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[Phil LD]

Is there a convenient way to control RS232 with JRiver Media Center?

[glynor]

No.

[Ekpen]

No.

;
Why "no"?

i have written several times before, asking  or pleading for Mc to detect RS232 devices. I have a couple of Sony devices and Moxa Nport serial  appliances that are on my system, MC does not see any of these devices.
My sony appliance houses my BD movies.
Thanks.
Ekpen.

[JimH]

Is this for home automation?  Maybe you could describe what the application is.

JRiver makes serial software to do terminal emulation, but most of that switched to network usage a long time ago.

I can appreciate that serial connections would work for controlling devices, but is there more?

[glynor]

;
Why "no"?

I don't know, I was answering the question asked.

I will say, though, that MC isn't designed really as a home automation controller.  It is a media player.  It is a fancy one, and can serve some of these purposes, but RS232 control is exceedingly complex.  It might be best to use a tool designed for that, rather than having the feature glommed onto MC.

Girder Pro can do RS232 control.  MC is extremely scriptable, and can be easily controlled by an application like Girder.

So, I guess my question to you would be:  Why do you want this integrated into MC?

[Ekpen]

Is this for home automation?  Maybe you could describe what the application is.

JRiver makes serial software to do terminal emulation, but most of that switched to network usage a long time ago.

I can appreciate that serial connections would work for controlling devices, but is there more?

.

Greetings:
 Home automation, yes, basically MC should be able to detect serial devices connected to a PC. In my Sony appliances, I have almost 300 plus BD media discs. I also used to have another Sony RS232 megachanger that plays dvd, I gave up on it  and finally sold it. I still have BDP CX 7000, a few serial devices such as Moxa Nport 5610-16, WTI CMS-16.  Devices are connected to these apliances, and these devices should appear under the tree. They are legacy devices.
If these devices appear under the tree, the contents will be displayed.
I do not like to use IR because they are one way, serial devices are two way devices and are more robust.
Just last March, I sold my SC-09- Pioneer Elite Susano - a Pioneer flagship receiver costing over 5K, MC was not able to detect it.
Pioneer is about to release an upgrade to this Susano, I am ready for it. It "WILL" definitely have a serial port. I will hope MC should be able to see any of these serial appliances.
I am willing to help: If you want the Moxa Nport or WTI-CMS-16 or both, I am ready to yank them from my system, for you to use in testing.
A user on the forum also at one time tried to write a serial interface, he could not complete it, because according to him MC does not broadcast "Event", or similar to this.

Thanks again,

[fitbrit]

Won't the AVR have network support?

[eapool]

I have been asking for serial control or tcp control of external devices (set top boxes) for a while.  I wrote a plug-in to control the DirecTv box, but I am limited in what MC exposes through either interface (COM or MCWS).  I agree that rs-232 control can be complex and it is VERY dependant on the device that is connected to it.  While there is a low level rs-232 standard, there is no standard for home automation control.  To expect JRiver to be able to handle any and all rs-232 devices seems a bit extreme.  My recommendation is to follow Glynor's advice and find some intermediate software to handle the rs-232 control and use the existing JRiver interface.  If there is additional information that you need JRiver to provide in the interface, then you can request that.

Alex

[Ekpen]

Won't the AVR have network support?

Greetings:

The AVR in question was made in 2008, so some network support don't just make it. A network support in an appliance does not neccessary mean it is controllable via IPs.
My Sony Mega changer has network support, yet it does not  allow for controlling. If you select RS232 within the menu, yes, you can controll it via rs232.
The contents still have to be made visible , by broadcasting the "events"
That goes to show you the legacy rs232 is still very powerful.
In the old days, almost everything used RS232,. I used this when I ran BBS in Kansas City, to set up games, carry e-mails through GTpower BBS and Fidonet via modems - [modems in those days have RS232]
The issue is MC does not detect the connected  rs232 devices. If the device is detected, one should be able to just click on it, then the contents will be displayed. Of course, to use or play you will still need power dvd /anydvd and other 3rd party utilities.

Ekpen.

[Ekpen]

I have been asking for serial control or tcp control of external devices (set top boxes) for a while.  I wrote a plug-in to control the DirecTv box, but I am limited in what MC exposes through either interface (COM or MCWS).  I agree that rs-232 control can be complex and it is VERY dependant on the device that is connected to it.  While there is a low level rs-232 standard, there is no standard for home automation control.  To expect JRiver to be able to handle any and all rs-232 devices seems a bit extreme.  My recommendation is to follow Glynor's advice and find some intermediate software to handle the rs-232 control and use the existing JRiver interface.  If there is additional information that you need JRiver to provide in the interface, then you can request that.

Alex

Greetings:
I was going to write you to get your attention on this issue again.
Thanks for chimming in.
I am not asking for JRiver to write control interface, that will be too complex, just for it to detect devices connected to it. It should be able to detect my Sony mega changers, Moxa Nport, or WTI-CMS-16 appliances and let another utility take care of how to play the contents.
Note: If MC detects the device in this case for example my Sony Mega changer, it should be able to scan the  entire  contents in that changer to a MC database. You can use any 3rd party program to play.
Thanks again,
Ekpen.

[fitbrit]

Greetings:

The AVR in question was made in 2008, so some network support don't just make it. A network support in an appliance does not neccessary mean it is controllable via IPs.
My Sony Mega changer has network support, yet it does not  allow for controlling. If you select RS232 within the menu, yes, you can controll it via rs232.
The contents still have to be made visible , by broadcasting the "events"
That goes to show you the legacy rs232 is still very powerful.
In the old days, almost everything used RS232,. I used this when I ran BBS in Kansas City, to set up games, carry e-mails through GTpower BBS and Fidonet via modems - [modems in those days have RS232]
The issue is MC does not detect the connected  rs232 devices. If the device is detected, one should be able to just click on it, then the contents will be displayed. Of course, to use or play you will still need power dvd /anydvd and other 3rd party utilities.

Ekpen.

You also said: Pioneer is about to release an upgrade to this Susano, I am ready for it.

