Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[PrinterPrinter]

Hello,
I'm building a dedicated Hifi set up and would like some feedback or ideas about the media PC to run JRiver.

My set up will be:

Media PC -> Chord Hugo Dac -> Classe CAP2100 amp -> B&W CM10 speakers

The actual music/media library will be stored in a NAS on the network that will also run a copy of JRiver to serve the media to the local clients - in this case the Hifi system. Everything will be connected with Ethernet cables (and switches, it's spread over 3 floors...

I wonder what specs I should go for the media server?
It's only function is to run stream the music to the DAC, won't do video, games or even have a screen attached.

My requirements are that it's fanless and has an optical out (Toslink) to connect to the Hugo - I understand it's better than a USB connection as optical doesn't carry voltage noise.

I might also consider a small PCI audio card (Asus Xonar?) to do the optical out bit even better...

My budget is up to around £800

Please share your thoughts, thanks!

[PrinterPrinter]

Also,
Perhaps a Mac min would be the best option?
It's small, quiet, runs windows and has optical out?

Any reason not to use a mac mini?

Thanks,

[JimH]

It's more expensive than other choices.

[6233638]

Perhaps a Mac min would be the best option?
It's small, quiet, runs windows and has optical out?

Any reason not to use a mac mini?

Well for one thing, they aren't fanless and can be quite noisy when you tax the CPU.

Secondly, they have not been updated in over two years now and are far behind what similar PCs are capable of. (CPU/GPU performance and efficiency)

They're also rather expensive for what you get, especially if you're planning on running Windows on it. I could understand somebody choosing one over a Windows PC if they really wanted to run OSX. (but Windows would be my preference for media playback)

[Arindelle]

I have been putting together a couple of HTPCs for friends of mine and I was going to make a post of with pictures but don't have the time just now. Saw this and thought I'd put what I've put together.

Note this is totally silent (except the optical drive when running) runs at 35°C max (that I have recorded)

This system will be at the top end of your budget with a Streacom case and no OS (260 euro for a box   ) http://www.streacom.com/products/fc5-evo-fanless-chassis/

There are even better boxes for much less from HDPlex - my friends are snobs and thought the streacom fit in better with the Naim euh named gear. Also they have models with much smaller footprints http://www.hd-plex.com/ If you don't need or want an optical drive the small model is only 139 euro (ships from either Germany or the US so no duty) and just as well put together if not better -- just question of looks. or impatience .... often you have to wait for a couple of months if they are out of stock, which is a drag too.

Both the seacom and the hdplex are heavy duty with a frontplate thicker than high end amplifier so for gear snobs these are great too Both brands use the same cooling idea.


Case: Streacom FC5OD EVO Black Fanless HTPC Aluminium Chassis

PSU: Streacom 150W nano with an AC/DC adapter block (I prefer to have an external block to keep the heat down inside even though its still got some headroom - otherwise I'd get an internal Pico 160watts or 120 watt internal PSU (this system only needs 100watts btw)

Motherboard:  Gigabyte GA-Z97M-D3H LGA1150 Micro ATX (or your choice was cheaper than the asus boards in France; the smaller HDPlex model needs an ITX board) SEE EDIT BELOW PLZ

Proc: Intel 4th Gen Core i3 4360T 3.2GHz 35W HD4600 4MB Dual Core CPU or 4350T (very low power consumption more than enough for audio, and video is actually quite good - not for MADVR ultimate settings though)

RAM: Crucial Standard 8GB (2x4GB) 1600MHz CL11 DDR3 Memory (sure you can get better, but do you need it for just audio? need 8, 4 will work but I always get more ram than needed )

SSD: Samsung 840 EVO 120GB SSD Three-layer Cell Solid State Drive (just happen to like samsungs, not as good as the pro, I have a crucial at home works fine)

Slim DVD drive (or blue ray whatever must be slim) I think its just an optiarc they wanted this to play the occasion audio cd.

you might need an IR receiver (beacuse they went with the streacom I got them this
Streacom ST-IRPB Receiver
if you plan to use in the future cards you'd need a slot "riser" adapter to have the card horizontal (which is pretty cheap), some sata cables and a cable for USB3 to use all of the ports

you can get better ram, processors, and go with the Samsung Pro ssd -- if you want an i5 or i7 get the T models (low power usage); don't see why you would need it for your use.

if you want to go headless, get teamviewer (its free) to remotely control the HTPC for admin/maintenance. Have an iPad? good get JRemote as a controller and you are good to go.

