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Author Topic: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)  (Read 6421 times)

astromo

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AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« on: March 03, 2014, 02:50:39 am »

Okay .. I've had various instances where MC19 has hung / crashed and that's got me irritated. However if I just put up a random post, then Jim would be sure to say, "check your security software".

So, I've been keeping quiet and got progressively irritated to the point where I decided that I'd apply some of glynor's good advice to see whether MC19 would hiccup on me in Pauline-Pants-Down mode (trust me, the Ozzies will get that one). So:

Step 0
File package relevant to the steps below can be found here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zomo87y7zgz06of/AppCrash_201403Mar03.zip
that includes:
  • Benchmark Report
  • Reporter output
  • JRiver Log
  • MS Win 8.1 Crash Message

The last item starts with:
Quote
Media Center 19 has stopped working

Problem signature:
  Problem Event Name:   APPCRASH
  Application Name:   Media Center 19.exe
  Application Version:   19.0.118.0
...

Step 1
Apply the glynor MC Troubleshooting Guide

I was already on the latest build, so, I dealt with the anti-virus software that I had installed. I removed BitDefender using their removal tool - not just a standard uninstall - and turned off MS Defender (but left the firewall on). glynor's instructions didn't call for dropping the firewall, so I left the MS standard option active.

Step 2
Let MC do it's thing. It's mostly been doing audio playback with a few hours of video playback. I set up a separate unit for TV recording, so that's been pretty well out of the equation.

MC ran for about a full day before the AppCrash occurred.


So, that's the summary. Over to you guys. I'm heading off to re-engage MS Defender and give my HTPC an anti-virus scan for fun.

While I'm on the line here, I've seen a lot of anti- anti-virus comment in relation to reliable MC performance but I haven't picked up on a preferred package or packages that plays nice with MC. Feel free to provide suggestions.

Until the feedback rolls in, have a good one..   8)
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Hendrik

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 02:59:21 am »

The crash is somewhere deep in Microsoft code, related to audio playback, not sure thats going to be of much help.
Did you try updating audio drivers?
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 06:59:22 am »

Hendrik, thanks for the quick response.

Audio playback was working via HDMI.

From what I know, the audio drivers via HDMI are bundled up with the display drivers (can you shed any light on this either way?). See attached for the report from Intel Driver Update Utility. Note that I'm using the CPU in integrated GPU mode and I don't have a dedicated sound card.

I think we can leave the RAID driver for Intel RST to one side. The report shows that the graphics driver is up to date.

The Realtek HD Audio driver that shows up is one provided by the MoBo OEM, so it's off Intel's radar. An oversight on my part, that driver is superseded by a newer driver. I'll update for completeness. I may have worked to the mistaken belief that this driver was not critical. If that's not the case, my apologies.

I'll go back to evaluate mode and see if I get another hiccup. Appreciate the help..   ;)
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 09:44:18 am »

A few responses....  First, this isn't normal (or acceptable).  I'm absolutely NOT seeing things like this on any of my machines.  I might see an oddball crash here and there (but I use the betas), but nothing regularly recurring.

1. Yes, you are correct regarding the Windows Firewall.  This can block MC's Media Network functions depending on what choices you've made, but it won't cause a crash.

2. Removing Bitdefender clearly didn't solve the issue, so this is eliminated as a possible cause.  MSSE/Windows Defender won't cause MC to crash (though performance can suffer if you don't follow my taming guide).

3. The Realtek drivers shouldn't be causing it if they aren't being used, though updating it won't hurt.

4. The Intel GPU drivers absolutely COULD be causing it.  I've had lots of trouble using Intel's automated driver updating tool, by the way, though it seems to have worked for you.  If you want, though, it wouldn't hurt to download and reinstall the latest version for your GPU manually.

5. The Intel RST drivers also could be causing it, particularly if you are using MC with any disk that touches the onboard SATA connections, and if you have your motherboard in RAID mode.  If you're using AHCI mode then I'd be more surprised if that was the case.  I will say, though, I've SEEN crashes (not just in MC) due to flaky Intel RST drivers.  I had one issue where my JVM wouldn't run right, and another where Process Explorer (of all things) kept crashing.  This was quite some time ago (mid-2012 drivers I think), and I'm not running the latest RST drivers even now, but that could be it.  In any case, worth updating unless you have evidence that the new ones are broken.

And, of course, it could just be that you've found a bug.

Since you are running an Intel GPU, are you using ROST or ROHQ?  If you have a heavily tweaked madvr setup to allow ROHQ to run on that board, you might have something broken in there (or just misconfigured, or buggy).
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 10:11:00 am »

A few more things, after looking at your log package.

1. You said you have the latest Intel GPU drivers, but Reporter shows 10.18.10.3412.  The current version is 15.​28.​20.​64.​3347 (for 64-bit Windows).  Are you running with drivers from Windows Update??  In any case, I would certainly make sure you have the latest ones.  Intel's package version doesn't always match the installed version, but I think it should for the HD 4600 GPU.

2. Reporter also shows you have a Logitech webcam.  Did you install the drivers for the Webcam?  Many versions of those drivers are well-known to cause all sorts of problems.  As an example, when I got my C910, and installed the drivers, my computer would bluescreen immediately upon launching Skype (you think they'd test that, at least).  You DO NOT NEED the special Logitech drivers for those webcams to function.  That just adds the fancy effects and stuff which you almost certainly don't use.  It would seem that this isn't directly related to MC, but it is a video input, and MC enumerates these for TV support.

