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[jctcom]

Ok.  I have read too much and Now I am not sure what I should be looking at.  I currently have a PC that I run JRiver on with all my audio files on a Synology NAS (DS1512+).  The PC is an Intel DX58SO based custom computer with 12GB RAM, EVGA GTX 660 TI Video Card.
The Video card does not seem to reliably support ASIO with high end 6 channel 24Bit / 96KHZ audio  (Music).  I currently rip my Blu-Ray and DVD-Audio discs to HDD (Multi-Channel FLAC) and am starting to get into DSD now as well.

I would like an audio solution that will run my audio from JRiver on my PC to my Onkyo Receiver (TXNR1008) preferably via HDMI for music.

What is the best solution.  I can't seem to find a Sound card that has HDMI and has a proper multi-Channel ASIO driver mentioned as one of it's features.  DO I need a DAC setup?  if so what should I be looking at that will provide both multi-channel and stereo native audio in high resolution as mentioned above.  I do have RCA Analogue Multi-Channel on the receiver if that is the best way.  

Also computer is currently running Windows 8.1 and I would like to completely bypass the crappy Windows audio drivers that seem to try to take over everything and change it all to the same thing be it multi-channel 24/96 or stereo of the same!  I just want the native PCM sound from the audio files with the native number of channels that are included in the individual files.  If there is any "decoding" etc to be done I would like to files to be passed RAW to my receiver and let it do any decoding if necessary.

Some advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Carl.

[Arindelle]

What is the best solution.

This is a hard one to answer without knowing what your expectations are and your budget.  You mention you are starting to get into DSD (your Onkyo dac does not support this), so I take it you mean "audiophile" quality (not using this as pejorative btw)?. You don't want anything but your receiver to decode/render does that mean you have set it up on a DLNA network?

Also computer is currently running Windows 8.1 and I would like to completely bypass the crappy Windows audio drivers that seem to try to take over everything and change it all to the same thing be it multi-channel 24/96 or stereo of the same!

other than 8.1 windows which seems like everyone is complaining about, if you use JRiver as the renderer and you have configured it for bit-perfect playback correctly, this should not be an issue. For 2 channel PCM you can go directly into your receivers DAC (I see an optical in and maybe digital coax in but gave up -- two many inputs/output on the drawing it would take me an hour to find em all  ) you could run directly from your motherboard. For multi-channel audio there are a bunch of cards out there -- you can Google Lynx audio or check Mwillems' posts here. They do cost about 3/4 what your amp does though. There is a reasonably good inexpensive card from ASUS Xonar series that might do the trick for you - it handles HDMI 1.3 for multichannel. I suppose it would depend on how much you listen to truly "mastered for multi-channel audio" as opposed to 2 channel music piped through multiple speakers

DO I need a DAC setup?

not sure what you mean - you already have one in your Onkyo. If high end audio quality is your goal, I'd get an external two channel DAC as an upgrade, personally I guess. If you want DSD I believe you'd have to go the two channel route anyway (not totally positive - maybe there are multi channel DSD external DACs ). Multiple DACs for multichannel are not viable due to clock sync issues.

[mwillems]

Ok.  I have read too much and Now I am not sure what I should be looking at.  I currently have a PC that I run JRiver on with all my audio files on a Synology NAS (DS1512+).  The PC is an Intel DX58SO based custom computer with 12GB RAM, EVGA GTX 660 TI Video Card.
The Video card does not seem to reliably support ASIO with high end 6 channel 24Bit / 96KHZ audio  (Music).  I currently rip my Blu-Ray and DVD-Audio discs to HDD (Multi-Channel FLAC) and am starting to get into DSD now as well.

When you say that your video card does not seem to "reliably support ASIO," do you mean that it has an ASIO driver, but it's flaky, or that it doesn't support ASIO at all?  I have the same video card (a different manufacturer, but the same chipset) and wasn't aware that it supported ASIO, but I guess it's possible that it does and I missed the drivers.  If your concern is that it doesn't support ASIO at all, my first question is "why do you need ASIO"?  Is there something about WASAPI that doesn't work right in your setup?   Both should bypass the windows mixer and be bit-perfect, so I'm just trying to get a handle on why you want/need ASIO and/or a new HDMI output.

[6233638]

The Video card does not seem to reliably support ASIO with high end 6 channel 24Bit / 96KHZ audio

Nvidia's drivers don't support ASIO at all. If you are using an ASIO bridge such as ASIO4All, I suggest that you stop using it.
WASAPI Exclusive Mode works very well with Nvidia's HDMI drivers.

