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[JimH]

We're working on something for playback that I'd like to describe so you can help us fine tune it.

Background
Play Doctor has been a feature of the last several versions of MC.  It's an easy way to play an artist or genre of your choice, but it uses this "seed" list to find other similar tracks, and add them, in order to build a broader list of music.  You could think of it as a sort of radio station based around music you like.

Performer Store (in the MC tree) has a library of 16 million tracks that you can play on demand.  The tracks come from MediaNet.  If you subscribe you get full tracks.  Otherwise, you get 30 second samples.

So, between the two, we have a playback method and a large database of music.

Our Plan
We're planning to combine Play Doctor with a streaming service, ours or another, so that you can start playing music from your library, but based on your choices, we'll add in music from a service.  We're also considering Tidal, possibly others.

You will be able to set the percentages, so you might have 10% local/90% streaming, or 50% local/50% streaming.

We think this will give you the best of both worlds.  Your local collection lets you quickly identify the type of music you like, and the streaming service gives you other similar music that you don't have.

[marko]

I dismissed Performer Store and removed it from my tree as it would not allow me to participate from the UK.

I admit that since those years ago, I have never revisited. Am I allowed in now?

I am not interested in messing around with proxy servers to trick the system that I am not where I really am. I shouldn't need to do that. My money is as good and honest as anyone's living in America.

If you set this up somehow so that it is all inclusive, I would consider a subscription.

[JimH]

The rules aren't ours.  But I think you just need a US zip code.

[~OHM~]

I have no need or want to use a paid subscription for music. I hope Play Doctor will be able to play 100% local files after the merge.

[JimH]

I have no need or want to use a paid subscription for music. I hope Play Doctor will be able to play 100% local files after the merge.

It will.

[marko]

The rules aren't ours.  But I think you just need a US zip code.

Which I don't have.

I'm not really up to speed with the industry, but when you say "We're also considering Tidal, possibly others.", what's the possiblity/probability that this might include something your users outside the USA might be able to access?

[JimH]

I'm going to split off the streaming discussion.  It's not directly relevant to the new Play Doctor.

Think of the streaming option as an abstract concept, not a specific service.

Again, we don't set the rules for where each service is available.  The content owners usually have agreements for limited portions of the globe, so the services that license them must license them in each of many regions.

[ssands]

FWIW, I don't subscribe to any streaming services (and probably won't). I use Spotify to check some tunes/artists out, but that is the free version. So, that feature is not of interest to me.

Just another data point.

[mwillems]

Which I don't have.

I'm not really up to speed with the industry, but when you say "We're also considering Tidal, possibly others.", what's the possiblity/probability that this might include something your users outside the USA might be able to access?

Tidal is what Wimp (EU) is called in the States, so depending on the details it may be available in the EU as well.

[mojave]

I'm not really up to speed with the industry, but when you say "We're also considering Tidal, possibly others.", what's the possiblity/probability that this might include something your users outside the USA might be able to access?

"TIDAL is available in the U.S., Canada, the UK, Ireland, Finland, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg." It is available as WiMP in Denmark, Germany, Norway, Poland, and Sweden.
http://www.aspiro.com/tidal/
http://about.wimpmusic.com/wweb/index/

[CountryBumkin]

I think this is a great idea (if the pricing is reasonable). I'm interested.
I would love it use my current music collection along with the "ratings" I assign to them (as 623.. mentioned) and using the genre I select, to find the kind of music I like.

So I would use this service to find (for example) new "Blues" music that match (or are most similar) the current Blues music in my library with a rating of 4 stars or higher.

[marko]

"TIDAL is available in the U.S., Canada, the UK, Ireland, Finland, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg." It is available as WiMP in Denmark, Germany, Norway, Poland, and Sweden.
http://www.aspiro.com/tidal/
http://about.wimpmusic.com/wweb/index/

Attempting to read between Jim's lines, I am guessing that while the service may be available in said global areas, JRiver would be required to pay for separate licenses for each of those areas, and as there may not be enough of a customer database in areas other than the USA to make this financially viable for them, we're out.

Maybe Tidal will work. Will wait and see. I miss the last.fm entries we used to have access to before they (last.fm) withdrew access.

-marko

[ssands]

... I am guessing that while the service may be available in said global areas, JRiver would be required to pay for separate licenses for each of those areas, and as there may not be enough of a customer database in areas other than the USA to make this financially viable for them, we're out.

