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[MarSies]

This thread is a follow-up of http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86729.0

I have removed Bitdefender and upgraded to MC 19.0.108. I will report what happens during two days that I want to be without ‘protection’. I’ve run the benchmark and system info which are below (Irremoved some data because of the maximum message length).

My system has two SSD’s in RAID0 and I access my music files via an internal Areca storage card with 8*3GB drives in RAID6. Internal memory is 32GB and OS is W8.1-64UK version.

Marsies .....


=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 3.929 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2.393 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 1.040 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 0.651 seconds
Score: 2371

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0.297 seconds
    Flood filling... 0.342 seconds
    Direct copying... 0.500 seconds
    Small renders... 1.066 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 0.806 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 0.452 seconds
Score: 6352

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0.186 seconds
    Populate database... 0.975 seconds
    Save database... 0.239 seconds
    Reload database... 0.041 seconds
    Search database... 0.804 seconds
    Sort database... 0.711 seconds
    Group database... 0.539 seconds
Score: 6151

JRMark (version 19.0.108): 4958



Library
    Total files: 20249
    Audio files: 20248
    Image files: 1
    Video files: 0
    Other files: 0
Processing
    Thumbnails built: 25% (5033 of 20249)
    Audio analyzed: 100% (20248 of 20248)
Background Tools Running
    No tools currently running
Power
    No entries that affect the system power state
Media Center
    Version: 19.0.108.0 Registered
    Install path: C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 19\
    Interface plug-ins: Interface Plugins: TiVo Server (not running)
    JRMark: 4958 (version 19.0.108)
    Memory used: 36.1 MB memory
    Handles used: 343 handles
Advanced System Info
    Memory & CPU
        CPU features: MMX, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1, AVX
        Free Physical Memory: 28.7 GB
        Total Memory: 32.0 GB
    Operating System
        Microsoft Windows 8 64-bit
    1394
        VIA 1394 OHCI Compliant Host Controller (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    Audio inputs and outputs
        Aux (2- ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Line In (2- ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Microphone (2- ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        S/PDIF Pass-through Device (2- ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Speakers (2- ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Stereo Mix (2- ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Wave (2- ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    CDROM
        TSSTcorp CDDVDW SH-224DB (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        TSSTcorp CDDVDW SH-224DB (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    Computer
        ACPI x64-based PC (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    DiskDrive
        Areca ARC-1224-VOL#000 SCSI Disk Device (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Generic- SD/MMC/MS/MSPRO USB Device (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        HP Officejet Pro 85 USB Device (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel Raid 0 Volume (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    Display
        NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760 (driver 9.18.13.3221)
    Dot4Print
        HP Printer (driver 7.0.0.25)
        Officejet Pro 8500 A909g (Dot4PRINT) (driver 7.0.0.25)
    DriverInterface
        Logitech Driver Interface (driver 5.60.66.0)
        Logitech Driver Interface (driver 5.60.66.0)
        Logitech Driver Interface (driver 5.60.66.0)
        Logitech Driver Interface (driver 5.60.66.0)
        Logitech Driver Interface (driver 5.60.66.0)
    hdc
        Standard SATA AHCI Controller (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    HIDClass
        Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 (driver 4.0.0.0)
        HID-compliant consumer control device (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        HID-compliant system controller (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        USB Input Device (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    Image
        Officejet Pro 8500 A909g (driver 6.2.8306.0)
    Keyboard
        Logitech HID-Compliant Keyboard (driver 5.60.66.0)
    MEDIA
        ASUS Xonar Essence STX Audio Device (driver 8.0.8.1813)
        NVIDIA High Definition Audio (driver 1.3.30.1)
        NVIDIA Virtual Audio Device (Wave Extensible) (WDM) (driver 1.2.19.0)
    Monitor
        Dell U3014 (DVI) (driver 1.0.0.0)
    Mouse
        Evoluent VerticalMouse (driver 4.0.0.0)
        HID-compliant Mouse (driver 5.60.66.0)
        Logitech HID-compliant Touch Pad Mouse (driver 5.60.66.0)
    Net
        BlackBerry Virtual Private Network (driver 1.1.0.15)
        Intel(R) Ethernet Connection I217-V (driver 12.6.47.1)
        Intel(R) I210 Gigabit Network Connection (driver 12.6.47.1)
    Ports
        Communications Port (COM1) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        RIM Virtual Serial Port v2 (COM3) (driver 2.3.0.11)
        RIM Virtual Serial Port v2 (COM4) (driver 2.3.0.11)
    Printer
        HP Officejet Pro 8500 A909g Series Class Driver (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    Processor
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    SCSIAdapter
