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[john greenwood]

Tried resetting the buffers.  I still cannot adjust the volume either for system sounds or for YouTube.  It is always very low.  I have tried changing the volume in both the mixer dialog box and in MC20

[mwillems]

You added your edit about volume control after I posted; the buffers won't affect volume.

Check in the windows mixer/control panel to make sure that both the realtek device and the JRiver WDM device have their volume sliders set to an appropriate level.  One of them is probably set low.

Then change the JRiver volume setting to "internal," and you should have good volume control capability.

[john greenwood]

Everything is set to maximum in the mixer/control panel.  Still can't control the volume.  And I do not get the system sounds on all occasions.

[john greenwood]

OK - now I'm just baffled.  I am not even getting much volume in MC20 - and I can't adjust the volume, not with the MC20 slider and not with the mixer slider.  Also I can't mute the sound either in the program or with the Windows mixer.

[mwillems]

Did you try following the second portion of my advice (changing JRiver's volume setting to "internal")?

You added your edit about volume control after I posted; the buffers won't affect volume.

Check in the windows mixer/control panel to make sure that both the realtek device and the JRiver WDM device have their volume sliders set to an appropriate level.  One of them is probably set low.

Then change the JRiver volume setting to "internal," and you should have good volume control capability. [Emphasis added]

[john greenwood]

I did.  

After shutting everything down and re-opening, it appears to me that the Windows volume slider and mixer have no effect, and sometimes system sounds (at least the ping) do not sound.  MC 20's volume slider will adjust those, and MC 20 works in tandem with other sliders like YouTube.

Edit - were my settings so unusual?  Otherwise, would it make sense to put some of this in the instruction thread?  I did start there.

Further edit - to be clear, the JRiver slider in the Windows mixer has no effect.  Only the MC20 slider in the program, itself.

[eternaloptimist]

Probably a stupid question....
I have Spotify and Qobuz "playing to" the JRiver WDM driver.
When playing, "Ipc" is listed in JRiver playback window with playback time ticking.
But... when playback is paused (stopped) on Spotify or Qobuz  the playback timer in JRiver continues unless JRiver is stopped (stop button).
Is this an issue?
I have an Audiophilleo2 USB to SPDIF hooked up and I am concerned that this could be preventing the Audiophilleo from shutting down when no playback (am trying to test this).
Cheers,
D

[Hendrik]

The WDM driver should shut down after a few minutes of silence. It won't shut down immediately as to not disrupt playback when you just pause briefly.

[eternaloptimist]

The WDM driver should shut down after a few minutes of silence. It won't shut down immediately as to not disrupt playback when you just pause briefly.

Many thanks for the reply and information! I will check this is happening. Thanks again. 

[wolffe]

2 Problems (repeatable) with the WDM Driver.

Issue #1: After a while (say, an hour or less), the WDM driver screws up and the output stream becomes semi recognizable garbage until playback is stopped at the source AND at JRiver, then restarted.  During this "garbage" period, if playback is only stopped at JRiver, it is unable to restart (error: "Something went wrong with playback"), until source is stopped then restarted.

Issue #2: Clicks and pops will happen in the output if one mouse overs a bunch of items fast in Chrome.  This will eventually lead to a screwy stream that needs restarting at both points.  This does *not* seem to occur with any other apps I've tried, although I haven't tried a different browser yet.

Both machines are *more* than adequate to handle these streams; both are i7 class desktop machines with 32gb ram running windows 8.1.  One has a MOTU 89kmk3, one a MOTU Ultralite mk3.  All combinations of MOTU Driver Buffer, JRiver Buffer, and JRiver Live Buffer have been examined and found to exhibit these behaviors, although at maximum buffer size (all 3) it is *slightly* more difficult to recreate Issue #2.

Q: is the WDM driver set to a "REALTIME" priority (I *think* the flag is KSPRIOPRITYREALTIME)?  I *know* that this is only supposed to apply to WaveRT drivers, but if it isn't, it may be worth a try.  I *think* Issue #2 is especially aggravated by the Chrome Batter Killing Bug, where it sets a callback tick at 1k/s.  I'm going to guess that somehow Chrome is getting an execution slice quickly enough and with enough priority to glitch the audio.

I will be trying a few additional sound cards and a different browser at a later date.

[Matt]

wolffe, thanks for the really great post.

We're looking into what you've said.