I'd try removing their drivers if you have them, and see if it goes away.  If so, maybe the newest ones will fix it.  But... Logitech has long-proved that they're bad at software, so I'd run without them if you can manage.

3. Why do you have this:
Realtek HDMI Output (Realtek High Definition Audio) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)

Did you install that separately?  If you're using the onboard HDMI out, it would be the Intel out, not a Realtek one.  That makes me very suspicious.  You used to need to download a Realtek driver for some old AMD and Nvidia cards with HDMI, but they're all included in the GPU-vendor provided drivers now.  And, it certainly doesn't apply to the Intel onboard GPU.

If you aren't using the Realtek onboard audio device (if it isn't connected to anything), I'd remove the drivers completely, and disable the device in your motherboard's BIOS.  Just get it out of there.

In particular, though... This item makes me suspicious.  If there is a separate entry in your Uninstall a Program control panel for this, I'd remove it.

4.  Are you using the Twonky media server thing that came with your motherboard?  It installed two drivers, and who knows what the heck that is doing.  If you aren't using it, remove it.  If you are, make sure you have a well-supported, modern install, not just the one that came on your Motherboard's CD.

5.  It is also worth double-checking your Intel Ethernet driver.  There are KNOWN problems with some of the earlier drivers and Windows 8.1, so that could be it if you haven't checked these drivers in a while.  The most recent driver was released 1/13/2014 for your NIC, and is listed as version 18.8.1.  Your Reporter report lists 12.10.30.0 (though these versions don't always match right, it does make me wonder if it is worth checking).

If you are doing anything with the network, particularly accessing files on a NAS, this could be very important.

That's the advice I have so far, assuming you aren't just hitting a bug, and that you've done the disk checking I recommend in my guide.
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Hendrik

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2014, 10:19:15 am »

1. You said you have the latest Intel GPU drivers, but Reporter shows 10.18.10.3412.  The current version is 15.​28.​20.​64.​3347 (for 64-bit Windows).

You mean these?
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&ProdId=3720&DwnldID=23639

(Note that the package version and the actual driver version only match in the last number, not any of those before, ie. 3412 vs. 3347)
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2014, 10:27:00 am »

Yes, exactly those.

I knew there was some weirdness on Intel between the package versions and the installed versions, but I wasn't sure of details.  I don't think the last part (the build number?) always matches though...  In any case, I don't think he has the latest ones.

And that Realtek HDMI driver... What is up with that?
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Hendrik

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2014, 10:35:09 am »

10.18.10.3412 is the latest. The page I linked shows both package and driver version (down in the text somewhere)
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 10:40:26 am »

Ahh, I'd looked for that but didn't find it.  Thanks.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 03:30:24 pm »

glynor, firstly a big thank you for the Trouble Shooting Guide. By getting a clear approach together, it obviously sets everyone up to get into the detail very quickly.

You've given me a lot of stuff to work through. So, I'll go away do the various mods and come back.

But a quick comment on this one:
3. Why do you have this:
Realtek HDMI Output (Realtek High Definition Audio) (driver 6.3.9600.16384)

Did you install that separately?  If you're using the onboard HDMI out, it would be the Intel out, not a Realtek one.  That makes me very suspicious.  You used to need to download a Realtek driver for some old AMD and Nvidia cards with HDMI, but they're all included in the GPU-vendor provided drivers now.  And, it certainly doesn't apply to the Intel onboard GPU.

If you aren't using the Realtek onboard audio device (if it isn't connected to anything), I'd remove the drivers completely, and disable the device in your motherboard's BIOS.  Just get it out of there.

In particular, though... This item makes me suspicious.  If there is a separate entry in your Uninstall a Program control panel for this, I'd remove it.

The board's audio (it has analogue out and an optical SPDIF out) is Realtek with a driver package available from the OEM's support page. I can uninstall it as it's a separate item.

I'll report back but if there is an improvement with all these changes, I'll probably have to leave the PC run for a day to a few or more to see an effect.

Thanks again to you and Hendrik..   ;)
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 03:42:18 pm »

The Realtek HDMI driver is NOT included with the normal Realtek HD Audio package (which is what you'd have with analog/SPDIF outs).

If you look on the Realtek Download page, the HDMI driver is the separate one way down at the bottom labeled ATI HDMI Audio Device, and is only required for very old ATI (pre-AMD-acquisition) video cards.  Essentially the first-gen ones that supported HDMI audio.

If your OEM had this driver on their website, I bet it was for some other "model" and it wasn't adequately explained.

I could be wrong for your specific board... But I have a bunch of motherboards with Realtek onboard audio and Intel integrated HDMI outputs, and they don't show that Realtek driver.  They show the other one you have listed, but not that one.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 07:33:21 pm »

glynor, thanks again for the feedback.

So, checking off the various points in the glynor posts.

Reply #3.3 and Reply #4.3 Realtek Audio
Something doesn't make sense to me with the audio driver comment.

OK - the audio driver packages that were on the board I got from here:
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/H87IPLUS/#support

From the advice you posted I uninstalled that package and went into the BIOS and disabled the MoBo's audio.

Have a look at a Reporter output that I just ran now and you'll see that Realtek is out of the picture.

You'll also see in the Advanced System Info that a lot of entries have this text at the end of the line:
     
Quote
(driver 6.3.9600.16384)
I can see it for not just audio but drives, the computer itself, a number of HID and USB devices, so it's not restricted to audio. So, what does that mean?    ?