Can this be done cheaper and smaller? ... sure with NUCs, otherwise there are very quiet PC with fans (big ones), but they cost as much. Cheap small diameter fans always make noise IMO. This will be silent, run cold (do not put it in a drawer of course; needs air flow around it), and looks great -- no trademarks even. The streacom you could even put a 4to green drive in locally, its got the room for more than that, and its still extremely quiet. One of my friends decided not to buy a NAS when he heard the low drive noise.
hope this helps


edit:

The actual music/media library will be stored in a NAS on the network that will also run a copy of JRiver to serve the media to the local clients

No you can't install JRiver directly on a NAS, the HTPC would be the media server attached to the NAS.

oh also ... Personally I don't see the need for the asus card if you are going toslink to the Chord -- others may not agree.

edit: the Gigabyte board mentioned above, I cannot recommend ... it has neither optical nor S/PDIF coax outputs. Although it has spdif on the motherboard, go figure.

Sorry.

[astromo]

Refer to my post here:
Gigabyte GB-BXBT-2807 vs Id - Reply #29

I plan to put up an in depth rundown to document how I got the unit squared away with Ubuntu but it should be a lot more straight forward if you loaded it with Windows 7/8.

According to this:
http://intelnuc.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/silent-nuc-alternative-from-gigabyte.html
the GB-BXBT-2807 has almost half the TDP of the Intel NUC DN2820FYKH. At 4.3W it should just purr away. For a headless audio only unit, it makes sense to me. Explains why I dropped the spondoolies on it and picked one up to go exploring the MC for Linux world.

EDIT:

My requirements are that it's fanless and has an optical out (Toslink) to connect to the Hugo - I understand it's better than a USB connection as optical doesn't carry voltage noise.

Didn't see this point of detail. The GB-BXBT-2807 doesn't have S/PDIF Optical Out. Not too hard to pick up an HDMI to HDMI+Opt Out splitter/converter or a cheap USB DAC. Depends on what compromise works best for your budget.

[6233638]

EDIT: Didn't see this point of detail. The GB-BXBT-2807 doesn't have S/PDIF Optical Out. Not too hard to pick up an HDMI to HDMI+Opt Out splitter/converter or a cheap USB DAC. Depends on what compromise works best for your budget.

Or a USB TOSLINK or S/PDIF adapter.

[Arindelle]

@Astromo Do not think picking up a cheap USB DAC is needed Astromo 

The high def USB doesn't sound like an unattractive alternative btw PrinterPrinter

Check out his Chord DAC -- must have missed this -- pretty amazing what it can do - but then again its not cheap piece of kit.  And it always runs off DC

Inputs

• Optical TOSLink 24-bit/192kHz-capable
• RCA coaxial input 24-bit/384kHz-capable
• Driverless USB input 16-bit/48kHz-capable (designed for tablets/phones)
• HD USB input 32-bit/384KHz and DSD128-capable (for computer/laptop playback; requires driver installation on Windows, others TBC) *

* This input is asynchronous and uses Hugo’s own highly accurate clock circuit. This input will support 384KHz PCM/DXD and also DSD64 and DSD128 in DoP format.

Outputs

• 2x3.5mm headphone jacks
• 1x6.35mm (1/4 inch) headphone jack
• 1x (pair) stereo RCA phono output

Technical specs

• Advanced digital volume control
• Crossfeed filter network
• Battery powered for approximately 14 hours operation
• Input, sample rate and volume level indication by colour-change LEDs
• 26K tap-length filter (more than double when compared to the QuteHD DAC)
• THD: 140dB
• Headphone output: 110dB SPL into a 300ohm headphone load

[astromo]

There are even better boxes for much less from HDPlex - my friends are snobs and thought the streacom fit in better with the Naim euh named gear. Also they have models with much smaller footprints http://www.hd-plex.com/ If you don't need or want an optical drive the small model is only 139 euro (ships from either Germany or the US so no duty) and just as well put together if not better -- just question of looks. or impatience .... often you have to wait for a couple of months if they are out of stock, which is a drag too.

Both the seacom and the hdplex are heavy duty with a frontplate thicker than high end amplifier so for gear snobs these are great too Both brands use the same cooling idea.

I can vouch for Larry's work over at HD-Plex. Personally I'm waiting to see where this comment from him goes:
http://www.hd-plex.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4328&postcount=36

I have already finished my NUC design.
I can't release it now. It will be a small cube style with four heatpipe solution. But the heatpipe will be preinstalled/welded onto the copper base and side fin panel. Customer does not need to install them. NUC/Brix board will directly sit on the whole heatsink system/copper plate.