That was the receiver I was referring to. I interpreted this to mean that Pioneer is about to launch a new model, and that you intend to buy it. If that's correct, will the new model not have more extensive network support? Are you tied to the Pioneer brand?

[eapool]

Note: If MC detects the device in this case for example my Sony Mega changer, it should be able to scan the  entire  contents in that changer to a MC database. You can use any 3rd party program to play.

The thing is, standard RS-232 communication is a very 'passive' interface.  That is to say, most rs-232 serial devices listen and wait to respond.  Some may send a string out the rs-232 port without being solicited, but it is unusual.   When two devices are connected by a standard rs-232 communication cable, neither device is made aware of the other.  This is not like USB, where the drivers get automatically installed, etc. For MC to 'detect' any device, they would have to poll for every device.  They would have to know what the appropriate response is and know the difference between to devices with similar responses.

You mentioned rs-232 modems, if you remember, back then, the computer did not known that there was a modem connected until you ran your BBS software or your terminal software. The terminal software would initiate the call and the bbs would answer the phone.  The two programs would negotiate a few things, like speed, stop-bits, etc, and then you would be all set.  However, this worked because there was a known standard for modem communication.  The 'strings' being sent were defined.  This has not been done in the automation/ home theater world.  So, the strings that a denon would expect are very different from the string that a sony would expect.  In fact, the communication strings change from model/ type of device by the same manufacturer.  Without a defined standard, it is impossible for MC to automatically detect automatic connection.

I know the strings for the DirecTv box, so I can write a plugin for that box, but I wanted my plugin to be more flexible, so required the user to tell me the communication string that they want to use.  I gave them the ability to use tokens for specific info that was pulled from MC, but the user was responsible for determining the communication string.

Bottom line:  Serial RS-232 sends bits out on a wire, that is all it does.  It does not care what those bits are and the RS-232 standard does not define how those bits are configured.  In order to do what you are asking there needs to be a higher level standard.  Since this does not exist for home automation equipment, it is up to the user to develop the interface.  MC cannot develop the standard, and they cannot write a common interface that works with all equipment.

I hope this was clear,

Alex

[glynor]

Great answer, Alex.  I was going to respond with something similar, but yours was much better than what I could have come up with.

[Ekpen]

You also said: Pioneer is about to release an upgrade to this Susano, I am ready for it.

That was the receiver I was referring to. I interpreted this to mean that Pioneer is about to launch a new model, and that you intend to buy it. If that's correct, will the new model not have more extensive network support? Are you tied to the Pioneer brand?

 Greetings:

Note: [My request or complaint regarding lack of RS 232 support  is more than 2 years old]

Pioneer is about to release a new flagship. Denon, Marantz, Anthem, and Yahama have all released new Flagships. Yamaha has the CX or CA 5000 separates. I wanted to pluck $ on the Yamaha, but I decided to wait. I wrote Pioneer two months ago, inquiring about new models to replace the SC-09, or SC-79 which I would have purchased, but I did not, because it does not have 11.2, or better 17.2
Yamaha has 11.2, now Pioneer will not want  to be left alone. So I am sure the Susano -SC-09 will have a replacement or if not something higher than the current SC-79, which may be ok except not enough channels. Remember the SC-79 has HDBT {HDbaseT}? forgot the correct name . The version 2 or so will have not only Serial but USB, in addition to the IP.
I was one of the first 10 customers in the U.S.A/Canada who took delivery of the first batch released  around  May 2008. I had to let it go March this year. It worked without flaws.
I am tied to Pioneer Elite Product, when it comes to AVR. If there is no Pioneer Elite avr, assuming, It will be Yamaha.

The Pioneer elite Elite SC-09, is one of the most beautiful AVR ever made. It is like a Rolls Royce parked in front of your house<grin> "NOTHING BEATS this AVR either in LOOKS or PERFORMANCE".
I am ready for a new upgrade to this "BEAST". Hopefully, the new Susano or something that resembles it will have modern electronics, such as IP control and RS-232, and USB controls.
The RS-232 control in the SC-09 was so elaborate, it will take a whole crew of I.T to write something to control it.  Iruleathome tried to do it, they were not very successful due to the complexity.

I am really referring to RS-232 controls for appliances for Bluray changers or megachangers. The Pioneer Elite will have its controls tied to "IcontrolAV 2014 or 2015".
My point is MC should be able to display the contents of any RS-232 devices, scan the contents and browse, then let someone use a power dvd to play bluray.
The RS-232 in some appliances are not so advance or complex. compared to the ones in AVR.
My request: for simple appliances - let MC - detect, scan rs232 devices, allow users to browse contents, then use Power dvd or so to play movies.

Thanks.
Ekpen.

[fitbrit]

Ekpen, I understand your sentiments. I feel the same way about my Onkyo 11.4 flagship receivers.

[JimH]

My point is MC should be able to display the contents of any RS-232 devices, scan the contents and browse, then let someone use a power dvd to play bluray.
The RS-232 in some appliances are not so advance or complex. compared to the ones in AVR.
My request: for simple appliances - let MC - detect, scan rs232 devices, allow users to browse contents, then use Power dvd or so to play movies.

I think this might take significant time to implement, and have limited appeal.

[WinoOutWest]

A few suggestions if you want to control RS232:

Have a look at EventGhost - a great, easy to use open source automation tool that has great RS232 support -pretty sure your AVR is supported out of the box.  Also plays relatively nicely with JRiver.
I have 4 amps all controlled via RS232 controlling volume on 6 different zones.

I use iRule for my device client to bring it all together and embed WebGizmo in a panel with the volume controls.

http://www.eventghost.org/
http://iruleathome.com/

[glynor]

My point is MC should be able to display the contents of any RS-232 devices, scan the contents and browse, then let someone use a power dvd to play bluray.
The RS-232 in some appliances are not so advance or complex. compared to the ones in AVR.
My request: for simple appliances - let MC - detect, scan rs232 devices, allow users to browse contents, then use Power dvd or so to play movies.

I think we understand what you're asking for it to do, but what you don't seem to understand is how complex that "seemingly simple thing" is for JRiver to accomplish.