Reply #3.5 RAID
Plus I updated the RST/RAID drivers so the Intel Util Updater gives me no alerts there.

Reply #3.4 and Reply #4.1 Intel GPU Driver
Latest drivers confirmed as per the commentary between glynor and Hendrik.

Reply #4.2 Logitech Webcam
I've unistalled the Logitech webcam driver, as you suggested.

Reply #4.4 Twonky
The Twonky server is associated with a NAS that has it bundled along with the firmware. The NAS is set up in simple JBOD for data storage. I don't stream media from it via Twonky. I can't uninstall Twonky separately and the firmware can't be rolled back according to the OEM's advice. I can always disconnect it from the network. I did go into the Twonky settings and disabled integration. The Windows Device Manager doesn't show a Twonky device, so, if there's a driver still loaded (somehow?), then how do I find it and then how do I remove it?

Reply #4.5 LAN Driver
The ethernet driver is up to date. From the Intel Update Utility:
Quote
Product Detected    Intel(R) I217 based Network Controller(OEM)
Current Driver Installed    12.10.30.0
Your driver is current.
Double checking all the hardware in Device Manager and using the net search function gives me a green light as well. I am streaming video from shared network locations as mapped drives for convenience. Audio, MC and the MC Library are setup locally on the PC.

Reply #3.x RO Format
I'm running video in ROST. I tried out ROHQ and it didn't make enough of difference for me, so I decided to revert to ROST to give the CPU an easier time of it all. Thought that would help stability if it runs lightly loaded.

Reply #4.x Disk Check
I haven't had cause to suspect the drives are an issue. I've recently chkdsk and resolved some errors on the primary HDD in the media partition and everything came through with a green light. I'm in the process of doing a backup before it's weekly schedule and will then run through the checks in your guide.


I think that covers all the points that you noted. The backup / disk check will take some time so, standby. Cheers..
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 10:17:16 pm »

Well, hrm....

I didn't make this clear, but I wouldn't have done all of that at once.  I suppose if you don't really care about the cause and just want it fixed, that's a way to go, but it would be better to do it methodically and see where the problem does or does not lie.

That's why we suggest to uninstall the security suite.  Because if it is removed and the issue persists, then there's no chance it is the cause, and then you can put it back on if you want to (though I'd generally argue that Windows Defender, or a similar non-aggressive suite, and some basic good security practices will make you just as safe with less aggravation).

Not that the driver updates you did were bad, but most of the rest of my suggestions were meant as... Try this, then if that doesn't work, this, and so on and so forth.  On the other hand, if you don't use the Realtek audio device, then there's no reason to have it enabled, so you might as well not enable it.  And, I really don't like the Logitech drivers for those webcams, so if you don't need any of those features (and for Skype, I doubt you really want to make your image sepia-toned), so that's not so bad.

Let us know if you come up with anything.  It would have been interesting to know the precise cause, but hopefully one of those things solves it.

Reply #3.3 and Reply #4.3 Realtek Audio
Something doesn't make sense to me with the audio driver comment.

OK - the audio driver packages that were on the board I got from here:
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/H87IPLUS/#support

From the advice you posted I uninstalled that package and went into the BIOS and disabled the MoBo's audio.

Have a look at a Reporter output that I just ran now and you'll see that Realtek is out of the picture.

That should probably be just the regular Realtek HD Audio driver they're distributing there, so I don't know where the HDMI driver came from.  On my board (which is an ASUS P8Z77-V Deluxe and has Realtek onboard audio and an Intel-powered HDMI port), I just show this in Reporter:
Realtek High Definition Audio (driver 6.0.1.7023)

I'm not on the absolute latest driver, but I am using the ones from Realtek and not ASUS, which were behind by a large margin last I looked.  In any case, I don't see anything about the HDMI, and Intel makes that, not Realtek, so I don't know why it would be there.

I think this is most likely to be the cause, if it is hardware related.  You probably don't need to keep the onboard audio disabled, if you don't want to (I use it on that ASUS board), but removing the drivers entirely seems like a good step in this case.  Try it for a while.  If the issue persists, then you know it wasn't that.  If it goes away, then I bet it was.  You can re-enable it in your BIOS if you want.  Just use the drivers from Realtek instead next time.

Reply #4.5 LAN Driver
The ethernet driver is up to date. From the Intel Update Utility:Double checking all the hardware in Device Manager and using the net search function gives me a green light as well. I am streaming video from shared network locations as mapped drives for convenience. Audio, MC and the MC Library are setup locally on the PC.

Yeah, that was probably fine for the same reason as the GPU driver above.  It annoys me how they all package their drivers with package numbers that don't match the version numbers.  I get why (they're just big "driver packs" really, that's how they're able to unify them into single-downloads for big ranges of hardware), but it still annoys me.

Reply #4.4 Twonky
The Twonky server is associated with a NAS that has it bundled along with the firmware. The NAS is set up in simple JBOD for data storage. I don't stream media from it via Twonky. I can't uninstall Twonky separately and the firmware can't be rolled back according to the OEM's advice. I can always disconnect it from the network. I did go into the Twonky settings and disabled integration. The Windows Device Manager doesn't show a Twonky device, so, if there's a driver still loaded (somehow?), then how do I find it and then how do I remove it?

The firmware on the NAS doesn't have anything to do with the software they provide for your PC.  They might bundle the firmware updater tool with that (obnoxious, but okay), but you cannot "uninstall" the firmware on your NAS by removing some software from your computer.  That's not possible!  Once the firmware is updated, it is updated (unless you take some action to re-flash it with some different firmware).  That's what makes firmware firm.

