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[Otello]

Well, I'm very happy with quality of the DSD output encoding;
for the record I use JRiver for my conferences about hi-end computer music, this photo was made last Saturday at the European presentation of the new Nagra DAC and it was a great success, and I'd say a very good promotion for JRiver, too...


Anyway, back to topic: the quality of 2xDSD for CD quality files is superior to no encoding (PCM), but with 192/24 files I (and 100% of listeners at this presentation) prefere the original PCM; (BTW, there are good technical reasons for this); so - assuming I'm not missing something and this feature exists, yet   - I'd really appreciate the option of choosing DSD encoding for 44.1 KHz files and no encoding for higher sample rates...
Any chance to have this feature in one of the next releases?

Thanks
Marco

[JimH]

You might take a look at the DSP Studio's Output Settings.

Thanks for the picture and for showing MC.  Have you tried Theater View for your demos?  It would be readable from a distance.

[6233638]

I think the only way to do this right now would be to set up separate zones - one with DSD Encoding enabled, and one which outputs PCM. You could then use a Zone Switch rule based on the sample rate of the files.
This would work fine if you are playing single tracks/albums for demos, but would not allow you to have a single seamless playlist that switches between the two depending on the track. (each zone has its own separate now playing list)


Having Media Center automatically switch to/from DSD with the Output Formats DSP function might be challenging - I'm not sure how you design a UI for that without making things quite complicated.
The only thing I can come up with, is if the Dolby Digital encoder has a fixed sample rate (I have no idea) you could theoretically merge the Encoding and Sample Rate options together - but I don't know if that's the case.
 
And if you're thinking of changing the Output Format options in that way, moving to a rule-based system might be better. (but would require a lot more work)
Then you could have rules such as outputting PCM if the file is 2 channel, but using the Dolby Digital encoder if it's multichannel etc.

[Otello]

Dear Jim, I did take more than one look at DSP settings...
I know I can choose to code or not to code, but I haven't found a way to output in DSD at 44.1 KHz and with no encoding at higher sample rates...
I'm almost sure you misunderstood what I asked for. ;-)

P.S. No, I don't use theatre view, usually my computer is headless and remote controlled by iPad; in this case we had to connect  monitor & keyboard at the last minute because the router didn't work, so no iPad control 

[Otello]

Having Media Center automatically switch to/from DSD with the Output Formats DSP function might be challenging - I'm not sure how you design a UI for that without making things quite complicated.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the challenge: JRiver do this yet, if you set no encoding and DSD bitstreaming: it output in PCM for multibit files and in DSD for SACD ones...

[6233638]

I'm sorry, but I don't see the challenge: JRiver do this yet, if you set no encoding and DSD bitstreaming: it output in PCM for multibit files and in DSD for SACD ones...

I'm suggesting that designing a good UI for it would be challenging, not the functionality itself.
 
The "simplest" solution I can think of would be to add several more options to the "Sample Rate" list and remove the Output Encoding option altogether:

• Dolby Digital - 44.1 kHz
• Dolby Digital - 48 kHz
• 1x DoP
• 2x DoP
• 2x DSD

 
But that's an ugly solution, and if you're making changes like that, why not go all the way and change the Output Format options to being rule-based?
Then you could have a rule to only bitstream Stereo DSD tracks and not Multichannel ones, or to only use Dolby Digital encoding when there are more than two channels for example.

[mwillems]

I think the only way to do this right now would be to set up separate zones - one with DSD Encoding enabled, and one which outputs PCM. You could then use a Zone Switch rule based on the sample rate of the files.

Otello- If you haven't tried it, I would suggest that you try the zoneswitch functionality already present in JRiver (that 6233638 mentioned above). It has limitations, but I think it will do 90% of what you want, and it's in the program already (it will switch from DSD to PCM or vice versa based on sample rate, except in mixed sample rate playlists).  

If you are playing individual tracks or albums (as opposed to playlists that have tracks with different sample rates), it should do exactly what you want.

[mojave]

A less convenient method is to use the Convert Audio tool in JRiver to convert all files with lower sample rates to DSD. Make sure in the Convert Audio options that you set the Mode to "leave original . . ."

[Otello]

I'm suggesting that designing a good UI for it would be challenging, not the functionality itself.
 
The "simplest" solution I can think of would be to add several more options to the "Sample Rate" list and remove the Output Encoding option altogether:

• Dolby Digital - 44.1 kHz
• Dolby Digital - 48 kHz
• 1x DoP
• 2x DoP
• 2x DSD

 
But that's an ugly solution, and if you're making changes like that, why not go all the way and change the Output Format options to being rule-based?
Then you could have a rule to only bitstream Stereo DSD tracks and not Multichannel ones, or to only use Dolby Digital encoding when there are more than two channels for example.

