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Author Topic: HDMI over Ethernet  (Read 9882 times)

kenterickson

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HDMI over Ethernet
« on: March 16, 2014, 07:58:11 pm »

Since I have found that my AVR supports only audio via DLNA I am scrambling to try to figure out another way to use MC as a complete media player, allowing me to select and play videos, images, albums,etc.   One way to do that would be to be able to send video and images over the network, then do a conversion from Ethernet to HDMI and plug it into one of the HDMI ports of my AVR.  Since DLNA supports video and images it seems that having a device that is DLNA compliant which does nothing more than act as a renderer and output HDMI would be feasible.   However, I haven't been able to find such a device, and it is possible that no such device, nor a market for such a device exists.   

Comments?
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jmone

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2014, 08:07:30 pm »

While you can use Ethernet cabling to act as transport layer it needs to be a separate run (not part of your network) and you then need Baluns at each end.  You might as well run a dedicated HDMI Cable if you can.  The other option is to add a HTPC, even somthing like this.
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astromo

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2014, 08:18:18 pm »

Sounds like Jim's got his 1st pre-order for the Synapse:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87884.0
... it's a little while away, so jmone's plan will probably work to your short term schedule better.
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RoderickGI

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2014, 11:28:22 pm »

As per my reply in your last thread, you may want to consider a long HDMI cable. In fact, I would consider that option first, depending on how far apart your PC and Integra DTR 30.5 receiver are. If you use HDMI you should be able to send all your audio and video over the cable (check the maximum quality audio you can send over HDMI - I don't know the limitations), have your receiver process the audio and pass through the video signal to the HDMI out port of your receiver, and hence to your TV. I think you would get better quality video using the correct long HDMI cable. You could also test this configuration by temporarily moving your PC close to your receiver and see if it meets requirements, before spending money on a long HDMI cable, additional Ethernet cable, or HDMI to Ethernet adapters..

But if you want to use "HDMI over Ethernet", a quick Google comes up with lots of options, both cheap and otherwise. Note the recommendations to use Ethernet with solid copper wires, and not CCA (Copper Clad Aluminium) wires. If you have the Ethernet cable installed already, do you know what sort it is? Also, some need a separate run of Ethernet as jmone says, but others claims to work in your network environment. Some need two Ethernet cables, and others just one. Sorry I can't recommend one. You will have to do the research.

Anyway, just choose one that meets all technical requirements for video and audio, as some have limitation. Perhaps look at http://www.avforums.com/threads/best-hdmi-over-ethernet-wih-features.1794417/  for some of the better ideas.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

kenterickson

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 03:00:24 pm »

Thanks to all.  I think for the short term I have two options:

1. Run a long HDMI cable.   This is possible with some snaking through walls and possibly using something like the Redmere cables from Monoprice.    Since I use the HDMI port on my computer for a second monitor I would also want to use an HDMI switch or something to allow me to have another connection.

2. Continue with my current setup which uses JRiver for audio and a networked (non DLNA) WDTV for all video.   This is probably what I'll do while I think and research

Hopefully, downstream a  more integrated approach will make itself available.

Thanks again
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pcstockton

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 03:10:05 pm »

WDTV???
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csimon

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 06:22:35 pm »

Since DLNA supports video and images it seems that having a device that is DLNA compliant which does nothing more than act as a renderer and output HDMI would be feasible.   However, I haven't been able to find such a device, and it is possible that no such device, nor a market for such a device exists. 

Any media streamer box that can be used as a renderer, i.e. can be pushed to, should work. The most oft-quoted example is the WDTV Live.
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csimon

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 06:22:56 pm »

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csimon

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 06:24:26 pm »

2. Continue with my current setup which uses JRiver for audio and a networked (non DLNA) WDTV for all video.   This is probably what I'll do while I think and research

Ah, I didn't see this one. Why don't you feel the WDTV will do what you want, or am I missing something?
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RoderickGI

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 09:34:52 pm »

I've just been reading up on the WDTV Live, because I have a potential use for it as an extender to my HTPC. It should do what is required, acting as a DLNA client, rendering the video and passing it to the TV via HDMI to the receiver and hence on to the TV. But;

1. You originally wanted to use am iPad to control the JRiver MC Windows PC. Now you will two control points, with the WDTV Live plus remote, and iPad. You could just use the iPad to push content to the WDTV Live, but you would lose or not be able to use some functionality of the WDTV Live. Of course it might be best to use it as a dumb video renderer and let MC do all the processing necessary.

2. Take a good careful look at the video formats that the WDTV Live supports, and the ones it does not support. Ever want to watch iTunes downloaded videos? They claim it supports "almost all formats", but there are limitations. It can do up to 1920x1080p24, so this may not be an issue. But check the details. Of course MC could transcode any video sent to the WDTV Live zone to a supported format, but that adds more work for the PC.