In any case, probably not worth worrying about unless none of the rest solves it.  I don't have any specific knowledge that Twonky is... well, wonky.  But, I can see it being related.  It raises a couple "vaguely scary signals" that makes my spidey sense twitch:

1. It is a "free" pack-in with hardware devices.
2. It installs a bunch of drivers, including one called "legacy" something or other.

And, it is probably some kind of iTunes/DLNA server which serves media on the network.  If their DLNA implementation is craptastic, and MC is trying to query it on the network as part of MC's Auto-DLNA discovery stuff... Well, I can see it eventually causing one of them (or both) to puke up a lung, possibly leading to the crash.

It wasn't my first choice of a culprit, but it is vaguely suspicious.

So, if you continue to have trouble, I might investigate this further.  In any case, you should be able to uninstall it somehow without breaking the rest of your NAS functionality.  If you're not sure, post the make/model of your NAS and I'll look it up.
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 10:48:01 pm »

Reply #4.x Disk Check
I haven't had cause to suspect the drives are an issue. I've recently chkdsk and resolved some errors on the primary HDD in the media partition and everything came through with a green light. I'm in the process of doing a backup before it's weekly schedule and will then run through the checks in your guide.

So, actually, before I leave you... I should explain a little something about this thing.

You said "I've recently chkdsk and resolved some errors on the primary HDD in the media partition".  That's good that it fixed the errors.  But... What does that mean?  What does chkdsk fix when it is fixing those issues?

Well... The job of a filesystem is to allow the computer to keep track of the stuff you write out to disk, and allow you to read them back later.  To the disk, there is no concept of a "file".  There are blocks, which contain data, that might be junk or might be useful stuff (the disk doesn't know or care), broken up into some kind of storage structure (on an actual spinning disc, or via a NAND controller on an SSD).  In any case, it doesn't know what a file is.  It just knows how to "get the block at address X, and read it, or write to the block at address Y, etc.  The filesystem keeps track of which data blocks belong to which files, what directory they're in, what blocks are free on disk, and all of that.  It is a big collection of metadata, not unlike MC's Library.

Chkdsk, like the POSIX fsck command, verifies that the filesystem metadata is in a consistent state with the data structures actually on disk.  The key words there, however, is metadata.  NTFS and HFS+ (and FAT-based and ext2/3 and other similar filesystems) don't protect, in any way, the data within the files.  All of the bits that make up the file's data (the part that makes a PDF a PDF and a DOC a DOC) it doesn't check or care about in any way.  The filesystem doesn't even checksum the data blocks, so it has no idea of they've become all totally scrambled, and certainly has no way to put things back together once it is broken.

These filesystems only protect (if they protect anything at all) the metadata about those data structures (files) on disk.  It keeps track of where all the files should be, and changes it made to get there (in a journaling filesystem anyway), and it checksums this data so it can tell if things got corrupt.  Chkdsk and similar tools scan through the actual filesystem structures written to disc and it checks to make sure the "database" matches.  It reads sectors marked as free and makes sure the filesystem's volume bitmap actually considers them free.  It checks security flags and stuff like that.  It does not check the files themselves.

I just wanted to make that completely clear.

Now, lots of times, the filesystem errors it finds are completely benign.  Things like blocks that are free being still considered used, file size inconsistencies, etc.  However, sometimes the filesystem really did lose some stuff because of a physical fault.  Data blocks got corrupted.  Because of the journaling and checksumming, the filesystem itself can recover and put itself into a consistent state.

But that doesn't mean the files are okay underneath.  Whatever caused the filesystem malfunction certainly could have also broken data-containing blocks on disk.  But that data on disc could be all scrambled and your FLAC file might no longer be a FLAC, but random data or bits-and-pieces of other files mashed together.

I only point all this out because... And you hope not because finding it can be a PITA, but... It could be a few corrupt files on your media volume, from whatever incident caused the filesystem errors you mentioned.  Chkdsk would come out clean, because the filesystem is no longer messed up.  But like I said, it doesn't care one iota about the data inside the files.  If MC is encountering and trying to analyze or otherwise touch totally broken files which contain gobbledegook, then... Well, it is known to crash sometimes when it encounters files like that.

PS. All of this is why we need next-gen filesystems now.  I know Linux has ZFS, but it does have some performance problems, and is creaky in its own ways... btrfs has a lot of promise, of course, but it isn't ready at all for prime-time, and all of these are linux filesystems.  I want a better one on OSX and Windows, thanks.  If you want to know more, read this article, and then weep because you can't have any of that coolness on Windows.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 11:53:34 pm »

Well, hrm....

I didn't make this clear, but I wouldn't have done all of that at once.  I suppose if you don't really care about the cause and just want it fixed, that's a way to go, but it would be better to do it methodically and see where the problem does or does not lie.

Where's the Homer "d'oh!" icon in the smiley face gallery? Missed that bit in the fine print.

Regarding disabling the board's audio, I've only used it initially to make sure that part of the MoBo was functional. It hasn't been used since and probably won't be needed for the foreseeable future, so it's unlikely to be missed. If I do re-engage the audio, I'll go to Realtek and get their latest before I do.

Great feedback in any case. I'm chewing through the disk checking commentary.

That's why we suggest to uninstall the security suite.  Because if it is removed and the issue persists, then there's no chance it is the cause, and then you can put it back on if you want to (though I'd generally argue that Windows Defender, or a similar non-aggressive suite, and some basic good security practices will make you just as safe with less aggravation).

