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[DaveAbC]

Hi everyone,

I've been looking al over the web to find a solution for the SACD ISO playback i'm experiencing. Playing smal SACD ISO's in MC19 is working effortlessly using the ASIO direct connection on my Asus essence stx in windows 8.1. Im using the latest driver from the Asus website.

There's no difference in the playback when the filesize of the SACD ISO is larger. They all stutter heavily above 2 gb of size.

Playing them in WASAPI mode works whitout any problems but then i'm experiencing less soundquality.

This is the benchmark on my very recently build HTPC (i3, 16gb ram)

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 4,344 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2,661 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 2,199 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 1,417 seconds
Score: 1789

Running 'Beeld' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0,509 seconds
    Flood filling... 0,357 seconds
    Direct copying... 0,515 seconds
    Small renders... 1,166 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 1,299 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 0,877 seconds
Score: 4658

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0,424 seconds
    Populate database... 1,181 seconds
    Save database... 0,217 seconds
    Reload database... 0,055 seconds
    Search database... 1,017 seconds
    Sort database... 0,839 seconds
    Group database... 0,622 seconds
Score: 4938

When playing the smaller SACD ISO's the Cpu load remains about 2%. When playing the larger iso's the Cpu load skips fastly between 4% and 11%

Anyone any suggestions to resolve the problem?

Thanks in advance,

Greetz Dave

[6233638]

Try enabling or disabling Memory Playback and see if that helps.
 
Both the way that memory playback works, and how SACDs are handled changed in MC19, and this has been causing me lots of problems.
Rather than a continuous lower-level amount of CPU usage as seen in MC18, MC19 has lots of spikes of high CPU usage during playback, but especially every time the track changes. (not shown here)
 
It interferes with anything else I am doing on the computer whether that's something simple like scrolling down a page in my web browser, or something more intensive like running a game while listening to music.
I have brought this up several times before, but no-one seemed interested.
 
Media Center 18:

 
Media Center 19 with Memory Playback Enabled:

 
Media Center 19 with Memory Playback Disabled:

 
Note: my CPU is clocked at 4.5GHz, task manager lists the stock speed in the upper right, not the speed that it's running at.
 
 
MC19 is far more intrusive on the operation of the PC compared to MC18, which rarely ever interfered with other programs.

[JimH]

Are the files local?  Or on a network drive?

[DaveAbC]

Try enabling or disabling Memory Playback and see if that helps.
 

Thanks for the idea,

I found the memory playback option was disabled. When I enabled it and tried to play the sacd iso it stutters so bad you would think the computer to crash. But after 10 seconds it plays the iso better than with memory playback disabled. But only for the next 30 seconds. Then the pc almost crashes again.

[DaveAbC]

Are the files local?  Or on a network drive?

The're on a local drive. I even tried to play the sacd iso from the machines SSD. But same problem here.

[oldzorki]

Have you tried to split ISO file using sacd_extract utility into separate DSF? That is what I do now, and it works fine as long as SACD image confirms with Scarlet Book.

[DaveAbC]

Have you tried to split ISO file using sacd_extract utility into separate DSF? That is what I do now, and it works fine as long as SACD image confirms with Scarlet Book.

Which settings do you recommend and won't the files become too big? Isn't there a loss in sound quality?

Thanks,
Dave

[6233638]

Thanks for the idea,

I found the memory playback option was disabled. When I enabled it and tried to play the sacd iso it stutters so bad you would think the computer to crash. But after 10 seconds it plays the iso better than with memory playback disabled. But only for the next 30 seconds. Then the pc almost crashes again.

If you look at the graphs in my previous post, you will see that with memory playback enabled, CPU usage hits 100% every 30 seconds or so.
 
It seems like your system is probably doing the same thing, and your ASIO buffer is too small to prevent that from interfering with playback. Try setting it to the maximum size possible.

[oldzorki]

Which settings do you recommend and won't the files become too big? Isn't there a loss in sound quality?

