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[KingSparta]

I bought a small cheap tablet ASUS with windows 8.1

I installed MC on it, and I have all my music on a 128 gig flash drive

the problem is it is hard to navigate and grabbing the scroll bar

any tips?

[BryanC]

Obsidian Touch theme in theater view?

[KingSparta]

I don't use theater mode, I prefer lists.

I was trying to use a stylist but it is hard to grab the scroll bar due to it is not wide enough (both in list and theater view).

it would be nice if they could be widened, not sure if I can magnify MC or not.

I did figure out this laptop mouse pad, so I guess that's ok.

[BryanC]

I don't use theater mode, I prefer lists.

I was trying to use a stylist but it is hard to grab the scroll bar due to it is not wide enough (both in list and theater view).

it would be nice if they could be widened, not sure if I can magnify MC or not.

I did figure out this laptop mouse pad, so I guess that's ok.

Oh, well then:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84084.0

[KingSparta]

I will try that today

[KingSparta]

well that really don't work, because it does not make the scroll bar wider, but like I said I have a work around from using the stylist to using the built in mouse pad.

[6233638]

Especially with Windows 10 on the way, how inexpensive x86 tablets are becoming with the new Intel CPUs, and most new notebooks having touch support, I would love to see some focus on supporting touch inputs in Standard View.
 
Unfortunately Jim bought a Surface a few years ago and hated it, so I'm not expecting to see any improvements in this area any time soon - which is a shame, as that new Surface 3 looks great.

[csimon]

Possibly because he was using applications that have not been designed with a touch interface in mind. Catch 22.

[glynor]

Unfortunately Jim bought a Surface a few years ago and hated it, so I'm not expecting to see any improvements in this area any time soon - which is a shame, as that new Surface 3 looks great.

I don't think that's why. Windows-based touchscreen devices did not set the world on fire, and largely failed in the market (at least in the way Microsoft was "promising" at the outset). Maybe next time, but for a small company with limited development resources, a wait and see attitude is probably best.

If they'd poured huge resources into re-writing a WinRT version of the application from scratch for the Windows 8 launch, it would have been a massive drain on resources that would have lead to... Nothing.

Either way, I use MC on a touchscreen device regularly at work.  I'm not entirely sure what the issue is.

[Listener]

I don't think that's why. Windows-based touchscreen devices did not set the world on fire, and largely failed in the market (at least in the way Microsoft was "promising" at the outset). Maybe next time, but for a small company with limited development resources, a wait and see attitude is probably best.

If they'd poured huge resources into re-writing a WinRT version of the application from scratch for the Windows 8 launch, it would have been a massive drain on resources that would have lead to... Nothing.

Either way, I use MC on a touchscreen device regularly at work.  I'm not entirely sure what the issue is.

I agree with KingSparta and 6223638.  I want to use my preferred Panes views on a light device with no keyboard.  (The same views that I use now with some adjustments for a smaller screen.) I want to use normal tablet gestures like swipes rather than clicking/dragging scroll bars.

I don't see that WinRT is relevant any longer.  Windows tablets and laptops with Intel x86 processors and touch screens are common and rather cheap now.  The current generation Surface devices are Intel based and run regular Windows.

I think that some effort making panes and other standard mode views work well with touch input on a device with 13" or smaller screen would be a reasonable goal.  It would provide (most of) the full functionality of the MC interface on a device that is convenient to use as an easy chair remote.  No keyboard, no mouse and reasonably light weight aqre my requirements.  I think the amount of development work would be acceptable for the benefit.

I might want the ability to design and use panes-like views on a tablet with JRemote or an equivalent.  However, I think that it is less likely to get that done than to get touch screen support for standard mode in a normal Windows OS environment.  Windows based tablets and touch screen enabled laptop/convertibles aren't competitive as general purpose tablets but as a device for controlling MC on another computer, they look rather attractive to me.

[6233638]

I don't think that's why. Windows-based touchscreen devices did not set the world on fire, and largely failed in the market (at least in the way Microsoft was "promising" at the outset). Maybe next time, but for a small company with limited development resources, a wait and see attitude is probably best.

If they'd poured huge resources into re-writing a WinRT version of the application from scratch for the Windows 8 launch, it would have been a massive drain on resources that would have lead to... Nothing.

I'm not sure that's true. Yes, I agree that it would not have made much sense to port the entire program over to WinRT. It always seemed as though the future for Windows tablets would be x86 devices once the technology got there, with ARM just being the best option at the time, and it seems that Intel has finally got their low-power CPUs to the point that they are inexpensive enough yet still powerful enough that it makes sense now.
 