BTW, my NUC case will support 1x slim ODD+2x 2.5HDD(hotswap) or 4x2.5HDD(hotswap) configuration.

He does a good job and delivers great after sales service. Delivery times can slip at times. Personally, the build quality makes up for that, so it's often worth the waiting for an item not directly available.

These guys put together a very sexy fanless chassis:
http://www.tranquilpcshop.co.uk/nuc-chassis/
Wins the styling award to my eye but the NUC package above from HD-Plex (if/when it comes) would have the tech edge if you're looking at serious onboard storage. The gun metal alloy case would go nicely with the Hugo (now that I know what that refers to). They've got a pre-built option that comes in at just under the GBP800 mark (but that's exVAT ... sneaks!):
http://www.tranquilpcshop.co.uk/abel-h22-5-gold/

@Astromo Do not think picking up a cheap USB DAC is needed Astromo  

The high def USB doesn't sound like an unattractive alternative btw PrinterPrinter

Check out his Chord DAC -- must have missed this -- pretty amazing what it can do - but then again its not cheap piece of kit.  And it always runs off DC

New gear that I wasn't aware of and is way out of my price range, in any case:
http://www.avforums.com/review/chord-electronics-hugo-mobile-dac-headphone-amp-review.10437

I agree. I'd very much expect that it would make sure that audio over USB comes out sweet and clean.

[PrinterPrinter]

Thanks Guys,
Great advice.

I want to use Toslink (even though it doesn't support DSD) because it does go to 24/192 and I want to be certain I'm not getting any electrical interferences...

In any case 99.9% of my music is in 16/44 and it sounds awesome with the Hugo, I doubt I'll use DSD in the near future...

Maybe I'll go for a Fanless sidewinder PC so that I could add a PCI sound-card at a later stage if I do decide to go via USB...

Is there any difference in the toslink connections between say a Gigabyte mobo and a Mac mini?

Thanks!

[Arindelle]

sure no problem.

If you are in the UK and you don't want to put the thing together you can buy it directly from here ==>QuietPC. I have bought two from them and had them delivered to France. You'll be paying a bit extra of course - but the service is excellent and they were both delivered to France with the most amazing amount of packaging, no risk whats so ever to have this delivered. Call support and ask for Andy (tell him Steve from France sent you  ) And have to admit I got the original configuration from them too.

I've built two others myself - the Streacom is easy, lots of space; if you use an optical drive the manual eject button is a PITA; make sure it works before screwing everything else together.  The HDPlex (had the H3.sodd which is great but doesn't look like they make it anymore ) Putting on the thermal paste I admit I made quite a mess -- lots more copper tubing on the hdpex, and you do use a lot ==> euh I just used a bit too much.

[6233638]

Is there any difference in the toslink connections between say a Gigabyte mobo and a Mac mini?

The Mac Mini probably only does 24/96. It was only in the most recent revision that the MacBook Pros were updated to support 24/192, and the Mac Mini design is two years old now.

[PrinterPrinter]

I'm a bit torn between the fanless PC and the Brix,

The Fanless in minimal configuration (i3, 8GB, 120GB SSD) comes to £852
Where as the Brix (with a slightly weaker i3 processor) comes to £432

I wonder if the 'Fanless' bit is worth £420?
The mac min has a fan too and it's quiet...

What do you think?

Thanks!

[JimH]

If you're only doing audio, you might consider the JRiver Id.

[PrinterPrinter]

Sadly,
it appears the ID is NUC based so no optical out?

Otherwise it looks very cool!

[JimH]

My requirements are that it's fanless and has an optical out (Toslink) to connect to the Hugo - I understand it's better than a USB connection as optical doesn't carry voltage noise.

USB is normally perfectly fine, in spite of what is said in some audiophile circles.

[astromo]

USB is normally perfectly fine, in spite of what is said in some audiophile circles.

With the DAC being planned for, USB should be a doddle.

[mwillems]

USB is normally perfectly fine, in spite of what is said in some audiophile circles.

And USB has some definite advantages, especially if you plan to do multi-channel music or DSD in the future.  

TOSLINK also can have problems of its own; it will give you electrical isolation, but in my experience it's more vulnerable to flaky connectors or cables (getting a firm connection is not always easy, unlike with USB).  I've had TOSLINK headers that would appear to seat correctly but would provide a terrible connection.  The hardware wouldn't work correctly until I effectively disassembled and reassembled the connectors.  Not fun.

