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[randycw]

 ?  I don't even know where to start...

I started using JRiver back in 2006/07 (MC12 I believe).  At the time I was using it in conjunction with a Russound CAV6 system, and a small app made by Zoner (I think that's the name he went by on this forum) that allowed the Russound keypads to talk to JRiver's MC via serial port.  This setup has been satisfactory to me, but not my kids.  The Russound keypad don't easily permit finding the audio track they want to listen to.  And after 7ish years, the computer is on it's last legs as well.  Also Zoner hasn't updated the little app in nearly 3 years, and it is now crashing about 1 a week.

The computer has been running 24/7 for 7 years.  I'd like to update it, but am a little at a loss.  I used an M-Audio Delta 410 to output 4 "sources" (8 channels) to the Russound CAV, which worked fine since the Russound could then manage those source to 8 zones.  Also an update to the hardware will likely necessitate getting rid of the Russound as I have come up empty finding a motherboard with a serial port on it.

So here is where I am at the moment:  
1.  remove the Russound system and keypads.
2.  Replace keypads on the walls with Android tablets mounted in their place.  Saw a niffty thread yesterday on how to manage this.
3.  New computer with MC19 on it.  Currently running MC15.

Here are my questions:
1.  I want 8 discrete zones:  Master bedroom, living room, backyard, garage, 2 other bedrooms.
     - I have 2 SpeakerCraft 12 channel amplifiers to power the speakers in each zone.
     - These 2 amps take RCA inputs (analog), and are music sensing for turning on.
   Therefore I think the computer needs to have at least 16 channels of analog output.  Is this correct, and how do I accomplish this?
2.  I have a Intel Gulftown processor (920) with Gigabyte MB, 12GB RAM, and AMD Radeon 6670 video card laying around.
    -  I believe this should be sufficient for audio as well as video streaming to these 8 zones.  I'd guess the audio streaming could happen with all 8 at once, but video maybe to only 1 or 2.  Is this correct?
    -  Can MC19 stream video to the Android tablets via Gizmo?  If so, anything special I need to know?
3.  The Russound had a dual radio tuner as well.  I like listening to the Wyoming Cowboy football and basketball games and my wife listens to K-Love and Pilgrim Radio a bunch.
   - I MC15 I haven't figured out how to get any of these local stations to work.  They all want to stream from their own page/player.
   - Is MC19 more capable on the radio streaming front?  If I can get my wife's stuff going, then I'd be nearly home free!
       - If it is, will it be easily done via the tablets I play to control things with, or must it be done via computer?
4.  Tablets as a controller, video player.
   - Is there any reason to consider Android, iPad, or Windows Surface over the other?

Sorry for the long post, and thank you in advance for the help.  I have been searching and reading the forum for nearly 10 hours (between yesterday and today) and I find myself more lost and full of questions than when I started contemplating this project.

[JimH]

Request -- please use JRiver, not J River.  It works better with searches.  We made the switch a couple of years ago.

Thanks.

[Scolex]

Also an update to the hardware will likely necessitate getting rid of the Russound as I have come up empty finding a motherboard with a serial port on it.

You can use a USB to serial port adapter.

[randycw]

Request -- please use JRiver, not J River.  It works better with searches.  We made the switch a couple of years ago.

Thanks.

Fixed.  Sorry about that.

[randycw]

You can use a USB to serial port adapter.

I have considered doing this, but from the AVS Forums I have gathered that the USB to Serial with Zoner's app is quite flaky.  So I have taken this option off the table.

Also, like I stated earlier, the Russound keypads aren't all that useful any longer -- they aren't up to the task of finding a track out of hundreds or thousands.  And Zoner has ceased support of the app years ago, and it too is starting to show it's age.  It's just time for me to make some changes.

My wife is voting for a off-the-shelf solution -- Nuvo's Essentia and MusicPort with their OLED and Color touchscreen controlers.  Looks tempting, and the local dealer let me try their 3100 player.  Very slick indeed.  BUT oh man is it hard on the wallet.

Thus I'd like to see if JRiver, computer, 2 amps, and a few tablets would compete well with the Nuvo product.  Plus I'd perhaps get video streaming to the tablets this way.  Not something the Nuvo can do!

[JimH]

Can you restate the problem you have?  It may be buried in the details above.

By radio, do you mean Internet radio?  Or stations you can tune from a TV tuner.  Neither have changed much.  The former works well if you can find the URL.  It can then be saved in a playlist and used from Theater View or Gizmo.  The latter isn't supported, but some users have had success.