What is the best solution.  I can't seem to find a Sound card that has HDMI and has a proper multi-Channel ASIO driver mentioned as one of it's features.  DO I need a DAC setup?  if so what should I be looking at that will provide both multi-channel and stereo native audio in high resolution as mentioned above.  I do have RCA Analogue Multi-Channel on the receiver if that is the best way.

Use your GTX 660 for this. ASIO is completely unnecessary for this task.
Your Onkyo AVR is acting as the DAC in this setup, there's no need for another DAC.

Also computer is currently running Windows 8.1 and I would like to completely bypass the crappy Windows audio drivers that seem to try to take over everything and change it all to the same thing be it multi-channel 24/96 or stereo of the same!

This only happens when you use a non-exclusive output (WASAPI with Exclusive Mode disabled, or DirectSound)

If there is any "decoding" etc to be done I would like to files to be passed RAW to my receiver and let it do any decoding if necessary.

It is better to decode in Media Center rather than bitstreaming the signal to your AVR. If you bitstream, Media Center is unable to process the files, which is important to maintain sync with video playback.

[jctcom]

This is a hard one to answer without knowing what your expectations are and your budget.  You mention you are starting to get into DSD (your Onkyo dac does not support this), so I take it you mean "audiophile" quality (not using this as pejorative btw)?. You don't want anything but your receiver to decode/render does that mean you have set it up on a DLNA network?

Actually I am pretty sure it does support dSD.  If I play an SACD with DSD from my Oppo BDP-83 there is a "DSD" logo that lights up.  Doesn't that mean it supports DSD?

I suppose it would depend on how much you listen to truly "mastered for multi-channel audio" as opposed to 2 channel music piped through multiple speakers

I have been into DVD-Audio and SACD for some time now and am now seeing a lot of "Blu-Ray" Audio discs of which I have a few.  I use "DVD-Audio Extractor" to rip all of my DVD-As and Blu-Ray Audio discs to multi-Channel Flac files (If the original is multi-channel, Otherwise Stereo in 24Bit / 96KHz or 192KHz depending on the source).  So I believe this is "Mastered For Multi-Channel Audio".

not sure what you mean - you already have one in your Onkyo. If high end audio quality is your goal, I'd get an external two channel DAC as an upgrade, personally I guess. If you want DSD I believe you'd have to go the two channel route anyway (not totally positive - maybe there are multi channel DSD external DACs ). Multiple DACs for multichannel are not viable due to clock sync issues.

I thought this might be the case but wasn't sure if my Onkyo Receiver was truly what people are talking about when discussing "DAC".  They allways seem like so much more when they are being discussed lol.

[jctcom]

When you say that your video card does not seem to "reliably support ASIO," do you mean that it has an ASIO driver, but it's flaky, or that it doesn't support ASIO at all?  I have the same video card (a different manufacturer, but the same chipset) and wasn't aware that it supported ASIO, but I guess it's possible that it does and I missed the drivers.  If your concern is that it doesn't support ASIO at all, my first question is "why do you need ASIO"?  Is there something about WASAPI that doesn't work right in your setup?   Both should bypass the windows mixer and be bit-perfect, so I'm just trying to get a handle on why you want/need ASIO and/or a new HDMI output.

From my reading I thought I understood that ASIO was more stable than WASAPI but I could have misunderstood that.  I will go back to WASAPI in that case using the HDMI out from my video card and see how that goes.  I had been using ASIO4All which seemed to be not too bad for the most part.

One of the problems I was having with the WASAPI drivers is when playing a 24bit / 96KHz 5.1 audio file.  Quite often I will get a message indicating that it wants to downgrade it to 2 channel or 48KHz or some such and will not play it in it's full resolution surround claiming that something in the system does not support it.

Carl.

[jctcom]

Nvidia's drivers don't support ASIO at all. If you are using an ASIO bridge such as ASIO4All, I suggest that you stop using it.
WASAPI Exclusive Mode works very well with Nvidia's HDMI drivers.

I was using ASIO4ALL driver due to the previously mentioned issue with JRiver wanting to downgrade my 24Bit / 96KHz / 5.1 files to 2 channel or a lower resolution.