        ARECA (X86-64-STORPORT) SATA RAID Host Adapter (RAID6-ENGINE Inside) (driver 6.20.0.28)
        Intel(R) Desktop/Workstation/Server Express Chipset SATA RAID Controller (driver 12.8.0.1016)
        Microsoft Storage Spaces Controller (driver 6.3.9600.16452)
    Software devices
        Microsoft Device Association Root Enumerator (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Microsoft IPv4 IPv6 Transition Adapter Bus (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    System
        ACPI Fan (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        ACPI Fixed Feature Button (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        ACPI Power Button (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        ACPI Thermal Zone (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        ACPI Thermal Zone (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Areca VIRTUAL SCSI RAID Device (driver 6.20.0.28)
        Composite Bus Enumerator (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Direct memory access controller (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        High Definition Audio Controller (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        High precision event timer (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) 4th Gen Core processor DRAM Controller - 0C00 (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        Intel(R) 8 Series/C220 Series PCI Express Root Port #4 - 8C16 (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        Intel(R) 8 Series/C220 Series PCI Express Root Port #5 - 8C18 (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        Intel(R) 8 Series/C220 Series PCI Express Root Port #7 - 8C1C (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        Intel(R) 8 Series/C220 Series SMBus Controller - 8C22 (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        Intel(R) 82801 PCI Bridge - 244E (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) 82802 Firmware Hub Device (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) Management Engine Interface
        Intel(R) Xeon(R) processor E3-1200 v3/4th Gen Core processor PCI Express x8 Controller - 0C05 (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        Intel(R) Xeon(R) processor E3-1200 v3/4th Gen Core processor PCI Express x16 Controller - 0C01 (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        Intel(R) Z87 LPC Controller - 8C44 (driver 9.4.0.1023)
        IWD Bus Enumerator (driver 4.5.30.0)
        Marvell Unify Configuration (driver 1.2.0.1039)
        Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System (driver 6.3.9600.16423)
        Microsoft Basic Display Driver (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Microsoft Basic Render Driver (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Microsoft System Management BIOS Driver (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Microsoft Virtual Drive Enumerator (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Microsoft Windows Management Interface for ACPI (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Motherboard resources (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        NDIS Virtual Network Adapter Enumerator (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Numeric data processor (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        PCI Express Root Complex (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        PCI standard PCI-to-PCI bridge (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        PCI standard PCI-to-PCI bridge (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Plug and Play Software Device Enumerator (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Programmable interrupt controller (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Remote Desktop Device Redirector Bus (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        System board (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        System CMOS/real time clock (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        System timer (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        UMBus Root Bus Enumerator (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Volume Manager (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
    USB
        Generic SuperSpeed USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic SuperSpeed USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic SuperSpeed USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic SuperSpeed USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
        Generic USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16442)
        Generic USB Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16442)
        HP Officejet Pro 8500 A909g (driver 7.0.0.25)
        Intel(R) 8 Series/C220 Series USB EHCI #1 - 8C26 (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) 8 Series/C220 Series USB EHCI #2 - 8C2D (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        Intel(R) USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller - 0100 (Microsoft) (driver 6.3.9600.16459)
        USB Composite Device (driver 6.3.9600.16442)
        USB Mass Storage Device (driver 6.3.9600.16475)
        USB Mass Storage Device (driver 6.3.9600.16475)
        USB Printing Support (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        USB Root Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        USB Root Hub (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        USB Root Hub (xHCI) (driver 6.3.9600.16405)
    Virtual Input Devices
        Evoluent Virtual Keyboard Device (driver 4.0.0.0)
        Evoluent Virtual Mouse Device (driver 4.0.0.0)
    WPD
        F:\ (driver 6.3.9600.16384)
        G:\ (driver 6.3.9600.16384)

