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Author Topic: Newb - Help deciding.  (Read 2365 times)

J.R.

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Newb - Help deciding.
« on: December 05, 2013, 03:53:56 pm »

Planning on reformatting our desktop over the Christmas break (upgrade from W7 to W8) and looking to revamp how we handle our media (currently use Winamp/VLC for most playback). I've been recommended MediaMonkey Gold and JRiver as the two front runners that both seem to meet most/all of my criteria (below) and would love your help deciding which to go with.

-My current library is 99.9% FLAC audio (currently on a Qnap NAS...that also needs upgrading) files that I currently play back on the PC via Winamp. Both programs cover playback here.

-I'm looking to switch to Ogg Vorbis for my phone (portable) listening and want auto sync and format conversion (from FLAC to OGG) in the process. Both appear to sync and convert.

-Want to fill in missing cover art metadata etc. Both appear to gather missing info.

-We have a WDTV Live connected to our main music/HT system that gets all critical listening/movie viewing. The PC is connected to an old Pioneer receiver via stereo analog RCA connections but is primarily used for organization etc rather than actual (critical) listening. I'd like the ability to "push" (via DLNA/UPnP) playlists to the WDTV and have the same audio playing on the PC and WDTV for parties etc. MM has some challenges here, does JR?

-I'd like to control what's being played on the PC and/or the WDTV via our Android phones/tablet (I believe JR has "Gizmo" for this, correct? MM looks like would I need something like BubbleUPnP?)

The HT forum I'm on that helped me narrow it down between MM and JRiver seems to largely be pushing toward JRiver due to (according to them) JR having a better GUI that's easier to use and out of the box better audio (bit perfect) as well as all the functionality that I'm looking for as per above. However, pending imformation on those issues... is it an extra $25 I don't need to spend, particularly as I'm not using it as my primary player/the GUI etc doesn't matter as much to me. Not sure the bit perfect thing does either as the PC is connected via analog not spdif and the WDTV is responsible for the digital output in the "critical" system. Would love to know how to max out the audio quality in that scenario though too!

So the $25 question (glad it's not a million! :D ) is:

Does JR solve my dilemma's with being able to "push" playlists to both the PC and the WDTV at the same time and does Gizmo allow me to control audio on both/either the PC and the WDTV Live via our tablet or smart phones (as well as playback on those mobile devices)? Those are main areas of weakness I've found with MM given my needs.

Looking forward to your responses, thanks!
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Matt

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 04:04:09 pm »

Welcome.

You might just give MC a try.  There's a free trial.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

J.R.

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 04:09:52 pm »

Welcome.

You might just give MC a try.  There's a free trial.

I'm trying to do as much homework ahead of time as possible. I've got twin 1 year old boys at home and I'm in the middle of a bathroom reno as well. My spare time is VERY limited and hence valuable. So I want to know for SURE something's going to work before I invest time in to installing, setting it up etc.

If/when I'm pretty sure JR does more of what I want than MM does I'll certainly be starting with the trial to get it set up before shelling out though, thanks ;)
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J.R.

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 04:20:46 pm »

Another question I just while browsing the forum is regarding the software licence...

As I mentioned in the OP, I currently have a 2 bay Qnap NAS that I eventually plan to change out to a DIY 4+ drive NAS that I'm still deciding on an OS for (Linux, Openfiler etc). I notice that JR has a Linux version which could go on a Linux run NAS... Would the licence be transferable? Could I run it on both (W8 and Linux) machines (and would they play nice)?

Having the server run JR via Linux  would have the added benefit of not needing the PC on to push media as well... This could be another selling feature over MM as they don't have a Linux version as yet (though they are apparently slowly working on something...).
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glynor

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 04:27:53 pm »

-My current library is 99.9% FLAC audio (currently on a Qnap NAS...that also needs upgrading) files that I currently play back on the PC via Winamp. Both programs cover playback here.

Of course.

-I'm looking to switch to Ogg Vorbis for my phone (portable) listening and want auto sync and format conversion (from FLAC to OGG) in the process. Both appear to sync and convert.

It does.  MC's Handheld Sync engine can automatically convert-on-the-fly when syncing, and can cache the converted files too if you'd like (so they don't have to be re-done each time).  However, you may find that you don't need to sync to your mobile devices at all, because MC will also stream to them.  You can use the Gizmo app (or JRemote for iOS devices) to stream from your home server directly to your mobile devices, and access your entire Library from anywhere you have a working network connection.

-Want to fill in missing cover art metadata etc. Both appear to gather missing info.