3. Take a good careful look at the audio formats that the WDTV Live supports, and the ones it does not support. You wanted "very high quality audio, including at least 24/96 high def audio." It is only seems to support that quality audio using Dolby TrueHD. It does support "Digital Pass Through via HDMI", which would probably be preferable, but again there are limitations. See page 174 of the User Manual that you can download from the WD site. Only AAC, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, Dolby TrueHD, and WMA Pro are supported. No DTS HD High Resolution, DTS HD Master Audio, or Linear PCM for 24/96 audio. Or Bitstreaming either. (Strangely it does list DTS HD in the appendix of the User Manual though. Just not in the pass through section, or anywhere on the web site that I could find.)

I think some detailed research on that option would be a good idea before taking the plunge.

Again, all caveats. I'm no expert and I just had a quick look at the WDTV Live. If someone thinks I got something wrong, just tell me. I can take it.  :)
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

jmone

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 10:05:08 pm »

FYI - I have (had) a WDTV live and it is just "OK" (but good for the price).  It can be fussy on the network (I had dual nics in the server and it kept dropping out till I teamed them), the UI is not my cup of tea (but you can push to it from Gizmo as a Control Point) and the quality is nothing to write home about.  I've replaced it with the NUC as it is not much bigger, is much more powerful/flexible as it runs a full copy of MC (but it is more expensive). 
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pcstockton

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 11:13:50 pm »

JRemote > WDTV is sweet for video.  Not a single issue. 

I dont use it for audio though.  It does have SPDIF which I use to my Yamaha for video's audio.

I am sure it would pass along 24-192 audio if asked.
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RoderickGI

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 12:59:54 am »

I am sure it would pass along 24-192 audio if asked.

Not according to the current specifications on their web site, or the User Manual. But of course that doesn't mean that it can't or won't, as the product probably changes faster than the web site or manual. Which is why it would require detailed investigation to be sure. Also audio out via HDMI actually provides higher standards than SP/DIF.

Also, do you play Blu-ray video via the WD, and if so can it do 3D Blu-ray as well? I think the maximum official resolution of BD is 1920x1080 at 24p, 50i, or 60i, but some players can handle 50p and 60p. I can't actually find the maximum video standard that MC supports, but it certainly supports 50 and 60 fps in Red October. I'm just not sure if it is Progressive or Interlaced.

So much to learn.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

kenterickson

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 09:44:27 am »

Now I'm getting confused.   The WDTV Live is not a DLNA device.  I am surprised to see that someone can control it with JRemote.   I will give that a try later today but I do have the WDTV Live Plus which is an older version so it may not be representative of what can be done with the newer version.    I also don't understand how it can be a renderer if it is not DLNA certified, unless that is just being used as a generic term.    I was thinking that I would have two independent paths for media.   The first would be JRiver on the PC for audio and the second would be the WD device with an attached external hard drive for video and images.   I do see the WDTV Live Plus as a device in Playing Now in MC so I have something to experiment with.

My understanding (from the WD forum) is that the WD will not play HiRes audio.   It is possible that the files will play but they will be converted to 16/44.1 in order to play.

The Intel NUC is an intriguing concept but I'm kind of thinking that I can buy a laptop for $300 and use it only as a media player.   That would give me DLNA to my receiver and HDMI as well.
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JimH

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 09:58:16 am »

Check the manual.  The HDTV Live does support DLNA / UPnP.

PDF:
http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/library/UM/ENG/4779-705062.pdf
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csimon

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2014, 10:04:01 am »

I do see the WDTV Live Plus as a device in Playing Now in MC...

That means it's a DLNA renderer!  Try selecting it as a zone in MC and sending something to it. (You may need to alter conversion options in MC's DLNA server server settings).

It may well be that older versions did not behave as a DLNA renderer, however I have two models and they both work.  I think the version that contained its own hard disk probaly wouldn't be a DLNA renderer, but I don't know.

WDTV Live: http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1118/WDTV_Live_2.jpg
WDT Live SMP: http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u139222/wdtvlive-frontremote-big.jpg

I think the Plus came between the two?

Also, after thinking about your original question again, I think what you are watning to do is plug HDMI into the AVR, it plays the audio, and passes through the video to the the TV. I'm not sure if it would do that. I've used the WDTV by plugging it directly into the TV then optical out from the TV into the AVR. (I don't have an HDMI amp). But you want HDMI audio all the way I take it.

Another option would be a HDMI splitter, so you take one output to the TV and the other to the AVR.  If the AVR can ingore the video it'sgetting along with the audio.
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csimon

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2014, 10:12:59 am »

Also, after thinking about your original question again, I think what you are watning to do is plug HDMI into the AVR, it plays the audio, and passes through the video to the the TV. I'm not sure if it would do that.