Thanks,
Dave

I am using options -s -P -2.
Summary size of resulting files is exactly the same as a "whole" ISO.
There no change in sound quality as no conversion is taking place, however there are possible some tiny "clicks" at the beginning or end at each track (not loud, sounds like a "niddle drop", has something to do with sacd_extract bug in processing partial blocks). I encountered it once or twice, not a biggy..

[DaveAbC]

If you look at the graphs in my previous post, you will see that with memory playback enabled, CPU usage hits 100% every 30 seconds or so.
 
It seems like your system is probably doing the same thing, and your ASIO buffer is too small to prevent that from interfering with playback. Try setting it to the maximum size possible.

I tried all the buffersizes possible. In MC and hardware settings.

Does everybody has this problem?

[DaveAbC]

I am using options -s -P -2.
Summary size of resulting files is exactly the same as a "whole" ISO.
There no change in sound quality as no conversion is taking place, however there are possible some tiny "clicks" at the beginning or end at each track (not loud, sounds like a "niddle drop", has something to do with sacd_extract bug in processing partial blocks). I encountered it once or twice, not a biggy..

Is that a freeware program? Can you give me a download link? I can't find these options in the JRiver converter.

[oldzorki]

Is that a freeware program? Can you give me a download link? I can't find these options in the JRiver converter.

Yes, it is a freeware and not related to JRiver, please google it as I am not sure if external links to other products are allowed on this forum.
You can also use JRiver conversion tool from Library tools, but something definetely happenning there and it is not a simple split. For example, DSF files from sacd_extract are several decibel louder, which make quility comparision very difficult. Perhaps it is negligible. On other hand JRiver can produces 24/352 FLAC files, which can be an interesting option if you have DAC which can handle this speed (I don't).
I am using OPPO BDP-105 and it does not support SACD ISO at the moment, so I compared streaming 2 dsf files produced from the same image.

[DaveAbC]

Thanks for the advice thusfar.

But even when I rip the iso to the biggest unconpressed Wave format, I can blindly tell the difference in soundquality between the iso en the rip in advance of the iso.

Isn't there another solution to this problem?

Upgrading my CPU? More Ram? Other OS?

Any suggestions are welcome.

[oldzorki]

Thanks for the advice thusfar.

But even when I rip the iso to the biggest unconpressed Wave format, I can blindly tell the difference in soundquality between the iso en the rip in advance of the iso.

Isn't there another solution to this problem?

Upgrading my CPU? More Ram? Other OS?

Any suggestions are welcome.

When you split to WAV - you split to PCM, hence the conversion DSD->PCM. BTW, how you rip to WAV and are sure you actually playing it "as is"?
sacd_extract does not convert - it just "split" ISO, while adding necessary metadata information. So there should not be any changes in sound quality. I did it for most of my ISO images, as my client can play DSF via JRiver, but not SACD-R ISO (due to restrictions imposed by some content providers).

[DaveAbC]

When you split to WAV - you split to PCM, hence the conversion DSD->PCM. BTW, how you rip to WAV and are sure you actually playing it "as is"?
sacd_extract does not convert - it just "split" ISO, while adding necessary metadata information. So there should not be any changes in sound quality. I did it for most of my ISO images, as my client can play DSF via JRiver, but not SACD-R ISO (due to restrictions imposed by some content providers).

I think i'm playing the wav correctly. It follows the same audiopath as the iso. I tried the DSD format in JRiver but the volume is way to low.

My dac can handle bitrates up to 24/192. Does sacd_extract offer this size? I can't get the program to work. The .exe doesn't pop up when running the program.

[6233638]

Isn't there another solution to this problem?
Upgrading my CPU? More Ram? Other OS?

The ASUS sound cards don't seem to have the best ASIO drivers. A lot of people have complained about issues with them.
 
I think there are some alternative drivers you might be able to try (I don't know any details) but failing that I would suggest using WASAPI or replacing the sound card.

[mwillems]

The ASUS sound cards don't seem to have the best ASIO drivers. A lot of people have complained about issues with them.
 
I think there are some alternative drivers you might be able to try (I don't know any details) but failing that I would suggest using WASAPI or replacing the sound card.