[InflatableMouse]

My system has two SSD’s in RAID0 and I access my music files via an internal Areca storage card with 8*3GB drives in RAID6. Internal memory is 32GB and OS is W8.1-64UK version.

Do any of those drives fall asleep? That is a common problem with hangs. Especially if those 8 drives stagger their spinning up it can take some time for all of them to become ready. Some applications with short timeouts can crash too.

[glynor]

That stuff all looks pretty good.  I don't know about the Areca drivers, but I imagine you've got recent ones there.

Hopefully it was Bitdefender.  Otherwise, I might guess (if not Inflatable's suggestion, though that would only cause a hang until the drives did spin up, worst case, and then would be fine) something wrong with a disk:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Disks

But, I'm reaching.

[MarSies]

Thanks 

The system and Office documents are on C:\. All my pictures, movies and musis are on the Areca RAID6 system. The drives can indeed fall asleep after a period of 20 minutes. Only that can not be the case here.

I experience several sorts of instability with MC. With conversion to different formats, or writing to a USB device. But mostly  when I play music for a while. MC stops or does not respond anymore when I'm working on the PC. So the spin up of the drives can't be the problem.

And I have the latest drivers. I even called mister Areca to talk to them about some possible issues.

The system is stil running, have not done much with it today. If it was caused by Bitdefender it was also caused by GData. Then I wonder with which virusscanner MC does not have any problems?

Marsies .....

[MarSies]

Now writing music from ape format to ALAC to my iPod. I configured 8 conversions at the same time. This really slows down my PC. CPU usage is 100%. Typing this message goes slow indeed.

But it's almost impossible to do something in MC. The blue cirkel is constantly on the screen. And moving the MC screen seems like the hardest thing ever! But it does not hang yet!

I'd like to convert music to my Playbook but it doesn't recognize it 


Marsies .....

[InflatableMouse]

Try with 4. An i7 is a quad-core, hyperthreading gives it 8 but physically it's only 4.

[glynor]

Yeah.  8 simultaneous conversions will bury that CPU.

Physical cores matter here.  HyperThreading is only useful when the physical cores aren't fully utilized.  MC pegs them.  Plus, it is possible with 8 simultaneous transcodes that you are burying your disk throughput too.

If you want it to remain responsive during transcodes, you have to limit it to four or lower.

Remember, with disk performance, when you're doing more than one thing at a time like that, you're hitting random access limits (IOPS), not sustained throughput limits. Even with a nice RAID like that one, there are limits.

I don't know for sure but trying to push 8 through simultaneously (without 8-12 physical cores) is probably a pipe dream.

[MarSies]

I just returned to my PC and MC does not hang (yet)!! It is a good day or MC does not have to fight anymore with Bitdefender. Some days it actually works good, and some days are really bad!

MC always use to have a maximum of 4 conversions. I was glad that it was raised as my PC's are always 'hardcore'. I have had days were I could use 8 conversions with not too much trouble. On average 6 works pretty good. At this moment I do 6 conversions from ape to ALAC to my iPod and 6 conversions from ape to flac on my Playbook at the same time.

Just found out that the conversions to my iPod were just file transfers. I stopped that process and MC does not respond anymore. My PC keeps on working pretty fast with a 100% CPU utilization of the Playbook conversions.