Doh, not thinking straight, of course it would do it - that's what they do isn't it!  Or possibly use ARC if your TV and amp support it.
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kenterickson

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2014, 12:23:31 pm »

OK so now I'm on a quest to use my WDTV Live Plus with JRiver and JRemote.    I have WD selected as a zone in MC and the WD set to see my PC as a server under media players (It shows the computer as Kent PC HP (generic DLNA device)).   On JRemote I see the WDTV but it does not allow me to select it.   So right now I can view images from the PC using the WDTV and it's remote but I don't know if MC is involved in that and I cant seem to use JRemote to control what I see through the WD.   

Is this a setup issue?

As I said the WDTV Live Plus is a few years older than the current WDTV Live and it does have a different UI.
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csimon

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2014, 12:48:42 pm »

I have not seen that before, where JRemote will display a zone but not allow you to select it.  Can you ignore JRemote for a second and try it from MC itself - select the WDTV and play something to it.  If there is a problem you should get an error message.
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kenterickson

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2014, 01:01:35 pm »

You are right.  It does work.   Some kind of an operator error issue.   On JRemote the WD was selected but the little check circle wasn't filled in.   Playing with it further it seems that it works.   Now I can play with this setup and determine whether it works for me or I need to build up an HTPC.   

Thanks for the help.
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RoderickGI

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2014, 08:42:14 pm »

Doh, not thinking straight, of course it would do it - that's what they do isn't it!  Or possibly use ARC if your TV and amp support it.

Ha ha. I thought you had lost it for a while there. A real "Doh" moment.


My understanding (from the WD forum) is that the WD will not play HiRes audio.

The current model will Pass Through Dolby TrueHD (See http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-truehd.html) audio though, via HDMI, at 24/96. Maybe even 24/192 for 5.1 or stereo audio. The WDTV Live Plus may not, but it is worth trying. Make sure you have the latest firmware of course, since your model may have been updated from the original specification, which on looking does not support Dolby TrueHD. Your model does play FLAC though, although neither the Specification or User Manual specifies the Bit Depth or Sampling Frequency supported.

I think you have a few options and a ton of settings to try to get your WDTV Live Plus to act as your audio and video DLNA renderer or transport device.

With JRemote controlling MC on your PC, and the WDTV Live Plus doing its thing, I think you will have a good setup.  :)


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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

kenterickson

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2014, 09:02:58 am »

I do have a good setup now.   I am using the WDTV only to render video and images and I am streaming audio directly from MC to my receiver.   When I was first setting up my new speakers and receiver I used a Meridian server with analog outputs as a reference source or music and then compared it to the WD.   I found the music quality to be noticeably higher from the Meridian.    That could be ascribed to the quality of the DACs in the Meridian compared to the ones in my receiver, even though I think the Integra DTR 30.5 has pretty high quality DACs.    Then when I got MC working over a hardwired Ethernet line I found that the sound quality was better coming from the MC than from the WD going in to the receiver via HDMI.    I don't know what the explanation for that would be since I believe that in either case the receiver is just being presented with a bitstream and the audio quality should be determined by the DACs in the receiver.    I have always played flac files from the WD but I'm not sure what the WD does with the higher sample rate/higher bit depth materials and I know that JRiver can handle the high def formats.

In any event, for now I will use the WD to render video and images and the audio will come directly from the PC server.       
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RoderickGI

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2014, 11:05:10 pm »

I do have a good setup now.          

Yes, you are getting the best audio quality you can by using MC to send music directly to your receiver. What I meant was that by using MC as the audio manager and source, then sending it to the receiver via the WD Live without any audio manipulation at that point, using JRemote as the controller for MC, you would have a single path for all media and the best audio and video solution with the hardware you own, with a very convenient way to control it all. (Replacing the WDTV Live Plus with an Intel NUC would have the potential to give you better video, but that is a whole other discussion.) With that solution you wouldn't have to think about which device you send the media to, the WD or the receiver directly. You could just play whatever media you want and send it all to the WD. That, in my mind, is a better solution than changing zones based on the media format. I haven't played with zones really, so I don't know if the zone switching is automatic or manual. On that basis, I thought you had a good solution.

Just on the Meridian vs Integra vs WD plus Integra, I found your post on the WD Community earlier in the week. If all your FLAC files are rips from CDs, then all your audio is still CD audio quality at two-channel 16-bit depth PCM encoding at a 44.1 kHz sampling rate per channel. The FLAC files just aren't lossy like mp3s, and hence have higher bit rates, but are still 16/44.1. For example I ripped a CD to FLAC earlier in the week, and the audio files are still 16bit @ 44.1kHz, but rather than a bit rate of 128, 256, or even 320 that an mp3 might be ripped to, they are in the 440 to 780 kbps range, with most over 650 kbps. They produce an identical audio stream to playing a CD with no losses, but they are still just CD quality. Do you have any real 24/96 High Definition audio files to test the Integra with?

