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Author Topic: Thumbnail Problem  (Read 3025 times)

HiFiTubes

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Thumbnail Problem
« on: November 15, 2014, 07:25:51 am »

I keep rebuilding thumbs, done this for a bout a week making sure everything is built.

Why do thumbs get erased? One thought...I updated my DSM on Synology today and MC probably noted the NAS was offline....but I have files I tagged and embedded art into 2 weeks ago and many of these keep rebuilding thumbs on the fly in MC.

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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 12:41:49 pm »

Confused....

MC reports Image File: Inside File

No thumbnail in MC.

VLC is pulling Cover Art from tags.

Rebuild Thumbnail does nothing.

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Arindelle

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 03:46:35 am »

Confused....

MC reports Image File: Inside File

No thumbnail in MC.

VLC is pulling Cover Art from tags.

Rebuild Thumbnail does nothing.

Are you using the cover art audio option in same folder as file -- recommended if not especially when on network. Doesn't look like you have the embedded art in the folder. You have another image

Also I have found that when this occurs at least one file is not tagged (all tracks in an album should be or the association can break) some files can have missing physical artwork, or some have the physical artwork but are not "embedded"

here's  what I use to check ... (afterwards you can use the cover art tools to either embed form the file or save to the folder as needed by bulk selection)

you can import this into a smartlist or admin view ... works for me

Code: [Select]
[Media Type]=[Audio] -[Image File]=[Inside File] ~sort=[Album Artist],[Album]
VLC is not working from a library. Hope this helps :)
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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 03:54:19 am »

Thanks for the filter!

I do have the image in there but have only recently switched to folder.jpg. I wish MC would just default to grab any one image in folder no matter what name.

I'm not sure why Windows Explorer and VLC can see the embedded cover art, especially since they aren't using a library but the tags themselves (correct?), but MC isn't.

Are you using the cover art audio option in same folder as file -- recommended if not especially when on network. Doesn't look like you have the embedded art in the folder. You have another image

Also I have found that when this occurs at least one file is not tagged (all tracks in an album should be or the association can break) some files can have missing physical artwork, or some have the physical artwork but are not "embedded"

here's  what I use to check ... (afterwards you can use the cover art tools to either embed form the file or save to the folder as needed by bulk selection)

you can import this into a smartlist or admin view ... works for me

Code: [Select]
[Media Type]=[Audio] -[Image File]=[Inside File] ~sort=[Album Artist],[Album]
VLC is not working from a library. Hope this helps :)

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Arindelle

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 05:09:01 am »

Thanks for the filter!

I do have the image in there but have only recently switched to folder.jpg. I wish MC would just default to grab any one image in folder no matter what name.

I'm not sure why Windows Explorer and VLC can see the embedded cover art, especially since they aren't using a library but the tags themselves (correct?), but MC isn't.

sure no problem. You know after all these years,  I'm not sure how the library database uses cover art!  ;D In my experience, over a network with clients especially, I do know sticking all images in a dump roaming directory on the system drive doesn't work well for me.

I have always used folder.jpg even before I started with JRiver, but my friend uses cover.jpg and it works fine (as long as it is in the same folder as the album). It does, at least for me, seem to mess up if only one file on the album doesn't have embedded art, like in an album view you could get a blue ?, sometimes when only a file or two isn't embedded. On playback the tagged files will show the embedded art, though.
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JimH

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 07:19:44 am »

PLease use another thread for discussions.  Build threads should be used for confirmed bugs only.
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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 07:35:08 am »

Looks like a bug to me. Each file states it is tagged and I've shown explorer sees the image Art, for each file. MC can't see the art.
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glynor

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 11:27:37 am »

Looks like a bug to me. Each file states it is tagged and I've shown explorer sees the image Art, for each file. MC can't see the art.

What Jim meant was that if there is any discussion required at all, or if you're asking any kinds of questions, then making a separate thread is always the best course of action.

Posts in the build threads by design get "buried" as new builds come out.  They're just not a good place for discussion.

For the record, I think it is extremely likely that this problem is intimately related to your performance issues.  If we solve one, we solve both, I'd bet $20.
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Arindelle

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 11:28:56 am »

PLease use another thread for discussions.  Build threads should be used for confirmed bugs only.

sorry guys I should know better :-[
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glynor

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 11:29:30 am »

sorry guys I should know better

No big deal.  I don't think Jim was ticked, just reminding.
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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 11:35:52 am »


MC reports Image File: Inside File for every file on the album shown without cover art below.

There is no thumbnail in MC. Rebuild Thumbnail does nothing

Windows Explorer and VLC are pulling Cover Art from tags? I'm not an expert but they looked tagged with art in Explorer.

I have quite a few files suddenly showing up like this; all MP3 so far.

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glynor

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 11:43:01 am »

I keep rebuilding thumbs, done this for a bout a week making sure everything is built.

Why do thumbs get erased? One thought...I updated my DSM on Synology today and MC probably noted the NAS was offline

This is almost certainly what is happening.  To explain something... You don't seem to understand what MC is doing when it is building thumbnails.  That's okay, as it is somewhat esoteric and nerdy!

MC cannot use the thumbnail JPG files directly on disk for display.  If it did, it would NEVER be able to perform well when showing thousands of assets, or even probably a few hundred.  If you don't believe me, try this:

1. Make a folder in Windows, and copy a few image files into it.
2. Switch the View in Windows Explorer to Large or Extra Large Icons mode.
3. Now, copy 3-4 thousand files into the folder.  You can do this pretty easily from MC if you have your photos imported, just select a huge swath of them and copy them into the folder.
4. Now, open the folder in Windows Explorer, and try to change the sorting.
5. Watch it hang for minutes at a time.