It does, though this will be something you will want to test out.  It absolutely can look up cover art, and has some features to pull in other metadata as well.  However, the quality of these sources can vary (of course), and you may find (if you are OCD like most of us here) that you get better results with a bit more elbow grease.  Luckily, MC's extremely flexible database makes it easy to query your files in almost any manner that you can dream up, which makes it easy to build "working lists" to go through.

There is also this clever solution provided by my fellow forum steak-eater MrC, which could be very handy for your needs:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84268.0

-We have a WDTV Live connected to our main music/HT system that gets all critical listening/movie viewing. The PC is connected to an old Pioneer receiver via stereo analog RCA connections but is primarily used for organization etc rather than actual (critical) listening. I'd like the ability to "push" (via DLNA/UPnP) playlists to the WDTV and have the same audio playing on the PC and WDTV for parties etc. MM has some challenges here, does JR?

I don't know about the WDTV Live device in particular, since I'm a HTPC user, but MC does certainly support DLNA in a whole variety of ways.  Many users here stream out via DLNA to a wide variety of devices, and MC has extremely flexible support in this area.  Unfortunately, the DLNA "standard" (which really needs the scare quotes) is such a horrorshow that I can't speak to what specific devices support and don't without owning a device.  Your best bet here is to try the 30-day trial, and let us know if you have trouble or questions.

I will also say that if you find something broken here, the developers are extremely attentive and will work with you to get support straightened out if it is possible to do so (assuming the WDTV Live isn't so brain-damaged as to be useless).

Another thing to consider is that MC has extremely flexible Zone support.  You can easily set up a PC with multiple sound devices to output to a variety of different Zones all by itself (and sync zones, even on remote PCs running MC via the network).  DLNA devices are treated as Zones, and you can "play to" them like you would on the PC directly.  I'm a HTPC guy, and I haven't personally tried linking a local playback zone to a DLNA zone, so someone else would have to chime in here, but I'd guess probably.

-I'd like to control what's being played on the PC and/or the WDTV via our Android phones/tablet (I believe JR has "Gizmo" for this, correct? MM looks like would I need something like BubbleUPnP?)

Yes.  Gizmo is both a remote control app, and a "streaming player".  You can also remote control copies of MC using MC itself (running on another machine), which is unbelievably slick.

Does JR solve my dilemma's with being able to "push" playlists to both the PC and the WDTV at the same time and does Gizmo allow me to control audio on both/either the PC and the WDTV Live via our tablet or smart phones (as well as playback on those mobile devices)? Those are main areas of weakness I've found with MM given my needs.

The only thing I can't give you a firm "yes" on is WDTV, and again, that's only because I'm hedging and saying "I don't have one of those and haven't personally tried it".  Everything else yes, and probably that yes.
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fitbrit

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 04:31:24 pm »

Yes you can do the things you want, with one caveat:
If you want to play music to the WDTV and the PC at the same time, you may find some sync issues if you're playing the same tracks to both. Not an issue, if you're playing two different songs to different 'zones' at a party, of course. This is because the DLNA timing and local playback timing are hard to sync.

Currently, you cannot transfer licences between OSes.
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glynor

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 04:32:46 pm »

Another question I just while browsing the forum is regarding the software licence...

As I mentioned in the OP, I currently have a 2 bay Qnap NAS that I eventually plan to change out to a DIY 4+ drive NAS that I'm still deciding on an OS for (Linux, Openfiler etc). I notice that JR has a Linux version which could go on a Linux run NAS... Would the licence be transferable? Could I run it on both (W8 and Linux) machines (and would they play nice)?

Basics on the licensing:

* One purchase of MC for a particular platform, entitles you to run it on as many PCs as you (personally) own, within reason.  There is an "activation" scheme for the licensing, but this is designed to prevent leaks of license keys on the Internet (and stuff like that).  You are absolutely able to run it on multiple PCs with one purchase.

* Notice, I said "for a particular platform".  MC is licensed separately for Windows, OSX, and Linux.  The licenses are not transferable.  The JRiver staff has said they're considering offering "package" discounts for owning multiple platform copies, but they've not committed to it and nothing is available or announced at this time.

* Gizmo is free and included for Android.

* JRemote is a third-party client for iOS (of which I'm, personally, a huge fan) that is not free.  I will say, however, the developer has proved to be super-responsive.  There are other choices for multiple platforms as well, since it supports DLNA.
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J.R.

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 04:47:07 pm »

Awesome (and prompt) info guys!! Thanks!