[bobkatz]

Well, this is an amazing development. Thank you Matt and Hendrik! and the rest of the JRiver team, of course. My main goal is getting proper convolution for playback of Youtube videos in JRiver.

Some things working, some not, and many questions (sorry).

1) Some videos are playing, but many which played when I was using the Lynx as the Windows default device are failing in video playback when I use JRiver as the default device. For example, a Toyota ad and most of the videos which YouTube recommends play back fine. But any video by walk off the earth and many more give the dreaded "sorry an error occurred." message on the video time line. As a clue, previously when I got that error, if I was using the lynx as the default device in windows, I could select a video which did play, play it momentarily, then switch to Walk off the Earth (for example) and it would wake up and play.

2) Buffer. To prevent glitches I have to go up to 50 ms or so. Hope this preserves lip sync. I'll check and report.

3) Properties on the JRiver as a default output allow setting up a default sample rate and wordlength. So what should I set? I do NOT have JRiver configured for sample rate conversion, so how can I know what the sample rate of the source video is ahead of time?


More to come, I'm still playing, so let's post for now.

[bobkatz]

Hmmmm... Walk off the Earth's video called "Walk off the Earth - are making videos" is playing in surround. 5.1 I swear. Woops, not. At least now I see separate levels on the low pass filter, indicating the JRiver XO is working. The l, r, c, ls, rs are playing identical levels. I would think there should be some way to tell JRiver that there are only 2 channels coming in but I haven't figured that out. I have to set JRiver for 10 channels for my convolver to work properly in 5.1.

Is Windows sending out a bunch of identical source channels, duplicating front to surround, etc. ?

But lip sync using this WMD method is screwed up, I'm sorry. This using convolution in JRiver as usual and yes the lpc indicator is playing and showing in the top part of JRiver.

So I guess there is uncontrollable latency between Windows playing and its input into JRiver? Oy vey.

Much more to post, still experimenting. Please excuse these multiple discovery posts.

[bobkatz]

The lip sync appears to be buffer dependent. Reducing buffer to 10 ms (which is tolerable for the moment, no glitches right now) seems to tighten the lip sync "reasonably accurate."

[)p(]

For perfect lipsync with YouTube you could also install another app that can show YouTube video and has the option to delay the video. For example I use both Plex and Kodi/xbmc and adjust the delay there and send the audio to the wdm driver. The only drawback right now is that only directsound out to the wdm driver works with those programs. Wasapi not yet.
With plex you can set a global video delay in its settings. For Kodi/xbmc you can set it for the current playing video inside the program and a global delay in an settings .ini file.

[Arindelle]

The lip sync appears to be buffer dependent. Reducing buffer to 10 ms (which is tolerable for the moment, no glitches right now) seems to tighten the lip sync "reasonably accurate."

Hey Bob. Just in case you missed this, there is another variable to set which is under Audio=>Advanced to set latency. Its really the combination of the two you need to juggle. As it is zone dependant, there is no need to monkey around with the buffer if you create a "streaming" zone. The rule for zone switch is [Name]="IPC" .

I found the video from the BBC very good to sync video, again if you missed it http://clip.dj/bbc-hd-audio-sync-test-download-mp3-mp4-bCPEidaVzQU posted by Roderick or Jmone (I forget )

There is really no need for external programs as you can get quite accurate for playback purposes without external programs IMHO.

[Al ex]

Win 8.1/64 MC 20.0.54
Just realized that my sound was set for "Realtek High Definition Audio". So I switched it to the "JRiver Media Center" Audio device.

I am now getting Blue Screen of Deaths -  3 times in a row, so I had to switch to the Realtek audio device back. 2 different error messages on the blue screen:

DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL (JRiverWDMDriver.sys)

BAD_POOL_HEADER

Hope this info helps eliminating issues with the WDM.

[BradC]

Bob, which convolver are you using?
I could not get the jriver convolver to work stutter free.

Using the voxengo pristine space vst  convolver fixes the problem, and allows me to use minimum buffer settings in jriver.

I think that the jriver convolver needs further optimisation and implement an algorithm with partitions

[larryrup]

The driver and subsequent sound is great.  Can you help with this.....whenever I start a video/movie in a VCL player (or for that matter a Cable TV browser) the win 8.1 OS switches to Media Center (the movies playing but no longer visable as the OS switched to MC window).  Happens ever time.  Even if you pause then hit play in the browser or player, Win 8.1 switches the video to the MC screen.  Any ideas how to stop this behavior?

