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[Frosch]

This is my first post on this forum and I know that this question has been asked before but I cannot trace any solution for the Mac/OSX version of JRiver MC:

I am in the process of changing from Itunes to JRiver MC for Mac.
The Auto Import feature of MC is great and it took MC only a couple of minutes to create the new library for my abt 65000 songs.
JRemote works great on my Iphone and Ipad (so much better than Apple Remote!) and streaming to my Stereo Amp/Apple TV with Airplay is also phantastic.

However I would also like to import - or  even better: sync - the playlists, ratings and especially playcount from/with Itunes (Files are still being stored in the iTunes directory and I continue to sync my Iphone with iTunes)

There appears to be a tool called MCIS available for this sync task but only for Windows and not for MAC OSX.

Are there any solutions which I have overlookes?

Jens

[JimH]

bump

[Frosch]

bump

 ?

[BartMan01]

"bump" the post back to the top.

There is no solution I am aware of at this time.  It would probably be pretty 'easy' to write one using Automator and/or Apple Script (compared to what it took to create MCiS for Windows), but no one has done so yet.

[Frosch]

Thanks for the info Bartman,

what a pity that there is no solution for the "MAC OSX only" user available.

I am not happy at all with the look and feel of Itunes and don't like Apple Remote either and after a couple of days trial there is no doubt
that MC plus JRmote is far superior to the Itunes plus Apple Remote combo.

Despite this I will probably (have to) stay with Itunes/Apple remote simply because

- I am working a lot with playlists and playcounts and see no chance to transfer this from iTunes to MC for Mac (although MCs auto import feature is great for keeping the itunes and MC Librarie (songs) synchronized)
- I see no simple way to keep my Iphone / Ipad synched with MC for Mac (or did I miss something?). For various reasons (apps etc) I will hav to continue to sync the ipHone/iPad with Itunes in any case, so the perfect solution would really be a Itunes playlist/playcount sync feature with Itunes.


I guess I might not be the only Mac user who is tempted to buy JRiver MC (ok JRemote I had to buy already) but will eventually not switch to MC for Mac due to the above reasons.

Jens




 

[arin]

About playlists and playcounts I understand your points as I had the same problem...
But then tried to follow the advice of some other guys here and used the workaround of writing a tag I didn't use (like BPM or Comment or Group) to all the files in a playlist in iTunes and then import those files in MC making sure it reads that tag, then grouping all the files with that tag and creating a playlist in MC.
Not what you call a simple and intuitive way to do that...but once imported the playlist I cared about I could quit iTunes once and for all!
Hope this could help you in some ways...

arin

[Frosch]

Hope this could help you in some ways...

arin

Thanks Arin,

certainly I would be able to transfer playlists and playcounts manually to MC by using the workaround you have described (btw http://www.tune-instructor.de/com/ is a great tool to write this tags)
but this would require a lot of work and would only work in the Itunes --> MC direction, so this is far from being a perfect solution.

IMHO the Itunes <--> MC sync feature is really a "must have" especially for the MAC version but this is ofcourse something the persons in charge  @ JRiver have to decide.


Jens

[JimH]

Apple long ago made their devices impossible for companies like JRiver to support.  A case about this issue was in trial recently.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/12/7385577/Apple-DRM-trial-far-from-over

You have Apple to thank for the problem.

[Frosch]

Apple long ago made their devices impossible for companies like JRiver to support.  A case about this issue was in trial recently.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/12/7385577/Apple-DRM-trial-far-from-over

You have Apple to thank for the problem.

Interesting reading...

I am no software developer but there is a - third party - solution for the Itunes <--> MC sync available for MC Windows version and there is plenty of software around - even in Itunes Store - which is obviously writing changes into the iTunes library files.

I assume the "impossibilty" you are mentioning is rather a legal threat for competing mediaplayers than a technical problem...

Jens

[JimH]

I suggest you do an Internet search.

[BartMan01]

I am no software developer but there is a - third party - solution for the Itunes <--> MC sync available for MC Windows version and there is plenty of software around - even in Itunes Store - which is obviously writing changes into the iTunes library files.

Writing to the iTunes library is one thing - Apple fully supports that through API and scripting (better on the Mac than on the PC).  It is writing directly to the devices (iPad, iPhone) that is the problem.  It would be possible for JRiver to write a tool to sync the libraries, they have just been burned one too many times in the past by Apple changing the rules as they see fit and breaking things.  I would not expect JRiver to pick up that torch again any time soon.  Their plate is full already.

