effect of its initial surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.)
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2002, 09:55:22 am »

I will really get some flack here. What are we saving the nukes for it took two to bring Japan to the table saving 100's of thousands of American lives. The Arabs hate us even Kuwait who we saved their butt don't like us. The Jews and Arabs have been fighting for years and it will never stop. I think it is time we closed the purse strings half the money we give to countries go for arms.Let's put all the money we are sending over there in defense. Oh Clinton. he is responsible for everything (even Enron,earthqakes,job losses you name it blame Clinton) if you believe some.  Mr Bush Sr had his chance at Iraq that was one big mistake you sure don't here nothing about that. Our Secretary of State has his big olive branch out and they spit on it. Well if I could save one American soldier I would have no problem using the big one we might be called a bully but I remember in school you didn't pick on the bully unless you wanted your axx kicked.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2002, 10:10:32 am »

>>>>>>We are now being asked to give up a few of our civil liberties in the fight against terrorism.

Sacco & Vanzetti
Woodrow Wilson and vera Cruz
Pancho Villa and Pershing's punitive expedition
Cheliabinsk-Vladivostok Invasion (1918-19)
The Red Scare (1919-20)
Bruno Richard Hauptmann Trial (1935-36)
A. Mitchell Palmer (Ashcroft's Hero)
Japanese-Americans in WWII
McCarthyism
(all these have tie-ins to today's situation)

Nothing ever changes.
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2002, 10:13:37 am »

MHorton

all this garbage (killing) will stop when we humans destroy the world.

given time i am sure we will, before the earth is pulled into the sun
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2002, 10:23:51 am »

NUKES!!Such a good idea.Let start:maroc,tunisia,algeria,lybia[ho yes'oh yes]egypt,you know what ,a little one on israel.Palestinian are terrorists,israel cost us a lot of money.Liban,syria,i am not sure about turquey. Iran,irack,jordan,koweit,saoudia.Ouf,let's have a coffee.No,no,my friend!!And north of india,bangladesh,malaisia?half of the african countrys are moslen,so give me more nukes
Now there is an other problem,in many white christans countrys on the old continent many many many people dislike us.Nukes?Problem,for the first time in my life i have to think
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2002, 10:23:59 am »

NUKES!!Such a good idea.Let start:maroc,tunisia,algeria,lybia[ho yes'oh yes]egypt,you know what ,a little one on israel.Palestinian are terrorists,israel cost us a lot of money.Liban,syria,i am not sure about turquey. Iran,irack,jordan,koweit,saoudia.Ouf,let's have a coffee.No,no,my friend!!And north of india,bangladesh,malaisia?half of the african countrys are moslen,so give me more nukes
Now there is an other problem,in many white christans countrys on the old continent many many many people dislike us.Nukes?Problem,for the first time in my life i have to think
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2002, 10:25:35 am »

KingSparta

Dinosaurs and Ice Age mammals. Countless mass extinctions prior to those. We, however, are unique. Ours may be the first ever that the participants didn't play a passive role in the event.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2002, 10:34:40 am »

Zevele1

Lithuanians really bug me. Can we nuke them first? It's a small country--won't take many missiles or much time. We can use the excuse that we needed a place to work on our accuracy. Just make sure not to bother the Estonians. They're the ones that like us, right? Or is it the other way around? Oh hell, who cares? They're all too poor to buy much from us. Nuke 'em all.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2002, 10:48:58 am »

NO! Part of the roots of my friend are there,so let try to find an other way
you know there is a great sadeness in all american forums about this subject.Most are only "kill them" posts and very few are"why" post.And if you do not ask why?,you will lose
I feel that i am reading again Texas from Michener

Can the greatest boxer of all the times wearing his gloves  win a "milk a cow the faster" contest?
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2002, 10:53:08 am »

>> Can we nuke them first? It's a small country--won't take many missiles or much time.
that sounds easy but, when you use the word "NUKE" it is not very diplomatic. i think any country who uses the first Nuke now days will feel the wrath of the rest of the world.

I was in the Small Combat Nuke Bussness when in the artilliry you have some very uptight people you need to deal with (to say the least).