Essentially, they'd have to hand-code the behavior for every single device that you want it to auto-detect.  It is irrelevant that the devices are "simpler", because there is no way for it to auto-detect new devices on a serial port.  The only thing they could do would be to poll any possible COM ports on the computer, periodically, and then try to detect what device is connected, and then try to enumerate its contents.  The first thing is bad enough (it would have to repeatedly poll all of the possible COM ports on the machine), but more importantly, the latter two are a nightmare.

They'd have to add specific code for every single possible consumer electronics device.  At least every brand and type of device, but as eapool pointed out, there isn't a standard, and device manufacturers change their mind all the time (Denon devices this year don't necessarily use the same system as ones from 2007).

The long-and-short of it is this: Automation control systems are a mess.  There are no standards.  Devices still use old (dumb) RS-232 ports, which don't do any of the nice, fancy, auto-detecting stuff that USB does.  And every manufacturer and device is different.  Often not "slightly" different, but wildly different.  That's why Jim said:

I think this might take significant time to implement, and have limited appeal.

That's also why only high-end devices even have these ports... Because, only "professional installers" typically have the tools to make use of them (and even then, it often involves some amount of hand-coding to the specific devices the client is using).

[Ekpen]

I think we understand what you're asking for it to do, but what you don't seem to understand is how complex that "seemingly simple thing" is for JRiver to accomplish.

Essentially, they'd have to hand-code the behavior for every single device that you want it to auto-detect.  It is irrelevant that the devices are "simpler", because there is no way for it to auto-detect new devices on a serial port.  The only thing they could do would be to poll any possible COM ports on the computer, periodically, and then try to detect what device is connected, and then try to enumerate its contents.  The first thing is bad enough (it would have to repeatedly poll all of the possible COM ports on the machine), but more importantly, the latter two are a nightmare.

They'd have to add specific code for every single possible consumer electronics device.  At least every brand and type of device, but as eapool pointed out, there isn't a standard, and device manufacturers change their mind all the time (Denon devices this year don't necessarily use the same system as ones from 2007).

The long-and-short of it is this: Automation control systems are a mess.  There are no standards.  Devices still use old (dumb) RS-232 ports, which don't do any of the nice, fancy, auto-detecting stuff that USB does.  And every manufacturer and device is different.  Often not "slightly" different, but wildly different.  That's why Jim said:

That's also why only high-end devices even have these ports... Because, only "professional installers" typically have the tools to make use of them (and even then, it often involves some amount of hand-coding to the specific devices the client is using).

Greetings Glynor:
I do respect your opinions in these thread:
I am not asking MC folks to try to develop ways to control every possible appliances with RS 232.You did refer to USB- Let us get to the definitions of "USB" and RS232.
Starting with RS 232- it is really a name assigned to the ports. The actual RS232 is a pair of chips 16550? or so, chips that could be found on motherboards or on I/O cards either soldered or plug in. I occassionally have purchased some from Radio Shack long time ago, when I used to have buffer  over runs on those ports.

The USB is of couse "Universal Serial Bus. OEM wanted ways to reduce costs of  PCs, and also for Windows to  have plug and play features. There could be other reasons why USB came in to being. The chips that are in the motherboard or I/O cards are called "UART" meaning "Universal Assynchronous Receiver Transmitter, similar to the acronym for USB- correct.
In otherwords, USB in my opnion is the inferior brother of RS-232 , <grin> on this.
Take note that  we have now RS-232 to ethernet cable or converter, same is true with RS232-USB, and also USB to ethernet. In layman's language, they are serial devices all of them, but the only difference is the ports 25 or 9 pins, and USB has its own port defined.

I have devices here that look like Ethernet, but really is serial- Moxa Nport 5610-16, WTI-CMS-16.

If a CD/DVD/BD drive or device has USB, MC auto detects it and even asks if you want to browse its contents.
Why not have same features or flexibility with RS 232?
We know RS-232 is legacy device, drivers may not even be needed in some cases.
I am NOT asking MC to program interfaces for AVR or all devices with serial ports. That will be crazy and unthinkable.
All I ask is that any appliance excluding AVR[ which is in a different class by itself] should be detected, scan its contents and let  user  use ''Browse" menu to look at the contents of BDs CDs,DVD.
Remember too, not too long ago, printers only have either parallel port-centronics and RS-232 ports. We do prints in those days with printers devices - correct?
No reason for MC to get involve with complicated controls.
If we let this RS-232 feature  go without implementing it, it is going to surface again, similar to "Theaterview and "Eye Candy". A new or would be customer interested in controls -[BASIC controls of CD,DVD, BD players ] would bring up this topic again.

Thanks to everyone that responded or contributed to this thread.
Ekpen.

[DoubtingThomas]

I think this might take significant time to implement, and have limited appeal.

Please add B&K Reference50 to the list...  I know B&K is no longer in business... but you know... <kidding>

[glynor]

Starting with RS 232- it is really a name assigned to the ports.

No, it is not.  It is a communications protocol.

In telecommunications, RS-232 is the traditional name for a series of standards for serial binary single-ended data and control signals connecting between DTE (data terminal equipment) and DCE (data circuit-terminating equipment, originally defined as data communication equipment[1]). It is commonly used in computer serial ports. The standard defines the electrical characteristics and timing of signals, the meaning of signals, and the physical size and pinout of connectors.

While it is typically used with serial ports, the standard is a communications protocol.  And, it defines only the low-level communications implementation (how bits get from one end of the cable to the other).  It says almost nothing about the "control language" that the devices on each end "speak" (and what it does, relates to using them for modems).

I've done a substantial number of custom installs using RS-232 for room control, and I can personally guarantee, there is absolutely no way to easily "detect", scan contents, and let users browse anything via RS-232, without explicit knowledge about what specific devices are attached.  Each individual device has its own API.  So, the "language" that your Sony disc changer "speaks" is entirely different from the one a Pioneer changer speaks, which is different from (obviously) what a Polycom HDX speaks.

[Ekpen]

No, it is not.  It is a communications protocol.

While it is typically used with serial ports, the standard is a communications protocol.  And, it defines only the low-level communications implementation (how bits get from one end of the cable to the other).  It says almost nothing about the "control language" that the devices on each end "speak" (and what it does, relates to using them for modems).