Did a quick google on the WDTV and JR and it looks to be supported as both a renderer and server:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DLNA
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=73744.0
http://wdtvhd.com/index.php?showtopic=12905

Yes you can don the things you want, with one caveat:
If you want to play music to the WDTV and the PC at the same time, you may find some sync issues if you're playing the same tracks to both. Not an issue, if you're playing two different songs to different 'zones' at a party, of course. This is because the DLNA timing and local playback timing are hard to sync.

Currently, you cannot transfer licences between OSes.

Yeah I was worried about that...wish there was an easy way to have "whole house audio" over network with a local machine, assorted clients etc and have it all play in sync :( Somebody way smarter than me should work on that :lol: I'd imagine the issue is the processing speed of assorted devices and things like gap-less playback (some with, some without) etc are the major hurdles. You'd think with everything being networked there could be a way to send feedback to the the main controller (in this case JR) from the assorted devices that would then send the media at the slowest devices capability...I know, sounds easy :D

Shame it's not transferable across platforms...I'm of Scottish decent and would loathe shelling out another $50...lol

No worries on JRemote not being free Glynor, I'm allergic to i-products...lol


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glynor

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 05:51:56 pm »

If you want to play music to the WDTV and the PC at the same time, you may find some sync issues if you're playing the same tracks to both. Not an issue, if you're playing two different songs to different 'zones' at a party, of course. This is because the DLNA timing and local playback timing are hard to sync.

Yeah, I didn't think of this.  DLNA devices use their own internal timing, and as a developer you don't have very much (or any) control over what latency they add, how the buffers work, or any of those things (each of which is crucial if you want to sync the zones).  Hoping for perfectly-in-sync playback from a local PC to a DLNA device is probably a pipe-dream.

Yeah I was worried about that...wish there was an easy way to have "whole house audio" over network with a local machine, assorted clients etc and have it all play in sync :( Somebody way smarter than me should work on that

Oh, you certainly can do this, it just won't sync super-well with DLNA devices.

Multiple copies of MC itself, however, do sync pretty well.  It isn't perfect enough (in phase, and to the millisecond) for using two sets of speakers in the same room playing the same thing at the same time.  But, a Kitchen Zone and a Living Room Zone?  Or other "across the house" playback?  That works quite well.

Of course, sync is better if both zones are driven by the same PC, but MC's built in network zones keep themselves in sync pretty darn well.  I use it for my basement and porch (in one zone driven by my server machine in the basement) and the living room (from the HTPC) regularly.  My house isn't huge and with the back door opened up to the porch, it still works fine for my purposes.

I'm pretty sure Matt (the "guy in charge" at JRiver who commented earlier in this thread) does this at his house too, so it is well supported.  Here's a thread from a while back where Matt discusses it with another user: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80166.0
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J.R.

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 06:07:49 pm »

Yeah, I didn't think of this.  DLNA devices use their own internal timing, and as a developer you don't have very much (or any) control over what latency they add, how the buffers work, or any of those things (each of which is crucial if you want to sync the zones).  Hoping for perfectly-in-sync playback from a local PC to a DLNA device is probably a pipe-dream.

Oh, you certainly can do this, it just won't sync super-well with DLNA devices.

Multiple copies of MC itself, however, do sync pretty well.  It isn't perfect enough (in phase, and to the millisecond) for using two sets of speakers in the same room playing the same thing at the same time.  But, a Kitchen Zone and a Living Room Zone?  Or other "across the house" playback?  That works quite well.

Of course, sync is better if both zones are driven by the same PC, but MC's built in network zones keep themselves in sync pretty darn well.  I use it for my basement and porch (in one zone driven by my server machine in the basement) and the living room (from the HTPC) regularly.  My house isn't huge and with the back door opened up to the porch, it still works fine for my purposes.

I'm pretty sure Matt (the "guy in charge" at JRiver who commented earlier in this thread) does this at his house too, so it is well supported.  Here's a thread from a while back where Matt discusses it with another user: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80166.0

Thanks again! Yeah it would be two separate rooms (Family/HT room with WDTV and Living room with PC) that are apart, with partial walls and a kitchen and hallway between them as well as occasionally say our tablet connected to some small speakers on the patio outside the kitchen (and remote controlling the audio via gizmo). It's an open plan though so hopefully it would be MINOR differences or it could be very distracting I'd imagine. I guess the only way to find out is to try it.

Starting to second guess getting the Windows version now actually...I assume to "push" any media to the WDTV the PC would have to be on. So if it isn't, we're still using the WDTV to pull off the NAS and it's remote app on the tablet etc. Then using Gizmo/JR if it's on to push... Seems like the wife would not like that :-\ I may have to hold off on JR until I get my DIY NAS built (on Linux) and buy the Linux version...hmm so many decisions...
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pcstockton

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 07:44:40 pm »

Yes, the PC must be running for the JRiver Media Server to be running.