Sometimes i feel the same way, blow them all up and no problem, move on and fly a kite with your kids the next day.

what would be better if all people could just get along with each other, and stop this senceless killing no matter where it is.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2002, 10:57:08 am »

zevel1/KingSparta

sorry, my tongue was planty firmly in my cheek, but you were unable to see that due to our distance apart

parody--imitating the characteristic style of some other work, but treating a serious subject in a nonsensical manner, as in ridicule (caricature--is that a French word?) Tartuffe. Commentary on the world being nothing more than consumers for capitalists (too poor to buy, too unskilled to be valuable workers, who need's 'em), the ability to nuke anyone without having an affect on nearby friendlies (hit Lithuania without having an impact on Estonia?), and on the reasons someone would choose to use nukes in the first place(those people are inconvenient in some way, and to the point that the general environment must suffer as a result for next few thousand years--to hell with the world that our kids will live in).
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2002, 11:04:37 am »

I am not talking about all arab people I have a few friends they are good people and feel the same as I do. I am talking about the people that want to KILL us and they don't care how they do it nor who they kill our problem we have been talking to many years action is what is needed not tongue lashing. Remember the best defense is offense
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2002, 11:05:24 am »

I know one country who will use nuke without a second of hesitation if it is this or do not exist anymore
And i know many other countrys who dont give a dam to the wrath of the rest of the world
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2002, 11:09:04 am »

MHorton:
I don't think Japan has been hurt as far as I know it is in good shape I think better than us.
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2002, 11:09:07 am »

MHorton:
I don't think Japan has been hurt as far as I know it is in good shape I think better than us.
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sekim

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2002, 11:13:23 am »

Zevele10

Do you live in same said country? I can only imagine the tension that must be in the air where you reside. Something most of us, living here, will never have to face first hand.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2002, 11:30:24 am »

I am sorry,but this people do not just wake up one morning and say "nothing to do?Let's kill some americans".You may be able to kill the "actual" ones,but if you do not try to understand why,you will have to kill the next ones,and the next next ones and so on.They are much much more an higth number that you are.When you have 2 kids,they have 10.Tell me on the long run
What is the point to kill 30,300,3000,30000,even more terrorists and at the same to oblige the poorest farmers on earth to use the american " sterile  seeds".The one you cannot take some from the harvest for the next year,they just do not grow. They have to buy new seeds each year TO AN AMERICAN CORPORATE.And they are more poor and this is the bed for the comming generations of terrorist.You may say such things are fine ,it is just capitalist,why not,but in this case you have to go  to the end of the logique,september was a kind of capitalist as well
You do not realise that million are ready to take they own life to destroy you and that MILLIONS stand,in one way or another ,on they side
It is not guns you need,it is brains,thinking,self critic.And a large part of you have more guns that the others things
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2002, 11:38:29 am »

hvy duty

I'm sorry, but did you say Japan hasn't been hurt? That's debatable, but that's not my point. Deciding whether dropping nuclear bombs on Japan was right/wrong is now a matter of hindsight. Given the circumstances: military--the impending loss of American lives that would result from an invasion of the Japanese mainland; political--the impending occupation of Japanese held territory by the Soviet Union; and scientific--what was known about atomic energy and its affects, I agree with the decision made at THAT time. But now we're talking about using a little foresight. Again, we do not have to be manacled to an activity that led to success in the past. That was then. The circumstances are not anywhere close to be as dire as then. We have options that weren't available then. We know much, much more about the effect of radiation than we knew then. The radiation from all those tests accumulates. When it comes to using nukes, we now know that it's not a case of cutting off a diseased toe to save the foot, but instead it's a case of cutting off the leg to save the foot. Progress implies moving ahead.
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government (long)
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2002, 11:55:10 am »

MHorton has put it well, but I can’t resist making a few adjustments.  The Framers comprised a variety of “Rational Christians,” primarily Baptists, who were adamantly opposed to any attempt to link church and state.  With the Deists and Unitarians they represented the Enlightenment mind set that MHorton describes . Let me add a few specifics for clarity.