No sorry, it cant work for me: I'm NOT using multichannel files; I'm speaking about stereo only; (BTW I couldn't care less about Dolby Digital  ;) )

I agree with you that adding more options to the sample rate list  is not very nice, but, hey! you have 9 options now, what's the problem in adding 2 or 3? (Again: I did NOT ask to have DD in this list.)

[6233638]

No sorry, it cant work for me: I'm NOT using multichannel files; I'm speaking about stereo only; (BTW I couldn't care less about Dolby Digital   )

I agree with you that adding more options to the sample rate list  is not very nice, but, hey! you have 9 options now, what's the problem in adding 2 or 3? (Again: I did NOT ask to have DD in this list.)

Yes, but if you are changing the UI, it cannot simply account for your use-case, it has to account for everything.
Even though it's an ugly solution, I do think that simply moving the options from Output Encoding to the "Sample rate" list would work - and it might actually benefit other uses too.
I can't think of any negatives to making that change, other than making the list of options even bigger than it is now, and having to be careful that making the change does not break people's existing configuration.
 
I don't know how that would work internally though. What looks to be a relatively simple change may not be, and it also assumes that it's a change the JRiver team wants to make.

[Hendrik]

That sounds like an ugly hack that just over-complicates the dialog. Most normal users don't want different output for different sample rates.

The solution right now is Zone Switch, even if its not a 100% solution right now. Its doubtful there is going to be any cheap hacks to allow this.
If you're running a demo, you can also just convert the files beforehand to get the desired effect.

[Otello]

Otello- If you haven't tried it, I would suggest that you try the zoneswitch functionality already present in JRiver (that 6233638 mentioned above). It has limitations, but I think it will do 90% of what you want, and it's in the program already (it will switch from DSD to PCM or vice versa based on sample rate, except in mixed sample rate playlists).  

If you are playing individual tracks or albums (as opposed to playlists that have tracks with different sample rates), it should do exactly what you want.

Well, I never used zoneswitch, but, according to what you say, maybe it might work at home, as I rarely use playlists, but it is completely useless for public demostrations; in this case you do need playlists with mixed sample rate files; asking me to use no playlists it's like asking to make a presentation without PowerPoint but manually loading photos!  

[mwillems]

Well, I never used zoneswitch, but, according to what you say, maybe it might work at home, as I rarely use playlists, but it is completely useless for public demostrations; in this case you do need playlists with mixed sample rate files; asking me to use no playlists it's like asking to make a presentation without PowerPoint but manually loading photos!  

It would potentially even work with mixed playlists if you stopped and restarted playback in between tracks.  Try it and see what you think.  I know it's not ideal, but it's something you can do with the software "as is," and it's definitely better than no automatic switching at all   

[Otello]

Yes, but if you are changing the UI, it cannot simply account for your use-case, it has to account for everything.

Ah OK, is it the point? A feature just for me? ?

No Sir, I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong on this.

Well, Audiophiles read magazines, magazines are written by columnists (like me and many others 'round the world), and usually want the best sound quality; I'd say that some of them would kill for a slightly better sound.
FYI, in my next review I'll write that 44.1 KHz files sound MUCH better if converted in DSD but higher resolution files play better in stright PCM.
I'll write this because it's the truth, it's my duty; and I'd assume all my collegues will do the same, because the difference is evident, everybody can ear it.

[6233638]

That sounds like an ugly hack that just over-complicates the dialog. Most normal users don't want different output for different sample rates.

Yes, I agree.

If you're running a demo, you can also just convert the files beforehand to get the desired effect.

That does seem like the best solution if this is a pre-planned demo.

Ah OK, is it the point? A feature just for me? ?
No Sir, I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong on this.

My point was that if the UI were to be changed to remove the Output Encoding options, and move them into the "Sample rate" list, then you could not only include the DSD options, as some people need the Dolby Digital encoding options too.

I think most people are satisfied to either convert everything to DSD, or leave everything in its native format though - I have not seen anyone else request this functionality.
And if you do want that functionality - other than putting on a demo - what are the chances that you will be using it with a mixed playlist, rather than simply playing back full albums? Zone switch covers that.

[Otello]

OK, I give up, I'm obviously wasting my time.

[JimH]

You've asked for help.  You've received good advice from some very knowledgeable people.  They suggested that you try zoneswitch.  I don't think you did, but I do think you owe them that courtesy.