Other than Windows Defender, what rates as "a similar non-aggressive suite"?

I just like options to choose from.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2014, 12:36:34 am »

I just wanted to make that completely clear.

Got it.

...

I only point all this out because... And you hope not because finding it can be a PITA, but... It could be a few corrupt files on your media volume, from whatever incident caused the filesystem errors you mentioned.

PS. All of this is why we need next-gen filesystems now.  I know Linux has ZFS, but it does have some performance problems, and is creaky in its own ways... btrfs has a lot of promise, of course, but it isn't ready at all for prime-time, and all of these are linux filesystems.  I want a better one on OSX and Windows, thanks.  If you want to know more, read this article, and then weep because you can't have any of that coolness on Windows.

Thanks for that piece of clue-ing in. It explains why I was intuitively suspicious of chkdsk.

As a suggestion, you might want to footnote this piece of "good oil" to your disk check troubleshooting guide as background info. Just link your post here. I haven't read the linked article but I shake my head that Linux is a role model. I say that because Linux has its origins in common with the Unix operating system VAX that used to crash on us back at Uni when computer assignments were due. And all we were doing was simple Fortran coding .. how far have we come, really? Well, we've still moved on but it's a lesson in keeping a design simple and robust first and then flash, bells and whistles second.

Cheers.
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus) - Round 2
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2014, 07:03:25 pm »

Even after working through the long checklist of points from glynor, AppCrash came back. Here's the diagnostic package:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3rps5nzcizhwifg/AppCrash_201403Mar05.zip

Some Background Notes
  • The PC (viz. HTPC1) was playing audio from the onboard media at the time of the crash
  • On board audio has been left in disabled mode and the Realtek driver package has not been reinstalled
    • Windows Defender was off (pic attached) with no other anti-virus software in operation
    • Since the last instalment, error checks were done on the primary HDD (Western Digital WD20NPVT) and the SSD (SanDisk Extreme SDSSDX-240G-G25) that works in cache mode with the HDD using Intel RST
    • The WD20NPVT is partitioned with the OS and the library on C, the JRiver application is loaded on E and the media files that were being played at the time are located on F
    • The WD20NPVT was checked overnight using Data Lifeguard Diagnostic v1.25 and showed zero errors
    • The SDSSDX-240G-G25 was updated to the latest firmware (R211) and checked with HD Tune v2.55 and showed zero errors
    • At the time I was working on the second HTPC (predictably named HTPC2) on my network. I've set HTPC2 to record TV and HTPC1 to check the Recorded TV folder on HTPC2 and stream the video over the network. The intent here is to maintain MC functionality but to isolate HTPC1 from working too hard for this troubleshooting exercise.
    • Both HTPCs are networked to 2 x HD HomeRun DVB-T tuners
    • There was no TV being recorded at the time of the crash

    glynor, you asked about the NAS that shows up in Reporter. It's a NAS-M25 (firmware version 1.0.1.7) that by the lights displayed, is asleep but alive on the network. I've got another NAS that was powered down at the time but still pokeable via WoL.

    OK, that's it from me. I'll sit tight and leave the setup as is until I hear back. I'll enable the log function in case something else happens in the interim. And I promise that any "next steps" will be done one at a time.. honest.

    Until then, thanks in advance..  ;)
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2014, 07:15:42 pm »

Did you take a look at the orange light problem in your attached image?

The next build has a fix that could be related.
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2014, 07:28:40 pm »

Thanks for the question.

Do you want the full list? That will require a number of screenshots unless there's a convenient way of dumping this as a text log. I'd need guidance for that.

It's got log reports dating back to 26 Nov 2013, for various software. That date is about when the machine was built with it's new MoBo and Win 8.1 was loaded.

Whenever I get a Windows crash / check for a solution online message, it has never in my experience actually offered up anything of use. So, this lack of effective response has conditioned me to ignore that part of the system. If that's a sign of delinquence on my part, feel free to educate me.

Cheers ..
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2014, 07:43:39 pm »

Is Windows up to date and happy?
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2014, 07:50:19 pm »

Is Windows up to date and happy?

Yes but for good measure, see attached for a status check.
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 11:29:39 pm »

I'm getting low on ideas, sorry.

My next thing I'd probably do at my house, if I really can't recreate it on any other machines, would be to pull out my backup hard drive, disconnect my real boot drive, and fire up a clean install of Windows.  See if it comes back there.

If so, either you've got:
1. A bug in MC.
2. Broken hardware.
3. Corrupt files somewhere.

I'd try to methodically try to determine if corrupt media files are causing it (#3).  Create a test-set of known good media (you've played every single one, and they all work), and see if it happens with MC looking at ONLY those files.  Add more in, in a slow, controlled fashion, and test until it comes back.

Of course, this is a huge PITA if you can't easily take the machine down for a while, especially since it isn't easy to "trigger" your issue (it is a waiting game, it seems).

My only other half-way decent idea (related to Jim's query above) is: Did you try sfc?

I will add however...

I had a crash of MC on my server tonight.  I'm a couple builds back there though (118).  It freaked out while I was playing video back on my HTPC.  Actually, I'd played an entire episode of Dora without issue, but then tried to start one which happened to have been deleted (so that failed, which always takes a long time from the client-side), but then it didn't seem to recover right and Theater View started acting all funky.  I could start new files playing back, but MC hung for a LONG time before playback started, and thumbnails were going all wonky (wrong images displayed for movies and stuff).