I've done a substantial number of custom installs using RS-232 for room control, and I can personally guarantee, there is absolutely no way to easily "detect", scan contents, and let users browse anything via RS-232, without explicit knowledge about what specific devices are attached.  Each individual device has its own API.  So, the "language" that your Sony disc changer "speaks" is entirely different from the one a Pioneer changer speaks, which is different from (obviously) what a Polycom HDX speaks.

I know is a protocol, as I said, in a laymans' interpretation. I am writing off what I knew more than 25 years ago. I may have thrown in something that is not exactly accurate in terms of definition.
Thanks for your correction.
Ekpen.

[Sparks67]

I am really referring to RS-232 controls for appliances for Bluray changers or megachangers. The Pioneer Elite will have its controls tied to "IcontrolAV 2014 or 2015".
My point is MC should be able to display the contents of any RS-232 devices, scan the contents and browse, then let someone use a power dvd to play bluray.
The RS-232 in some appliances are not so advance or complex. compared to the ones in AVR.
My request: for simple appliances - let MC - detect, scan rs232 devices, allow users to browse contents, then use Power dvd or so to play movies.

Thanks.
Ekpen.

Epken,

If you primary want a home automation system to control your Sony 7000ES changer, then here is a few choices.  
1)  My Movies is about $100 and it controls both Sony 7000ES Changer and 777ES DVD changers.  My Movies works via a USB/RS-232 interface.  I never tested it.

2)  I own the Control4 home automation system, and I have 3 Sony 7000ES changers and 1 Sony 777ES changer.  (I used to own 2 Sony 777ES DVD changers, but it died).  Going through a Denon AVR-5308. Denon is the best receiver around. http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-5308ci. I have other devices that I run through control4, but it depends on what you want to control.   Control4 is not that expensive, but you have to buy controller system, and pay for the install by a professional installer. Software programming varies on the dealers, but it is around $300 + HC-800 controller .  Control4 should have your IP drivers for the receiver and your TV.  You might look to see if someone has used HC-300 controller, but it can handle 2 changers.(Used HC-300 might be around $100)  There is a developer here on J river that has made a 1 way IP driver to work with JRiver.  I never tested it, but hopefully he develop a 2 way driver.  

3) Savant Systems is apple based, but it is more expensive home automation system.  Although, it is the fastest hdmi switching that I have seen.  

Sony is not going to release any new Bluray changers in the future.  Control4, My Movies, Savant systems no longer support the changers, since the changers are no longer available.  The big expense is going to multiple TV's.  You have to buy an HDMI matrix switch.  My installer has tried several different brands of HDMI matrix switches, but several had issues with HDMI switching.  These HDMI matrix switches can cost around $1000 US to $16,000 depends on the number of sources.  This is currently with 1080P HDMI matrix switching. Expect more issues with UHDTV (4k and 8k) on HDMI matrix switching.  
  

If you have "Only" 1 changer, then I rip to hard drive and sell your Sony 7000Es changer.  They are going for good prices on ebay.  

[ivb]

FWIW, I use CQC to control a TON of devices via IP, RS232, USB, etc.  This is a monstrously difficult task and to be honest, not one that MC can hope to compete in. CQC has something like well over 1M lines of code. Pricing is staggered, with the entry level controlling 10 devices on 1 machine being $200. That would cover needs here. The price for a "full" capacity system is $850.  While that may sound expensive, it is a paltry sum compared to the (true) competition.

I'm slowly writing a robust 2way driver between MC and CQC, right now a 1way driver exists using MC XML to populate CQC's media repository. That 2 way driver is really the glue you're looking for, although to be honest its moving slower as I still have some fundamental things blocking me from cutting over to MC from SageTV. Once the driver is done, you'd be able to have CQC monitor MC and automatically kick off tasks. It would monitor the REST/MCWS fields and do whatever you want based on logic thats as simple or as complex as you want.

BTW, you may think this is a simple thing, but as I've learned, things start simple and rapidly escalate. Thats why getting a real home automation package is so important, instead of whatever is the cheapest that you can afford.

[Ekpen]

FWIW, I use CQC to control a TON of devices via IP, RS232, USB, etc.  This is a monstrously difficult task and to be honest, not one that MC can hope to compete in. CQC has something like well over 1M lines of code. Pricing is staggered, with the entry level controlling 10 devices on 1 machine being $200. That would cover needs here. The price for a "full" capacity system is $850.  While that may sound expensive, it is a paltry sum compared to the (true) competition.

I'm slowly writing a robust 2way driver between MC and CQC, right now a 1way driver exists using MC XML to populate CQC's media repository. That 2 way driver is really the glue you're looking for, although to be honest its moving slower as I still have some fundamental things blocking me from cutting over to MC from SageTV. Once the driver is done, you'd be able to have CQC monitor MC and automatically kick off tasks. It would monitor the REST/MCWS fields and do whatever you want based on logic thats as simple or as complex as you want.

BTW, you may think this is a simple thing, but as I've learned, things start simple and rapidly escalate. Thats why getting a real home automation package is so important, instead of whatever is the cheapest that you can afford.

Thanks for your input. I know it is not simple to write code to control RS-232 devices. I thought CQC is out of business- correct?
Let me know the progress of your program.
I like Mega changers. I like the shiny discs. I used to own Kenwood DVD changer 4  of them, a Sony 777ES which I sold because I do nto watch DVD movies anymore. DVD movies do nto look good on my Mitsubishi 92840  screen. BDs are the way to go for me. I also do not like to rip movies.
Where do you get CQC now?
I may also look at mymovies to see if it is flexible.

Ekpen.

[ivb]

Thanks for your input. I know it is not simple to write code to control RS-232 devices. I thought CQC is out of business- correct?
Let me know the progress of your program.
I like Mega changers. I like the shiny discs. I used to own Kenwood DVD changer 4  of them, a Sony 777ES which I sold because I do nto watch DVD movies anymore. DVD movies do nto look good on my Mitsubishi 92840  screen. BDs are the way to go for me. I also do not like to rip movies.
Where do you get CQC now?
I may also look at mymovies to see if it is flexible.