Use your GTX 660 for this. ASIO is completely unnecessary for this task.
Your Onkyo AVR is acting as the DAC in this setup, there's no need for another DAC.
This only happens when you use a non-exclusive output (WASAPI with Exclusive Mode disabled, or DirectSound)
It is better to decode in Media Center rather than bitstreaming the signal to your AVR. If you bitstream, Media Center is unable to process the files, which is important to maintain sync with video playback.

I will play around with the WASAPI drivers some more.  I also have a Claro Halo XT with the ability to output via multi-Channel RCA (Up to 7.1 channels I think).  What would be better that or the HDMI built into my video card?

Thanks all for your help on this.  I am sure you have seen similar questions a hundred times before.

Carl.

[6233638]

I was using ASIO4ALL driver due to the previously mentioned issue with JRiver wanting to downgrade my 24Bit / 96KHz / 5.1 files to 2 channel or a lower resolution.

Check your Output Format settings. There should be no problem with Media Center setting the correct number of channels/sample rate with an Nvidia card and WASAPI Exclusive output.

What would be better that or the HDMI built into my video card?

If it's going through an AVR, I'd much rather send it a digital signal than an analog one.

[JimH]

From my reading I thought I understood that ASIO was more stable than WASAPI but I could have misunderstood that.

That's not the case.  ASIO is recommended if it is available from your device manufacturer, and if it works well.

ASIO4all isn't recommended.  If it works, Kernel Streaming will also work.

[jctcom]

Ok.  Uninstalled ASIO4All, Updated my NVidea drivers to the most current and set to WASAPI with Exclusive access.

Other settings:
Disable Event Style...   - Unchecked
Maximize Device Volume....   Checked
Play A little silence.....  Checked

Output format options:

Output encoding:   none
Sample Rate:   All set to "No Change"
Channels:   Source number of Channels.

Volume Levelling:   Checked
Adaptive Volume:  Checked

Everything else in that section is Unchecked.

I have only played a few songs but I have had one issue so far.  A track that is 2 channel / 88200 Hz would not play unless I let it downsample it to 48000 Hz?

I have seen this one often.  it seems that something in my system is not compatible with straight (Or somewhat straight I guess) SACD 88200 Hz rips?

Thanks again for all your help.  I will continue testing with the WASAPI and report back.

Carl.

[6233638]

Volume Levelling:   Checked
Adaptive Volume:  Checked

Unless you have a specific reason to use both, it's normally best to use Volume Leveling its own rather than combining it with Adaptive Volume.
Adaptive Volume counteracts the main goal of Volume Leveling (never having to touch the volume control) by making the current playlist as loud as possible.

I have only played a few songs but I have had one issue so far.  A track that is 2 channel / 88200 Hz would not play unless I let it downsample it to 48000 Hz?

I'm not sure that Nvidia supports 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz over HDMI. (definitely does not support 176kHz)

Control Panel → Sound → Device Properties → Supported Formats will list the formats supported by your device.
 
You can specify what 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz are resampled to in the Output Format DSP Settings in side Media Center.
You might find it best to upsample to 96kHz or 192kHz depending on your hardware.

[jctcom]

Unless you have a specific reason to use both, it's normally best to use Volume Leveling its own rather than combining it with Adaptive Volume.
Adaptive Volume counteracts the main goal of Volume Leveling (never having to touch the volume control) by making the current playlist as loud as possible.

I did do some reading on this when the new version 19 was release (Or the recent update that added the Adaptive Volume) and I understood it was best to have both on in order to 1. Maintain the same volume level throughout the current playlist and 2. Maintain the volume level at its highest relative to the rest of the songs in the playlist.  Instead of having the whole playlist brought down to the lowest level track.

I'm not sure that Nvidia supports 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz over HDMI. (definitely does not support 176kHz)

Control Panel → Sound → Device Properties → Supported Formats will list the formats supported by your device.
 
You can specify what 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz are resampled to in the Output Format DSP Settings in side Media Center.
You might find it best to upsample to 96kHz or 192kHz depending on your hardware.

My guess is that since those frequencies are primarily limited to SACD and since there are no SACD capable readers / writers available for computers the manufacturer's decided the demand would be too low to bother supporting them.  I will set it to upsample them to 96KHz and 192KHz and test it that way.

I remembered why I wanted the analogue ouputs on the Claro Halo though.  My Onkyo  (Out for repairs for the past month and a bit) has Multi-Room functionality which I use a lot.  But for some reason the Mult-Room Outputs only work with the Analog RCA inputs and not with the Digital inputs.