On my system at home, if I change the sorting of my Photostream folder (which has a few thousand 4-8 megapixel JPGs all dumped into the root folder) Windows Explorer usually takes 10-20 minutes to refresh the view.

That's because for all changes, it has to read the files off of disk, generate a screen-optimized thumbnail, and then do a complex sorting algorithm on top of it.  This is just hard, and limited heavily by disk throughput.  So, MC doesn't do that.  It can't because it is often asked to show many thousands of photos on the screen at one time.  Windows Explorer can usually safely assume a single folder won't contain thousands of images.

What MC is doing when it is building thumbnails is it is building a highly-optimized for on-screen display cache of the thumbnails, in a variety of sizes, so that it can cache the part of it needed in RAM, and show the artwork for thousands of files all at once and do so fast.  This is the exact same strategy used by everything from Adobe Bridge and Lightroom to iTunes to iPhoto.  Basically any application that shows a bunch of artwork on screen and needs to scroll them around needs to be able to build an optimized cache of the artwork.  It cannot read them on the fly from disk or else it will drag horribly when you try to scroll.

If your thumbnails are being lost/rebuilt regularly, then performance in MC is going to be terrible whenever this happens.

I'm not clear on exactly when MC loses thumbnails.  I think we need someone from JRiver to respond.  However, I know offline disks can cause it.  I have a lot of assets in my main home Library that are on external disks that are typically disconnected and on a shelf.  I use them for "cold storage" of files I want to keep, but which I don't need online all the time (old episodes of shows I've already watched, movies, etc).  As soon as I disconnect one of these, it loses all the thumbnails for the entire disk, if the view showing these files is active at the time.

Then, when I plug the drive back in, MC has to rebuild the thumbnail cache for those disks, and the performance of the views showing those files suffers until the process is completed, as expected.  But, this isn't something that happens to me regularly (and my main Media Library volumes don't go offline, just these external "cold storage" disks).  Under what circumstances do these thumbnails get lost?

Perhaps MC could be tweaked somehow to make it work better with your network volume if it is disconnecting all the time, or maybe something else is going on?
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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2014, 12:00:34 pm »

Thanks. I do remember in the past grabbing that whole library specific thumbnail folder and keeping it as a backup to avoid building thumbs. MC used to lose thumbs sometimes if you restored a library, and all those jmd files? seemed pretty well behaved as they would map right back.

I just meant with the NAS update, maybe it would have caused a bit of confusion at the time and account for some of the behavior. But it was happening before and after. Now things seem more stable with tagged cover art and the thumb cache behaving.

However, there is a problem with thumbs and someone else has posted in the bug thread with same issue. Missing thumbs that can't be rebuilt.

Im sure it will be fixed soon. I'm glad I ditched the Intel card as my NAS speed is way up and switching views is snappy.

I tried a desperate tweak to change mouse scrolling in Windows to 5 lines vs. 4. So far so good and I hope my scroll stutter doesn't come back yet again.
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glynor

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2014, 12:08:14 pm »

I tried a desperate tweak to change mouse scrolling in Windows to 5 lines vs. 4. So far so good and I hope my scroll stutter doesn't come back yet again.

Hey, one thing worth mentioning...

I have a couple Logitech mouse devices on my HTPC.  One of those fancy trackpads and their Couch Mouse (which is sweet, by the way).  In any case, if Logitech's SmoothScrolling feature is enabled, it breaks all kinds of scrolling behavior horribly, including for MC.

They should call that feature Stutter-Scrolling, instead of SmoothScrolling.

It was possible to beat it into submission, I know because I did, but I remember it was not easy.  The option in the Logitech UI didn't work right, and I had to hack around it a bunch.  No details come to mind immediately, but...

If you happen to have a Logitech mouse, yell, and we can investigate this further.

I doubt that's it.  I'd be willing to bet it is the thumbnails problem that is the source of your horribleness, but, just in case, it is worth throwing it out there.
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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2014, 10:29:01 pm »

I have a new lead. I open my log every time I see the sluggish behavior. It's not so much switching views, but I'll re-iterate, sluggish scrolling.

So, in the log there is always some Sharing plugin which I guess is DLNA related as I have Last.FM and other stuff turned off. I also have TV features disabled.

I noticed that MC exe is using 13% CPU at a complete standstill.

When I restart, no sluggish scrolling and normal cpu use.

When I transcode high-rez PCM to DSD on the fly I only get 10%...and normal playback uses 1-3% of the i7.



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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 10:55:25 pm »

With regard to the original problem, at least one user has this problem. Hopefully more can chime, and we can elevate it to a Bug.
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Arindelle

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2014, 06:17:33 am »

like Glynor mentioned ... do you have logtiec set-point installed? I had some problems with that myself although it was n't linked to smooth scrolling. Try uninstalling it if you have it, the mouse will still work.
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HiFiTubes

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2014, 06:21:47 am »

like Glynor mentioned ... do you have logtiec set-point installed? I had some problems with that myself although it was n't linked to smooth scrolling. Try uninstalling it if you have it, the mouse will still work.

I removed it a while ago.

I'm seeing high CPU usage correlating with my sluggishness.

MC.exe hits is hovering at 13% at idle.

I'm looking into DLNA right now as I see a mystery device (probably my TV?) getting served over and over...
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Arindelle

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Re: Thumbnail Problem
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2014, 07:13:55 am »

I'm looking into DLNA right now as I see a mystery device (probably my TV?) getting served over and over...

getting a bit off topic so you might want to start another post on cpu issue ... but remove all dlna devices that you don't need for starters - you could be provoking a loop if the device is not "there" If so that would be an easy fix Options=>Network=>add or configure dlna devices and just the remove button to clean them up
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