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[akira54]

Users have been asking about Spotify integration since MC16 now. Is there any news on this issue?

[imugli]

+1 but I think there's a stumbling block with the API around MC being commercial. 

[glynor]

For JRiver to do this, unless I'm reading the terms wrong, Spotify would have to change their API terms for libspotify:

3.3 You may not sell the Application, charge Users for use of the Application or otherwise derive any income from Users’ use of the Application, such as through e-commerce initiated via the Application or the sale of any advertising, sponsorships or promotions on the Application itself.

In other words, you're only allowed to use libspotify to build completely free, non-commercial applications.  I don't know why they have that term in their license, as it seems pretty short-sighted to cut out customers who might want a "pro" Spotify client, but that's what they've done.  That's essentially the opposite of what Twitter did originally (when they encouraged third-party commercial clients) to build a big following.  I'm guessing it has to do with their advertizing model (and, of course, Twitter did end up squashing this program later after they'd sucked all of the benefit from it).  In any case, they make their feelings pretty clear here on the "front page" for libspotify:

Furthermore we want to let you know that the use of our APIs under these terms is for non-commercial use only: they are not intended to allow you to sell any software or devices based on these APIs. If you would like to make use of Spotify in a commercial way, then please contact our Partner team before you engage in any work.

[Matt]

Last time I wrote to Spotify, I got a form letter response and that was all.

You could write and tell them you think integration in programs like JRiver would help them sell more Spotify.  I'm matt at jriver should they want to talk.

[crisnee]

How about MOG?

-Chris

[6233638]

How about MOG?

Doesn't look like there is a public API: http://feedback.mog.com/forums/50607-feature-suggestions/suggestions/768370-public-api-for-programmers

[Arindelle]

I've been in contact with Qobuz in France Matt -- they stream in Flac and are pretty protective about their API. However they use jriver for testing gear. Not sure about their business plan (20 euros/month^^), but have to admit pretty impressive catalog and the flac streaming works surprisingly well.

http://www.qobuz.com/ Could I give them your mail too?

They are also a good source for flac downloads (but expensive) also sell 24bit higher res stuff

Might not be too interesting though in view they are stuck in France for the moment and there mobile platform does not stream flac

[Matt]

I've been in contact with Qobuz in France Matt -- they stream in Flac and are pretty protective about their API. However they use jriver for testing gear. Not sure about their business plan (20 euros/month^^), but have to admit pretty impressive catalog and the flac streaming works surprisingly well.

http://www.qobuz.com/ Could I give them your mail too?

Sure.  Thanks for asking.

[imugli]

I know I must sound like a broken record, but how about showing PMC some love, integrating it properly, playing around with the funding model and making it somewhat of a viable competitor (if only for MC customers) so that these Spotify questions don't keep coming up :-)

I know it's always a question of prioritising resources, but it seems more and more that media consumption is moving to a "subscribe to the right to listen / watch" as opposed to "purchase the physical media" - whether we like or agree with it or not...

[JimH]

I don't disagree that it has potential.  You're correct that it's a matter of priorities.  I hope we'll be able to add more muscle on development soon.  I looked at sales a few days ago, and we've increased MC revenue 4x since 2009.  It feels like it's solid and growth will continue.

This area is not without problems.  Record label requirements can change quickly and we don't always get their best deal.  We provide Performer via our partnership with MediaNet, but that hasn't always been reliable.

Integration with MOG or Spotify or Pandora might be interesting, but the service du jour changes frequently, and we now have Apple and probably Google.  AOL's termination of Winamp and the reported interest by Microsoft may mean that Shoutcast has legs in the future.  Who knows?

In the meantime, we just keep laying track, trying to bring the chaotic media world together into a somewhat seamless experience.  I think our integration with Netflix, Hulu, and Youtube has been very important, even if we couldn't always do what we would have liked to do with it.

[crisnee]

MOG is available via the Logitech Squeeze Touch. Doesn't that mean that it's available to be worked into software? I'm listening to it now on my Touch, so it's still available even though the hardware product has been discontinued for some time.

-Chris

[MrC]

MOG is available via the Logitech Squeeze Touch. Doesn't that mean that it's available to be worked into software? I'm listening to it now on my Touch, so it's still available even though the hardware product has been discontinued for some time.