So, I closed MC and tried to re-open it on the HTPC, but it was messed up (it seemed to quit normally, but the Media Center 19.exe process kept running and wouldn't quit, so it couldn't relaunch).  I tried manually killing it in Process Explorer and it wouldn't die.  So, I rebooted, and then tried to connect again.  It couldn't find the Library Server.

So, I walk downstairs to check on MC there, and when I pointed my mouse at the Library Server icon in the tray, it vanished (so it had crashed earlier, probably causing the problems at the HTPC end).  I'm not sure why this happened, or exactly when.  But that just happened tonight, and I thought it was worth mentioning.

If it happens again, I'll be suspicious.  But it could have been some oddball coincidence.  It is entirely possible that SageTV was right in the middle of deleting the file I tried to start playing as I tried to play it or something (I have SageTV set to only keep the 25 most recent episodes of Dora, and other similar shows, and it auto-deletes the older ones, so that could have happened).  Dunno.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2014, 01:25:05 am »

Thanks. I'll give SFC a try.

I am planning an HDD change but the logistics will take time. I'd expect that by the time delivery comes through we might be working with a new build across the board..  ;)
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 07:30:02 am »

I had a severe problem on my machine for about six months.  It started and stopped with no hardware changes, and the machine was a year old when it started.  The OS would crash and dump.  It happened once or twice a week and I just was too lazy to chase it.  I thought I'd rebuild it soon, but never did.

I could never tie it to what was running or what I was doing.  Sometimes it would happen while I was using it, sometimes while I was at lunch.

About a month ago or so, the problem disappeared.  I had not changed any hardware.

Of course, I suspect Windows updates.  It was Win7 64.
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2014, 07:39:09 am »

I'm hoping SFC comes up with a negative. One for tomorrow.

I'll see whether life is trouble free with 120.
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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2014, 03:59:03 pm »

Nuts .. I got a negative. See pic for dialogue message. The full CBS.log is in the package here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sdv11rd53u3sbsv/sfc_Info_201403Mar06.zip
There's also the summary log sfcdetails.txt.

From the feedback in sfcdetails.txt that's in plain English, I'm seeing printer driver fail to repair advice.

Thoughts? Next steps?
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2014, 04:15:17 pm »

If sfc found corruption it can't repair, the only good option is to reinstall Windows from scratch.  Sorry bub, it's hosed.

To be clear, this means: System files (pieces of the operating system itself) ARE corrupt.  It isn't a "might be corrupt" thing, or a "these might or might not be important" thing... This tool should come back clean.  All the time.

The sfc tool basically scans all of the essential system files that are part of Windows itself, checksums them, and verifies that the files match what they "should be" (including all Windows updates that have been applied to modify them, and all of that good stuff).  So, if these fail, then either system files got corrupted, or worse, they were intentionally replaced with "bad" versions by malware.

This isn't something that can be ignored, or worked around. It is possible to repair them yourself if you are extremely talented, but this is almost never a good idea (because updates of updates of updates make this process nearly impossible to match versions, even if you know which files are corrupt).  Plus, there is a very good chance that if some of the system files became corrupt somehow (probably a disk error, as discussed earlier), then other files that sfc doesn't know about probably got corrupted too.

So... Bad news, but at least you know what you have ahead of you.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2014, 04:42:42 pm »

Hey, I'm looking at it along the lines of advice that I got from a Doc:
Quote
When you've got a boil, there's only one thing you can do. Lance it and squeeze out the pus.

Well, you can always leave stuff fester but you'll be up for amputation later.

Sounds like I've got my weekend plan already written into the diary.

Thanks for the help.

I've got media on a partition of the drive in question and I'd like to minimise my workload if I can. So, I take it that squaring away the OS on the relevant system partition is what should be required? If I have to blow everything away I will but I'd prefer not to.
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2014, 06:52:38 pm »

You can certainly just blow away the Windows partition.

However, I'd recommend something else instead (if you're not poor, I guess).  Are you now running with a SSD system disk?

If not, now is the time.  Get a new disk, install there, while keeping your existing system intact.  This has a couple of benefits:

1. You can back out if you need.
2. Migrating your information and settings over is made much easier if you can actually re-connect the old drive and boot your "old" computer back up to grab the stuff you forgot.
3. It lets you have a working system while your migration is in-progress.  When you're done working for the day, disconnect the new drive, reconnect the old drive, and presto, it is just as you left it until you finish.

And, perhaps most importantly, if you aren't running on an SSD, that is the SINGLE MOST EFFECTIVE UPGRADE you can do to any computer.  Without a doubt.  It is a revelation, when you first use one, and there is no going back.

Plus, they're reasonably cheap right now, and going on sale all the time.  The Crucial M500 in particular is a great disk and often available for very cheap pricing.  Another good one to look at for cheap is the Samsung 840 EVO (which is a great value performer).

I actually just picked up a 250GB Crucial M500 to use as a spare, just in case one of my other two SSDs die (or my Windows partition gets messed up and I want to do what you're doing).  I had a few small Newegg gift cards lying about from the holidays and I managed to grab one for ~$75 total.  That wasn't the "actual" price, but I didn't have that much in gift cards.  It sells regularly here for $128-ish, and I think I got it on a Newegg door-buster sale for $99, or something like that...

For the money, if you're going to nuke and pave Windows anyway, well worth it.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2014, 07:34:46 pm »

You can certainly just blow away the Windows partition.