[JimH]

I'm not sure, but I think a lot of motherboards still have the pins for serial out, just not the connectors.  If so, you could add the connector.

[randycw]

Can you restate the problem you have?  It may be buried in the details above.

I think maybe it did get buried, as it seems the focus has been on the serial port...  I am resolved to abandon the Russound system anyway, so the serial port is really not my issue.  My issue without the Russound in the mix is how to accomplish everything with JRiver's MC19, a computer, and a few multi-channel amplifiers.

Here are my questions:
1.  I want 8 discrete zones:  Master bedroom, master bath, living room, backyard, garage, 3 other bedrooms.
     - I have 2 SpeakerCraft 12 channel amplifiers to power the speakers in each zone.
     - These 2 amps take RCA inputs (analog), and are music sensing for turning on.
   Therefore I think JRiver and the computer need to have at least 16 channels (L+R to the amplifiers) of analog output.  Is this correct, and how do I accomplish this?

2.  Using tablets in the zones as a controller and video player.
   - Is there any reason to consider Android, iPad, or Windows Surface over the other?
   - Can MC19 stream video to all of them?  If so, anything special I need to know?
       - From reading these forums I think Gizmo will stream to some but not all Android tablets, and it seems it is a bit random.
         If Android, which ones work?
       - Windows Surface running Windows 8, seems like it might be a good choice as I think I can run a version of MC19 here that will control the main MC19 (acting as server).  Is this conclusion right?
       - I don't know much about iPad, but will learn if needed.  Thus far in my life I have successfully avoided all things Apple.


I have kind of solved the radio problem.  I found a couple of internet streams that are similar to the local radio stations.  I found a program called Tune-In that streams the local stations I am interested in, but I haven't figured out how to get it to work with MC19...

[JimH]

The wiki topic on zones would help.

Some multi channel sound cards can be addressed as separate channels.  A 5.1 card has 6 channels, and they start at 0.  You can use multiple cards.

Android is best supported by MC.  iOS has an excellent third party remote solution, called JRemote.

[mwillems]

I think maybe it did get buried, as it seems the focus has been on the serial port...  I am resolved to abandon the Russound system anyway, so the serial port is really not my issue.  My issue without the Russound in the mix is how to accomplish everything with JRiver's MC19, a computer, and a few multi-channel amplifiers.

Here are my questions:
1.  I want 8 discrete zones:  Master bedroom, master bath, living room, backyard, garage, 3 other bedrooms.
     - I have 2 SpeakerCraft 12 channel amplifiers to power the speakers in each zone.
     - These 2 amps take RCA inputs (analog), and are music sensing for turning on.
   Therefore I think JRiver and the computer need to have at least 16 channels (L+R to the amplifiers) of analog output.  Is this correct, and how do I accomplish this?

There are two main ways to get 16 channels of output from the computer, one large audio interfaces with 16 outputs, or multiple smaller DACs (i.e. two eight channel DACs, or eight stereo DACs, etc.).

If you need precision syncing of the channels, there are definitely some 16 channel DACs floating around, and a larger number of eight channel DACs that can be linked together with other eight channel DACs for a time-synced 16 output solution.  Most of these solutions are not cheap, however.

Just off the top of my head, the Lynx Aurora 16 is a 16 channel out DAC.  I personally use a Steinberg UR824 which is 8-channels out and could be easily master/slaved to another Steinberg UR824 to create a total of 16-channels out.  There are many of other 8-channel interfaces that can be chained that way (RME makes one, and so does focusrite).  Check out this thread for more info on some technical problems with and potential solutions to using multiple DACs: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83870.0

*But* (and this is a big but) if you don't need all 16 channels to be exactly synced, you could easily just use separate stereo DACs, one for each zone.  You can get a rough sort of sync using JRiver's zonelink functionality.  That sync isn't good enough to, say, use three DACs for a six channel surround setup in the same room, but plenty good enough to keep playback in two different rooms close enough that it isn't disorienting when you walk between them.  

While the prospect of buying 8 separate DACs sounds like it might be more expensive than buying one 16-channel interface or two eight channel interfaces, that isn't necessarily so.  The market for stereo DACs is extremely thick, with many surprisingly good options in the $50 to $80 dollar range (or even cheaper).  If you find one that works for you in that range, even eight of them would be less than half as expensive as some of the other solutions mentioned above.  

So I'd suggest considering how important time-sync is going to be in your setup when planning your purchases.

