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[JimH]

Our friend, Chris Connaker, founder of Computer Audiophile, just published an interview he did with Neil Young last week at South by Southwest.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/572-pono-or-oh-no-interview-neil-young/

There is another thread here on the Pono service:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87973.0

[kstuart]

I wonder if CC is aware that "Bernard Shakey" is Neil's pseudonym ?

The details mentioned by "Bernard" would only be known by an insider, and there were only a few posts, as would indicate someone who was otherwise quite busy at the moment.

And Bernard's hdtracks comment would fit Neil's dry humor...

[JimH]

More on Pono in this thread at AVSForum.

Michael / Desertdome is our Mojave.  There's a picture of him showing JRiver.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1523882/northern-california-ht-meet-iii-sacramento-area#post_24548774

[Peter_T]

I'm all for better audio - that's why I use J River and have (almost) everything important in my collection in flac (mostly 44.1)... but I just can't get behind PONO. 

I was just about to buy-in on the kickstarter page when they posted the first testimonial video... it was a bunch of great musicians hanging out in Neil's car while he said, "this one's CD-quality, this one's MP3, this one's our new kick-ass PONO version."  Well that type of test just doesn't work, and the emotions driven by frustrations in the music industry and modern music distribution do so much to shape people's perception of music. 

I've done some extensive ABX testing with the best equipment I expect to own (decent but not insane) and I just can't hear the difference between 44.1 and 192.  As I listened I believed I could - with each trial I thought one track was brighter and more open - but the ABX test doesn't lie.  Turns out I didn't have a clue. 

Anyway, I'm kind of disappointed that I got turned off.  I wanted to get onboard - I love NY and the idea of better music - but I just can't.  Maybe I'll get over it at some point, who knows. 

[mojave]

Pono really isn't about the differences between 44.1 and 192. A lot of the new Pono music will be 24 bit 48 kHz. I think Pono is about the difference between the "studio master quality (digital) recordings" vs the released tracks. It isn't just a sample rate difference, but a content difference. Linn Records addresses What is a Studio Master? on their website. I listened to SACD, DVD-Audio, HDTracks downloads, high resolution needle drops, and Pono music this past weekend. The artists and songs weren't the same, but to me the Pono music sounded the best.

[6233638]

I'll wait and see how things pan out when it launches. If 90% of what they're selling is just the same masters as HDtracks, rather than guaranteeing a minimum standard of quality, then it's no different from every other HD music service so far.

[kstuart]

Pono really isn't about the differences between 44.1 and 192. A lot of the new Pono music will be 24 bit 48 kHz. I think Pono is about the difference between the "studio master quality (digital) recordings" vs the released tracks. It isn't just a sample rate difference, but a content difference. Linn Records addresses What is a Studio Master? on their website. I listened to SACD, DVD-Audio, HDTracks downloads, high resolution needle drops, and Pono music this past weekend. The artists and songs weren't the same, but to me the Pono music sounded the best.

Unfortunately, a "Studio Master" (with capital letters) is not a studio master.  It's marketing speak.

In a professional recording studio, audio goes through various different processes.  No particular tape or file represents any sort of ultimate anything.

MFSL succeeded in making a lot of people believe that there exists some sort of "Original Master" and if your LP or CD is not made from that, it is lacking in some way.

In actuality, mastering is much more complicated than that - otherwise anyone could do it.

For example, to this day, the best sounding version of "Close to the Edge" is the original CD mastered by Barry Diament made from an LP mastering copy tape made from the stereo mixdown tape.  All the recent attempts do not sound as good, partially because now the old tapes have lost magnetism (amongst other reasons).

So, there is no easy answer, no three times a day "Best Sound" pill you can take.

[Vocalpoint]

A lot of the new Pono music will be 24 bit 48 kHz.

Not sure where we are getting this "Pono Music" vibe as if Neil's company with have any say (or creation) of any actual content. There have been several confirmations that PonoMusic will be getting the exact same HD material as HDTracks and all the others get for the labels.

I cannot find any info anywhere saying the Neil is suddenly employing a team of engineers and requesting actual analog master tapes from the record companies to create "Pono" remasters. Unless I have missed something very obvious....

VP

[mojave]

Some of the discussion seems to be about remastering:

In mid-2011, Kallman invested with Young and helped assemble a Pono team that included representatives from audio giants Meridian and Dolby, according to insiders. Once WMG signed on, Kallman said that he and Young approached UMG CEO Lucian Grainge and Sony Music CEO Doug Morris about remastering their catalogs for Pono distribution.

Pono has already signed an agreement with Warner Music Group to remaster its catalogs for Pono distribution.

In some cases, these PonoMusic files have reportedly been remastered for this new format.

Young has said that Pono files will be artist-approved studio masters, and that implies different masters and possibly mixes than the CD, LP, or iTunes mixes.

[mojave]

Mark Waldrep's article on Back to the Studio Masters is also interesting in relation to this topic.

[Vocalpoint]

Some of the discussion seems to be about remastering:

And others - like this from John Hamm - CEO of Pono are not...

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/an-interview-with-neil-young-and-pono-ceo-john-hamm/

TAS: What file types and resolutions will PonoMusic sell?

JH: All of the music on PonoMusic.com will be in FLAC, because FLAC is a universal audio codec that can be used by anyone. But users won’t even need to know that it’s FLAC, they will just download it and load it on their portable music device [presumably the Pono]. Resolutions will stay true to what the label recorded. Whether the label records in 44/16, 96/24, or 192/24, we will sell that file in its original form.

While it would be nice to see if they can pull some strings and remaster some stuff - I do not think that even Neil Young has the ability to just call up Sony Music and request the original two track master of Thriller - just to be able to "Pono-ize" it. I am happy to be wrong here

It's just that Neil doesn't strike me as terribly organized given the oddball scattershot nature of this "Pono" roll-out.