However, I'd recommend something else instead (if you're not poor, I guess).  Are you now running with a SSD system disk?

Thanks for the reassurance. Yep - I've implemented the integrated option of SSD+HDD:
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/smart-response-technology.html

So, the SSD is set up to the maximum cache size of 64GB. Performs well enough for me.

Feel free to educate me on whether this option is good, bad, neutral.

Cross globe price check from the place where I've sunk a fair amount of my wealth:
http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=159&bid=2&sid=132736
One of those Crucial SSDs goes for 179 plastic dollars. Your paper version is obviously valued higher, even though it doesn't travel as well as ours if they get stuck in your jeans pocket..  ;)
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2014, 10:17:43 am »

Well...  Smart Response is... Better than nothing.  I actually use it alongside a RAID-1 (mirroring) volume that I have as my "users" partition, and it helps in many cases, but it isn't ideal in many others (and does NOT have performance like a real SSD installation).

Smart Response, unlike Apple's Fusion Drive system, is essentially a fancy cache.  It has two major "components", read and write caching.

For write caching, in the normal "enhanced" mode (which is really all you should use as the Max mode has other issues), it is a write-through cache.  This means that any data written to the volume must hit both the SSD cache AND the HDD itself before the write is released.  This has some benefits, as changes are guaranteed to always be written to the HDD in full, so if the SSD fails, your volume isn't toast (just not accelerated anymore).  However, this obviously heavily negates one of the main benefits of an SSD!  All writes still go to the HDD, and are still subject to regular HDD latency.  There's really very limited benefit from Smart Response directly when it comes to writes.  The only reason it actually writes to the SSD at all is to pre-build the cache for future Read operations (since the write obviously touches a "recently used" block, it would want to cache it anyway for future read purposes). 

Smart Response is primarily a read-caching system.  Now, of course, having that Read cache can, itself, help with writes, because reads happening simultaneously can (if they've been cached) hit the SSD alone and not touch the spinning disk.  As AnandTech puts it: "Note that you may still see an improvement in write performance vs. a non-cached hard drive because the SSD offloading read requests can free up your hard drive to better fulfill write requests."

But, to be clear, write performance in an Enhanced-mode Smart Response setup is limited by the performance of the spinning disk.

The read caching system is much easier to understand... I'll let Anand explain again:

Quote
Intel's SRT functions like an actual cache. Rather than caching individual files, Intel focuses on frequently accessed LBAs (logical block addresses). Read a block enough times or write to it enough times and those accesses will get pulled into the SSD cache until it's full. When full, the least recently used data gets evicted making room for new data.

That's pretty straightforward, and works pretty well.  It basically caches frequently accessed logical blocks to the SSD, which then can be read directly from the SSD on future reads.  That works pretty well, though it is limited to 64GB.

What this means is, that for common use-cases, Smart Response will make read-heavy operations that you do frequently (primarily launching a commonly used application) feel nearly indistinguishable from an SSD.

However, write-heavy operations (which often includes booting and shutting windows down, and certainly includes accessing MC's Library) have essentially no performance enhancement.  The problem is, that the way we usually use our computers doesn't translate well to benchmarks of single applications.  When multi-tasking, like a normal human, the system is constantly doing reads and writes and switching contexts.  This is the biggest benefit of an SSD (random access performance is an order of magnitude better than on a spinning disk), but Intel's Smart Response cache doesn't provide much of these benefits because it is limited by the write performance (and Random Access IOps) of your HDD.

To combat this, you can set up Smart Response in Maximum mode, which allows certain writes to only hit the SSD, and then be later written to the HDD in the background.  This seems like it would solve the problem.  But, there are some issues...  Because it is still a cache, and not really "part of" the "true volume" (as far as Windows is concerned) if something bad happens before that background write to the HDD happens (maybe you lose power), your volume can get in a very bad state.  Basically, the HDD is the "truth" and the SSD is considered ephemeral.  For this reason, Intel is pretty aggressive even in Max mode about pushing changes out to the HDD.  They're not technically "blocking" for the HDD write anymore, but it doesn't delay for long, which means in write-intensive situations, the HDD is still kept pretty busy.  This limits the overall performance benefit of the system, when it comes to writes, and in benchmarks, the write-performance benefit for enabling Max mode is often pretty limited.  And, in fact, it often hurts read performance (because you lose some of that magic of freeing up the HDD for simultaneous reads).

Benchmarks show mixed results when using Max mode, and even in best case the differences are relatively small.

Incidentally, this is in contrast to Apple's Fusion Drive system, which actually "unifies" the SSD and the HDD into a single volume.  The full SSD and the full HDD are used simultaneously, almost like a RAID-0 (striped) array.  So, if you use Fusion Drive on a 1TB HDD and a 128GB SSD, you actually end up with 1.1TB of usable storage (the combination of the two).  And, unlike Intel's system, ALL writes to the volume are written to the SSD, and never touch the HDD.  The system then later moves infrequently accessed data to the HDD, but since the SSD is part of the "truth" this can be done minutes or hours (or days) later when the system is truly idle.

And, of course, it can and will fill the entire SSD up with data.  If you "fuse" a 1TB SSD and a 1TB HDD (giving 2TB of total disk space), and only have 500GB of data written to the volume?  The HDD will be totally BLANK, and the SSD will have all of the data.  Since the SSD is part of the truth, you don't need to worry about constantly swapping data between the two disks to keep updating the truth.  It isn't a cache, it is an expanded volume, that is smart about performance characteristics.  In practice, Apple's Fusion Drive system feels much, much closer in all scenarios to a true SSD.