Thanks

Larry

[LocutusEstBorg]

Please provide a way to disable the auto shut-off feature of the WDM driver. I want my output WASAPI device to be permanently locked in exclusive mode with an open stream. Can you provide a way to make it fail with an error if exclusive mode cannot be obtained? I find that most of the time my output device is in shared mode while using the WDM driver (I can adjust the volume using the Windows mixer).

Can you provide an option to run a "silent stream" that always keeps the WDM device active as if a shared mode stream was open, similar to running AVR Audio Guard on the WDM device? If I rapidly generate multiple independent sounds, such as clicking the Windows volume slider of the WDM device repeatedly, only the first sound is played. The remaining are not audible. If I use AVR Audio Guard to keep a stream open then all the clicks are heard.

[LocutusEstBorg]

Closing the JRiver main Window even while Media Server is running causes the WDM audio to stop.

[LocutusEstBorg]

When using WDM, I have crackling / popping / stuttering every once in a while when using both ASIO and WASAPI output. Increasing the buffer and live latency even to the maximum value doesn't fix it.

[Matt]

When using WDM, I have crackling / popping / stuttering every once in a while when using both ASIO and WASAPI output. Increasing the buffer and live latency even to the maximum value doesn't fix it.

Please try increasing buffering in Options > Audio > Advanced > Live playback latency

[LocutusEstBorg]

Please try increasing buffering in Options > Audio > Advanced > Live playback latency

I have maxed that out, as I mentioned in my previous post. (Increasing it doesn't seem to add any latency anywhere. Sounds still play instantly.)

Sometimes the music keeps playing for 5-6 seconds after I've closed the source application.

[sema]

I am having problems with skips, crackling etc., too. In my case it seems to have to do with convolution. I use Acourate-generated filters and without them deactivated WASAPI loopback as well as WDM input works flawlessly. With convolution active (digital X/O for 2.2 output combined with all the other good stuff acourate does in the acourate-generated filter) I always get artifacts.

With the WDM input I tried different combinations of sound device buffer and live playback latency (high/low, low/high, high/high, low/low, lowest/lowest, medium/medium...), but to no avail. Sometimes the issues were more pronounced, sometimes less, but invariably I am getting artifacts that make the result less than pleasant.

I never got WASAPI loopback to work flawlessly, either, and gave up on it long ago. See here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87836.msg602764#msg602764

I was quite happy back when the ASIO soundcard emulation was implemented in MC19, as since then I can listen with Fidelify flawlessly (ASIO output to MC). But Fidelify is not really the most user friendly program and I was looking forward to the new WDM function so I can use the original Spotify client. Just upgraded euphorically to MC20. But now I am a bit frustrated and back to using Fidelify as before... :-(

Bob: Besides your latency issues, do you get flawless sound with convolution through WDM input?

[mwillems]

It's possible to get convolution working with the WDM driver, but you will need relatively short/low tap convolution filters in my experience.  With low tap filters (less than 10k taps) it works perfectly fine for me in my main setup (just with added latency), but when the convolution filter length pushes past about 10K taps, occasional artifacts start appearing, and if the convolution filter gets long enough (more than 30k taps) playback doesn't work very well at all. The exact thresholds will be dependent on your exact setup as it seems to vary with different hardware (I get different results with different sound cards on the same computer with the same filters). 

But the basic principal is there: try using shorter filters and see if that helps.  If you can't reduce your filter length, it may be (as some folks upthread have found) that a partitioned convolution plugin would work better in this context, but would obviously be significantly more CPU intensive.

[sema]

Ok thanks! I'll give it a try with shorter filters and post the results...

[CubicZirconia]

I have a question. Set up a zone with low audio latency and buffer size. Trying to figure out how to set up a zoneswitch rule so that external devices using MC20 WDM as audio output device would automatically go to the low latency zone.

had a quick browse on the zoneswitch rule selections, did not find an obvious solution.

more technical questions on this:
1. correct me if I m wrong please. looks this feature largely supersedes the live loopback feature?
2. how do the low latency setting and small buffer settings affect the DSP which I assume is a source of latency and may require a certain amount of buffering of data for computation purpose?

Thanks in advance. and thanks for such a great product!

[mwillems]

I have a question. Setup a zone with low audio latency and buffer size. Trying to figure out how to set up a zoneswitch rule so that external devices using MC20 WDM as audio output device would automatically go to the low latency zone.

had a quick browse on the zoneswitch rule selections, did not find an obvious solution.