Though Windows 10 now makes running "Metro" apps a much better experience on the desktop now, so it's not like development would have been entirely wasted if they had worked on that - especially if it had been something more akin to a Metro Theater View client or Gizmo/JRemote equivalent. After all, isn't one of the goals of Windows 10 to have your Metro apps run on every device? Desktop machines, notebooks, tablets, phones, and even the Xbox. Having a Theater View client or JRemote/Gizmo running as an Xbox app seems like it would be a big deal.
 
But I really think a lot of it has to do with your own circle of friends and family. If they aren't buying Apple, just about everything except the very lowest-end systems includes a touchscreen now. I'm seeing a lot more people with touch-enabled notebooks these days, and people specifically avoiding Apple because they don't offer a touchscreen.
 
Depending on what the quality of the screen is like on that Surface 3 (mainly whether it has full sRGB coverage) there's a very good chance that I'll be buying at least one of them to replace an iPad here - because they're now competitive on price, but offer a huge amount of flexibility. For a long time I've been wanting a tablet which lets me stream Blu-ray to it without any forced re-encoding or scaling, and it looks like this might finally be the one.

[glynor]

I don't see that WinRT is relevant any longer.  Windows tablets and laptops with Intel x86 processors and touch screens are common and rather cheap now.  The current generation Surface devices are Intel based and run regular Windows.

I know. But Microsoft is still being cagy about even Windows 10.  I think they intend to "split it" and run the phone version of the OS on future iPad-like tablets, which brings you back around to the WinRT thing.  In any case, my point was that had they listened to Microsoft (this most recent time they said "Windows tablets are going to be huge this year") they'd have dumped a bunch of resources down a hole.

I don't think building against a possibly-fictional future where Microsoft finally makes some progress in mobile is an option for them.  Build it and they will come.

I think that some effort making panes and other standard mode views work well with touch input on a device with 13" or smaller screen would be a reasonable goal.  It would provide (most of) the full functionality of the MC interface on a device that is convenient to use as an easy chair remote.  No keyboard, no mouse and reasonably light weight aqre my requirements.  I think the amount of development work would be acceptable for the benefit.

I totally agree here.  Modest improvements to make the current system work with available x86 touchscreen are absolutely worthwhile.  But the problem there is that there is no "one touchscreen" target.

I'm surprised he can't use it with what it has now.  As I said, I use MC with a touchscreen sometimes, and I haven't hit many problems as long as I increase the size control by a good margin (or pull out a stylus).  Standard View is (or was last I tried) completely usable on my work's test Surface Pro 2.  I'll try it again during the week if I have a minute.

But my available systems are probably wildly different, which is the problem.  In any case, I don't understand the problem.  Generalized "it should be better for touch" requests aren't going to go anywhere.  To gain traction, they'll need much more specifics (I have device X and it has problem B and solution Y would also apply to this whole range of devices that people actually own).

[csimon]

Modest improvements to make the current system work with available x86 touchscreen are absolutely worthwhile.  But the problem there is that there is no "one touchscreen" target.

I'm surprised he can't use it with what it has now.  As I said, I use MC with a touchscreen sometimes, and I haven't hit many problems as long as I increase the size control by a good margin (or pull out a stylus).  Standard View is (or was last I tried) completely usable on my work's test Surface Pro 2.  I'll try it again during the week if I have a minute.

I think there are two different cases here.  One is to use Standard View with a touch device, and the other is using Theater View on a touch device. The former equates to any other Windows desktop application and IMO is a waste of time trying to make it work with touch. It's desktop windows, full stop, designed for use with a keyboard and mouse, and scroll bars and small window gadgets, and combo-boxes etc.  Panes View is an anomaly though, as it's almost-but-not-quite a Theater View-like or tablet remote interface. Perhaps this is what people want from a touch-enabled Standard View, in which case the same considerations apply as to Theater View...

Theater View was designed as a combined keyboard/mouse and remote control interface, with a "nice" graphical front-end for use as a 10' interface., With touch screens on PCs now commonplace, it can also be a nice front-end on desktop PCs, laptops and tablets too. But it doesn't work well with touch.

But my available systems are probably wildly different, which is the problem.  In any case, I don't understand the problem.  Generalized "it should be better for touch" requests aren't going to go anywhere.  To gain traction, they'll need much more specifics (I have device X and it has problem B and solution Y would also apply to this whole range of devices that people actually own).

Generally, any operations that are well established conventions now on tablets (whether iOS or Android) should be possible in Theater View. We could try and list all the gestures and operations...but developers should be familiar enough with tablet operating systems and their touch screens to be able to work out what they do that is not possible or is different /awkward with Theater View on a touch device.