MC is still there, plays music, converts but it does not reponds to GUI commands. This normally happens when it is about to crash!


My Playbook is accesible with a drive letter!

[glynor]

MC always use to have a maximum of 4 conversions. I was glad that it was raised as my PC's are always 'hardcore'.

Being able to do it, and it being a good idea to do it are two different things.

With a 4 core machine, it is likely that in total conversion time for a given set of files, running 8 simultaneous conversions will take LONGER THAN doing 4 simultaneous conversions.  At the very least, it'll almost certainly be a wash.  The idea of doing simultaneous conversions is to use additional cores.  You have four cores, so...  If you expect to be able to do 8 simultaneous conversions on that PC (which is a nice machine, but isn't a 12-core Xeon) while having other functions on the PC remain responsive, then, well...

I'd love to have some of what you're smoking.  

Good to hear that the general performance problems haven't returned (yet).  Keep an eye on it, and if they don't in a day or two, take a look at this section for guidance on how to exclude MC in your anti-virus application of choice.  I will add, that a number of other users have had trouble with Bitdefender in particular, so that's part of why we strongly urged you to take this step.

[glynor]

Forgot to include the link:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Solutions#Tame_Your_Anti-Virus

I don't have instructions for Bitdefender, because I don't (and have never) used it.  But, you can probably figure out the idea by looking through the two examples that are there.

[glynor]

I'll mention, however, that...  Well, I'll let these results speak for themselves.  Just browse the results on their own forums:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitdefender+slowing+down+computer

Repeated, and ongoing.

This is extremely common with big, bloated security suites.  Essentially, the JOB of an anti-virus application is to interfere with everything other software on your computer does.  All disk accesses are slowed, because the AV has to check the file being accessed first, and they interfere with all running processes to ensure they aren't doing "bad things".  Most big AV suites have tons of "special cases" built-in to allow them to function alongside common software (like Office, for example) without degrading performance.  But JRiver is too small to generally get special treatment from AV vendors.  They might fix it if you report it, of course, so it is worth mentioning to them.

But to be clear: applications running slower and file access having high latency isn't a side effect.  It is the goal of the security application.  Make it slower, but make it (in theory, at least) safer.

I really don't like these kinds of heavy security suites.  They often cause more trouble than they're worth.  Good computing practices + decent hardware firewall + applying updates and limiting plugins (particularly Java and Flash) + a modest anti-virus application (and the built-in Firewall in Windows, maybe) are going to be far more effective, and much less hassle, than most of these "all in one" security suites.

And, I'd add...

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

[MarSies]

Hey Glynor, you made me laugh, hahaha 
To be honest I'm boring, I don't smoke or drink. Just sports and healthy stuff.

Anyway, my machine is still up and running, this is unbelievable. I will leave it running/playing for tonight and see what happens.

My hardware manufacturer adviced me someting else then GData. Eventually I spotted Bitdefender scoring high in tests, that is why I took it. And there was NO DIFFERENCE between GData and Bitdefender in MC behaviour.

And to be honest, without Bitdefender my PC is indeed faster. Well that is logic since there is no guard anymore checking every transaction. Your idea of security looks nice. I used to be a network technician a long time ago before Cisco was big. If I want to do your way of security I have to stay informed with everyting and updates are not always an improvement, no way. I'd rather pay for software doing that for me.

If my PC keeps on running until tomorrow I will reinstall Bitdefender and look what happens. Then I'll try to find a way to exclude MC from being hassled by Bitdefender. Hope that MC never gets a virus inside 

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it !!!!!

[InflatableMouse]

My hardware manufacturer adviced me someting else then GData. Eventually I spotted Bitdefender scoring high in tests, that is why I took it. And there was NO DIFFERENCE between GData and Bitdefender in MC behaviour.