Thanks

Check out this thread for two sample rules: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=93043

[CubicZirconia]

wow, customer support on Saturday, within minutes!

I was actually updating my original post with the following:

more technical questions on this:
1. correct me if I m wrong please. looks this feature largely supersedes the live loopback feature?
2. how do the low latency setting and small buffer settings affect the DSP which I assume is a source of latency and may require a certain amount of buffering of data for computation purpose?

any pointers?

[mwillems]

wow, customer support on Saturday, within minutes!

I'm just a user like you, but I've spent a lot of time with the WDM driver 

I was actually updating my original post with the following:

more technical questions on this:
1. correct me if I m wrong please. looks this feature largely supersedes the live loopback feature?

Yes more or less.

2. how do the low latency setting and small buffer settings affect the DSP which I assume is a source of latency and may require a certain amount of buffering of data for computation purpose?

DSP is not necessarily the source of the latency.  There will be some irreducible driver/buffering latency even with no DSP in the chain.  The buffer settings determine that minimum latency. To the extent DSP needs additional latency it generally "takes what it needs."  You're safe using the lowest buffer settings that work without dropouts.

The only exception are long/high tap convolution filters, but those may not work well in a WDM/loopback application regardless of buffer settings.

[CubicZirconia]

Thank you very much.

I more or less got it work. followed that thread exactly and set up [Name]="Ipc" to the low latency zone and -[Name]="Ipc" to the standard zone. So now movies and music plays from standard zone but if I play a pink noise from REW to MC20 driver, the low latency zone plays the audio.

interestingly, when the low latency zone is playing, "Overview" does not show it as the "current" zone, even though the tone is played to its designated output device and the spectrum.

I'm just a user like you, but I've spent a lot of time with the WDM driver 


Yes more or less.

DSP is not necessarily the source of the latency.  There will be some irreducible driver/buffering latency even with no DSP in the chain.  The buffer settings determine that minimum latency. To the extent DSP needs additional latency it generally "takes what it needs."  You're safe using the lowest buffer settings that work without dropouts.

The only exception are long/high tap convolution filters, but those may not work well in a WDM/loopback application regardless of buffer settings.

[Snowmonkey]

I've had the same problem as mentioned in earlier posts on this thread. No sound from Youtube with MC 20 set as default audio device and Cirrus Logic CS4208 [WASAPI] set as audio device in MC. Problem is fixed by setting Cirrus Logic CS4208 [Direct Sound] as audio device in MC, but doesn't that result in lower overall quality audio output from MC?

[prerich]

Jimh or Matt, I've used JRiver for a long time and I've used the WDM driver before, but I updated and it won't let me select JRiver 20 WDM as the default (in windows). Set as default is greyed out. It has never done this before.

[JimH]

Did you try reinstalling?

[prerich]

Did you try reinstalling?

as we speak...I'll let you know how it turns out.

[JimH]

and rebooting.

[prerich]

and rebooting.

No joy, set as default is still greyed out.

[JimH]

User level?

[prerich]

Administrator

[prerich]

JimH, it seems as if it's not recognized as an active sound card....no meter level to the right (like all active sound cards have). Oh and it's not disabled.

[prerich]

User level?

This is what it looks like now - I even went back to version .63 with no joy.  It seems as if the WDM driver is broken now.

[prerich]

Any update on this issue?  ?

[Arindelle]

I can't read the text in the windows box, too blurry.

In the screen shot, is the driver not visible at all or is it visible and you can't set it as a default. If it is visible you could try changing the default to something totally different. Then seeing if it can be selected after reopening the window. Doubt this would work though.

I haven't heard of anyone having this issue. So I'd guess its the driver thats screwed up either the install was interrupted, or there is an error in the windows registry. I would not just uninstall the JRiver version, I would uninstall the driver manually and even clean the registry of it.

I bet even on the uninstall you did it was still resident in Windows and reinstalling is not puttin the driver back because it thinks its already installed??

Might not be the best way to approach it, but probably simpler to just start from a clean slate.

[mojave]

Any update on this issue?  ?

I tested on my system since I also have the Essence ST and H6 and it works fine.
Here are some suggestions:
1.  Try setting a different audio device as default other than the one already selected and then try the JRiver WDM driver again.
2.  Do a System Restore back to when it worked.
3.  Go to Device Manager, select "sound, video, and game controllers" and uninstall "JRiver Media Center 20". Reboot and reinstall JRiver and the WDM driver.