Licensing determines what service is available in what country. It's a set of complex legal agreements between the streaming service and the rights holders of the music.

I'm also pretty sure it would be dependent (ie available) depending on what services you would subscribe to. I don't foresee JRiver paying for any part of the service. My guess is they would access it based on your subscription.

[glynor]

I think this is a good idea, worth pursuing and trying out.

I don't know if I'd use it.  Certainly not with Performer store, as I too am on this team:

I have no need or want to use a paid subscription for music.

However, it might be very popular (even with my wife) if you can manage to access someone's API that does free ad-supported streaming.  I'd use it some then too, if the algorithm worked well enough.

Another thought: It would be slick if you could enable it much like a Shuffle mode.  So, whatever file listing you play from (an Artist, Genre, or Smartlist, for example) is automatically used as the set rules for files that can be included criteria for the local percentage of the files (or heavily biased to use them, anyway).  Like a streaming shuffle.

[glynor]

I am guessing that while the service may be available in said global areas, JRiver would be required to pay for separate licenses for each of those areas

I doubt seriously that it is an issue of what JRiver will or will not pay (with the recognition that they aren't bleeding money like Apple).

As others pointed out, international music licensing is (intentionally) incredibly complex.  Media companies have interlocking sets of agreements which vary country-by-country.  Eg: In country A Sony might have an agreement with streaming service Q that they have exclusive access to their catalog, but only if they comply with stipulations X, Y, and Z (one of which is that Sony must approve any new API licensees).  In country B they have a similar agreement with a completely different service, and this one has no API and no third-party clients of any kind.  In country G they have no exclusivity, but there's some most-favored nation clause on pricing in their agreements so the fees are flat and fixed at prices only massive services can justify.  And, so on and so forth.  And then each music company has their own licenses, and oh yeah, there's ASCAP and the performance rights groups too to deal with.

And, many of the services, of course, have no public APIs at all.

Private deals for closed API access with a streaming service are going to be a tough sale, because they're going to see JRiver as competition of a sort.  The same reason Twitter doesn't want (and is trying to kill) third-party "traditional" clients.  If they let you access their (valuable) content, you have to bring something to the table.  That's why they'll allow products that "add to" their service, but not directly compete with their own clients.  If you aren't Apple or Facebook and your userbase isn't massive (and locked in), then they don't have to pay attention to you and just give it to you.  Their goal isn't collecting five pence from a few developers.  Their goal is getting in front of huge numbers of consumers, while retaining their own branding and platform (so they don't become just one more radio station in a sea of free radio).

To even negotiate most of those deals, you'd need an army of high-priced lawyers to travel to Bermuda and meet with people and...

No, they need streaming services with public APIs, if they're going to be big and international, I'd guess.  Could get lucky I suppose, but even if so, I'd be cautious that it might not last.  Even the ones with public APIs are pretty likely to close up tight if/when they get huge, and close up shop if they don't when the VC money stops coming in.

So... That's a frightening prospect.

[marko]

Thanks glynor. It's a complete nonsense from a consumer point of view. I told Netflix the same as I cancelled my subscription. They're all as bad as each other and it ticks me off.

[MrHaugen]

If it worked with Spotify, I would be all over it. It might renew my love for music in MC. But other services might not have the type of audio I use the most (educational audio, not music), and I don't want to pay for two services. I'm also a bit skeptical when it comes to other services accessibility on other devices. Like phones (offline mode), receivers, smart TV's etc. Spotify are pretty well represented here. Not sure about the competition.

[6233638]

I think this is a good idea, worth pursuing and trying out.
I don't know if I'd use it.  Certainly not with Performer store, as I too am on this team:

I'm of a similar opinion. I really liked the idea of a lossless CD-quality streaming service until I tried it.
Now if I had access to the entire Tidal library and was able to select albums/artists to add to my library and have them treated as though they were sitting on a drive, that would be completely different.
But I really don't care for the interface these services provide, and won't be subscribing any time soon.

Accessing a much wider selection of tracks in Play Doctor would be neat, but I doubt that I'd sign up for the service just to use that.
It's also worth mentioning that Tidal apparently only has 12k subscribers worldwide right now, which is less than a thousandth of what Spotify currently has.

[TCube]

Hello
We would call it - "une usine à gaz" here.
Anyway, possible ... But what's JRiver business plan ?
I think if Tidal is looking 4 an entry in the States looks promising.
TC

[JimH]

Don't get fixated on whether it's Tidal or whether it costs money. 