-Chris

No, MOG and Logitech had to come to terms:

   http://www.logitech.com/en-us/press/press-releases/9397

and the content is brokered by Logitech's MySb.com service.

[akira54]

I too think streaming services are the future whether we like it or not, and I gather from the replies that Spotify's own licensing policy is a major problem. However, Sonos has managed to solve this by offering integration in their software of PAID licences only. That way Spotify stands to gain by integration and Sonos (presumably) does not need to cough up any extra money. Perhaps that might work with MC too?

Another idea would be for JRiver to investigate the possibility of offering a similar service to that of Spotify. The more competition we get the better off we as consumers will be (hopefully).

[raldo]

OR JRiver could lay out the necessary foundations needed for developing plugins that would support Spotify.

For example:

o Support display of lists generated by plugins, for example as a playlist or maybe as a part of the library.
o when an item in this list is played, the plugin can hook on to this play event and determine what to do with the item.
o Spotify delivers the audio as raw audio pushcallback. How can MC accept such a stream?

[)p(]

OR JRiver could lay out the necessary foundations needed for developing plugins that would support Spotify.

For example:

o Support display of lists generated by plugins, for example as a playlist or maybe as a part of the library.
o when an item in this list is played, the plugin can hook on to this play event and determine what to do with the item.
o Spotify delivers the audio as raw audio pushcallback. How can MC accept such a stream?

This is essentially what the third party plugin for squeezeserver does. In fact it works much better and has more and better implemented features then Logitechs.

[JimH]

JRiver might risk legal problems if we helped others create software that circumvented the agreements that the services have with the record labels.

[JimH]

I guess MOG is now Beats Music:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/12/05/will-this-new-service-hurt-pandora-or-sirius-xm.aspx

[glynor]

JRiver might risk legal problems if we helped others create software that circumvented the agreements that the services have with the record labels.

I don't think this would actually be an issue, so long as the system implemented was general purpose.  You'd be making a system that would allow end-users (third parties) to write a plugin that would enable this kind of integration (which could be used for any kind of streaming service that offers an API, or maybe even other stuff too).

Then, it would depend on some nice guy actually writing the freeware plugin.  I don't see how JRiver could be liable for the actions of a third party using your API.  And, Spotify DOES allow freeware applications to plug into their API, just not commercial applications, so the third-party developer wouldn't be doing anything "wrong".  They're writing freeware code that bridges between the Spotify API and the JRiver (hypothetical) plugin API.  How is that different than writing a freeware iOS app that uses the Spotify API (bridges between the iOS API and the Spotify API)?  Or any other conceivable purpose for the Spotify API?  They're all going to be a bridge between commercial API over here and Spotify API over there.

Worst case, I could see this third-party developer getting hosed if Spotify decided that wasn't cool, and they yank the API key.

The bigger issue is who is going to be this nice guy, and how nightmarish would it be for JRiver to develop an API that would allow plugins to work that way.

[imugli]

I think our integration with Netflix, Hulu, and Youtube has been very important, even if we couldn't always do what we would have liked to do with it.

I agree this has been true in the past, however if I'm being devil's advocate, as Youtube adds features (as they have been lately) and as Netflix has scrapped the bulk of their API, other devices (eg Roku, Chromecast) are now pushing past MC in terms of functionality with these services. I know there's not a whole lot you can do about Netflix scrapping their API or Google not making certain YoutTube functions available through their API - I'm just putting it out there. Stating the obvious, if you will. 

[)p(]

I agree this has been true in the past, however if I'm being devil's advocate, as Youtube adds features (as they have been lately) and as Netflix has scrapped the bulk of their API, other devices (eg Roku, Chromecast) are now pushing past MC in terms of functionality with these services. I know there's not a whole lot you can do about Netflix scrapping their API or Google not making certain YoutTube functions available through their API - I'm just putting it out there. Stating the obvious, if you will. 

I think as services become more and more important and the local library less important mc will have to make deals directly with these services like Roku does to be able to offer the best experience. For me personally I already have seen our daily use of mc dropped a lot because of how much we use these kind of streaming services outside of the mc platform. Either because of a better experience or lack of support for the services we use.

[crisnee]

If the loopback function worked more cleanly (at least for me) I would use MOG through MC for MC's dsp functions. But I can't get it to play nice with MOG so....