Ekpen.

Far from, CQC has never been stronger. There was a chance 3 years ago that the author (Dean) was going to go back and get a job, but he announced plans to open source the code. But then, additional partners came on board and its now going hard.

I'll advise as I get further on the MC-CQC driver, although its difficult to carve out time as there's still several blockers to me actually cutting over from SageTV extenders to MC via HTPC as a front end that are outside my control.  Until there's an actual benefit, it doesn't make sense for me to spend $600 on an HTPC.

[eapool]

All I ask is that any appliance excluding AVR[ which is in a different class by itself] should be detected, scan its contents and let  user  use ''Browse" menu to look at the contents of BDs CDs,DVD.
Remember too, not too long ago, printers only have either parallel port-centronics and RS-232 ports. We do prints in those days with printers devices - correct?

Again, I am getting hung up on this 'detect' thing.  One major difference between USB and RS-232, is that the USB driver alerts the operating system when a device is attached.  The operating system can then request information from the device regarding what it is, version , etc.  This is part of the USB defiinition.  If you manufacture a motherboard and put usb ports on it , you HAVE to handle this.  If you write an OS and advertise that it supports USB, then it MUST handle this.  The RS-232 spec. does not require this, there is nothing in the RS-232 serial communication spec., that says you need to alert the OS to something being connected to the port and have a method to interigate that device for information.  This is makes the first request extremely difficult.

Back when printers where using parallel communication, the user was required to install a driver for that printer.  The printer wasn't detect and the computer could go find the correct driver on the internet.  A disk came with the printer and the user installed the appropriate driver.  This is because the specification for parallel communication has no provision for auto-detect.  This is exactly the same for MC or any other software out there, if you want to connect a rs-232 serial or parallel device to is, the user must somehow tell the software what is connected.

So, MC would need a bunch of 'drivers' (one for each type of device that they want to control) and the user would have to 'install' them as required.  I don't see any real return on investment for this type of model.  They have however given us the ability to write our own plug-ins to serve this purpose.  I do not know if everything that is required is available through MCWS, but I think you will have better luck using a plugin or something like eventghost to do this.

As a side note:  How old is this computer that you want to interface with?  Are you using a usb - serial converter? I haven't seen a computer in recent years with a 9-pin serial connector on it.  I know some motherboards will include a header.  Just wondering how you were planning to make the hardware connection.

Alex

[ivb]

So, MC would need a bunch of 'drivers' (one for each type of device that they want to control) and the user would have to 'install' them as required.  I don't see any real return on investment for this type of model.

Spot on. CQC has both hundreds of device drivers included in the base product, and probably another hundred that are just available on the forums written by users but not yet tested enough to be formally included. There's both an uber-simple way to write a driver (only minimal programming knowledge needed), and an OOP language to write the complex drivers. MC falls into the complex approach.

As a side note:  How old is this computer that you want to interface with?  Are you using a usb - serial converter? I haven't seen a computer in recent years with a 9-pin serial connector on it.  I know some motherboards will include a header.  Just wondering how you were planning to make the hardware connection.

Alex

Actually RS232/RS485 is how well over half (used to be 100%) of the current products still open themselves up for external control. Security systems, lighting, multi-room audio, even Denon single room receivers until they merged with Marantz only had RS232. My brand new projector, motorized screen, TV, irrigation, multi-room audio all use RS232. The primary reason is that you can run extremely long cat5 cables and still make the connection by just using RJ45->RS232 cable adapters and the manufacturer doesn't have to deal with any TCP/IP stuff.

I personally use both a 8 port PCIe RS232 card and 3 Global Cache GC100-12 RS232 over IP. (Like I said, I have one of the biggest DIY Home Automation installs i've ever heard of.)

But I say again, Home Automation is not something MC can remotely compete in, resources better spent elsewhere. MC has already given us a great gift in MCWS, CQC (and other Home Automation packages too) allow us to write drivers to monitor & control it as well as any other equipment we might have.

FWIW, I started down this road purely to control my Denon 3805. Then I realized I could integrate it with other things to enhance a/v experience:
- automatically close blinds and dim lights if I start a movie.
- If the phone rings and I'm the H/T room watching TV/movie and there's no motion or lights on elsewhere, nobody is home and CQC should announce who's calling via my security system speakers (no switching delay on home theater speakers)
- True "universal" remote, I can use a crappy remote and press play/pause/next, CQC uses the active Marantz input to determine whether i'm watching SageTV, Roku, BluRay player, Sonos (or Squeezebox), and routes the command to the right device.
- Log what shows my kids are watching via SageTV extenders. (although now they typically just watch netflix on their chromebooks which isn't loggable)

All that is doable without a touch of programming, only point & click.

I could go on & on, but you get the point. All that exists today for $200-$850 for a pro-level package, based on how big/small your system is. (Its even cheaper if you use something that requires more programming knowledge.) Anyone doing home automation is going to spend $2K-$30K on hardware, so thats a rounding error. There is no way MC could possibly have a decent ROI, better to just enhance MCWS to allow external controllers to have a more robust integration.

[flac.rules]

I could see MC having a role in home automation, but its probably better to have it at a command level. I feel MC could be better when it comes to being the "master" of other programs, I would rather run everything from MC than from something else. That is sesnding cammands overy different protocols in a flexible way, and plugins for the most widespread stuff. The plan to support "RS232 plug and play" is unrealistic, its a tremendos amount of work for not a very huge gain.

[ivb]

Every program wants to be the "master", and I give massive credit to MC for building MCWS and acknowledging that may not be the fact. But there's a few massive flaws with that:

1) Are you really doing "home automation"? Do you mean "alternative form of manual control" (aka, instead of using several remotes or a universal hardware remote, use a universal software remote). Honestly I don't see the personal ROI on that, it is a LOT of work if all you're going to do is manually instantiate tasks.  To me, automation is the automatic execution of things, such as knowing to turn on the receiver and set it to a given input just because you started MC (or pressed play or whatever). Creating a logic server (do x if y) or event server (once per <time unit> or <when this device does that>) is really really hard to build.