Carl

[6233638]

Instead of having the whole playlist brought down to the lowest level track.

That's not quite how Volume Leveling works - it brings all tracks to a target level of -23 LUFS (dB), so some tracks will be increased in volume.
 
But yes - if you find that it is too quiet for your hardware, you should enable Adaptive Volume as well.

[Arindelle]

Actually I am pretty sure it does support dSD.  If I play an SACD with DSD from my Oppo BDP-83 there is a "DSD" logo that lights up.  Doesn't that mean it supports DSD?

I didn't know you had an Oppo 103. Yes the Oppo does support DSD if you put a disc in.  It does not support DSD via JRiver and USB. "This firmware allows for DSD over direct USB storage. The Asynchronous DAC does not support DSD, but according to OPPO yesterday "we are still investigating this compatibility"." "While my Oppo does not seem to recognize DSD files via DLNA (oShare, JRiver, WMP), it does recognize and play them via SMB, as I discovered last night."Very interesting discussion on this here. =>  OPPO 103/105 Does Stereo/Multichannel DSD. However, the Onyko audio Dac uses 2 burr brown PCM chips only. That doesn't mean it won't play the files back just not in DSD. BTW the onyko does support 88.2k?!

I have been into DVD-Audio and SACD for some time now and am now seeing a lot of "Blu-Ray" Audio discs of which I have a few.  I use "DVD-Audio Extractor" to rip all of my DVD-As and Blu-Ray Audio discs to multi-Channel Flac files (If the original is multi-channel, Otherwise Stereo in 24Bit / 96KHz or 192KHz depending on the source).  So I believe this is "Mastered For Multi-Channel Audio".

That makes sense I guess ... I was sort of getting at whether or not it would be worth investing in an 800$ multi-channel card or not. It will work on your Onyko as is if you are happy with the sound.

Btw, are the flac "DSD" files showing a 1 bite bit-depth? I thought they had to have file extensions of *.dsf or *.dff? Could someone else add their two cents here ... I have never ripped audio from these supports and all of my DSD files are not flacs that I have gotten from the web. Or maybe I'm confusing the multichannel and the DSD files?

Seems to me you should set up a couple of zones to include both the Oppo (as DLNA renderer) and The Onkyo for everything else running jriver as media server for the rest.  (Maybe a third zone for the Onkyo over DLNA for remote if required use depending on the setup in other rooms??)  What do you other guys think?

[jctcom]

 I didn't know you had an Oppo 103. Yes the Oppo does support DSD if you put a disc in.  It does not support DSD via JRiver and USB. "This firmware allows for DSD over direct USB storage.

I don't have an Oppo "103"  I have an Oppo BDP-83  (Very limited network functionality)

 However, the Onyko audio Dac uses 2 burr brown PCM chips only. That doesn't mean it won't play the files back just not in DSD. BTW the onyko does support 88.2k?!

My Onkyo most certainly does support DSD (At least from my Oppo SACD Player with an SACD Disc)  Here is an excerpt from the specifications in the manual:

Input IN 1, IN 2, IN 3, IN 4, IN 5, IN 6,
AUX INPUT
Output OUT MAIN, OUT SUB
Video Resolution 1080p
Audio Format Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master Audio,
DVD-Audio, DSD
Supported 3D, Audio Return Channel, Deep Color,
x.v.Color, LipSync, CEC

There is a light on the Onkyo that indicates when it is receiving a DSD signal.

Here is an excerpt from another part of the manual:

Supported Audio Formats
• 2-channel linear PCM (32–192 kHz, 16/20/24 bit)
• Multichannel linear PCM (up to 7.1 ch, 32–192 kHz, 16/20/24 bit)
• Bitstream (DSD, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, DTS-HD
Master Audio)
Your Blu-ray Disc/DVD player must also support HDMI output of the above audio formats.

I can't find anything in the manual that specifically lists the sample rates including the 88.2Khz and 176.4KHz.  But it does support DSD which I don't think it would if it couldn't support the DSD Sample rates?

That makes sense I guess ... I was sort of getting at whether or not it would be worth investing in an 800$ multi-channel card or not. It will work on your Onyko as is if you are happy with the sound.

Btw, are the flac "DSD" files showing a 1 bite bit-depth? I thought they had to have file extensions of *.dsf or *.dff? Could someone else add their two cents here ... I have never ripped audio from these supports and all of my DSD files are not flacs that I have gotten from the web. Or maybe I'm confusing the multichannel and the DSD files?