[mojave]

By the way, I never update the WDM driver unless I see it mentioned in the Release Notes.

[prerich]

Yeah, I won't hit express mode ever again!

[prerich]

I can't read the text in the windows box, too blurry.

In the screen shot, is the driver not visible at all or is it visible and you can't set it as a default. If it is visible you could try changing the default to something totally different. Then seeing if it can be selected after reopening the window. Doubt this would work though.

I haven't heard of anyone having this issue. So I'd guess its the driver thats screwed up either the install was interrupted, or there is an error in the windows registry. I would not just uninstall the JRiver version, I would uninstall the driver manually and even clean the registry of it.

I bet even on the uninstall you did it was still resident in Windows and reinstalling is not puttin the driver back because it thinks its already installed??

Might not be the best way to approach it, but probably simpler to just start from a clean slate.

the first three are are a HDMI projector, second the essence speaker out, third digital out, and the last is the JRiver wdm.  You see the bars out to the side (level indicators), those should also show on the WDM driver...they are now gone.  Another strange thing, it won't let me select another device as the default device. 

@Mojave ....did everything my friend, rolled it back to the 22nd, uninstalled the driver, rebooted reinstalled JRiver with the driver....still no joy. Man at work I never opt for express installs! This one has reminded me why! Everything was working so well too !!!!! I guess I'll have to play it old school until I hear else wise.

[6233638]

The WDM driver should shut down after a few minutes of silence. It won't shut down immediately as to not disrupt playback when you just pause briefly.

It seems to shut down after 3 seconds of silence here - which is short enough that if I seek during a YouTube video, it drops the connection.

It would be really nice if this was a preference we could set ourselves.
I understand the reasons why you might want it set to only 3 seconds, but I'd prefer to keep the connection open a lot longer than that.
EDIT: Sometimes this results in no audio being played until I seek again.
 
 
When doing a lot of testing to try and get audio in sync with video when using the WDM driver (which was possible!) it seems that any device buffer longer than 10ms is what causes the sound to "crackle" on my system when the WDM driver starts playback.
25ms occasionally does it, while 50ms+ always crackles at the start of playback.
This seems to be completely unrelated to the live playback latency setting.

Live Playback Latency seems to help prevent pops/clicks during playback however.
But I need to keep that at the "minimum" setting to keep things in sync. (and the playback device at 5ms via WASAPI)
 
For my purposes, the WDM driver is mostly going to be used for streaming live video and processing the audio (e.g. adding dynamic range compression via the Adaptive Volume DSP) so it's more important that the audio is in sync than there being an occasional pop/click.
If I was using it for music, I'd keep the device buffer set to 10ms to eliminate the "crackle" when a track changes (though it may not be enough to avoid pops/clicks on some systems) and set the live input latency as high as possible.


As general tips for keeping latency down, don't enable any "unnecessary" DSPs.
Just having Output Format enabled was adding latency.
On my system at least, using it to resample was out of the question.

VST plug-ins may or may not add noticeable latency.
I'm able to keep Redline Monitor enabled as it adds <1ms latency.
Voxengo Elephant added 20-25ms latency.

[culliganman]

I can't read the text in the windows box, too blurry.

In the screen shot, is the driver not visible at all or is it visible and you can't set it as a default. If it is visible you could try changing the default to something totally different. Then seeing if it can be selected after reopening the window. Doubt this would work though.

I haven't heard of anyone having this issue. So I'd guess its the driver thats screwed up either the install was interrupted, or there is an error in the windows registry. I would not just uninstall the JRiver version, I would uninstall the driver manually and even clean the registry of it.

I bet even on the uninstall you did it was still resident in Windows and reinstalling is not puttin the driver back because it thinks its already installed??

Might not be the best way to approach it, but probably simpler to just start from a clean slate. 

I had a similar problem that I was writing up but this helped me to solve it. Thanks.
My problem was this:

I have a MC 20 20.0.63 on two different laptops.
The #2 laptop has been restored with the #1 library so I assume all settings are the same.
On #2 in Windows Control Panel > Sound, I wanted to set Media Center as the default device but I cannot see it to set it.
I have looked in Windows Device manager\ Sound, vidoe and game controllers,  and I see MC device is working properly. (or so it said!)
I have reinstalled and watched it say it was installing the WDM driver.

After reading your post I uninstalled the MC driver and reinstalled MC.
Problem solved! Thanks!