[Otello]

I'ìm sorry Jim,
but I didn't ask for help, but for a new feature.
I didn't get a solution but an unusable workaround:
I'll never suggest my reader a method not working with playlists.

[6233638]

I'll never suggest my reader a method not working with playlists.

It works with playlists, it just won't work with mixed playlists containing 44.1kHz audio (sent to one zone) and 48-192kHz (sent to another, depending on your rules)

[Otello]

OK Mr 6233638: it won't work with mixed playlists, so it doesn't work; period.

[6233638]

OK Mr 6233638: it won't work with mixed playlists, so it doesn't work; period.

How many people are using mixed playlists and are concerned about mixing DSD Encoding with high sample-rate PCM?
I would think that people concerned about this are likely to be playing back albums rather than playlists of mixed tracks.
1xDSD should be suitable up to 48kHz and 2xDSD should be suitable up to 96kHz - though most people would be happy to use 1xDSD with everything if they want to use DSD Encoding.

When using a mixed playlist (e.g. Play Doctor) I convert everything to 192kHz to avoid the DAC switching between tracks, which slows things down and can introduce pops & clicks during the switch with some devices.

[Otello]

Well, dear 6233638, I'd say ALL the audiophiles (owning a DSD capable DAC, of course   ) would use this configuration, as soon as they'll know 44.1 KHz files play better if converted in DSD, while higher resolution files play better unconverted.

And sorry again, but a configuration must work always, otherwise you cannot suggest it, moreover to audiophiles, that rarely are computer nerds, too.
Believe me: I'd make a very bad service to JRiver suggesting to my readers the zone solution if it is not going to work in certain circumstances.

[6233638]

Well, dear 6233638, I'd say ALL the audiophiles (owning a DSD capable DAC, of course   ) would use this configuration, as soon as they'll know 44.1 KHz files play better if converted in DSD, while higher resolution files play better unconverted.

Well I don't find that to be true with my DAC - I find that the results are better sending it the native file unconverted.

And sorry again, but a configuration must work always, otherwise you cannot suggest it, moreover to audiophiles, that rarely are computer nerds, too.
Believe me: I'd make a very bad service to JRiver suggesting to my readers the zone solution if it is not going to work in certain circumstances.

Simply enabling DSD Encoding, or using Zone Switch will work in most situations.
 
Wanting to switch DSD Encoding on or off based on the source sample rate is the uncommon requirement.

[mojave]

Hi Marco,

Are you Marco Cicogna? I saw the Magico S5 and Q7 review in last year's AUDIOReview. I had to translate it from Italian using Google translate which made it a little hard to read. I happen to have two Italian cars, but neither is running right now. I have a 1976 Fiat 128 and 1986 Alfa Romeo Spider.

I think you have a great feature suggestion. Since you are recommending some settings to others it would probably be best to have this option. It is similar to the sample rate option to handle various sample rates. How does the sample rate conversion to 352.8 kHz compare to DSD encoding? In other words, does 44.1 PCM converted to 352.8 PCM sound the same as 44.1 PCM converted to DSD?

Sometimes suggestions take a while to be implemented. In the meantime, we users are always trying to come up with ways to help others.

Is this you giving the presentation?

[Otello]

Hi mojave,

no, I'm Marco Benedetti and I'm the one with the bow tie  in the photo in the first message, 
but my friend Marco Cicogna (the one in your photo) was at this Nagra presentation, too: Cicogna took care of the music selection, I presented the hardware.

About your question, IMHO 44.1 converted in DSD plays slightly better then upsampled at 352.8 kHz (otherwise I'd have no reason to request this feature  ).
I have to say at the beginning I was really surprised, as converting in DSD we have one more step before reproduction, but obviously the anti-alias filter makes bigger damages with 44.1 files. (Again: this is why I'm asking for this feature, as at higher sample rates the anti-alias filter makes much less damages, so it's better to not convert in DSD).

BTW, I knew 44.1 converted in DSD is much better since few mounts, but the DSD capable DACs I tested in this period were all cheap models, so I thought it was just a question of cheap DA converters (as you probably know,  converting DSD is much simpler), but after listening to the new Nagra, which is going to cost 20K Euro (!!!), and not only me and Cicogna, but 100% of listeners, too, agreed DSD was much better...

[Hendrik]

I can't help but wonder, if the audio is so much better, why doesn't a DAC that costs 20k € provide a feature to do this "improvement"?

Jim, we should charge more!

[glynor]

Moved forum weirdness talk here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88351.0