I have some DSF files.  They show up in Media Center as 1 bit / 2822400 Hz.   But I don't think the NVidia Video / Sound Card supports them So I have Media Center converting them to 192Khz.   This may change when my Onkyo comes back from being repaired.   It has been away for a bit more than a Month and I have not fully set up the loaner which is a basic Yamaha Receiver without the Analog inputs I had on my Onkyo (Which allowed me to use my Claro Omega HT sound card properly).

Seems to me you should set up a couple of zones to include both the Oppo (as DLNA renderer) and The Onkyo for everything else running jriver as media server for the rest.  (Maybe a third zone for the Onkyo over DLNA for remote if required use depending on the setup in other rooms??)  What do you other guys think?

I am not sure if the  BDP-83 has the functionality of being able to be a renderer.  I may play around with this once I get my Onkyo back from service.

[6233638]

I can't find anything in the manual that specifically lists the sample rates including the 88.2Khz and 176.4KHz.

As mentioned in my previous post, Control Panel → Sound → Device Properties → Supported Formats will list all the formats supported by your current GPU+AVR combination. (if the AVR supports 88.2 but the GPU doesn't, it won't be listed etc.)
 
Nvidia cards definitely do not support 176.4 kHz over HDMI, even if your AVR does, and likely don't support 88.2 kHz either.

I have some DSF files.  They show up in Media Center as 1 bit / 2822400 Hz.   But I don't think the NVidia Video / Sound Card supports them So I have Media Center converting them to 192Khz.

The only way to bitstream DSD from a PC right now is to use a USB connection to a supported device.
None of the graphics card vendors support DSD output via HDMI.
 
But I wouldn't worry about it. I'm using a DSD-capable DAC that is connected via USB, and I have Media Center convert to PCM anyway.

[mwillems]

As mentioned in my previous post, Control Panel → Sound → Device Properties → Supported Formats will list all the formats supported by your current GPU+AVR combination. (if the AVR supports 88.2 but the GPU doesn't, it won't be listed etc.)
 
Nvidia cards definitely do not support 176.4 kHz over HDMI, even if your AVR does, and likely don't support 88.2 kHz either.
The only way to bitstream DSD from a PC right now is to use a USB connection to a supported device.
None of the graphics card vendors support DSD output via HDMI.
 
But I wouldn't worry about it. I'm using a DSD-capable DAC that is connected via USB, and I have Media Center convert to PCM anyway.

6233638, the sound device properties may not be helpful depending on what he has it hooked up to (i.e. he doesn't have the Onkyo on hand).  My nvidia HDMI output (in device properties) only lists the supported formats of the thing the video card HDMI is currently connected to.  When I plug it into my television, it only shows 44 KHz and 48Khz, no higher sampling rates.  When I plug it into a receiver, I see higher sampling rates.  I don't know if mine supports 88.2 because I've never plugged it into anything that supported 88.2, but the sound device properties are not a perfect indicator of what sample rates the card itself supports.  

jctcom, you'll know for sure when you get your Onkyo back.

[jctcom]

Hopefully I will get my Onkyo back this week.  (They said 4 - 6 weeks and it is 5 now so should be soon!)  Then I will be able to further test these options.

Carl.

[6233638]

My nvidia HDMI output (in device properties) only lists the supported formats of the thing the video card HDMI is currently connected to.  When I plug it into my television, it only shows 44 KHz and 48Khz, no higher sampling rates.  When I plug it into a receiver, I see higher sampling rates.

Which is what you need to know when setting up Media Center. It doesn't matter if the AVR supports 88.2kHz or not, if you don't have a way of sending it an 88.2kHz signal.

[mwillems]

Which is what you need to know when setting up Media Center. It doesn't matter if the AVR supports 88.2kHz or not, if you don't have a way of sending it an 88.2kHz signal.

Absolutely, if the HDMI output won't output 88.2 it doesn't matter if his receiver supports it. I just meant that he had no way of definitively finding out if the NVIDIA output would support 88.2 output without his Onkyo (or another device that plays 88.2).  Device properties would be no help in answering the NVIDIA output question unless he has a device that he knows supports 88.2 connected.  Does that make sense?

[EDIT: Although, as you note, based on internet traffic it looks unlikely that the NVIDIA does support 88.2, although it looks like some folks may have sort of managed it with a DVI to HDMI adapter with newer cards]