2) The second you want to be the master, you have to provide users with the ability to create custom GUIs to both control & display the current state. No two people will have the same hardware, custom GUI is a must-have. If you're going to spend thousands of dollars on hardware, you're not going to want some text based mechanism or pre-canned interface. Look at the CQC Gallery, there's a really nice home floorplan one. (I have one for my house but not remotely as nice, I only spent an hour creating the floorplan).

The latter is monstrously difficult, there are dozens of different screen objects you'll need to create.
And then, you'll need a mechanism to execute actions against the various devices under control. To not have a polluted screen, you're going to need more complex widgets. (ie, a switchbox widget, that shows red if your zone is off, green if your zone is on, and pressing it is a toggle)

3) You'll need to support multiple viewing devices. People will want to interact both via their Windows laptops, Apple iPhones/iPads, or Android phones/tablets, which means you need a viewer for all 3 to see your screens, with only screen resolution being different.
We use our laptops perhaps 5% of the time, 95% is via a mobile device. But, removing any one of those options would be fatal.

There's additional hassles, but those are enough to prove my point. MC as master HA controller is a losing proposition.

[flac.rules]

I am not saying that MCWS is bad, it is good. But MC is the best program for being the "master" because it already is the program where user input is the most important.

1) Yes, I am talking about home automation. Having MC support all the hardware is a too big undertaking, the priority should be controlling software that in turn controls other things.

2) MC should have a lot more options when it comes to customizing the GUI, even if they are not going down this route.

3) MC already does this, but they need more flexibility, like choosing the "home icons" and what they do in gizmo, and so on.

[eapool]

Getting a little of topic:  I use eventghost a lot.  All of my remote commands got to eventghost and it passes the info to MC as required (through command line calls).  As required, I can hook in more automation through eventghost and not rely on MC.  So, in my case eventghost is the master and it uses MC as a tool.  In an earlier iteration of my system, I had three dtv boxes, mc, a blu-ray player, and a wii going to a matrixed switcher to send those sources to four tv's in the house.  For awhile, I had a home-grown app that did this, but evetually I switched to eventghost.  I let event ghost route the remote signals and handle commands to the switcher, so the sources could all be controlled by one remote per room.  I would never expect MC to do that.  Eventghost was the perfect solution for that.

Not to speak for ivb, but it sounds like he uses CQC as the master and let's MC do what MC does best.

I think too many people see MC as the front end, so assume it should be the master and control all things.  There are many programs out there to handle the automation tasks.  Sure MC may need to add some things to the MCWS interface to allow us to do more things (some type of channel per tuner info would be great  ), but I don't think that means MC needs to be the master.

Alex

[flac.rules]

That is fine if you only need control of media, and Home automation, I do not, I also like to play games, I would like to hook up Steam to my setup, my emulator frontend (Hyperspin), I get that not everybody wants to use MC as a master, I am not saying it NEEDS to be the master, but I think for many cases (including mine) it would be the best master.

[ivb]

Apologies, I don't think I'm clearly explaining myself. Let me use some screenshots to demonstrate (although these are mine, i've barely spent any time designing floorplans. Some people are doing amazing things with 3D floorplans as their backdrop, but 60 minutes is my limit on diagramming my house)

What I mean by "home automation" is this: (BTW I rarely interact directly with CQC, I use NFC tags, voice control, or intelligent monitoring of devices to decide what to do next)

Events that are either scheduled, or (more importantly) occur when something else happens.



Using Robust Logic control (this is the simplest one, you could get a lot more complex


For GUI control, I mean this seriously ugly screen, but its my laptop & touchscreen that are barely used, I use mainly mobile devices.
This one shot will show you the super-set of what I mean. If you look at the CQC Gallery, you'll see people who've done some amazing stuff with 3D floorplans/etc.






But again, the best HA controller is one you don't even touch. I can pick up my phone or walk to the wallmounted Nexus7, tap a button, and say "Dining Room Speakers On" and CQC does it.

Honestly, I can't even change Watched vs Unwatched in TheaterView, and thats been requested forever as it requires MC engineers. That is the pimple on a mosquitos ass in terms of Home Automation. To build the above toolset to allow users to create what they personally own (and more) has taken 15+ manyears. And, it still only sells for $200-$850.

How many people would buy MC at $200 if it did Home Automation?  Certainly no more than 200, and very likely a lot less. While 200 x an extra $150=$30K may sound like a lot of money, to do the above is measured in manyears.

Better to spend 1/10 of that time expanding MCWS or purging their todo list, and allow HA packages to do HA. (And maybe help me write this CQC driver :-) )

[flac.rules]

Your explanation is fine, I understand what you mean, I myself have a quite extensive an advanced home automation system. JRMCs priority in this regard should be the communication with other programs, not with he hardware itself. It is not feasible to take on the whole hardware-side of the equation.

However, this not useful only for home-automation, tighter control of other programs is useful for a lot of reasons, not only HA, i have mentioned examples earlier. A more flexible UI is useful not only for HA but for general purposes. I see many different HA-related programs and they seem to make money, 200 people seems very low too me, but I am sure other people are better at judging the market.

Programs are needed for the "touch-part" of the system, yes, everything that goes without any user interaction AND connected do doing a specific computer task is very nice, but the part "you don't even touch" isn't relevant for this discussion, it works fine as it is and doesn't need any integration towards MC.

[ivb]

Sorry, I barely slept last night, so to confirm what I think you mean by " JRMCs priority in this regard should be the communication with other programs, not with the hardware itself. It is not feasible to take on the whole hardware-side of the equation.":

I think that means
A) (easier) expanding MCWS, so you can both send richer information to other programs and receive richer information from other programs
B) (harder) Allowing user to create a GUI with information received from other programs , and by pressing a button, to send & control other programs (which then control the hardware)

Is that complete?  If so, i'm fully in agreement with the former, but the latter seems like a staggering amount of work for little return. Corporate Home Automation customers are going to want as few moving parts as possible so they're not going to stack programs. Heck, 99.9999% of them go with Control4, AMX, or Crestron because they won't even touch PC-based systems. DIY'ers are a much thinner crowd then you'd expect, and the whining increases exponentially as the price increases.  Look at the amount of support MC has to provide for a one time $50 license, a one time $200 license would be even more. Realistically this is a $500 or so program at minimum, when I priced out MainLobby 7 years ago it was $1500 to achieve parity with my $850 CQC setup (that has a $100/year license fee).