-Chris

[imugli]

I think as services become more and more important and the local library less important mc will have to make deals directly with these services like Roku does to be able to offer the best experience. For me personally I already have seen our daily use of mc dropped a lot because of how much we use these kind of streaming services outside of the mc platform. Either because of a better experience or lack of support for the services we use.

I beleive Roku started life as Netflix' set top box before being spun off quietly before launch, thus the good treatment they receive.

[Don W]

Would it make sense for JRiver to build Spotify and Netflix integration as plug-ins and sell them separately from the main program? Maybe you could work out deals with content providers where you gave them a percentage of each plug-in sold.

[glynor]

Would it make sense for JRiver to build Spotify and Netflix integration as plug-ins and sell them separately from the main program? Maybe you could work out deals with content providers where you gave them a percentage of each plug-in sold.

You cannot sell an application that supports Spotify.  See above.

[Don W]

You cannot sell an application that supports Spotify.  See above.

Copied from Libspotify main page:  "If you would like to make use of Spotify in a commercial way, then please contact our Partner team before you engage in any work."
https://developer.spotify.com/technologies/libspotify/

[glynor]

Copied from Libspotify main page:  "If you would like to make use of Spotify in a commercial way, then please contact our Partner team before you engage in any work."
https://developer.spotify.com/technologies/libspotify/

Right, which is exactly what I quoted above (hence the "see above"), and then...

Last time I wrote to Spotify, I got a form letter response and that was all.

You could write and tell them you think integration in programs like JRiver would help them sell more Spotify.  I'm matt at jriver should they want to talk.

I'm not sure what more you think they should do here.

[Don W]

Is just a friggin suggestion...

[imugli]

Ok, let's all calm down here :-) Spotify would be nice but it's probably (most likely, if not definitely) not going to happen.

I did like the suggestion on another thread of someone creating an MC Theater View app for Roku. That seems like a great way of getting the best of both worlds, given API restrictions... 

[MrHaugen]

I believe the only real solution is for some 3'rd party plugin to be developed. I do believe there will be serious problems developing a fully functional plugin for Theater View though. As far as I know, there's quite a few limitations here. In fact, I've never even seen a plugin functioning with a UI in Theater View. Standard view is another matter. It's more likely that something could be created there.

[JimH]

Spotify was mentioned in this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/business/media/a-stream-of-music-not-revenue.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=0

[imugli]

Spotify was mentioned in this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/13/business/media/a-stream-of-music-not-revenue.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=0

Good article. The Freemium model is one the perplexes me a little, especially with Music.

The market is immature and is now fragmented (with Google, XBox, Spotify, Pandora, MoG, Rdio, iTunes Radio, YouTube about to get in on the game).

At least half of the ads on Spotify free are for Spotify Premium, so I don't imagine they're making that much revenue from advertising, and the value add proposition of Spotify Premium is obviously not compelling enough for most people to upgrade.

I get the feeling we'll see a fair bit of consolidation in this market in the next couple of years. My bet is on Google (and by association YouTube), iTunes and XBox (those with the budgets behind them to be able to lose on these services for a few years) picking off the likes of Spotify, Beats and Rdio.

[imugli]

OK I got it!

I had a "Duh" moment earlier and have now got Spotify Web Player working in both Standard and Theater View. It's not *ideal* or *seamless* or *integrated* given that you need a keyboard / mouse to use it and it still relies on the Spotify page itself, but it works :-)

The answer? Simply add Spotify as a web page to Theater View, and add it as a Connected Media page in Standard View.

I found I need to use IE as the browser engine (it gets stuck on connecting if I'm using Chromium but that may have something to do with an SSL error I get because of my VPN service, so try it using Chromium - it may work for you).

If you need a step by step, let me know and I'll post one.

[tmarnik]

I'm a little late, but I just had to get my +1 in for imugli's earlier comment about improving the Performer Store to turn it into a Spotify killer.

[JimH]

I'm a little late, but I just had to get my +1 in for imugli's earlier comment about improving the Performer Store to turn it into a Spotify killer.

Why don't you or imugli start a thread on that.  I don't think we could do anything quickly, but it would be interesting to hear some details.

[imugli]

Why don't you or imugli start a thread on that.  I don't think we could do anything quickly, but it would be interesting to hear some details.

Done

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86074.msg588617#msg588617