Of course, the big downside to this is that, like a striped RAID volume, if you lose one or the other, the whole thing is toast.  So, this requires a good backup strategy.

None of that matters, but it just drives me nuts how people think Apple's Fusion drive was just Smart Response rebranded.  It isn't.  The technologies are entirely different.

So...

I just figured I'd mention all of this and explain.  If you have the cash, you'd still see a decent performance bump from going to a 250GB SSD and putting your entire OS partition on there.  Nowhere near the bump you got from going to the Smart Response cache in the first place, but it is different.  It is primarily different when:

1. Multitasking.
2. Using database heavy applications (and none of us ever do this, right).
3. Boot and shutdown times, especially when you include the time it takes to make the system "usable" (including all of the tray icon applications starting up and whatnot).
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2014, 04:00:46 pm »

Good read. Thanks.

I'll leave Michael Caton to explain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5KbMolsUPA

If you're interested in the movie that this piece comes from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Castle_%28film%29
It's a classic down under way.
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2014, 07:37:21 pm »

As a post script to this, I had one machine give me a fail message following an "sfc /scannow" process.

I did some checking and came across this (plus other related threads elsewhere):
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh824869.aspx

After implementing:
"Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth"
I got a thumbs up and as a double check, "sfc /scannow" also gave the PC a clean bill of health.

Saved me messing about with a re-build. Useful tool..  ;)
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2014, 11:30:24 pm »

You sent me this via PM.  I think my reply can be public.  I intended to give one anyway, but lost this thread in the shuffle after I read about your success.

Quick one in case you missed it:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87832.msg605187#msg605187

Is this comment good/bad/neutral for general understanding?
Is there value in adding relevant comment to the troubleshooting guide?

Cheers ..  ;)

I think it is valid, for sure, and probably fixed the problem in your case.

But not a good general recommendation.  SFC is pretty safe (it is quite conservative), and often effective, but more importantly it is a diagnostic tool.  If:

1. The problem was caused by a borked (1/2 way complete) Windows Update, then using DISM like this would fix it.  But what caused the issue in the first place?  If you lost power mid-update, maybe... But otherwise, something terrible went wrong.

Perhaps the vagaries of Microsoft's insane patch system, where you're patching patches of patches of patches, and it does this crazy incremental update thing... That can go wrong, but usually not without some root cause.

I would guess that it is nearly 100% likely that something in the Windows update process caused problems in the component store on your computer, and that's why this fixed it for you.  That was great work, and if I wasn't just prone to nuking it, would be the next logical step.

2. If the problem wasn't caused by a borked Windows update, then what caused it?  This means that System Files (protected ones, not stuff userland applications are allowed to touch, in normal cases) got corrupted in some way.  If SFC can't fix them, then that basically means it wasn't in a "common way" (or something likely to be caused by a combination of known conditions, usually in the Updating system referenced above).

So, what caused it?
* Malware?
* Hardware failure?
* Software bug?  (Causing some otherwise innocuous application to start doing crazy things)?
* PEBKAC?
* Undocumented hardware bug?
* Bad luck/cosmic ray/series of strange events?

None of those are good.  None of them are easy to clean up after (unless you know the exact history of the event), and be sure you "got it all".  And the last two are quite unlikely (though still certainly possible), so less likely to be transient considering the same circumstances.

This function of the DISM tool is designed to do replacement of system files with the original versions (taking into account updates where possible), basically just like a reinstall.  It is a reinstall of some files, without replacing everything.

It can work.  Probably did in this case.  It makes me nervous.  Because, it can only "fix" those files that are part of the Windows image.  It can't fix anything that wasn't part of the windows image, and maybe that stuff got corrupted too (including, perhaps parts of the registry, other applications, or god knows what).  So, to me, it is better to use a fresh image than a fixed one, especially one you had to do "live" brain surgery on.  Windows can do it, and maybe I'm just old school, but... I'd reimage it, unless I was sure about the root cause.

So, that's why I wouldn't go into using DISM.  Plus, perhaps more importantly, that is a DEEP, experts tool, command line only, that can cause havoc and requires a bit of work on some systems to prep.  There be dragons.

That all said...

I'm very glad you got it fixed, and pulling out DISM was a great idea.  It might be worth deploying in situations like this, where there really is no apparent damage.  I'd really prefer to do an offline (not booted to that system) scan of the OS disk for Malware, in at least a couple tools.

And I'd replace my hard drive cable.

But, I think you probably squashed that puppy.  If you see no further issues, you should be good.  If you see further issues, then I'd strongly suspect hardware or malware you didn't detect/get cleaned (or detrius from the previous incident, maybe -- that's why I'd re-image).

Anyhow... Those are my rambling, disconnected thoughts.
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glynor

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2014, 11:40:27 pm »

I think this could actually be warranted to include in cases where there are signs of Windows Update problems, though.  This most often manifests in:

* Installation failures of software generally
* Windows updates "stuck", failing to install, or continually showing up as available.

In those cases, this guide is a great place to start, along with the TechNet info above:
http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/26512-dism-fixing-component-store-corruption-windows-8-a.html
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astromo

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Re: AppCrash using MC19.0.118 (No Anti-Virus)
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2014, 12:37:27 am »

Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Appreciated. And I get the caution in your response - sensible.

Philosophically, if I've got a dragon in there it appears to be asleep, so I'm just going to Hobbit my way around it and leave things alone.

Until next time .. may it be a long way away ..  ;)
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