But now let me switch sides - I *totally* agree that to satiate Home Automation users, TheaterView needs to be able to display & control information from CQC/other. I even said so in this post, but there are so many more basic things needed first. Even something as simple as the ability to create a custom worded, text-based TheaterView menu item hitting a CQC Web Server URL could work, but its a 3rd step. Right now TheaterView needs steps 1 (allow users to reorder all submenu items such as HuluPlus, ) & step 2 (display & interact with MC fields, ie toggle between watched & unwatched onscreen).

[Ekpen]

So, MC would need a bunch of 'drivers' (one for each type of device that they want to control) and the user would have to 'install' them as required.  I don't see any real return on investment for this type of model.  They have however given us the ability to write our own plug-ins to serve this purpose.  I do not know if everything that is required is available through MCWS, but I think you will have better luck using a plugin or something like eventghost to do this.

As a side note:  How old is this computer that you want to interface with?  Are you using a usb - serial converter? I haven't seen a computer in recent years with a 9-pin serial connector on it.  I know some motherboards will include a header.  Just wondering how you were planning to make the hardware connection.

Alex

Alex:
I have already given up on this topic. But base on your question about the age of this Pc, I build my Asus P6X58, with  I/O card with two ports.
Another PC I was building was a Gigabyte X58A-UD5. It developed issues, Gigabyte has to swap it with an XL - Assassin mobo, I can not find an XL desktop case. Using a tower case is not feasible in my situation.
The Asus - I may revive using another case if I can not find a good desktop case with good ventilation.
At one point the Asus finished with Win 8 64 bit, MC 19 installed. It only lasted 10 days. I then swapped the Asus with  a UD5 , that lasted 2 weeks. They both have similar issues. Both Mobos are of the same chip set. Since I have also sold my SC-09 AVR, no point rushing to build any PC, But if Pionner comes out or announces an Elite model for 2014 , then that will push me to finish bulding these HTPCs.
Alex, thanks for your clarification. I know there are lots of HTPCs that could be built with RS232 I/o card thrown in to it.

Ekpen.

[flac.rules]

Sorry, I barely slept last night, so to confirm what I think you mean by " JRMCs priority in this regard should be the communication with other programs, not with the hardware itself. It is not feasible to take on the whole hardware-side of the equation.":

I think that means
A) (easier) expanding MCWS, so you can both send richer information to other programs and receive richer information from other programs
B) (harder) Allowing user to create a GUI with information received from other programs , and by pressing a button, to send & control other programs (which then control the hardware)

Is that complete?  If so, i'm fully in agreement with the former, but the latter seems like a staggering amount of work for little return. Corporate Home Automation customers are going to want as few moving parts as possible so they're not going to stack programs. Heck, 99.9999% of them go with Control4, AMX, or Crestron because they won't even touch PC-based systems. DIY'ers are a much thinner crowd then you'd expect, and the whining increases exponentially as the price increases.  Look at the amount of support MC has to provide for a one time $50 license, a one time $200 license would be even more. Realistically this is a $500 or so program at minimum, when I priced out MainLobby 7 years ago it was $1500 to achieve parity with my $850 CQC setup (that has a $100/year license fee).

But now let me switch sides - I *totally* agree that to satiate Home Automation users, TheaterView needs to be able to display & control information from CQC/other. I even said so in this post, but there are so many more basic things needed first. Even something as simple as the ability to create a custom worded, text-based TheaterView menu item hitting a CQC Web Server URL could work, but its a 3rd step. Right now TheaterView needs steps 1 (allow users to reorder all submenu items such as HuluPlus, ) & step 2 (display & interact with MC fields, ie toggle between watched & unwatched onscreen).

Correct, I want tighter integration with other program, both in terms of A) and B).

I don't think corporate customers and their need are very relevant, as you say, they will probably use some premade solution. However you forget that this is not only useful for HA, it is very useful for a lot of other uses, which is a much broader audience, like for instance in conjunctiong with games as earlier mentioned.

[ivb]

Correct, I want tighter integration with other program, both in terms of A) and B).

I don't think corporate customers and their need are very relevant, as you say, they will probably use some premade solution. However you forget that this is not only useful for HA, it is very useful for a lot of other uses, which is a much broader audience, like for instance in conjunctiong with games as earlier mentioned.

Oh I also steam (as time allows). I assume you mean in TheaterView?  Have you tried the "external program" command option there to just launch steam big picture then switch to your other controller, or do you mean something more?

[glynor]

Yeah, Theater View can launch all sorts of external commands, including HTTP calls if you're clever.  I'm not sure what is needed for this part of the equation...

I don't actually use that anymore (because I'm using the Windows 8 Start Screen for that purpose now), but in the past I had links in Theater View to launch Steam and activate modes on my receiver (via external program > script that calls a girder command).

[ivb]

Yeah, Theater View can launch all sorts of external commands, including HTTP calls if you're clever.  I'm not sure what is needed for this part of the equation...

Speaking entirely personally which should be ignored by MC since I haven't even cutover yet from SageTV HDx00 to HTPC/MC: 

Babystep 1: Have a noshow option for current "Webpage Functionality" but never actually have TheaterView out of focus, and have the browser auto-shutdown.  Basically an http get is how I handle Android calling CQC, but I don't want to see the webpage come up. My particular usage is having CQC turn devices on/off, and i'd know if it worked since I could actually see the device. Or I'd just issue the call 2-3x behind the scenes.

Not major enough to warrant me calling it out in a separate thread since there are more fundamental blockers first, but since you asked...

[eapool]

I too agree with A above.  I really would like more and better information available through MCWS.  MC has been adding this over time and I am sure they will continue to do so.  What I would really like to see is the ability to raise events through MCWS, but I am not sure how feasible this is.  I have done some research on this and in theory, if the client were to register with MC, MC could pass events through MCWS, but I haven't attempted to implement this in any real way.