On the Windows side, there is a third party program MCiS (MC iTunes Syncronizer) that works fairly well.  My main library is still in Windows, so I keep my master iTunes library there as well and keep them in sync with this tool.

On the Mac side, with Apple Script and Automator it is VERY possible to write a tool to move data back and forth between MC and iTunes but no one has done so and published the tool for public consumption.  At this point you can either wait for someone else to write such a tool, or you can learn basic Apple Script and Automator (it really shouldn't take much for this task) and write one yourself.  The people around here that I know have the skills and would like such a tool just don't have the time.  If this was a few years ago, I would probably have written one myself (and I would have to learn the tools to do it).  Problem is I am not at a point in my life where I have any free time to do that, and I really don't have enough need for this to make it worth putting other priorities aside.

[BartMan01]

One additional note here - keep an eye on the JRemote app.  Right now it does a good job of playing directly to your iOS devices straight from MC for audio.  Video also works, but is not bulletproof for me at this point.  One of the items on the road-map for that app is the ability to cache content on the device.  Once that is out you could drop iTunes and just use MC directly and cache the stuff you want off-line.

If you open up the ports needed in your router, you can also use JRemote to stream content to your device away from home.

[Frosch]

Bartman,

thanks a lot for the detailed reply.

Jens

[Frosch]

Ok,

In short, any "OS X / iOS only" user (i.e. Mac Computer plus iPhone/iPod mobile device) can expect
a great improvement in various aspects by moving from Itunes plus Apple Remote to the JRiver plus JRmote combo

BUT

he/she has to accept that

a) the Apple mobile devices (iPhone and/or Ipod) cannot be synced/loaded with JRiver MC for Mac
b) Playlists, Playcounts, Ratings cannot be synced  between JRiver MC for Mac and iTunes
c) he/she should not expect above features to be on JRiver' roadmap for new MC for Mac features for the reasons explained although at least b) above is no technical challenge for JRiver
d) a solution might be a third party OSX tool with the same functionality as MCIS (MC iTunes Synchronizer for Windows) but such a tool is not available


 

Jens

[JimH]

Sync with iTunes if you need to or buy an Android.

Use MC for everything else.

Both players can watch the same folders and import the same music.

[Frosch]

Sync with iTunes if you need to or buy an Android.

This is just another way of saying a) above
 I do not intend to buy an android just because MC for Mac doesn't support my new iphone and my ipod classic. I know these are not the most audiphile mobile devices but good enough for me.

Use MC for everything else.

Yes, as I said it's great as long as you do not want to hear music on your apple mobile devices.

Both players can watch the same folders and import the same music.

As you can see from my initial posting I am well aware of this, the auto import feature is very nice in this repect.



Jim,
you and your team have really created a great piece of software and I would immediately buy  MC if I would still work in a Windows environment.

I also read your statement about JRiver's business model and I do unterstand the difficulties of keeping MC uptodate in a quickly changing environment and your motivation for not having any kind of official roadmap.

However it is probably naive as a MC for Mac newbie to. expect a frank and open statement from JRiver addressing the shortcomings of. MC for Mac (which even with the shortcomings is still very good).
Unfortunately your own postings in this thread have also not been particularly helpful in this respect.

The fact that there is no separate Wiki for the Mac version makes it even more difficult to detect the differences in the versions.

Jens

[dfortney]

I too would like proper playlist sync support with iTunes...

Is it that the playlists are stored in the iTunes library file 'iTunes Library.itl' and there is no parser that can read this file outside of iTunes itself?  Is it some encrypted binary format that no one has reverse engineered?  I guess I am really just curious where this playlist data lives and what makes it so hard to read?  I wouldn't mind writing a script or application to try and read this data if I had the specs on this file format and on the other end what the format of a file that MC would expect to read from.  Writing a simple command line adapter shouldn't take long once these formats are understood.

Looks like the xml file lists an array of playlists identifying the tracks by 'Track ID' which are also defined in the same file however I only see it enumerating the static playlists, not the smart playlists.  If static playlists are all that is needed this doesn't look like a huge problem however if the smart playlists are also needed that could be much harder since these are evaluated during runtime and not in the xml.  They would also need to be constantly updated as MC is playing.  Which type of playlist are you most interested in?

