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[pcstockton]

if it only had optical output (seemingly all devices like this have one) I would be all over one of these.  Without a second thought.

But I dont have a USB DAC so....

Maybe Ver. 2

Thanks,
Patrick

[pcstockton]

how difficult would it be to have a combo mini-jack/spdif like on almost everything else in this class?

-Patrick

[JimH]

We're probably not going to change the hardware any time soon.  It may not be right for everyone. 

You might consider a USB DAC like the Dragonfly.  We may sell them sometime soon.  They're $149.

[mojave]

how difficult would it be to have a combo mini-jack/spdif like on almost everything else in this class?

-Patrick

JRiver isn't creating the hardware. They are using the Intel NUC and you get what it comes with. You can buy a USB to SPDIF adapter for under $30. I have a Tascam US-366 which is completely USB powered. It recently sold for $98 after a Tascam rebate and includes optical and coax SPDIF, AES, Balanced 1/4" TRS, and unbalanced RCA. You can set it on a NUC and use it as a DAC (with 4 channels of output) or just a USB to SPDIF/AES converter for another DAC.

[pcstockton]

Yeah obviously.... i do that now with a Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 and my HTPC.  I am not swapping out my HTPC for the ID just to add a convertor to it.

I guess this just isn't for me.  Ill just have to continue on with what I have.

Thanks!
Patrick

[6233638]

I never understood why Apple are one of the only companies using those combined 3.5mm analog/toslink ports.
I don't think I've seen any PC hardware other than theirs which uses them.

[mwillems]

I never understood why Apple are one of the only companies using those combined 3.5mm analog/toslink ports.
I don't think I've seen any PC hardware other than theirs which uses them.

Toshiba does them too (or at least did them for a while).  I have a three year old Toshiba laptop with a combo analog/SPDIF output.  But you're right, they're not very common on PCs, I think because PCs increasingly lack video-only outputs (vga/dvi).  When HDMI is the default video output an extra digital audio-only output is less necessary than it used to be.

Almost all consumer receivers will take an HDMI audio input, and some will even take USB these days. The only market segment (that I'm aware of) where devices with exclusive SPDIF inputs are still common is high-end audiophile DACs, and even that market is changing (USB and HDMI are more widely supported sources, and high-end DAC makers are noticing).

[csimon]

The Compulab Intense PC/Fit PC series (I have one) has combined 3.5mm analogue/SPDIF sockets for bpth input and output, although electrical not optical.

[Hendrik]

When HDMI is the default video output an extra digital audio-only output is less necessary than it used to be.

I still see optical toslink ports on practically all recent "full" PCs, sometimes this port is even optical/electrical combined, its just those combined ports with 3.5mm analog that are practically non-existent.

[JimH]

Almost all consumer receivers will take an HDMI audio input, and some will even take USB these days. The only market segment (that I'm aware of) where devices with exclusive SPDIF inputs are still common is high-end audiophile DACs, and even that market is changing (USB and HDMI are more widely supported sources, and high-end DAC makers are noticing).

This is also my observation.

[pcstockton]

Many of us have 2 channel hifi without an HDMI port to be found anywhere.  A receiver is for TV/Video in my world.  Not music.

[pcstockton]

We're probably not going to change the hardware any time soon.  It may not be right for everyone. 

You might consider a USB DAC like the Dragonfly.  We may sell them sometime soon.  They're $149.

Haha, No thanks.

[theoctavist]

Dragonfly is great actually.  I'd bet a great deal on it being indistinguishable from "audiophile" dacs.

[pcstockton]

Yes, I am sure it is great for a $150 DAC.  I already have a very fine DAC though.

[afalout]

This is also my observation.

Well... I see at http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id that :

"Multichannel and DSD are supported over HDMI."

I was not aware of HDMI PC video card/driver that supports DSD stream... can you confirm that this is indeed the case with ld?

For example, if I play a DSD file or SACD ISO on ld, will my Onkyo 5010 show a "DSD" or "PCM" on it's display?

Thanks,
Andrej

[eddyshere]

Well... I see at http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id that :

"Multichannel and DSD are supported over HDMI."