[Arindelle]

@PrinterPrinter

Looking at the specs (and price / reputation) of the Chord I don't think I would choose what I recommended or similar rather, over an Id or NUC solution just because of a toslink connection --

It does not sounds like you would be using a lot of the dsp functionality, but you would be needing to have it running or WOL all the time.

The spec for my friends was based on replacing their existing DVD and cd players also -- so an optical drive was important. So a very light use of video playback / web streaming without adding a graphics card. Ability to rip to the media server machine directly. Silent operation (no HDs inside) very quiet (one WD green drive). If you need or want these features, I don't see why one should go for a NUC at all.

I hesitated getting a NUC setup, for one reason and that is heat (which means either problems or noise). With the new i5s/i7 processors, they can play MADvr at almost top settings (not really I know guys, but for my needs they would be adequate as I'm not a big video fan. I have seen a standard NUC with an i5, and because of the tiny fan it makes noise (not so much loud but irritating sort of high pitch noise that bothers me; and it gets actually really hot to the touch.  I doubt the id would even come close to warming the box with audio playback (never tried one but I trust these guys ). ...  so the fan noise probably is imperceptible ?

Saying that there are a bunch of companies as Astromo was talking about that are making some affordable passive and active ventilating enclosures -- nice looking too. You could probably rip the Id apart and put them in one in a pinch.

Also there are some gadgets that can reduce noise in problematic USB connections from a motherboard .. I am skeptical about stuff like this although Schitt is selling one for 100$ -- and they are a pretty no bullschitt company LOL and its called the Wyrd decrapifier on top of it   http://schiit.com/products/wyrd-usb-decrapifier, true to their form, they make no promises that it will actually work or is really needed -- have to love these guys!

So long story short, and strictly as a non-engineer that likes and plays a lot of music so take with a grain of salt,   you have a bunch of options but not sure the choice toslink vs USB should be the the reason for choosing one over the other.

[astromo]

Refer to my post here:
Gigabyte GB-BXBT-2807 vs Id - Reply #29

I plan to put up an in depth rundown to document how I got the unit squared away with Ubuntu but it should be a lot more straight forward if you loaded it with Windows 7/8.

As promised:
MC20 Linux Build on a Gigabyte Brix GB-BXBT-2807

[Arindelle]

edit: the Gigabyte board mentioned above, I cannot recommend ... it has neither optical or S/DIF coax outputs. Although it has spdif on the motherboard, go figure.

Sorry.

Just a heads up if you missed my edit.

[mojave]

The following Gigabyte Brix have SPDIF output:
GB-BXi5-4570R
GB-BXi7-4770R
GB-BXCEH-2955
GB-BXi3H-4010
GB-BXi5H-4200
GB-BXi7H-4500

[Arindelle]

@Mojave -- yes should have been more specific  -- I was talking about the mini ATX mobo not the Brix

[PrinterPrinter]

Hello People,

I finally decided and started building my machine,

Eventually went for a fanless PC based on a Streacom FC5 evo case.
Specs are:

Intel Core i3 4330,
Gigabyte GA-Z97M-D3H
8GB ram
and a 128GB SSD

Thanks for all the help!

[Arindelle]

  oh no!! did you not see my edit? I made a mistake and that board has no optical or dig coax out. It does have SPDIF from the mother board but you will need to take up the expansion slot to hook up a connector.

hope you see this in time to change your order so sorry

[astromo]

Also there are some gadgets that can reduce noise in problematic USB connections from a motherboard .. I am skeptical about stuff like this although Schitt is selling one for 100$ -- and they are a pretty no bullschitt company LOL and its called the Wyrd decrapifier on top of it   http://schiit.com/products/wyrd-usb-decrapifier, true to their form, they make no promises that it will actually work or is really needed -- have to love these guys!

Along this line, I've just ordered one of these TeraLink U9 X1/X2 Linear Power Supply and one of these USB isolation plate protection board ADUM4160 USB Isolator. The plan is that this will hopefully sort out some pop/click behaviour on my PC at work. I know it will look ugly but this is how it will look hooked up:

Electrickery info on the isolator here:
http://www.circuitsathome.com/adum4160-usb-isolator-assembly-guide

I found a mob in Hong Kong via HiFi forum and the package is on its way for USD$83 - I reckon that's alright for a punt.