VP

[JimH]

It's just that Neil doesn't strike me as terribly organized given the oddball scattershot nature of this "Pono" roll-out.

I wasn't impressed at first, either, but John Hamm seems to have brought a lot of discipline and expertise to Pono.  The Kickstarter campaign has raised $5 Million so far. 

[mojave]

Resolutions will stay true to what the label recorded. Whether the label records in 44/16, 96/24, or 192/24, we will sell that file in its original form

Yes, he has emphasized that they won't be upsampling anything from digital masters and will only release the original sample rate. To do anything else would be disingenuous. In other words, they don't want try to use a higher sample rate to represent quality.

[astromo]

Chris Connaker from CA asked Neil Young about the subject of mastering if I recall correctly.

I believe Neil avoided the subject of remastering and loudness and pushed the point of Pono being a clear conduit. I'll give him points for respecting other musicians or if that's a stretch, samplers, who dubstep their sound with serious compression. I think Neil's view is, if that's their way of expressing their "music" then Pono will pass it on - untouched.

[astromo]

My recollection:

Chris Connaker from CA asked Neil Young about the subject of mastering if I recall correctly.

I believe Neil avoided the subject of remastering and loudness and pushed the point of Pono being a clear conduit. I'll give him points for respecting other musicians or if that's a stretch, samplers, who dubstep their sound with serious compression. I think Neil's view is, if that's their way of expressing their "music" then Pono will pass it on - untouched.

Quote from the interview:

CC: Will Pono have an effect on the Loudness Wars or encourage less dynamic range compression.

NY: (Long pause) Well, I don't know. It could. To me dynamic range is king. The music decides how compressed it is. If you make a mix and you make the mix, not mastering, in the mix, that's where you do the compression. You compress certain instruments as an effect. That's really all you want. You want that nuts to pump so that's what you compress. Why compress what comes and goes? You don't have to make that decision in mastering. The artist can make the decision. If they want something that pumps and grooves all the way through like ah, what the hell is the name, it's a great great band, two guys, two guys (The Black Keys -CC), Yeah, they are great. They use a lot of compression in their mixing. They record at like 48. I've noticed what they do. They'll have more to play with. They can still have that sound and have it be a 192 master with just like one area of the song, maybe the hook, or one instrument be 192, just f**king, what the hell is that! The mix is made up of these two things (sample rates). You get source stuff that is 48k, it's not going to be higher than 48k unless you put acoustic echo on it and that echo will be at 192k. Using resolution as an effect is one of the offshoots of Pono. That's one of the creative tools that people like the Black Keys, Kanye West, Eminem, Jay Z, LIl' Wayne, can use. They are very creative, let them go, let them have whatever they want we just give them more.

[6233638]

I wasn't impressed at first, either, but John Hamm seems to have brought a lot of discipline and expertise to Pono.  The Kickstarter campaign has raised $5 Million so far.

Are JRiver involved on the software side of things? There's been some speculation that you'll be writing the desktop app.

[JimH]

I don't know.

[glynor]

I don't know.

That's the greatest non-answer answer I've seen in a while.

Usually, they're written so full of corporate buzzword mumbojumbo that you can't really tell that they aren't saying anything.  This one is...  Well, more you, Jim, I suppose.

Nice.  Gave me a good laugh.

[JimH]

I do know now, and the answer is yes.

[JimH]

That's the greatest non-answer answer I've seen in a while.

Usually, they're written so full of corporate buzzword mumbojumbo that you can't really tell that they aren't saying anything.  This one is... 

I've always admired how Donald Rumsfeld could turn a phrase.

[glynor]

I do know now, and the answer is yes.

 

[mojave]

Congratulations!

[InflatableMouse]

Nice! Congrats!

[jmone]

Well done to the crew at JRiver and to Desert Dome

[jkauff]

I do know now, and the answer is yes.

But will it be available in yellow?   

[MrC]

Engadget interview:

    http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/07/neil-young-on-pono-interview/

[Peter_T]

I do know now, and the answer is yes.

Wow!  Cool!

[fitbrit]

I do know now, and the answer is yes.

Congratulations!

[Awesome Donkey]

Congrats! JRiver + PonoMusic = Winner winner rubberduckie dinner!

[imugli]

Very Cool! Congrats to you guys! Well deserved.

[Samson]

NY said
 

No. Pono is Pono. You make what you make. When we say it's Pono that means we are bringing you the closest thing to the master, if it's not the master, if it's not the native resolution it's the closet thing to it that was mastered.

As much as  i want to believe something great will come from this I can't help but suspect this will be no better than the music quality already coming from the high rez sites. The difference is no deception about pushing poorly recorded, bad sounding low res stuff and selling it as highly resolved bad sounding stuff, but marketing it as better sound.

It seems to be implied however that getting closer to the master tapes will automatically make for a sonic improvement. I guess it depends on what is meant by the master.Whether it means the original mixed tapes (if they are available and in what condition) or the EQed copy of the final master tape, complete with editing,levelling, compression and equalization. I suppose the latter is at least faithful to the artists intention (or maybe the engineer's) but arguably degrading the SQ. If you could get the original mixed tapes and genuinely remaster them without compression or excessive eq, then wow, but this would seem massively unlikely. Either way, if recorded badly in the first place, it will still sound like crap.

The hope is for the future with clever engineers like Barry Diament and recordings faithfull to the original sound, and in high rez. Mind you, I kinda like the sound of closely miked instruments played back on a high end system even if its more like a performance sounding like a recording rather than a recording sounding like a performance as Barry advocates.