In any event, here are some past posts of mine that described particular issues:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77974.msg529750;topicseen#msg529750 from February 2013 - even then forecasting the rise of the Windows tablet and the possibilities for living room remote control withe Theater View on it!

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74420.msg539108;topicseen#msg539108 from March 2013

PS Metro isn't going away. It's the half-baked Windows RT and clumsy integration of Metro with desktop that no-one liked and most people predicted was a bad move. Whether Theater View develops into a Metro app or simply as a touch-enabled Windows app...if it had developed in either techonolgy 2 years ago it would still be relavnt now and into the future.

[6233638]

I'm surprised he can't use it with what it has now.  As I said, I use MC with a touchscreen sometimes, and I haven't hit many problems as long as I increase the size control by a good margin (or pull out a stylus).  Standard View is (or was last I tried) completely usable on my work's test Surface Pro 2.  I'll try it again during the week if I have a minute.

If I recall correctly, you can't just swipe on a list of items to scroll. You need to actually grab the scrollbar in MC.
 
I now seem to recall that another user asked for larger scrollbars, and I'm pretty sure I posted a modified version of Noire which did just that. (4x size)
I'll see if I can find it, it was not immediately obvious in a search.
EDIT: Sorry, I just can't find it. Perhaps the topic was deleted for some reason?

[mwillems]

If I recall correctly, you can't just swipe on a list of items to scroll. You need to actually grab the scrollbar in MC.
 
I now seem to recall that another user asked for larger scrollbars, and I'm pretty sure I posted a modified version of Noire which did just that. (4x size)
I'll see if I can find it, it was not immediately obvious in a search.
EDIT: Sorry, I just can't find it. Perhaps the topic was deleted for some reason?

Scrolling is probably the biggest issue for touch.  I don't use MC on touch-enabled devices very often, but when I do I always find myself vainly swiping to scroll until I remember a scroll bar is there, and then reach for my stylus because it's a bit small.

Another standard view item: double-click behavior in category views.  At first glance, the built in category views look like a slam-dunk for touch because they're image/caption based instead of list-based, but starting playback of an item from any of the default category-type views is kind of hard to do.  Double clicking/tapping on an upper level category moves to the next lower level, but when you get to the bottom level where individual albums/movies/TV episodes show up, double clicking/tapping the album cover or the movie cover doesn't play, instead it just toggles whether the file pane is visible or not.  You have to tap on the little "play" text in the lower left corner of the image, but that's only visible once you've tapped it once (or you can double-click on the file's text in the file pane once it's open, but that's extra steps and also kind of awkward on a touch device).  

The "doubleclick on the movie poster doesn't play the movie" behavior is a little counterintuitive even with a mouse, but with touch it's hard to physically do because the "play" text you need to hit is so small and can't be targeted until you've already tapped the image once.  It would make touch playback much easier if you could just tap the album cover or movie poster twice and get playback, instead of getting a file list.  Obviously starting playback is easier to do in theater view, but the focus here seems to be on ways to improve standard view for touch, and I think this would definitely improve the touch experience (and theater view isn't available on all platforms right now anyway).

[Listener]

I know. But Microsoft is still being cagy about even Windows 10.  I think they intend to "split it" and run the phone version of the OS on future iPad-like tablets, which brings you back around to the WinRT thing.  In any case, my point was that had they listened to Microsoft (this most recent time they said "Windows tablets are going to be huge this year") they'd have dumped a bunch of resources down a hole.

I don't think building against a possibly-fictional future where Microsoft finally makes some progress in mobile is an option for them.  Build it and they will come.

I totally agree here.  Modest improvements to make the current system work with available x86 touchscreen are absolutely worthwhile.  But the problem there is that there is no "one touchscreen" target.

I'm surprised he can't use it with what it has now.  As I said, I use MC with a touchscreen sometimes, and I haven't hit many problems as long as I increase the size control by a good margin (or pull out a stylus).  Standard View is (or was last I tried) completely usable on my work's test Surface Pro 2.  I'll try it again during the week if I have a minute.

But my available systems are probably wildly different, which is the problem.  In any case, I don't understand the problem.  Generalized "it should be better for touch" requests aren't going to go anywhere.  To gain traction, they'll need much more specifics (I have device X and it has problem B and solution Y would also apply to this whole range of devices that people actually own).

Glynor,

KingSparta, 6233638 and I have all suggested that support for using Standard mode views via touch interfaces would benefit us.  We all have considerable experience using MC.  I think that our posts should be read as the result of serious thought based on our experience over some time. Let's explore these ideas constructively before we kill them based on abstract arguments.