I was not aware of HDMI PC video card/driver that supports DSD stream... can you confirm that this is indeed the case with ld?

For example, if I play a DSD file or SACD ISO on ld, will my Onkyo 5010 show a "DSD" or "PCM" on it's display?

Thanks,
Andrej

I have the same question...

[6233638]

Multichannel PCM will be supported over HDMI.
The NUC is almost certainly not fast enough for multichannel DSD, and no PC supports DSD bitstreaming over HDMI as far as I am aware.

[eddyshere]

that's what I thought..I'll keep it in its box then...I haven't unboxed my ID so far as when I bought it I thought video was already supported . My other JC HTPC works flawlessly. I thought that maybe with a linux OS a moded intel hdmi audio driver would be the "ID surprise"

[afalout]

Multichannel PCM will be supported over HDMI.
The NUC is almost certainly not fast enough for multichannel DSD, and no PC supports DSD bitstreaming over HDMI as far as I am aware.

From your response, it seems that the statement on the wiki is incorrect then?

 http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id :
"Multichannel and DSD are supported over HDMI."

As I can play multichannel DSD, and DST on 4 years old Atom CPU based motherboard using MPD (granted, with around 95% CPU utilization, mostly due to the decompression), I can assure you that NUC is more then fast enough for it.

I am not sure how did the common misconception that a "PC" needs to somehow specifically support "DSD bitstreaming over HDMI", but this is not the case.

DSD is explicitly part of IEC 61937 specification, and, for the hardware part, any PC HDMI device and it's driver (a video card with HDMI) that support ANY of the IEC 61937 formats transmission, will support DSD transmission. Which is all of them.

For the audio framework part, in case of Windows, see "Representing Formats for IEC 61937 Transmissions":
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd316761%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Which explicitly states the following:
"Microsoft-provided HD Audio class driver supports PCM, AC3, DTS, AAC, Dolby Digital Plus, WMA Pro, MAT(MLP) formats. The GUIDs for the compressed audio formats that are not supported by the HD audio class driver and can be implemented by third-party solutions are listed in the following table."

Which lists:
KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_ONE_BIT_AUDIO and KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_DST

Eg. any application ("third-party solution") that can be bothered to set parameters documented on that page, can stream DSD/DST to HDMI device, in exactly the same way it streams any other IEC61937 bitstream.

On Linux, situation is similar: Alsa "HDMI already supports IEC modes when you can send AC3, DTS, etc payloads without decoding. All you need to do is packetize the data in userspace and send the result over the HDMI PCM device (and set some control bits to help the receiver lock faster)." (Quote from Alsa DEV mailing list)

Which is what I expected was happening, when I saw the statement "Multichannel and DSD are supported over HDMI.".

Thanks,
Andrej Falout

[csimon]

"Microsoft-provided HD Audio class driver supports PCM, AC3, DTS, AAC, Dolby Digital Plus, WMA Pro, MAT(MLP) formats.

In the response I got at http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92109.0, AAC cannot be bitstreamed over HDMI.  ?

[afalout]

Multichannel PCM will be supported over HDMI.
The NUC is almost certainly not fast enough for multichannel DSD, and no PC supports DSD bitstreaming over HDMI as far as I am aware.

And still, the statement is on the page at http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id

"Multichannel and DSD are supported over HDMI. "

As nobody cared to comment on my follow-up, do you at least plan to remove this statement, for which you say is incorrect? It will continue misleading buyers...

(BTW, if you enable DSD bitstreaming in MC, you can HEAR the DSD coming trough HDMI - yes, hear (1) .... quiet and under a lot of noise, but you can recognise the music playing. Its just that AVR thinks it's PCM, because required bits where not set for it to be recognised as DSD... as described in the link I provided... such a shame, really. Opportunity missed. )

(1) DSD uses a technique called sigma-delta modulation stream, which can be converted back to analogue by passing it through a (relatively) primitive analogue low-pass filter. Any presence of any circuit that incorporates low-pass filter, or even exhibits low-pass filtering as a side-effect, will turn DSD digital stream into audible sound, to one degree or another, with more or less noise.

Thanks,
 Andrej