[JimH]

I'll let you find your own way then.  To summarize, MC won't solve all your problems but using it with iTunes should work.  Maybe not for you.

[Frosch]

@ dfortney

Mainly smart playlists.

[dfortney]

hmmm... seems like those would require direct internal support from MC20.  If it were just static playlists it doesn't look very difficult.

[BartMan01]

I'll let you find your own way then.  To summarize, MC won't solve all your problems but using it with iTunes should work.  Maybe not for you.

I think the big missing piece here that people are looking for help with is 'using it with iTunes'.  There is no way on the Mac side (that I am aware of) to keep MC and iTunes synced up.  On the Windows side there is the MCiS tool.

[JimH]

I think the big missing piece here that people are looking for help with is 'using it with iTunes'.  There is no way on the Mac side (that I am aware of) to keep MC and iTunes synced up.  On the Windows side there is the MCiS tool.

I'm aware that it is a problem.  I just think it is an Apple problem, not a JRiver problem.  If they made the devices open to other software, we'd probably support them.

Someone who has gone through the iTunes to JRiver transition might be able to make the process less painful by writing up their notes here.  It would be much appreciated. 

[Tim-Ann]

Hi there,

Syncing between iTunes and MC20 for the Mac I don't think can be done but bringing in your Apple Playlists is possible if you look through my post you should find my rants, and many peoples offers of help i finally sorted it using I think it was text editor or Notepad and it was pretty easy what i have learnt is to put my Music in its own folder in the Mac Music folder and to tell iTunes Preferences/Advanced tell it not to copy fils to iTunes media folder and for MC20 to do the same.

So when I then make a backup of my iTunes playlists and save it as a Plain Text i can do a batch change of the route/headings, which then means I can successfully import the playlist into MC20.

Perhaps the posts below can head some light on how to do it, I managed it so there's hope for others.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?action=profile;u=103880;sa=showPosts

Tim.

[dfortney]

Thanks Tim unfortunately I think the smart playlists are the problem here not the static playlists.  Those are already in the simple to parse iTunes Library xml file.  For me I only have 2 static playlists which I rarely listen to anyway, it is the smart playlists that I use most.  Regarding iTunes sync or migration it couldn't have been too much easier to be honest, just auto import and done.  The only trick for me was to change the default import settings to not move the files from where they already are and then understanding about the volume leveling differences between the two.

[Tim-Ann]

Hi there,

Must admit I've more or less stuck with MC20 and even ditched FLAK to save space on MacBook and Mini drives and just use Apple Lossless of course MC20 helps in its ability to control outputs.  But once I had imported a Playlist I then did some thing to convert it to a Smart list I think I've made sure all my iTunes playlist were 5 star think that helped and just looking at MC20 now I can see my Smartlists are all 5 stars sorry if this is not being helpful but I did get there in the end.  Think yourself lucky getting a playlist to transfer to LMS was even worse.

My biggest problem was having MC20 on 4 Macs and on 2 PC's so trying to make sure they were all the same took a bit of time and a steep learning curve for me, finally I decided to go down to 2 Macs the Mini being the music server and the PC's just for BackUps as thus far I cannot load MC20 for the PC onto my WHS 2011 server and use it to stream to my devices.

But all in all it does he job on the Mini really well despite the work or should I say learning curve I had to go through.

Thanks JRiver and good luck dfotney, you'll get there.

Tim.

[Frosch]

Many thanks for the various contributions.

Why are we discussing this?

The main reason for my initial posting (request for Itunes <--> MC for Mac Sync) was the fact that I am using Apple mobile devices for listening to music.


1. If it would just be about MC for Mac as media player for driving my B&W speakers at home I would immediately switch to MC for Mac plus JRemote and forget about Itunes for syncing music with my mobile devices:

a) MC has no problems in using the folders Itunes is using for the physical storage of the media files (mp3s etc, not the Library) and is perfect in this respect:
    - MC's auto import feature is great:
    - it virtually only took a couple of minutes for MC to create its own library from my (quite well tagged) files
    - MC's auto import feature will keep the media files always in sync with Itunes (since it is virtually the same)

b) I would definitely be prepared to spend a couple of hours in order to transfer my ratings and playcounts if this would only be a one time task
    (my smart playlists are mainly based on ratings, playcount and last time played and could easily be reproduced in MC for Mac) and not a permanent sync task.
    Any help for this task either in the Wiki or on Interact would really be appreciated.