One note.... If you initiate playback via MC/JRemote/Gizmo, you can only pause or stop the playback using the WDTV Remote.  No seeking.
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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 02:43:17 am »

Hi JR,

Without going into too much detail, I've used MediaMonkey Gold, VLC, Windows Media Player and FooBar for many years - until I discovered JR Media Center.  In terms of pure functionality and library management, it is in a class of its own.  I would highly recommend giving it a try.

I still use VLC (on my system it plays video slightly better than MC).
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J.R.

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2013, 11:17:24 am »

Yes, the PC must be running for the JRiver Media Server to be running.

One note.... If you initiate playback via MC/JRemote/Gizmo, you can only pause or stop the playback using the WDTV Remote.  No seeking.

We largely use our tablet as our "remote" anyway, So I assume we'd just control playback via Gizmo. Either way pausing is usually all we need to do anyway.

I might have to try out the trial version on our PC when I format it and if I purchase, buy the Linux version and hopefully have time to build the new NAS...
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connersw

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2013, 03:00:36 pm »

I guess I'll chime in since I have a WDTV Live in our guest bedroom, and I've used Media Monkey in the past. 

-We have a WDTV Live connected to our main music/HT system that gets all critical listening/movie viewing. The PC is connected to an old Pioneer receiver via stereo analog RCA connections but is primarily used for organization etc rather than actual (critical) listening. I'd like the ability to "push" (via DLNA/UPnP) playlists to the WDTV and have the same audio playing on the PC and WDTV for parties etc. MM has some challenges here, does JR?

As has been mentioned, latency over DLNA is the real issue here.  There will be noticeable lag if the rooms are close together, and it gets worse as the tracks change.  If it gets too far out of sync, MC will pause and sync it back up pretty well.  So in my experience playing a playlist: after a track change you get ~30-seconds of very lagged playback then ~5-seconds of pause, then it plays back together pretty nicely again.  This really isn't acceptable for me hearing this constant out of sync then long pause at the start of every track. 

If you are playing all-day-DJ and manually changing each track, there will always be latency.  Sometimes as much as ~2-seconds and sometimes as little as milliseconds, but there will always be some.  Unfortunately, it is not enough for MC to auto-correct either. 

The only thing I've found to work well for multi-room playback over DLNA is to make albums or play lists into one track.  MC is actually in sync the best when it auto-corrects, so I play one track, then have it auto-correct after it switches over at the beginning of the album, and it stays pretty well in sync through out the album.  Convert Format and Media Editor that come with JRiver make this easy to do, but you do need to plan ahead if you are going to create a playlist for a party.  Additionally, you can't really have guests adding tracks to an ongoing playlist.

I don't see this as an issue with MC and WDTV Live, as much as it is an issue with WiFi and DLNA.  I have to do the same thing when I trick the LG TV in our master bedroom into being a Renderer.  Other multi-room play back systems like Sonos have latency issues as well.  I have better luck running multiple versions of MC on 2-PC's, but latency over WiFi is still somewhat of a concern there too. 

-I'd like to control what's being played on the PC and/or the WDTV via our Android phones/tablet (I believe JR has "Gizmo" for this, correct? MM looks like would I need something like BubbleUPnP?)

WDTV Live is a Renderer so you can control it via Gizmo or through MC on your PC; however, there are some limitations.  As pcstockton mentioned, if you initiate playback with MC or Gizmo, you have limited use of the WDTV Live Remote.  I typically do not switch back and forth between Gizmo and the remote (it is usually one or the other), but it is something you should definitely consider.  Even something as simple as skipping a track ahead when listening to music will no longer work on the WDTV Live Remote.  Additionally, you can not use Gizmo to link and unlink Zones.  If you wish to add music to your other room, you would need to go to the PC. 

The other consideration is that control through the PC or Gizmo can sometimes have lag due to DLNA.  It is the worst when Zones are linked in MC (ie playing in two rooms at the same time) and when you give multiple commands in a row.  Gizmo can be used as a remote in 2-ways: 1) from that Zones Playing Now screen or 2) using it as a Theater View Remote (where the screen basically acts as a track pad w/ a drop down menu for some additional commands).  While I prefer the 2nd option when using Gizmo as a remote with my HTPC, I do not like it at all as a remote for WDTV Live.  It is a little too laggy and giving it commands to skip forward or back (ie swiping left or right) means you are giving it multiple commands in a row which causes it to hang.  When you use the Play Now screen, it is a bit more responsive, but there is some lag.  For example, if you advance a track by touching on the playback status bar, the audio will skip ahead, but it will be ~3-seconds before the playback status bar moves to the correct location on your Gizmo screen.  In other words, it is difficult to know exactly where you are along the timeline of the track. 