From Roger Williams, patriarch of the Baptist faith:

"It is the will and command of God that, since the coming of His Son, the Lord Jesus, a permission of the most Paganish, Jewish, Turkish or anti-Christian consciences be granted to all men...God requireth not an uniformity of religion to be enacted and enforced in any civil state...An enforced uniformity of religion throughout a nation or civil state confounds the civil and religious, denies the principles of Christianity and civility, and that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh."
From Thomas Jefferson (in a lletter to William Short):
"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his own from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man."
In a footnote appended to this letter, Jefferson identified that to which he referred to as rubbish thus:
"The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity, original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc."
From Benjamin Franklin (when pressed about his religious convictions):
"You desire to know something of my Religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavor in a few Words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That he governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we render to him is doing good to his other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them."
Now we come to Franklin's thoughts about Jesus.
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire. I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that Belief has the good Consequence, as probably it has, of making his Doctrines respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the Unbelievers in his Government of the World with any peculiar marks of displeasure."
Prayerat the Constitutional Convention:
"It is perhaps symbolic of the difference in the relationship of state and religion between the Continental Congress and the new government established by the Constitutional Convention of 1787, that whereas the Continental Congress instituted the practice of daily prayers immediately on first convening, the Convention met for four months without any recitation of prayers. After the Convention had been in session for a month, the octogenarian Franklin, who in earlier years had been pretty much of a Deist, moved 'that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.' The motion was received politely though not without embarrassment. According to the records of the Convention, 'After several unsuccessful attempts for silently postponing the matter by adjourning, the adjournment was at length carried, without any vote on the motion!".
No formal prayers were ever recited at the Constitutional Convention.
What’s in the Constitution?  Most people are familiar with the so-called “freedom of religion” statement in the Bill of Rights.  Fewer are familiar with Article VI, Section III, which specifically prohits any religious test as a condition for holding public office.
The elimination of religious tests for public office by the Constitutional Convention of 1787 represented a major achievement for the future course of American church-state relations. Article VI not only removed the basis for any preferential treatment of one religion over another for holding public office, but also denied the right of any preferential status of religion over nonreligion in matters of one's political participation in the life of the Republic. William Lee Miller appropriately noted in his recent historical review of religion and the Constitution, The First Liberty: Religion and the American Republic, that "in the framing of Article VI ...the new nation was electing to be nonreligious in its civil life." On the subject of religion, Miller finds "more striking than what the Federal Constitution did include is what it did not." Unlike other legal documents of the period and throughout history, there art no references in the Constitution to the Deity, to God, to "Providence." or even to the Creator, as in the case of the Declaration of Independence, which, unlike the Constitution, was not a formal legal document.

Shortly after its founding the US became embroiled with the state of Tripoli over the issue of piracy.  The conflict was resloved in 1796, and the treaty bringing it to a close contains the following passage:

Article 11 read, "As the govemment of the United States of America is not founded in any sense on the Christian religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] - and as the said states have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
In the Senate, the treaty barely caused a ripple. According to The Journal of the Executive Proceedings of the United States Senate, the treaty was read aloud on the floor of the Senate and copies were printed for the senators. No discussion or argument about the document was recorded, and the vote in favor was unanimous.  It was also reprinted widely in newspapers, and there is no record of public objection to its wording.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2002, 11:58:02 am »

zevele1

I understand what you're saying about the Green Revolution and the failure of American methods for the people of northern Africa. Bad soil can't be replaced by fertilizer if you can’t afford fertilizer. Genetically engineered seeds won't grow without fertilizer and require irrigation. Irrigation requires a water supply and money--of which the North Africans had neither. Our motivation was to help; our method was to arrogantly come in, take over and say you have to do it our way to succeed. But when they try, and it fails, and they now have no seed from last year’s crops to sow, so there is increased starvation, what did we do. Give them food. More food=more babies=more land needed for the population=deforestation for expansion=environmental degradation=more starvation. Then we scratch our head and say, why do they hate us? Perhaps we should have just said "let 'em starve" from the outset? Or, could we simply have applied reason unmitigated by our arrogance, seasoned with an application of our knowledge of history and science and possibly have foreseen the outcome of our efforts? And some understanding and appreciation that we're not perfect from the other side wouldn't hurt either.
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2002, 12:01:16 pm »

> I am sorry,but this people do not just wake up one morning and say "nothing to do?Let's kill some americans".<
Sorry they get up every morning and are taught to hate Americans. You tell me how to change that and I will agree with you but in the meantime I want a little protection for my family and everybody else.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2002, 12:03:08 pm »