When you tested with the Meridian, you say some of the audio files were High Definition, so you could be comparing your memory of High Definition audio rendered on the Meridian versus CD quality audio rendered on he Integra, under your current configuration. Also if you used the Meridian with analog outputs (your WD Community post says you used a digital coaxial connection), that can add some colour to the sound, which may make it sound nicer. That is all in the ear of the listener.

Regardless of the difference between the Meridian and Integra, the WD is in a whole different and lower quality league. When you tested sending audio direct from MC to the Integra, vs via the WD, you say that in each case the Integra was receiving a bitstream from MC. Are you sure of that? In order for that to be the case, you would have had to set MC up to bitstream the audio, and set the WD to Pass Through that bitstream (is that the HDMI direct setting on the WD?) without any audio processing at all, leaving it to the Integra to decode and render the compressed PCM data from the FLAC file.

By my reading of the WDTV Live Plus manual, the best audio that the WDTV Live Plus can Pass Through is Dolby TrueHD. I couldn't find any mention that it can bitstream all formats, or FLAC specifically. It can, however, play FLAC from memory. So, my understanding of your MC to WD to Integra testing is that MC sent something, possibly a bitstream of the FLAC file, and if so the WD uncompressed and decoded the FLAC to a PCM stream. Involving the WD in the audio path in any way other than passing the data through to the Integra could reduce the audio quality.

If you were bitstreaming from MC through the WD to the Integra, then the Integra should have told you what format it was receiving. If either MC or the WD were processing the audio, the Integra would have just said it was receiving PCM (I think). It might also tell you the bit depth, sampling frequency, and bit rate as well.

I would be interested to know what you found if you set up MC to bitstream the audio from one of your FLAC files, and then see what the Integra said it got. Then try using MC Digital Signal Processing to improve the sound, perhaps by upmixing to 24bit/192kHz stereo, and see what the Integra receives. My receiver, which will be replaced at some time in the future, can only process up to 16bit/48kHz Dolby Digital AC-3, so I can't play much with DSP. There was a discussion on Interact recently about the choice between using Bitstreaming and MC DSP, with the weight of opinion falling on the side of MC DSP.

Anyway, all the above is why I said "I think you have a few options and a ton of settings to try to get your WDTV Live Plus to act as your audio and video DLNA renderer or transport device."  If I was you I would be fiddling for ages with MC DSP and the WDTV Live Plus settings to get the best out of the Integra, while still transporting everything through the WD. But that is just me.


By the way I am no expert, and I'm just writing all this as it helps me to learn more about audio formats, coding and how to get the best sound from the equipment I have. So please don't take any of this as a criticism. It is more an exploration.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

kenterickson

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 12:48:17 pm »

RoderickGI: First of all, I don't take any of this as criticism.  I really appreciate your insights and I think that we are all here to learn something and hopefully share something as well.   I am impressed with the fact that you caught my error in stating that we used analog outputs from the Meridian system.   It was indeed a very high quality digital cable.    So in both cases the analog conversion was done in the Integra.   That is why I am still somewhat mystified by the easily discernible difference in audio quality.   We did compare both 16 bit/44.1 kHz an and 24/96 and higher and I could hear the difference across the board.   Audio comparisons are tricky however.   They are subjective.  Sometimes we hear what we want or expect to hear.   And sometimes just slight differences in volume can make one source sound better than another.   So I'm not absolutely certain that I have made a definitive comparison but for now I'm sticking with the audio coming from the PC and the video coming through the WD.    It would be better and much easier to have it all go through the WD but I do have some high def (24/96) source material and will be acquiring more and I'm still not sure the WD can handle that.   

When I said bitstream I was using terminology that I am familiar with as a communications and digital design engineer rather than a specific audio or network engineering term so I may mean something different from what you are thinking I was just talking about what I think comes out of a codec and into a DAC.   And I didn't ever really compare sending audio from MC to the Integra to sending audio from MC through the WD to the Integra.   I only compared audio from the Meridian to the Intgra to audio from an HD attached to the WD to the Intgra and then finally audio from the MC directly to the Integra.   Maybe I should try bitstreaming from MC through the WD and see what that does.    If that were to be the same as MC to Integra then I would have a more integrated system.    Lots of variables and lots of combinations!

Not sure if the Integra will tell me what it is receiving and what the bit rate and depth are.   I need to look at that.   It would be good to know.

In any event, I think I am getting very close to pulling the trigger on building up a NUC to be a comprehensive solution.    But in the meantime I will keep experimenting.   This is all good stuff and kind of fun to learn about.   Thanks for all the help.
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RoderickGI

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Re: HDMI over Ethernet
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2014, 04:13:07 pm »

That is all excellent. Enjoy the journey!
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner
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