The alternative drivers are called the unified xonar drivers (if you google that, you'll find them), and they're much, much better than the stock drivers in terms of latency, pops, and dropouts.  They're not without the occasional issue, but I use them with all my Asus cards instead of the stock drivers, and they're worlds better.

[oldzorki]

I think i'm playing the wav correctly. It follows the same audiopath as the iso. I tried the DSD format in JRiver but the volume is way to low.

My dac can handle bitrates up to 24/192. Does sacd_extract offer this size? I can't get the program to work. The .exe doesn't pop up when running the program.

sacd_extract is a command-line utility and you need to open a cmd prompt to run it.
JRiver creates 24/352 wav from DSD, no way you could play it on your DAC without your playing downconverting.

[6233638]

I would recommend leaving your SACD rips as iso files rather than converting them.
Conversion can cause problems for gapless albums, or creating clicks in-between tracks.
 
By all means convert a track or two to test it, but I suspect that is not your problem here.
Most likely it's DST compressed tracks raising your CPU usage too high for the size of ASIO buffer in use.
 
Edit: actually you could test that by converting to DSF rather than DFF, as DSF does not use compression.
But I would strongly recommend against mass-conversion to DSF via this tool.

[oldzorki]

I would recommend leaving your SACD rips as iso files rather than converting them.
Conversion can cause problems for gapless albums, or creating clicks in-between tracks.
 
By all means convert a track or two to test it, but I suspect that is not your problem here.
Most likely it's DST compressed tracks raising your CPU usage too high for the size of ASIO buffer in use.
 
Edit: actually you could test that by converting to DSF rather than DFF, as DSF does not use compression.
But I would strongly recommend against mass-conversion to DSF via this tool.

Well, no one aks to remove source ISO files. But my OPPO does not accept SACD stream, DSF only.
So I keep both.

[DaveAbC]

I've triend the unified driver but no difference.

Do you think it is a hardware or software problem? Any suggestions for a different soundcard? (€150 in the trashcan)

I've found an other sacd iso with a size of 3,6 gb and plays effortlessly. Strange...

Do all of you xonar essence owners experiancing the same issues?

[oldzorki]

I've triend the unified driver but no difference.

Do you think it is a hardware or software problem? Any suggestions for a different soundcard? (€150 in the trashcan)

I've found an other sacd iso with a size of 3,6 gb and plays effortlessly. Strange...

Do all of you xonar essence owners experiancing the same issues?

May be this "difficult" ISO files are DSD128? What bitrate is shown by JRiver? Then conversion will be slower..
Your soundcard is not supporting DSD directly, so all the processing DSD->PCM happens before soundcard..

[6233638]

May be this "difficult" ISO files are DSD128? What bitrate is shown by JRiver? Then conversion will be slower..
Your soundcard is not supporting DSD directly, so all the processing DSD->PCM happens before soundcard..

SACDs only store 1xDSD (64Fs) and not 2xDSD. (128Fs)


As I said above, it sounds like the problem is playback of DST compressed files (requires more CPU) and the limited size ASIO buffer that the ASUS drivers allow you to select.
 
I'm not sure why ASIO is necessary if WASAPI works correctly though. (Media Center uses a 100ms buffer by default, and that can be increased to 500ms)
 
 
I would like to see improvements made to CPU usage when playing back DSD audio, as I think there has been a big performance regression in MC19 compared to playback in MC18, but I'm not sure that it's something the current team would be able to address. (it sounds like Matt was behind all the DSD stuff)

[oldzorki]

SACDs only store 1xDSD (64Fs) and not 2xDSD. (128Fs)

You are correct, I mixed up with DSD128 downloads, mea culpa.
What I do not understand is why conversion to FLAC before playing is bad, if PC does it anyway while using this audio card.

[DaveAbC]

I can really say asio sounds better then wasapi.

Pity the're seems to be no solution.

[DaveAbC]

Sacd iso's with more than 20 tracks keep stuttering. Converting tracks from the iso to dsd in jriver doesn't work problemfree. Cracks and clicks appear in the tracks. Is the CPU load in the converting process the same bug as in the sacd iso plaback.

So I can never get the tracks to play problemfree in the highest bitrate?