2. BUT (and this appears to be the main problem) I will continue listening to music on my Iphone and Ipod and therefore I am in need of

   a) transferring the information about the songs played (no of plays for each song since last sync of mobile device) on the Iphone/Ipod back to MC for Mac
       (otherwise for example MC might still regard songs as not played although I have played them on a mobile device)

   AND

   b) somehow (doesn't have to be Itunes but could also be directly with MC for Mac) loading songs onto my Apple mobile devices.


Since a MC <--> iTunes sync 3rdparty  tool is not on the market and JRiver - for good reasons - don't want to burn their fingers in implementing this feature into MC the only other solution for my request would be direct music transfer from MC for Mac to the iPod/iphone which will be played by using a non apple music app (which  could be a next generation JRemote) on the iphone/ipad.

Would this be possible without violating Apple's copyright regime?
 

Jens

[BartMan01]

Syncing between iTunes and MC20 for the Mac I don't think can be done

It can easily be done:
iTunes is extremely script-able (http://dougscripts.com/itunes/ for some examples).
MC has a pretty powerful API (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/API).

All it takes is coding the interface between the two.  Not a completely trivial task, but very possible without being a programming genius.  If you ever had any desire to learn to script or code for OSX, this would be a good place to start. No better way to learn to code than to solve a problem doing it.

[gvanbrunt]

For anyone that complains about MC not syncing with Apple products: Apple is a closed ecosystem. This is deliberate and publicly known. It is part of their business model. Apple products only work with Apple products. They use this model to generate income. They also like to use proprietary hardware like their iphone/ipod connectors and Thunderbolt. They use this to generate income as well. All of this information has been widely circulated by Apple to it's shareholders. If you look around you can find financial reports etc that outright states this information.

This is great because Apple products "just work" with Apple products. On the other hand, they DO NOT just work with everything else. In fact Apple goes to great lengths to block certain things from happening. This includes syncing with their devices. The fact that a multi-billion dollar class action lawsuit exists around syncing proves that fact. Apple outright blocks it from happening. And if you find a way around it, they will block it again as soon as they find out.

So if you want interoperability, stop using Apple products or stop complaining. Apple wants it Apple only and that is what you paid for. If you don't like lock in, then Apple isn't the product for you. No one is saying Apple is wrong, what they decide to do is up to them. It's their right to lock customers in. In fact the lawsuit mentioned was just settled and that is exactly what the judge said. But to buy into a model like that and then complain that some other company should figure out how to work around that is just silly. JRiver has limited resources and they are not going to spend them in battle with Apple. They would lose. In fact, because the matter is now settled in court, no company would be able to do what you want. Not MS, not Google, No one. Even with their resources.

So you have 2 choices:
- stop using an Apple handheld device
- live with the fact that you can't do a sync in one click. There have been a few posts here about how to do this, and there is the possibility of someone writing an app or script. JRiver isn't going to get involved here as doing so could very well get them into hot water with Apple.

And there is a 3rd option as well: start a petition etc with other Apple users to complain about their practices. Most of the efforts have failed already, but you are welcome to try. Personally I think the most effective message is to hit them in the pocket book by not purchasing their products. That's not likely as they make some nice stuff, but we'll have to live with the shortcomings.

[Frosch]

For anyone that complains about MC not syncing with Apple products: .....

Sorry I am not complaining about MC not syncing with Apple products., as you can easily see from my previous posts.
I have Apple products already and I am presently trying MC for Mac, so I want to know if MC for Mac works well with Apple mobile devices.

That's all.

[gvanbrunt]

Sorry I am not complaining about MC not syncing with Apple products., as you can easily see from my previous posts.
I have Apple products already and I am presently trying MC for Mac, so I want to know if MC for Mac works well with Apple mobile devices.

Fair enough. Maybe complain was the wrong choice of words. You didn't really do that. There have been a pile of threads here in the vein though and this one seems to be heading in that direction.

To answer your question though: Any non Apple product will will have difficulty keeping data in sync between an Apple mobile device. You have to sync to iTunes, then sync to JRiver. If you want playstats, this sin't going to be a one time thing. And there currently isn't any tools to do it out of the box. You will have to roll your own or wait for someone else to do so. Even then, it isn't going to be a simple one click operation. Probably not all that complicated, but it will likely take a minute or two to get it going each time.