Imagine that the whole universe of music is available.  Would it be interesting to add some of it to your local files when you're using Play Doctor?

Licensing requirements make it much more expensive to select precise tracks than to listen to a radio-like stream where you can choose the type of music, but not the tracks.  This is what allows services like Pandora to offer free options.

[mwillems]

Don't get fixated on whether it's Tidal or whether it costs money. 

Imagine that the whole universe of music is available.  Would it be interesting to add some of it to your local files when you're using Play Doctor?

Licensing requirements make it much more expensive to select precise tracks than to listen to a radio-like stream where you can choose the type of music, but not the tracks.  This is what allows services like Pandora to offer free options.

That's right; if you're doing radio-like broadcast, you basically just have to deal with ASCAP/SoundExchange (in the U.S. anyway), and as I recall it's a compulsory license (meaning you don't necessarily have to negotiate, you can just pay the published rates).

[marko]

Don't get fixated on whether it's Tidal or whether it costs money. 

Imagine that the whole universe of music is available.  Would it be interesting to add some of it to your local files when you're using Play Doctor?

Yes. 100%. Along with the option to discard a track if a local copy exists.

[drmimosa]

I would encourage partnering with a lossless audio streaming service such as Naxos HD or Tidal. Naxos lossless streaming sounds fantastic (http://www.classicsonlinehd.com/), I haven't tried Tidal but reports are good.

Even Spotify's 320k OGG compression algorithm (which I personally think bumps the bass and/or volume up with dsp pre-compression) doesn't hold a candle to a local FLAC collection played through JRiver.

[drmimosa]

Don't get fixated on whether it's Tidal or whether it costs money. 

Imagine that the whole universe of music is available.  Would it be interesting to add some of it to your local files when you're using Play Doctor?

The answer is YES!

[magnust]

...
it might be very popular (even with my wife) if you can manage to access someone's API that does free ad-supported streaming.

A killer app with Spotify integration like that!

[)p(]

Don't get fixated on whether it's Tidal or whether it costs money.  

Imagine that the whole universe of music is available.  Would it be interesting to add some of it to your local files when you're using Play Doctor

I think this idea will mostly be interesting to users that are not interested in a full on demand subscription. It gives them a great discover and customized radio option for less then a full subscription.

Because I already use a paid subscription service I think it's less interesting for me. I would like to see this radio like service integrated with the ability to add tracks and albums from a service to my local library. If I rmember correctly the performer store has already some of that functionality. A seamless integration of my local library with my streaming library is the only thing that I really miss in my current listening behavior.

[Castius]

Yes i'm interested.

I used to use the last.fm feature with play doctor.
I currently use google music as i canceled last.fm after they merged with spotify.

[glynor]

The offset thing isn't relevant here.

I'm going to dig up my old post and merge some of these comments into it.

Edit: Done.  See here for comments about the Ratings system and how it interacts with Play Doctor:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95381.0

[AndrewFG]

Personally I think Play Doctor is a brilliant feature. Many thanks to JRiver for this. But its just fine as it is, and I don't need any new features..

[TCube]

Did I get it right ?

- Merging catalog (16 M x 2 ... or more)
- Mixing Hi Def Tracks (320 and Flac)
- Free web radio like
- Paying Monthly Fee to buy
- International access
- Interfaced directly Play Doc
- Accessible from mobiles
- Sharp engine research between local/distant lib.
- Pertinent tags
.../...

Where do I sign ?
TC

[bunglemebaby]

Just adding my late 2 cents to this. When I tried out the Performer Store (and last.fm play dr) streaming previously the two biggest reasons that I stayed away were audio quality (particularly compared to my own lossless library) and less than stellar discovery and user interface (compare to Spotify and similar services here). The former is really the important one; I've come to accept UX trade offs when using MC.

So, I'd say the big thing for me is that the streaming service used needs to be of high audio fidelity, preferably lossless but at least on par with Spotify and Google Play Music (@320kbps mp3). There are a few lossless services mentioned already and I've seen Deezer Elite getting some attention recently (they seem to be partnering with other companies as well). The other big consideration is library size. A streaming service is useless if I can't find at least ~75% of what I'm looking for on it. I've found that that is about where Spotify and Google land in terms of album availability, which makes them both relatively useful.

Excited to see what this produces...