MachineHead
As you can see on my profile,i am in Tel-Aviv.I hope that this will help to understand that i do not try  to be a psycho anti american.Yes we are on the front line.If your country attacks Irak ,i will have to put nylon on all windows of one room,to keep bottle water,to put my gaz mask at each alert,and to have my injections ready in case they tell us to inject it.Something none of you will have to do.Anyway,we did it once in 91,so next time will be a kind of"routine".We cannot nuke palestiniens,but kill most of them,this we can.And what?To give them some respect,a way to live with job,food can be a better way to try to solve the problem.We have a lot of"nuke them"here,since ever but to not result
I am a 50 years old jew living in Israel.But today as a 18 years old palestinien i will kill israeliens and have a Bin Laden poster in my room
It is what i try to say,you have to try to understand why if you want to succes.To understand is not to approve.You just give yourself more power and strenght.Bomb and bomb if you want,you maybe you need more than one Vietnam to start to understand,but it will be to late
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2002, 12:11:32 pm »

Sorry.  Most of the spacing between paragraphs got lost in the transmission of my last message.  Also, this paragraph at the end was clipped off.  (Relates to the Tripoli Treaty).

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all TREATIES made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding." (emphasis mine)

(Article VI, Section II, United States Constitution)

Never having been voided or modified, the language of the Tripoli Treaty has had the force of law since 1797.  The US is officially NOT a Christian nation.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2002, 12:22:17 pm »

tullio

Your points were well taken and I think well applied. Be careful, though, when you use quotes from our "forefathers." They were politicians, and business and politics, not personal revelation was typically at the head of their agenda. They spoke to their "audience." For every statement that I could locate indicating that they were not "Christians" in the traditional sense, someone else could find one indicating that they were. For most pro-Christian utterances that someone were to fiund, someone else could find a source indicating that the statement was fabricated at some later time in order for the fabricator to make their own point. Yours, I think, are good. I have a book the topic of which is the accuracy of quotes attributed to our founding fathers. Interesting read. Published though, by a skeptic society. Best to trust original sources, and then with a mind as to the setting of the document.
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JimH

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2002, 12:23:29 pm »

KingSparta got it in a nutshell:

> Sometimes i feel the same way, blow them all up and no problem, move on and fly a kite with your kids the next day.

> what would be better if all people could just get along with each other, and stop this senseless killing no matter where it is.

and zevele when he said:

I am a 50 years old jew living in Israel.But today as a 18 years old palestinien i will kill israeliens and have a Bin Laden poster in my room.  It is what i try to say, you have to try to understand why if you want to succes.To understand is not to approve.You just give yourself more power and strenght.  Bomb and bomb if you want,you maybe you need more than one Vietnam to start to understand,but it will be tos late.

and MHorton and many others.

There are too many people who hate the U.S. and some of their reasons may be valid.  But we can't find a way to understand each other with bombs or guns.  Sooner or later, we need to talk.

The reason I think religion is at the root of the problem is the hatred between Palestinians and Israelis is based in part on religious differences.  It's more than that, of course.  Land, wealth, culture, history.  But there is a deep animosity that is religious in nature.
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2002, 12:26:45 pm »

JimH
You done good If I had started this thread I would have left town too.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2002, 12:30:08 pm »

>>>>>The reason I think religion is at the root of the problem is the hatred between Palestinians and Israelis is based in part on religious differences. It's more than that, of course. Land, wealth, culture, history. But there is a deep animosity that is religious in nature.


Personal opinion: its really the other reasons that you have listed. But, it looks better to say "my God insists that I kill you if you don't join up and bring your riches, so don't blame me" than to say "I want what you have and can't think of any other way to get other than to kill for it," or "our ancestors have fought for millennia for one reason or another, so no reason to stop now."
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2002, 12:35:49 pm »

MHorton
The mistakes you spoke about are not only american mistakes.The same can be say about most europeens country.
I spoke about this seeds because,not long ago in India,farmers just killed the americans of this corporate.In this case they have water and so on.It is just that this corporate imposed,by one way or an other, they seeds.You will tell me it was an american corporate,not America the country,the people ,you did such a thing.And you may be right.
But ,here is a problem you have:for many people America is this "seed corporate",MacDo,Microsoft,all the Hollywood S##.They do not know about Faulkner,Jim Harrisson,the great american thinkers.For them a typical american is or all this corporates or the likeable idiot in Forrest Gum[?]You have a problem with your image.It is your main problem in not "war of religion" countrys
I stand on your side,but you are not "white as snow" in all this drama

Better the pain of peace than the long  death throes of war
Man created god,the other way has still to be prove
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