[randycw]

*But* (and this is a big but) if you don't need all 16 channels to be exactly synced, you could easily just use separate stereo DACs, one for each zone.  You can get a rough sort of sync using JRiver's zonelink functionality.  That sync isn't good enough to, say, use three DACs for a six channel surround setup in the same room, but plenty good enough to keep playback in two different rooms close enough that it isn't disorienting when you walk between them.  

While the prospect of buying 8 separate DACs sounds like it might be more expensive than buying one 16-channel interface or two eight channel interfaces, that isn't necessarily so.  The market for stereo DACs is extremely thick, with many surprisingly good options in the $50 to $80 dollar range (or even cheaper).  If you find one that works for you in that range, even eight of them would be less than half as expensive as some of the other solutions mentioned above.  

So I'd suggest considering how important time-sync is going to be in your setup when planning your purchases.

Wow!  Thank you very much for the link and this detailed response.  This has helped clear up a great deal for me, especially as it relates to why I'd consider a single 16 channel solution, versus multiple 2-channel.
 
I fit into the "big but" category.  I just need good enough to go from room to room.

I have wondered if I could just put two sound cards into a computer, but suspect it will lead to headaches.  I see from your linked thread that the Lynx AES16 might be useful.
Now you have me thinking about using multiple stereo DACs -- would you have thoughts on which ones?

[mwillems]

Wow!  Thank you very much for the link and this detailed response.  This has helped clear up a great deal for me, especially as it relates to why I'd consider a single 16 channel solution, versus multiple 2-channel.
 
I fit into the "big but" category.  I just need good enough to go from room to room.

I have wondered if I could just put two sound cards into a computer, but suspect it will lead to headaches.  I see from your linked thread that the Lynx AES16 might be useful.
Now you have me thinking about using multiple stereo DACs -- would you have thoughts on which ones?

If sync doesn't matter, you've got a lot of options both internal and external.  Multiple sound cards in the same computer might actually be the cheapest overall solution, but there are tradeoffs.

For internal cards, Asus and Creative both make eight channel analog output cards.  I didn't mention them above because they don't have the ability to sync up with other cards.  I've personally used both an Asus DX and an Asus Essence ST/H6 combo.  Both cards have eight channels of analog output, one is about $80 the other about $250.  

I have personally run two of these cards in the same computer without incident, but your mileage may vary.  I will caution you though that while internal cards are the cheapest solution by far, they are more prone to pickup EMI from inside the computer (ask me how I know), and tend to have slightly flakier drivers than external USB DACs (also ask me how I know).  I still use my ST/H6 in my secondary playback computer, so I obviously like it well enough, but be prepared that some troubleshooting may be necessary.  If you could find a DX locally (i.e. meaning that you could return it if it didn't work in your setup), it might be worth it to try getting one, as you could use two DX's to get 16 channels for $160, and the DX (when adequately isolated) actually has pretty good electrical specs.

Externally, if you want to use multiple USB DACs, you need a computer with enough usb ports (or a usb hub with a high enough bandwidth, a USB 3.0 compliant hub should probably work if your PC has USB 3.0 support).  I've never tried, personally, to use more than four usb DACs at once, so I don't have any experience regarding whether 8 would work or present a problem, but I can think of no theoretical reason that it wouldn't work.  There are lots and lots of 2-channel USB DACs out there, but it's been a few years since I was in the market. Here are a few options (hopefully others will suggest more)

1) You might want to check out this blog: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html .  He stopped posting in 2012, but most of the DACs he reviewed are still on the market, and he provides very detailed measurements about DACs.  The specific DAC review I linked is a $30 Behringer USB interface, but he measured all kinds of budget DACs.  You should be able to find info on DACs with a wide range of prices and performances on his blog, and he has nice comparison charts of various DACs.

2) I have a Fiio E7K which I've been quite happy with over the past few years (I use it to travel with), and I think I paid about $70 for mine.  It's an integrated DAC and headphone amplifier, but it can provide a line level signal, you just need to buy an $8 add on, the L7.  Fiio also makes other DAC options as well, as I recall the e10, has a built in line level output and is a little cheaper than the e7 because it isn't portable (which doesn't matter in your setup).  Here's a link to a review of the e10: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/01/fiio-e10-dac.html

3) After measuring so many DACs, the blog writer above, nwavguy, decided to try and make his own DAC, and designed a two channel USB DAC called the ODAC, which is currently my favorite 2-channel USB DAC.  It has excellent electrical specs, but it's a little pricier (about $100) http://www.jdslabs.com/products/39/odac-objectivedac/

To be clear, the DACs I mentioned would not work with a Lynx AES based solution, because most of them only have a USB digital input.  If you plan to go the Lynx AES route, you need to find DACs that have SPDIF or AES/EBU digital inputs.