Also,  I know that the skinning and customization of theater view has been an issue for a while.  It doesn't affect me much, because my home automation doesn't really need to be on my tv, so I don't have a strong opinion on this topic.  Would I like tighter integration with Netflix, Google Play, Amazon, and Steam?  Sure, but MC is at the mercy of the available api, so for now I use work arounds.  I have been trying to find decent api documentation for Amazon for quite a while.  People (roku) are building apps for these services, but it doesn't appear that they are available for the general public.  So, I agree that tighter integration of online media is a great goal and I think it falls into something MC should consider.  

However, true home automation (lights, security, temperature) those things don't fit in MC to me.  If there is an issue, I want the controller to tell my phone, not my tv.  If I need to change something, I will use my phone, not my remote (I might not be in front of the tv).  Sure, if I want to watch a movie, I want MC to tell my controller: go to movie mode.  I could just as easily, have my controller tell mc: start the movie.  Anyway, the original post was regarding rs-232 to control.  I think that there is a case for MC to be able to control specific device (regardless of the interface), but I think that the user needs to develop the plug-ins for this since it is so device/ application dependent.  MC may need to add functionality/ information to the MCWS interface (since COM is no longer supported).

Alex

[ivb]

I too agree with A above.  I really would like more and better information available through MCWS.  MC has been adding this over time and I am sure they will continue to do so.  What I would really like to see is the ability to raise events through MCWS, but I am not sure how feasible this is.  I have done some research on this and in theory, if the client were to register with MC, MC could pass events through MCWS, but I haven't attempted to implement this in any real way.

What type of events?

The way I'm envisioning CQC/MC integration, CQC continuously monitors the MCWS just like it continuously monitors any other hw or sw device. It'll be able to tell if something changed as the field value would change. Hence, trapping events is something that should happen in the HA program.

Unless you meant MC has its own event engine and does <x sw command> only if <y event> happens.

[eapool]

I would like MC to raise an event when something changes.  Specifically, I am trying to build a plug-in that will allow me to eliminate the IR control of my DirecTv boxes.  I have a limited plug-in that uses the com interface and when it sees the channel change event, it polls MC to determine the current channel.  The problem is that this only works for live tv, if MC needs to change the channel to record a program, the event isn't raised and the current channel isn't set.  So, the plug-in, isn't really useful.  I have requested some way of knowing what channel each tuner should be tuned to.  I will poll for this information if necessary, but an event when a tuner channel change is required is optimal.  JRiver has indicated that this may be implemented at some point, so I am waiting patiently.

For the bigger picture, any event could be raise.  Zone change, next track, anything really and a lot of them already are through the com interface, but since they are trying to move away from that, they need to be added to the MCWS interface to make it complete.  I much prefer event driven, then polling for control.

Alex

[glynor]

Babystep 1: Have a noshow option for current "Webpage Functionality" but never actually have TheaterView out of focus, and have the browser auto-shutdown.  Basically an http get is how I handle Android calling CQC, but I don't want to see the webpage come up. My particular usage is having CQC turn devices on/off, and i'd know if it worked since I could actually see the device.

This isn't necessary.

You can issue web calls via scripts on the command line via a whole host of utilities.  Curl and wget would be two ways that are well supported, common, and free.  You can also do it directly through vbscript using the MSXML2.XMLHTTP.3.0 object:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77436.0

[flac.rules]

Yeah, Theater View can launch all sorts of external commands, including HTTP calls if you're clever.  I'm not sure what is needed for this part of the equation...

I don't actually use that anymore (because I'm using the Windows 8 Start Screen for that purpose now), but in the past I had links in Theater View to launch Steam and activate modes on my receiver (via external program > script that calls a girder command).

Yes, but I would like a bit tighter integration with this, and preferably don't have to be so clever HTTP calls is nice tool, which can do a lot, and it helps, but I would like to se it being easier to make the kind of logic that lets me have a library of my games (ideally in MC), when the game is selected, the right game is launched through a command, a http-request is sent to my HA-system, and the IR-blaster send a command for my TV to be in game-mode. I realize the command to launch the game has to be made by me somehow though. Making this somewhat flexible "commandsending"-system where you can string together commands, and make custom entries in the library/theatre view (preferably in a somewhat non-convoluted matter ) would be a nice start.

[glynor]

I would like MC to raise an event when something changes.

I agree that the event model in COM is quite limited (basically, MC only raises events when playstate-related things change).

Unfortunately, there is no event-driven model for REST based web APIs (at least, not a well-supported, universal one) and JRiver is putting all future automation development efforts into REST, for the obvious reasons.

[ivb]

This isn't necessary.

You can issue web calls via scripts on the command line via a whole host of utilities.  Curl and wget would be two ways that are well supported, common, and free.  You can also do it directly through vbscript using the MSXML2.XMLHTTP.3.0 object:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77436.0

Boy I really need caffeine today. Isn't that how to control MC from outside MC?  If so, I can already do that directly inside CQC.

What I was looking for was a way within TheaterView to tell CQC to do something.

But as previously mentioned, its a nit thing, I first need the other stuff linked to in my "IVB CHecklist" post.

[glynor]

Yes, but I would like a bit tighter integration with this, and preferably don't have to be so clever HTTP calls is nice tool, which can do a lot, and it helps, but I would like to se it being easier to make the kind of logic that lets me have a library of my games (ideally in MC), when the game is selected, the right game is launched through a command, a http-request is sent to my HA-system, and the IR-blaster send a command for my TV to be in game-mode.

Why couldn't you do this with either VBScript or PowerShell?

I have a LOT of multi-step scripts all over the place.

[glynor]

Boy I really need caffeine today. Isn't that how to control MC from outside MC?  If so, I can already do that directly inside CQC.

What I was looking for was a way within TheaterView to tell CQC to do something.

Steps:

1. Write a tiny batch file, PowerShell script, or VBScript that makes the HTTP call.
2. Call this from Theater View via the external command functionality.

In the thread, I posted an example of a WSF script (vbscript) that calls a HTTP command.  It happens that it was calling it to access MCWS on a remote machine, but you could use it as an example to call ANY HTTP URL.

Am I missing something?