--- why does this matter to me?
I have used laptops to control MC from an easy chair with the TRemote features since they appeared.  Laptop touch pads are too fiddley so I use a trackball or a mouse.  The clamshell shape is awkward on my lap.  My current laptop weighs nearly 4 lbs.  I wind up putting the laptop and a mouse or trackball on a serving tray.  Every time I reach for the tray, I think about what an unsatisfactory arrangement this is.

I've tried using Gizmo and WebGizmo.  They are awkward for browsing my collection and the one category at a time method of browsing is a huge step down for me.

I want to keep the TRemote functionality with touch gestures added. I want this on a light device with no or a detachable keyboard, no mouse/trackpad and minimal weight.  I don't expect to edit anything but I want to browse and select music as I do now.

--- scrollbars and swipes
KingSparta mentioned lists and I took this to mean Panes views.  In a panes view, there is one scrollbar per pane.  As screen size gets smaller, screen real estate gets more precious and it gets harder to fit several scrollbars of usable width.  Scrolling the contents of a pane using swipe gestures on the entire width of the pane is much easier for fat fingered people like me.  My favorite views have 5 panes!

-- WinRT, Metro and just touch enabled applications
We discussed functional capabilities.  We're talking about using existing Windows features to provide that functionality.  The whole point is to avoid re-writing MC for ios, Android, WinRT or Metro or any other environment.

-- screen size
I think it makes sense to start with a discussion of desired functionality.  Then you talk about implementation methods and effort required. How small a screen size)you can support will depend on the functionality that will be provided, the amount of developer effort and how you use existing MC features?  My estimate:

A 12" touch screen will work for Panes interfaces with 4-5 panes.  No sweat with decent tuning of touch input.
10" will probably work for 4 panes and with some fiddling may work with 5 panes.  Still not that much tuning.
  8" will require compromises in functionality and more tuning.  Worst case: drop-down panes might be the only kind that are usable.
smartphones are probably not a realistic target.  leave this to ios/android remote apps.

[glynor]

If I recall correctly, you can't just swipe on a list of items to scroll. You need to actually grab the scrollbar in MC.

That is correct, because swiping is dragging.

So, the request is for a special mode where you can't drag-drop anymore and it scrolls instead?  Because, unless I'm mistaken, the Win32 api won't tell them it is a touch input versus a mouse automatically, so it would have to be something you enable.  But then you can't drag-drop to move, copy, or re-order items, and a lot of the UI in Standard View is draggable.

Perhaps a Tools > Options > Tree & View > Touch > Tablet Scrolling option that, when enabled:
* Swiping up or down (with your finger or your mouse) scrolls the active target view window
* Tap/Click-and-hold then move to drag

Not ideal for a mouse-driven UI, obviously, but it would work on a tablet.  I'd vote yes for that.

[JimH]

An option was recently added under Tree and View to allow "Enlarge Scroll Bars...".

[JimH]

That is correct, because swiping is dragging.

So, the request is for a special mode where you can't drag-drop anymore and it scrolls instead? 

I'd like this, too.  We'll get there.

[6233638]

An option was recently added under Tree and View to allow "Enlarge Scroll Bars...".

That is an "on hover" option, and you can't hover with a touchscreen.
That's why I had previously modified Noire to use the 4x scale scrollbars when the rest of the skin is at 1x. I just can't seem to find that post now.
 

That is correct, because swiping is dragging.
So, the request is for a special mode where you can't drag-drop anymore and it scrolls instead?  Because, unless I'm mistaken, the Win32 api won't tell them it is a touch input versus a mouse automatically, so it would have to be something you enable.  But then you can't drag-drop to move, copy, or re-order items, and a lot of the UI in Standard View is draggable.

Huh, I was not aware that there was no way to distinguish between touch inputs and mouse inputs on Windows. Are you sure? I could have sworn that other programs did this.

Perhaps a Tools > Options > Tree & View > Touch > Tablet Scrolling option that, when enabled:
* Swiping up or down (with your finger or your mouse) scrolls the active target view window
* Tap/Click-and-hold then move to drag

Not ideal for a mouse-driven UI, obviously, but it would work on a tablet.  I'd vote yes for that.

Well the selection/drag behavior in MC is already non-standard, as you have to manually enable the option to drag items with the left mouse button to begin with.
Perhaps these changes could be rolled into that?

[KingSparta]

Actually I Use

Standard View, Under Customize View, I Have "File List" Selected (Shows A List Of Files) With A Very Tiny Album Cover. At one time this was the original view, and I still think it should be, but it seems people like to look at pictures now days. I do admit some times it is neater to do all that swiping.



http://www.pix01.com/gallery/B280D19A-10F9-45F2-9735-3FF207F375C7/MC/527011923_orig0.jpg