MSE really is worth looking at. It performs very good and I think much of the negativity surrounding it comes from people who have not given it a second chance thinking its still the 'old' Defender application -  its not and if you ask me, its a security application that gives the least problems overall, the least performance impact and the least annoyances while still doing a very good job.

[MarSies]

When I woke up I found my PC not playing music anymore. Unfortunately the error that I normally receive was there again. Only thing I can do is close the program. My PC functions normal, no restart needed and the devices are visible through my file manager.

I've attached the log file and error message. What is my next step?


As soon as this problem is tackled I will reconsider my virus security options.

[glynor]

Bummer.

I think someone from JRiver is going to have to look at the logs and see if they show anything.  I didn't see anything clear in my brief look.

[MarSies]

I must say that I was really disappointed when I found MC hanging. Thought that the solution was there.

My PC has been playing today constantly for several hours and normally it would have stopped playing already. The same crash message would have been there. So I think there's a difference, but maybe safe to test for a few more days.


I will wait for your message with a next step. Today I can't do any more tests since I'm leaving. From tomorrowmorning I will be ready to test. I will not reinstall Bitdefender (yet).

[InflatableMouse]

But did I understand you installed GData instead of Bitdefender?

If that's so, have you tried completely without an AV or security suite?

[glynor]

But did I understand you installed GData instead of Bitdefender?

If that's so, have you tried completely without an AV or security suite?

Nah.  He used to have GData on the system, and replaced that with BitDefender.  He's been testing it now completely AV free as we recommended.

MarSies, can you do me a favor and run the system through two things:

1. Do a CHKDSK on your system drive and your media volume: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Disks#Filesystem_Corruption
2. Run SFC /scannow on the system: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Disks#OS_Corruption

Let us know if either tool reports that it found errors (and hopefully repaired them) or not.  Thanks.

[MarSies]

Glynor,
I had problems posting my reply, after clearing some of the browser cache it finally works.

The CHKDSK command does not report anything. I did a volume consistency check om the RAID6 and full diagnostic scans with the Intel toolbox on my RAID0 members. No errors were found.

My Intel SSD 520 series 180GB have the latest firmware 400i. I found a newer version of Areca drivers. I have 1.51 and there is now version 1.52. I have installed this a few minutes ago. But personally I don't think that will solve anything.
I don't know the SFC command but it gave me some ‘errors’ which it couldn't repair. Log file is split in two and attached. In the log file it mentions repairs, I wonder if something is really 'broke'.

Reinstalled Bitdefender yesterday and scanned my system. Luckily no glitches found. I contacted support and had two support specialists who helped me. They both gave me different configuration changes for Bitdefender. A firewall rule for internet access and a slightly different way of scanning.  And of course an exclusion of MC19.
Since the amount of problems with MC19 were much less then before I think that part of the problems may be caused by Bitdefender. Like I already reported there were still issues. Anything from the JRiver log files?
I also send in the MC19.exe file to Bitdefender which they are now examining. When I get their report I will update this post.

I am confident that Bitdefender has something to do with my MC not working properly. As when I started typing this post 30 minutes ago my MC19 was crashed. That means that the configuration changes of Bitdefender did not solve anything.
I’m also convinced that it is not only Bitdefender. I use MC for many years now and have seen the program evolve into a real mature program. But I recognize several glitches and shortcoming which I hope will someday be solved. These have been there since y started with MC.

Just to be clear, Bitdefender Total Security is now running again. If it should be removed for another test that is fine with me. I hope that there was time to check my log files.


MarSies …..

[MarSies]

Glynor, I made a mistake with this post. Could you put it behind the original post http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=86861.0

Thank You ..

[MrC]

Topics merged.

[glynor]

Topics merged.

Thanks.

I'll try to respond later.  Still busy...

[MarSies]

Okay, glad you didn't forget about me

The configuration changes of Bitdefender did not help, MC keeps crashing. But many times more then without Bitdefender.

Conclusion the new Bitdefender settings and the firmware upgrade of my Areca RAID6 card do not help!