[Arindelle]

ah you are right that is UGGLLYY AStromo    for 13 $ more you could have had this nice looking piece of Schitt 

[astromo]

ah you are right that is UGGLLYY AStromo    for 13 $ more you could have had this nice looking piece of Schitt 

More than that for me in my far flung corner of the globe. I'd be looking at another 20 bucks for shipping.. 

Also, function before form is my thinking - especially when I can hide the ugly stuff at the back of the PC out of sight. Plus, for $44 for the PSU and $23 for the USB isolator, I reckon that's pretty reasonable economics. If the plan doesn't work then at least I'm not up Schiit creek.

[Arindelle]

More than that for me in my far flung corner of the globe. I'd be looking at another 20 bucks for shipping..  

Also, function before form is my thinking - especially when I can hide the ugly stuff at the back of the PC out of sight. Plus, for $44 for the PSU and $23 for the USB isolator, I reckon that's pretty reasonable economics. If the plan doesn't work then at least I'm not up Schiit creek.

LOL I can see that ... probably doesn't do anything anyways

Improves Sound, Color Printing, Data Stability
Just kidding. This is silly. That’s like saying charging your iPhone off Wyrd makes the battery last longer. But some listeners say Wyrd improves the sound of their system. We’re not going to make any such claims. Nor are we going to recommend it for printers, external USB drives, or iPhone chargers.

[dcozmonaut]

I just ordered the following fanless system that will (hopefully) become my new media pc:

ASRock Q1900TM-ITX Intel Celeron J1900 Motherboard ($120)
Silverstone PT13 Thin ITX case ($60)
Samsung EVO 240GB msata SSD ($140)
Kingston 8GB ($75)
usb audio is TBD:  I have an audioquest dragonfly but it was causing noise on my intel NUC (I think it's a usb3 issue, I have a separate post on that).  This MB has both usb3.0 and usb2.0.

I looked at the cpu benchmark on the J1900 and it should be just fine for audio playback and basic computing tasks.  I looked at buying a streacom or hdplex case and building a higher performance system (i3 o i5) but after finding the Q1900TM-ITX it is hard to justify the additional cost and assembly time.  I also only store music so 240GB will be plenty of space for me.

[PrinterPrinter]

Great,
I just discovered that my Mobo (GA-Z97M-D3H) while having a real SPDIF output doesn't support 88.2 and 176.4 rates... this is annoying an most of the Qobuz albums are 88.2...

The specs for the audio part (Realtek ALC892) say it can play these resolutions but the driver in windows doesn't have them...

Any work around? Should I get a proper sound card in addition? Sounds like an over kill...

What do you think?

[Arindelle]

in dsp studio you can have JRiver upsample 88.2 to 96K or whatever you want.  I don't think it should be perceptible. Better ask somebody else, but depends on what your DAC does (doesn't seem like its a NOS dac so its probably upsampling to 196 or 384).

I'd try that and compare it with the async USB (create two zones and adjust for gain differences) and choose what sounds better.

I'd be interested to know the more I read on that Dac, the more it sounds like the USB connection is truly very good.

 

[PrinterPrinter]

in dsp studio you can have JRiver upsample 88.2 to 96K or whatever you want.  I don't think it should be perceptible. Better ask somebody else, but depends on what your DAC does (doesn't seem like its a NOS dac so its probably upsampling to 196 or 384).

I'd try that and compare it with the async USB (create two zones and adjust for gain differences) and choose what sounds better.

I'd be interested to know the more I read on that Dac, the more it sounds like the USB connection is truly very good.

 

Thanks Mate,
Rob Watts who is the designer of the Hugo (and many other devices) frequents the huge Hugo thread on Head-Fi and he clearly stated that he prefers the Toslink connection as it's completely isolated from any 'electrical or magnetic noise form the computer/network/wifi...

I don't want to up sample to a fraction (88/96) so prefer to down-sample to 44.1 - maybe I'll just get a proper Asus sound card but make sure it can do these rates...

[AndyU]

PrinterPrinter .. a few thoughts ..

(I've got a Hugo by the way)

Rob also says on the same thread that if you use an Olimex isolator with USB on the SD input that isolates the Hugo from the pc beneficially, though it'll only work up to 24bit/48kHz. So that's maybe an option - and cheap - at least for your red book stuff.

Rather than get soundcard for your pc, what about a USB to SPDIF Convertor with a bit of Hifi street cred?

Something like the iFi Audio iLink perhaps? 24/192 capable, optical and rca, galvanic isolation.

IFi Audio also do a box called iUSB Power which cleans up the Power supply on the USB output and does work into the HD input of the Hugo.