I prefer the views I have set up in Gizmo and scrolling for navigating vs using the WDTV Live menu and remote so if I am looking for something to play and forget it, I prefer to use Gizmo.  If I am going to be hopping all around, skipping ahead in tracks, etc, then I use the WDTV Live remote due to response time.

One last thing to note, I can not get videos to rewind or fast forward on my WDTV Live regardless of using Gizmo, a PC, or the WDTV Live remote.  Audio works fine.  They look like they are doing it, but then pause for a second and go back to the very beginning of the video.  You mention this is not an issue for you, but in real life you would be surprised how much of an issue it can be.  Imagine being 40-minutes into a show, you try to rewind for 10-seconds because you couldn't hear something, and instead it now starts over from the beginning with no way of advancing through what you have already seen.  This could be an issue with my DLNA settings in MC, but I have yet to find something that works correctly (I'll touch on this a bit more later).

In regards to the Linux/licensing issue, since you are rebuilding your NAS, you may want to consider building an actual home server and using WHS 2011.  Granted, $50 is $50, but a $50 purchase of WHS 2011 does give you some advantages over OpenFiler or FreeNAS.  You could then use the same JRiver Windows license on your server and PC.  And on your laptop, and the HTPC you eventually end up building (see below). 

Some closing thoughts:
You mention you are not really interested in playing audio/video through MC on your PC, but more as using it as a server.  I would suggest that you try it out, and you may end up rethinking that idea.  You will be missing out on some of JRiver's best features.  There is a reason the WDTV Live is in the spare bedroom, and the family room and basement have HTPCs.  I have used a lot of media players, organizers, and servers over the years, and for perfect, seamless play back of any format, there simply is not a better program.  Before I close, I'll cover a few of what I think MC's biggest flaws are; however, they are all out weighed by its powerful playback.

The only advantage Media Monkey has over MC is its ability to manage Windows file structure.  You can use the Rename, Move & Copy features in MC, but they are not automatic like they are in MM, and they are not intuitive.  MC is designed for you to organize and view your library within MC itself.  I get around this by having the basics of my file structure already set up and using Tag&Rename to rename my folders.  It would be nice if MC automatically created your file structure for downloads the way it does for ripping, but it is not there yet like Media Monkey is.  See this thread for details:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=85295.0

The other issue I have with MC that I mentioned earlier is DLNA support.  There are no set device profiles like you get with a program like Servio.  There is also no real trouble shooting guide to set up your profile correctly.  It is pretty much just trial and error to find the settings that work for your device.  Response in the Media Network forum is also poor compared to other Interact forums.  I still do not have video working the way I would like on either my TV or WDTV Live. 

Lastly, JRiver's development team put a lot of time into developing powerful and technical features, but they do not always go back and "polish" them to be more user friendly or fully flushed out.  For example, there is still a lot that could be done with Gizmo, Theater View, Zones, User Accounts, etc.  I am hopeful that they will come back to them, but resources must be getting thin with Mac & Linux development.  I understand why they do this from a business perspective (ie sell more licenses), but it can be disappointing reading things discussed but never really worked on. 

As a father of twin 5-year old boys that is in the middle of a whole house reno, I understand time is limited.  I do suggest you try the 30-day trial though.  I have come and gone from JRiver 3-times now, and I have used all sorts of other software, but in the end, I still find it to be the best thing out there.  The power and customization options really are second to none.  Besides, now that your boys are 1, the tough times are behind you. 
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J.R.

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 04:15:00 pm »

Thanks for the in depth reply!

I'm not sure about WHS...doesn't look like it's going to be supported by MS:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/windows-home-server-is-dead-but-we-shouldnt-mourn-it/

I actually have a HTPC...when our old main desktop died, it replaced the desktop and the WDTV replaced it. I don't really miss it TBH...
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connersw

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Re: Newb - Help deciding.
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2013, 04:28:37 pm »

It has been replaced, but it will be supported through 2025. 

It currently costs $50:  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832416443

Compared to Windows Server 2012 R2 Essentials which costs $500, I'm good with the older software. 

An HTPC with JRiver vs an HTPC with MCE or something else is a different experience.  You won't know until you try.
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