[randycw]

I ordered a Behringer UCA202 to try.  What I think I might try is to utilize the M-Audio Delta 410 card that I already have AND add a couple of these 202s to the mix.

If the two play well together, I'll have a very inexpensive solution to this portion of my project.

Thank you very much, mwillems, for the help!

[greyleopard]

I'm trying to get multi zone capability as well but don't need syncronization.  I'm currious how some of these sound card solutions appear in Win 7 sound folders and on JRiver's output selection table?  I tried to add a sound card and the onboard realtek drivers conflicted with c media drivers from the card.  But even after removing the realtek drivers, I see no way to retask the soundcard outputs to make them 3rd and 4th stereo outputs.(This is with front L&R as 1st and headphone retasked as 2nd output.  Does the Asus soundcard have different drivers that allow it?

[mwillems]

I'm trying to get multi zone capability as well but don't need syncronization.  I'm currious how some of these sound card solutions appear in Win 7 sound folders and on JRiver's output selection table?  I tried to add a sound card and the onboard realtek drivers conflicted with c media drivers from the card.  But even after removing the realtek drivers, I see no way to retask the soundcard outputs to make them 3rd and 4th stereo outputs.(This is with front L&R as 1st and headphone retasked as 2nd output.  Does the Asus soundcard have different drivers that allow it?

What you need to do is some clever channel routing in JRiver.  Most 8-channel cards (including the 8-channel Asus cards) present to JRiver as a single 8 channel output (assuming they're set to 7.1 output in the soundcard driver interface).  So, for example, if you wanted to setup four stereo pairs out of such a card, what you'd need to do is configure four zones in JRiver, all set to use the same 8-channel card as the output, and then use JRiver's channel routing functionality to make that work.

But (this part is critical), you should be sure not to use an exclusive output mode.  So you should not use an ASIO output option, but instead set up the zones using either WASAPI (with "exclusive mode" deselected) or direct sound.  I'd suggest starting with direct sound as it's the most likely to work in this kind of odd configuration, and then try non-exclusive WASAPI once you've gotten it working with DS.  

In the first zone, you'd use the normal output settings.  In the second zone, you'd go into the parametric EQ module (under DSP studio) and select the "mix channels" option, and use it to copy the "Left" channel to the "Center" channel, and copy the "Right Channel" to the "Sub" channel.  For the third zone, you'd do the same thing, except you'd copy the left channel to the "surround left" or "SL" channel, and the right channel to the "surround right" or "SR" channel.  For the fourth zone you'd copy left to "RL" and right to "RR."  

That way each of the four zones is outputting to a different pair of outputs, which (provided you're not trying to use an exclusive output mode) should allow all four to play simultaneously without interfering with each other.  I haven't tried it with more than two zones, but I see no reason it shouldn't work with four as well as two.

[greyleopard]

Great advise, thank you so much for the response.  BTW, I've read elsewhere about retasking the outputs in registry.  Has anyone tried it?

[randycw]

I ordered a Behringer UCA202 to try.  What I think I might try is to utilize the M-Audio Delta 410 card that I already have AND add a couple of these 202s to the mix.

If the two play well together, I'll have a very inexpensive solution to this portion of my project.

Thank you very much, mwillems, for the help!

I can report that the M-Audio Delta 410 and the Behringer UCA202 play well together!  Last night I had a total of 16 streams (all audio) running at once and working quite well!  Four of those were the M-Audio, four where the UCA202s, 1 was the motherboard audio, and the remaining 7 were "play on device" types to 4 smartphones and 3 tablets.

Again, thank you mwillems!  You helped me find a satisfactory and inexpensive solution! 

[mwillems]

I can report that the M-Audio Delta 410 and the Behringer UCA202 play well together!  Last night I had a total of 16 streams (all audio) running at once and working quite well!  Four of those were the M-Audio, four where the UCA202s, 1 was the motherboard audio, and the remaining 7 were "play on device" types to 4 smartphones and 3 tablets.

Again, thank you mwillems!  You helped me find a satisfactory and inexpensive solution! 

Aces!  I love it when a plan comes together